norcal
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772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 7:53 am

More and more it is looking like the A350-900 will be a competitor to the 777-200 series. Which would be better/cheaper for Boeing to do? Lengthen the 787 to a -10 designation or lighten the 777-200?
 
kdeg00
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 9:21 am

Wouldn't it make more sense for Boeing to look at the gaps in the airbus line-up and tailor its product to fit those (and obviously vice versa for Airbus) than for each of them to target the same specific demographic and battle each other into unprofitibility?
 
gigneil
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 9:39 am

Boeing has already said they could apply 787 technology to the 777 with much success.

N
 
zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting NorCal (Thread starter):
More and more it is looking like the A350-900 will be a competitor to the 777-200 series. Which would be better/cheaper for Boeing to do? Lengthen the 787 to a -10 designation or lighten the 777-200?

A B787-10 would outperform the B777-200ER in every respect and be much less expensive, however, it could not match the performance of the B777-200LR. Lightening the B777-200LR, B777-300, B777-300ER, and B777F would make a lot of sense. Until we see more definite specifications for the A350, it's difficult to definitively answer your question.

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it make more sense for Boeing to look at the gaps in the airbus line-up and tailor its product to fit those (and obviously vice versa for Airbus) than for each of them to target the same specific demographic and battle each other into unprofitibility?

Yes, of course. However, the only large gap in either product line is between the A340-600 and the A380-800. Hence the B747Adv.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
Boeing has already said they could apply 787 technology to the 777 with much success.

Then what are they waiting for?
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
na
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 11:46 pm

If Boeing can keep its promises with the 787 then in the end the 787 top-model will kill the 772. It makes more sense regarding Boeings future plan of having just 3 aircraft families. They need something bigger than the 777, so they need to build a joint 777/747 replacement sooner or later (depending on wether the 747 Adv. comes). And "later" means before 2020.
 
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Then what are they waiting for?

The 777-200, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 777-200LR, 777F have evolved into a six member family where sales of one will assist sales of another. (AF, for example, has bought the 777-200ER, 777-300ER, 777F and EK has bought the 777-200, 777-200ER, 777-300ER.) Replace the 772ER with a 787 and you lose a lot of that commonality.

(Of course, you are also building up 787 commonality across a putative family but it's still a bit early for that.)
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Then what are they waiting for?

The engines, technology proving and time for some freed up engineers.

Imagine a 10-15% range increase on the 777-200LR.... Damn.

10,000-11,000 mile range. Damn Damn...That's a 22-24 hour flight.

[Edited 2005-05-20 16:54:24]
 
Ken777
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Fri May 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Stretching the 787 might make sense for the short term as it allows Boeing to focus on the 737 line as the next "E" program - lots of volume there.

Boeing is actually fortunate with their first composite effort being the 787 as it fits nicely between the 737 and 777, allowing technology developed to be efficiently moved up and down to both programs.
 
zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
They need something bigger than the 777, so they need to build a joint 777/747 replacement sooner or later (depending on wether the 747 Adv. comes).

I take it you mean that only the timing depends on whether or not the B747Adv comes. Boeing will need to build a B777-300/B747 replacement regardless.

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
The 777-200, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 777-200LR, 777F have evolved into a six member family where sales of one will assist sales of another.

However, the base B777-200 is effectively dead. Has anyone ordered it since UA ordered 6 circa 1997? It's really a five member family in my opinion.

(BTW, UA placed that order with the hope that Boeing would build them six B777-200ERs that were derated on paper and could be upgraded later. Boeing built A-market B777-200s for them.)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
Imagine a 10-15% range increase on the 777-200LR.... Damn.

A B777-200LR with 15% more range would connect every city pair on the planet.
 
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:53 am

2 years back everybody was convinced Airbus could do nothing on the 7e7 because they had their hands full on the A380.

Same folks are now suggesting (yet to be developed) 787 technology can easily & simultaneously be implemented on the 777 (and 744 / 737 successors for that matter).

Come on guys ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
However, the base B777-200 is effectively dead. Has anyone ordered it since UA ordered 6 circa 1997? It's really a five member family in my opinion.

True enough but one thing leads to another. There would be no 747ADV now without the -400, -300, -200 and -100. And odd orders do pop up now and again. JAS ordered more PAX A300-600s not long ago and CO revived the moribund 767-200ER line.
 
N60659
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Then what are they waiting for?

