AirIndiaOne
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Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 4:23 pm

This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"
Anybody knew about this piece of news?
Also note that the article mentions the flight no. as 409 and again as 145H later!

Here's the story
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tymnbalewne
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 4:25 pm

The article says it was flight AI145 with 409 pax onboard.

C.

[Edited 2005-05-19 09:26:08]
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PA006
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 4:27 pm

it is a flight with 409 passengers.
 
gamps
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 4:28 pm

I remember this from 2004. It was in some Indian newspapers as well. And if I remember correctly, Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked". This was just before AI started LAX operations and pilots were making some noise about extra pay for the hours they put or something. Not sure what happenned to the Captain, though I remember reading he was grounded.
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 4:55 pm

It 3was captain Chatterjee on BOM-CDG-EWR, I remember.. no excuse for this action - it was shocking!
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VictorTango
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 5:05 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 4):
It 3was captain Chatterjee on BOM-CDG-EWR, I remember.. no excuse for this action - it was shocking!

I remember this incident clearly. Heard that the captain would face disciplinary action. Any idea what happened?

Olly
 
a340roy
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 7:19 pm

remember this incident clearly. Heard that the captain would face disciplinary action. Any idea what happened

well, he is STILL commanding AI's 747-400's!!!!

roy!
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Thu May 19, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting Gamps (Reply 3):
And if I remember correctly, Captain said he was "tired" -

How could there be no Warnings for a Gear up Situation,Its difficult to believe.
Even the Transcript recordings dont tell much.
regds
MEL
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Ryanair!!!
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Fri May 20, 2005 12:26 am

The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.
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B742
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Fri May 20, 2005 12:30 am

Anyone know what the reg. was?

Was it a AI 744?

Rob!
 
AirIndiaOne
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Fri May 20, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting PA006 (Reply 2):
it is a flight with 409 passengers.

oops...mistake noted, overlooked the article.
"You don't have to be crazy to be in aviation, but it helps", JRD Tata
 
Thunderbird1
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:04 am

This is unbelievable.

Perhaps he was fully informed of what he was doing, and wasn't really intending to land. He may have wanted to do a low speed pass over the runway  Wink
 
VS74741R
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting AirIndiaOne (Thread starter):
This article talks about how a trainee ATC saved hundreds of lives when he spotted an Air India jumbo at short finals with its "gear down"

Don't most aircraft have their "gear down" on short finals  wink 
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vzlet
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:28 am

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WestWing
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:27 am

Reminds me of a CO 727 that nearly belly landed at ORD - the rear of the fuselage scraped the runway as the crew executed the go around. An AA pilot on the ground noticed and called in CO's lack of gear and the tower controller told the aircraft to go around. The CO crew, in post-incident interviews, stated that they had realised the gear issue themselves and had executed the go-around even before the controller's call.
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MKEdude
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Gamps (Reply 3):
Captain said he was "tired" - which some think was nothing but a ploy to extract more monies from AI management. I think final word was Air India pilots wanted to show the world that they are "overworked".

Inexcusable no matter what the reason. If this was an oversight than the pilot should be fired for incompetence. If this was on purpose than he should be jailed for endangering hundreds of passengers.
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AR385
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:16 am

It happened also to a CO DC-9 in IAH, where the crew, forgetting to connect some hydraulics or something (I don't know the works of a DC-9 maybe someone could help), landed without flaps, slats, or gear, and didn't realized it until they actually touched the ground. How it could happen is beyond me. The CVR recorded a pretty interesting conversation about tennis, though
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 8):
The GPWS has 6 modes and one of them is for a warning to chime when the plane gets too close to terrain without the gears... and the "whoop whoop" sounds are hard to miss.

Not just this, you´ll also have the oldfashioned landing configuration warning. Pull the throttles back to idle without having the gear out, you´ll get a loud annoying horn.

Jan
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WestWing
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:55 am

Some more info at this link on the the website that Vzlet originally posted.

It seems the a/c was at 600 feet, which perhaps explains why the GPWS annunciator wasn't whooping ?

By the way does 600 ft at "half-mile" away sound correct ? 12 degree slope ?
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 18):
By the way does 600 ft at "half-mile" away sound correct ? 12 degree slope ?

Is the altitude AGL (Above Ground Level) or MSL (Mean Sea Level)? 600' AGL at 1/2 mile is very high, but if the airport is 300' above sea level, than the 600' MSL is 300' AGL, so that is right. At 1/2 mile you are about 20 seconds from touch down. The normal glide slope is about 3 degrees or 15' per second rate of decent (landing gear are normally stressed at 25' per second sink rate at the max landing weight). So 15' X 20 seconds is 300' AGL, that is the altitude he should have been at for 1/2 mile from touchdown.

