azstar
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Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 12:42 am

Can small carriers like YX and F9 survive in this environment? Are their routes worth anything to any other carrier?

[Edited 2005-05-17 17:49:26]
 
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solnabo
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 12:48 am

Boutique Carriers, wth is that??

Micke/SE  Confused
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doug_or
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 12:51 am

did you mean worth anything?


Anyway, I don't really think F9 qulaifies. They are a small hub and spoke carrier. They offer very good service (for an all econ product), a good network, and reasonable prices.

I'm personaly surprised YX is still around, though I wish them the best.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
azstar
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 12:52 am

My definition... quality little airlines with limited resources that can only appeal to a select market population.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 1:05 am

I believe YX falls into this category though Frontier is more of a true hub and spoke, LCC that knows its market and is growing and going after it. YX like others have said I am really surprised they are still around....
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
worldxplorer
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 1:13 am

I would not call F9 a "boutique" carrier. They are a solid LCC and have done well in the DEN market. As long as they stay focused and stop trying to expand with focus cities such as LAX (as done in the past), they will be just fine.

WorldXplorer
 
FA4B6
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 1:13 am

man would I LOVE to see an E170 or E190 in YX colors. I think the new E-jets would be a perfect match for YX and their service.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 4):
LCC that knows its market and is growing and going after it.

One could argue that their LAX and CUN expansions indicate otherwise....
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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mariner
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
One could argue that their LAX and CUN expansions indicate otherwise....

One could also argue that wehile LAX was certainly a mistake, the then surging price of oil had much to do with that.

However, if you want to argue that CUN has not been a huge success for Frontier you're on your own.

mariner
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toltommy
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 4:48 am

Let's take it back to what I think is the poster's original question. I think the poster may have been confused about F9's product, but now YX. Can an airline with a high level of service survive in today's market?

Short answer, yes. Is YX the carrier? No. I think there's a market for a high service level carrier. I think MKE isn't the market for such a carrier. I could see a carrier offering an all J class 737/717/319 in very dense, very high yield business markets. Certainly wouldn't be a hub/spoke carrier, strictly point to point. Start the lowest fare slightly above the current $299 one way cap of WN, top it out at $599 each way depending on market. With a simple J class product (maybe similar to domestic first in the 90's), PTV's and good service, I could see the premium biz traffic going for it. LH and KL are using Privat Air to start similar services from Europe. With the right business model, it could work. Those business travellers stuck on Song JFK-LAX, for example. You know in that market there has to be a good number of people willing to pay a little more to be away from the huddled masses...
 
FlapsDown20
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 12:45 pm

YX IS surviving in today's market. And with fuel prices decreasing daily lately, it will reach it's 2005 goal of cash neutrality. Had the company the cash to advertize nationwide, the planes would be overbooked consistently. As it is, the flights are near capacity many days, and we are overwhelmed on the ramp and at the counter with the increase in passenger loads. The addition of HOU from MKE and with all the MCI new cities served, there is an optomistic sense that the little air line that could is on it's way to recovery. I might remind all of you that YX has NEVER declared bankruptcy. Long may BLUEBIRD soar!
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):

One could argue that their LAX and CUN expansions indicate otherwise....

I was gonna make an argument here but...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
However, if you want to argue that CUN has not been a huge success for Frontier you're on your own.

I guess I don't need to...Eh, I'll do it anyway. Yes, the LAX expansion was new ground for Frontier, but they quickly saw it wasn't working and got out. Kept their losses to a minimum. CUN on the other hand, once the legacies saw how well F9 was doing in CUN, they wanted a piece of their own pie (FL, UA, DL coming to mind, and yes, FL has surpassed 1bn in revenue which qualifies them as a legacy).
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 6):
man would I LOVE to see an E170 or E190 in YX colors. I think the new E-jets would be a perfect match for YX and their service.

Q400 in a 64 seat config. 34-35" legroom on short hops would be the perfect compliment to the 717.
 
F9Fan
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 4:32 pm

It looks like F9 may be trying to do at PVR what they did at CUN. Pending DOT approval, and I don't see any reason they won't, they are going to add SLC-PVR and MCI-PVR. They entered into an agreement with Apple Vacations to use F9 whenever possible for their vacation packages, and Vacation Express to sell seats on the BNA-CUN route. Also, the state of Jalisco tourism office is probably providing a subsidy to F9 to help start these routes.

F9Fan
 
HPRamper
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 4:33 pm

Frontier...the next airline to join HP and US! Hurrah for the super-merger!
 
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mariner
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting F9fan (Reply 13):
It looks like F9 may be trying to do at PVR what they did at CUN.

Yes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see another flight to PVR from somewhere.

But I wonder if Los Cabos (SJD) or Mazatlan (MZT) will get point to point service?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
cloudboy
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Wed May 18, 2005 9:49 pm

If Midwest actually focused on their primary market - business travelers looking for something better than the LCC economy but not full blown business or first class, and had a route layout to match that market, then they would be a pretty strong carrier. At one point, it was only them and SouthWest that were posting a profit. But they listened to critics, started looking at going LCC, and now they are a schizophrenic company with no real marketing plan and for many people simply aren't a realistic option due to routing and availability.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
sideflare75
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Thu May 19, 2005 12:56 am

I think Midwest still does a good job of focusing on the business market. All the core business markets served out of MKE are still Signature Service as are all the markets out of MCI. It wasn't listening to critics that forced the changes to YX but pure economics. Nobody can make money flying people to MCO or LAS on a MD-80 with only 116 seats. They had to add seats to be able to compete on these routes. Judging by the loads it seems like it was a good choice. Is it too bad they had to change from what they once were? Of course. But if they hadn't, they wouldn't be here now. People flying to MCO or LAS don't care how big their seat is, they just want to get there.
 
alphascan
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Thu May 19, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 11):
and yes, FL has surpassed 1bn in revenue which qualifies them as a legacy

Actually DLKAPA, it qualifies them as a major. Just like WN and B6, FL is not a legacy. F9 will be joining the ranks of majors in the next couple of months.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
azstar
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Thu May 19, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 18):
F9 will be joining the ranks of majors in the next couple of months.

I think F9 is quite a ways away from becoming a major. You have to have $1B in sales, and the last article I read said that F9 sales were around $600M.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Can Boutique Carriers Like YX And F9 Survive?

Thu May 19, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
Frontier...the next airline to join HP and US! Hurrah for the super-merger!

More like hurrah for the super-suicide. F9 would be wise to steer clear of the HP/US merger debacle.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

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