You have to consider that the oldest 777 is only 10 years old. Even if Boeing were to introduce a replacement for EIS in 2010-2011, the oldest 777 will still only be 15 years old.

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
EK has bought the 777-200, 777-200ER, 777-300ER

Not to forget the 777-300 as well.

-N60659
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
Imagine a 10-15% range increase on the 777-200LR.... Damn.

The 777-200LR only really needs a small range extension. It would be better served by having better fuel efficiency, which would be the other benefit.
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zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 12):

You have to consider that the oldest 777 is only 10 years old. Even if Boeing were to introduce a replacement for EIS in 2010-2011, the oldest 777 will still only be 15 years old.

EIS for a B787-10 that would replace the B777-200ER would not be before 2012. EIS for a B777-300/B747 replacement would probably not be before 2014 if the B747Adv does not go forward and perhaps 2020 if the B747Adv does go forward. This would depend in large part on the availability of more powerful engines. Only a short-range (e.g. 4000-5000nm), smaller winged (ala B787-3) version could use the GE-90s. A long-range (e.g. 10000nm), larger winged version would need physically larger engines producing perhaps 135K lbs of thrust.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 13):
The 777-200LR only really needs a small range extension. It would be better served by having better fuel efficiency, which would be the other benefit.

I think the longest market that would be commercially viable for a reduced OEW B777-200LR would be AKL-LHR. Because that's only about 200km further eastbound than westbound, a 10% improvement in range would more than suffice. SYD-LHR might be more challenging than AKL-LHR.

There are three ways to improve the fuel efficiency:
1) make the engines more efficient,
2) reduce the aerodynamic drag, or
3) reduce the weight (reduces induced drag).
The greatest opportunity here lies with reducing the weight.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 12):
You have to consider that the oldest 777 is only 10 years old. Even if Boeing were to introduce a replacement for EIS in 2010-2011, the oldest 777 will still only be 15 years old.


for singapore airlines a 10 year old a/c is actually quite old! i've mentioned this on a different thread, that in the near future sq will most likely start to look to replace our oldest 772ers.
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cslusarc
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:09 am

I think the future 787-10 should be renamed 787-X (where X is the roman numeral for 10).
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 13):
The 777-200LR only really needs a small range extension. It would be better served by having better fuel efficiency, which would be the other benefit.

Where do you think that range addition comes from?

It's called fuel efficiency.
 
zoom1018
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 11:40 am

I think Boeing would eventually apply 787's advanced technologies on 777s... and that would make the T7 lighter and even more efficient Big grin
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Same folks are now suggesting (yet to be developed) 787 technology can easily & simultaneously be implemented on the 777 (and 744 / 737 successors for that matter).

Come on guys ..

First, your nebulous alegations to these "same folks" aside, it makes perfect sense: Boeing has spent almost 6 years developing the skills set being applied to the 787. Once a learning curve has been established, it will take much less time for Boeing to apply these technologies to other products than it will for Airbus to develop them from square one.

Second, yet to be developed? Design freeze is weeks away and the first example will begin construction in less than 12 months. Perhaps we have different definitons of "developed" but there's nothing paper about the 787.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
Has anyone ordered it since UA ordered 6 circa 1997?

Yes... CX ordered one in 2003, and ANA ordered three in 2001

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Then what are they waiting for?

B-market demand isn't red hot right now. Nearly all of the DC-10, L1011, 742, and older generation long-haulers have been replaced. The next time we will see a boom of 300-seaters as big as we saw between 1997-2000 is when the 772ER is up for replacment, and the oldest 772ER is only 8 years old.

Timing is everything: if, hypothetically, the bulk of 772ER replacement doesn't come until 2020, the A350 is a rather old product to consider for long-term fleet planning. Boeing has options, so it behooves the to watch and see what happens.
 
zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
B-market demand isn't red hot right now. Nearly all of the DC-10, L1011, 742, and older generation long-haulers have been replaced. The next time we will see a boom of 300-seaters as big as we saw between 1997-2000 is when the 772ER is up for replacment, and the oldest 772ER is only 8 years old.

I agree that B-market demand isn't red hot right now, however, there is demand. Would you agree that a B787-10 (stretch of the B787-9 to B777-200 seating capacity) would be more profitable for Boeing than the B777-200ER and that development costs would be less than $1B?
 
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:03 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
Has anyone ordered it since UA ordered 6 circa 1997?