A 12 degree slope? No, I wouldn't want that. That is a sink rate of 60' per second. At 300' at 1/2 mile (where you should be), you would hit the ground in 5 seconds, and about 4,000' short of the runway threshold. That would hurt a lot. Not to mention a very broken up airplane. In other words, you have crashed.
 
WestWing
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 7:11 am

KC135TopBoom:

Thanks for the explanation.

I looked up the EWR runway threshold elevations. They are ~ 10 feet.

If the GPWS begins complaining only at 500 ft AGL (without gear down and locked) this could explain why the crew had not realised yet. So 600 AGL could be correct. But 600 AGL seems inconsistent with the half-mile away (and a 3 degree glideslope), so they may have been further away than that.

Isn't there a separate gear warning horn which should also have sounded because position of flaps and throttle ? Presumably the crew had muted this. [EDIT: Sorry, just noticed that MD11Engineer already mentioned this]

[Edited 2005-05-21 00:27:26]
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Thunderbird1
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 7:19 am

To me, one of the most amazing parts about this story is the curt and matter of fact way in which the pilot acknowledged the warning that saved his hide: "Air India 145". No thank you or acknowledgement or anything. This could have been a major disaster--the flight was full.
 
AR385
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 7:42 am

Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.
 
AvionicMech
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain, like the slope of a mountain? I'm thinking about the Mount Erebus crash, or the AA in Cali.
Thanks.

The standard GPWS would not give you a very good warning if the ground infront of you is rapidly rising or worse still if it a cliff face you would get no warning because all the system really does is look at your configuration of flaps and gear and your rad alt closure rate basically. This is the reason for the recent mandatory installation of the Enhanced GPWS, as this has a terrain database in its memory and knows your position, usually from a GPS input, so can tell you a lot earlier if you are getting too close to that big mountain ahead.

Back to the Air India 747,

There are 6 basic modes for the basic GPWS, the one that would have been shouting at the crew would have been mode 4a I think. But for the warnings to go off you have to be below 500 Ft I think the figure is, so if they were in fact at 600ft as mentioned above they would not have had any warnings from the GWPS system.
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:01 pm

Can someone explain to me how does the GPWS works when the plane is going above rapidly rising terrain,...

The GPWS utilises this equipment known as the "Radio Altimeter" that sends out pulses of signals and uses the time it takes to return to determine the height of the aircraft. This is then incorporated into the various modes of the GPWS.

The 6 modes that I mentioned all have different parameters to trigger the warning and the warning of terrain with gears up is mode 4A or 4B (cannot remember exactly). And that calls for a warning chime at 500ft.

Hope this explains...
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:10 pm

Quoting Thunderbird1 (Reply 21):
To me, one of the most amazing parts about this story is the curt and matter of fact way in which the pilot acknowledged the warning that saved his hide: "Air India 145". No thank you or acknowledgement or anything.

Was Thinking of the same  Smile
regds
MEL
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VictorTango
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting Thunderbird1 (Reply 21):
To me, one of the most amazing parts about this story is the curt and matter of fact way in which the pilot acknowledged the warning that saved his hide: "Air India 145". No thank you or acknowledgement or anything.

 laughing  C'mon how could you forget! The poor fellow said he was 'tired'  tired .

Or maybe he was too sleepy  zzz 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sat May 21, 2005 8:46 pm

Still no Explanation on Why no Warning.
regds
MEL
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AvionicMech
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Sun May 22, 2005 5:35 am

The reason there may have been no warning was possibly that the aircraft was not low enough for the GPWS system to kick out a shout at the crew of 'too low gear' because as I mentioned above you need to be below 500ft.

Avionic Mech
 
stealthpilot
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:37 am

can anyone confirm that the captain is still in command? that is.... i cant think of the right words for it....disgracefull, shocking, dangerous!! my god AI is still letting him fly. blame the F/O as well, what were they discussing duruing the decent?? that recording left me speechless.
-Nikhil
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B747-437B
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 29):
can anyone confirm that the captain is still in command?

AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 28):
The reason there may have been no warning was possibly that the aircraft was not low enough for the GPWS system to kick out a shout at the crew of 'too low gear' because as I mentioned above you need to be below 500ft

What about L/G Indications & Horns [not GPWS warnings].
regds
MEL
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Thunderbird1
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 12:30 am

AFAIK, he was grounded and is now a simulator training pilot

If that's true, what a wasted investment for AI. From 747 commander to simulator training staff.