Yes... CX ordered one in 2003, and ANA ordered three in 2001

No. A quick look at Boeing's website would have given you the answer. CX ordered one (actually, they took the original production aircraft after Boeing had finished with it) in May 2000. ANA ordered three in December 2001. That was the last order for 777-200s. And UA's order was for 6 in April 1998.
 
atmx2000
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Would you agree that a B787-10 (stretch of the B787-9 to B777-200 seating capacity) would be more profitable for Boeing than the B777-200ER and that development costs would be less than $1B?

I expect we will have to see the 787-8 and -9 in the air before we will know whether how much of an effort a -10 will require.
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tinpusher007
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 7:14 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
There are three ways to improve the fuel efficiency:
1) make the engines more efficient,
2) reduce the aerodynamic drag, or
3) reduce the weight (reduces induced drag).
The greatest opportunity here lies with reducing the weight.

1 and 2 are good points....however with number 3, reducing weight will reduce fuel burn more than anything else. Induced drag is a byproduct of lift, not weight.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
StickShaker
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sat May 21, 2005 8:37 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The next time we will see a boom of 300-seaters as big as we saw between 1997-2000 is when the 772ER is up for replacment, and the oldest 772ER is only 8 years old.
Timing is everything: if, hypothetically, the bulk of 772ER replacement doesn't come until 2020

In 2010 these (772ER) aircraft will be 13 years old. No doubt many of the airframes will have another 10 to 15 years left in them but the replacement age of aircraft is also influenced by the type of financing involved and tax and depreciation issues. Many airlines lease their aircraft and will roll over their aircraft after around 15 years rather than the 25 or more years that the aircraft will last. I mention the tax thing as countries such as Singapore have very generous depreciation allowances for capital items such as aircraft. This is why Singapore Airlines replaces its aircraft at such an early age - and they will replace their 772ER's long before 2020. Interesting how the tax legislation of a small country such as Singapore can be so beneficial to companies like Airbus and Boeing.
There is also the issue of market growth to consider. Neither manufacturer is expecting the market to remain static for the next 10-20 years - both are forecasting significant growth.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Would you agree that a B787-10 (stretch of the B787-9 to B777-200 seating capacity) would be more profitable for Boeing than the B777-200ER and that development costs would be less than $1B?

If the 787-10 can use the existing 787 wing then it may be plausible at that cost. If it requires a new wing then the R&D costs will increase significantly.
It also depends on whether Boeing wants to duplicate the entire mission profile of the 772ER with all its cargo hauling capabilities at maximum range or if they simply want to match the capabilities of the A359.

The likelihood of any 787-10 launch will depend on the A359 sales success in the next 3-4 years. Wouldn't expect any decision sooner than that.


Cheers,
StickShaker
 
zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 24):

If the 787-10 can use the existing 787 wing then it may be plausible at that cost.

All the reports I'm hearing are that the B787-8/9 wing can be used for a B787-10 (B777-200ER capacity) stretch, but that the B787-3 wing can support a stretch only up to the B787-9's size.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 24):

The likelihood of any 787-10 launch will depend on the A359 sales success in the next 3-4 years. Wouldn't expect any decision sooner than that.

There is an argument for proceeding with a B787-10 regardless of what happens with the A350-900. It goes like this. If a B787-10 can perform all or nearly all the missions of a B777-200ER at substantially lower cost, then it would be more valuable to the airlines than the B777-200ER. If the manufacturing costs of the B787 are significantly lower than those of the B777 (as widely reported), then Boeing would make a lot more money selling B787-10s than it would selling B777-200ERs.
 
atmx2000
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 24):
This is why Singapore Airlines replaces its aircraft at such an early age - and they will replace their 772ER's long before 2020.



Quoting StickShaker (Reply 24):
Interesting how the tax legislation of a small country such as Singapore can be so beneficial to companies like Airbus and Boeing.

They will always have the O&D market to/from Singapore, but I wonder if they will keep their strong connecting traffic business and position as the SE Asia hub as smaller, longer range aircraft hit the market and as the airlines of South and South East Asia become larger and start to provide more and better service. SQ may have to get more out of their planes in the future.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
All the reports I'm hearing are that the B787-8/9 wing can be used for a B787-10 (B777-200ER capacity) stretch, but that the B787-3 wing can support a stretch only up to the B787-9's size

Interesting, where did you hear this from?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
If a B787-10 can perform all or nearly all the missions of a B777-200ER at substantially lower cost, then it would be more valuable to the airlines than the B777-200ER. If the manufacturing costs of the B787 are significantly lower than those of the B777 (as widely reported), then Boeing would make a lot more money selling B787-10s than it would selling B777-200ERs.