Anyway, he deserves it.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 12:36 am

You all sound shocked...? It's actually a pretty common event that ATC corrects or addresses an issue like that.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 33):
You all sound shocked...? It's actually a pretty common event that ATC corrects or addresses an issue like that.

I think the "Shocking" refers to the Gear up Situation rather than the ATC intervention  Smile
regds
MEL
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rocketman742
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:19 am

Its all very easy to sit back and kick the pilots ass. The pilot who was in command had upto 37 years of flying experience with well over 15000 hrs in the air and he is well known as a methodical,disciplined and a highly motivated pilot. Dont trash the guy if you dont know him. The real culprit in this fiasco is Air India management who has the DGCA in its pocket and has got them to increase its fdtl regulations just to serve its own purpose. AI got the DGCA to increase its FDTL from 30 hrs a week to 40 hrs a week then arm twisted them into letting 2 pilots fly from 8 hrs to 10 hrs it then threw money at the pilots to reduce their lay over in london from 48 hrs to just 24 hrs this after optg 10 hrs bom lon with just 2 pilots. The real culprit is NOT the pilot. The DGCA boss is a permanently grounded AI pilot who has had a bypass. AI illegally gave him a 2 year extension from 58 to 60 and so the DGCA employs the man. This man will be kicked out of the DGCA if AI cancelles his contract so AI has him by his balls. Whatever AI wants it gets done in the DGCA. Dont blame the pilot of AI 145 cos the real culprits sit in boardrooms at nariman point and in offices of the DGCA in delhi.
 
gopal
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 6:53 am

If the Pilot had not been warned in time , what would have been the consequences ? Would it have resulted in a major air disaster ? Could the pilot have attempted a last minute belly landing ?

Or had he received the "Whoop" "Whoop" warning at 500 feet would he have had enough time to lower the gear.
 
stealthpilot
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Rocketman742 (Reply 35):
Dont blame the pilot of AI 145 cos the real culprits sit in boardrooms

to an extent i agree with you. the pilots may be overworked and stressed, but the fact is he made a dangerous mistake. 40 years from now when i have 35 years of flight experience and i make a mistake, i will need to pay for it. im sure most people dont doubt the pilots abilities, or question his motivation. but this was a huge slip up. if an experiences pilot walks into the cockpit slightly drunk it IS his fault, furthermore his responsibility. he might be a very good captain, im not implying that he HAS to be fired, but certainly discipled.

-Nikhil
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jaysit
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:22 am

I spoke to a friend who is a BA pilot who said it takes about 3 seconds to lower the gear from when the 500 ft warning kicks in.

This whole incident has been blown out of proportion.
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soaringadi
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:10 pm

***"Captain said he was "tired"***

Now thats an excuse isn't it ?

Just wonder what kind of responsible guy would say that. Especially a guy with 409 lives in hand. This guy is worst than Prez Bush.
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mrniji
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting Soaringadi (Reply 39):
This guy is worst than Prez Bush.

You mean worse? - Well, Bush has the responsibility for a couple of more people  innocent  - what a good comparison, maybe you should measure him on a scale with Hitler, Saddam, Osama, Bush, Blair and Maria Johanna from Orleans
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KLM685
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
The CVR recorded a pretty interesting conversation about tennis, though

OMG that's the funniest thing I have ever read! I really can't imagine being that hard into a tennis conversation to actually forget to land the plane! For sure they continued to talk about it at court.
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AJ
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 3:19 pm

From memory on the -400 as soon as the flaps are set to 25 or 30 with the gear up you recieve a configuration warning that cannot be cancelled.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting AJ (Reply 42):
From memory on the -400 as soon as the flaps are set to 25 or 30 with the gear up you recieve a configuration warning that cannot be cancelled.

Which is why the Report seems confusing.
regds
MEL
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redflyer
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Tue May 24, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 28):
The reason there may have been no warning was possibly that the aircraft was not low enough for the GPWS system to kick out a shout at the crew of 'too low gear' because as I mentioned above you need to be below 500ft.

All this talk about aural warnings...If the crew was busy jaw-jacking, is it possible they may not have heard anything? I recall the Eastern L1011 that went down in the Florida Everglades back around 1972. The crew was consummed with a landing gear configuration light and apparently didn't notice the horn sound when the a/c left it's assigned altitude while on auto-pilot. The plane eventually flew itself into the swamps.

Despite all the safety systems, there's always the one exception that leads to disaster.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air India 747 Landing Without Gears?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 44):
Despite all the safety systems, there's always the one exception that leads to disaster.

Not one,But would say a chain of events occuring in a sequence leads to Accident.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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