I think a 787-10 would be extremely attractive to airlines that don't expect to fly planes with more than around 300pax in a 3-class config, like many of the US airlines. They could use the 787-8 to 787-10 to cover their long haul requirements and keep their fleet complexity down. But I also think a lighter 777-200 could be attractive to airlines that fly larger aircraft like the 777-300 or a future 777-400. I wonder if there is strong enough case for Boeing to develop both. If the development costs are low enough and can be spread across a multisized model family there might be a case for it.
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singaporegirl
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 24):
I mention the tax thing as countries such as Singapore have very generous depreciation allowances for capital items such as aircraft. This is why Singapore Airlines replaces its aircraft at such an early age - and they will replace their 772ER's long before 2020.

i concur with stickshaker. i wouldn't be sursprised at all if we're going to start looking for a replacement of our 772ers in 2 years time. by 2007 our oldest 772s are going to be 10 years old, and as i've mentioned earlier that for us a 10 year old a/c is considered to be quite old. without a doubt both airbus and boeing are aware of this.
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zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
Interesting, where did you hear this from?

Industry sources. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I would never burn a source. I do think my sources are credible, but I wouldn't bet a finger on it.

Note that Boeing increased the wingspan of the B787-8/9 rather late in the process. I'm told this was to accomodate a possible future B787-10. My sense is that Boeing doesn't over engineer their aircraft unless they have fairly firm intentions.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
I think a 787-10 would be extremely attractive to airlines that don't expect to fly planes with more than around 300pax in a 3-class config, like many of the US airlines. They could use the 787-8 to 787-10 to cover their long haul requirements and keep their fleet complexity down. But I also think a lighter 777-200 could be attractive to airlines that fly larger aircraft like the 777-300 or a future 777-400. I wonder if there is strong enough case for Boeing to develop both. If the development costs are low enough and can be spread across a multisized model family there might be a case for it.

If Boeing produce the B747Adv, then I think lightening the B777 makes a lot of sense -- particularly for the B777-200LR and B777-300ER. A lightened structure also makes a B777-400 more plausible because the same wing could be used and additional langing gear wheels could probably be avoided. There would still be issues with landing gear height and with turning radii on taxiways.

If Boeing don't produce the B747Adv, then I think Boeing will need to produce an all-new replacement for the B777-300 and B747 as quickly as possible -- perhaps before replacing the B737NG. In that case, it probably wouldn't make sense to invest in lightening the B777.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 27):
i wouldn't be sursprised at all if we're going to start looking for a replacement of our 772ers in 2 years time.

Perfect timing for a B787-10. The B787 is really quite a good fit for SQ. B787-3 would reduce their operating costs on regional routes. The B787-8 could open up profitable daily service to several European cities that SQ cannot profitably serve with their current fleet and a B787-10 could replace their B777-200s and B777-200ERs.
 
lehpron
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
However, the only large gap in either product line is between the A340-600 and the A380-800. Hence the B747Adv.

This gap was known before A3XX was launched, did 787's technology inspire 747Adv? I would have thought that even the SC program could have set off a few lightbulbs @ Boeing...guess not.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
Imagine a 10-15% range increase on the 777-200LR.... Damn.

10,000-11,000 mile range. Damn Damn...That's a 22-24 hour flight.

Hell no! Convenience aside, that is too long. Boeing should bring SC back, in my humblest opinion, the concept still makes sense. A 10-15% increase in fuel burn on an E-engine can loosely translate to a 4.8-7.2% increase in speed with non E-engine range, including the effects of compressibility. Cruise at M0.93 instead of M0.86, how you like them apples? Big grin

Quoting N60659 (Reply 12):
You have to consider that the oldest 777 is only 10 years old.

The first flight was June of 1994, I'd say 11 years.  Wink

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
larger winged version would need physically larger engines producing perhaps 135K lbs of thrust.

It doesn't have to be physically bigger, just a larger bypass ratio which at no cost in fuel increases thrust. This can be done by increasing main fan blade chord, for one.

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 18):
I think Boeing would eventually apply 787's advanced technologies on 777s... and that would make the T7 lighter and even more efficient

I'm not an expert on materials, but I doubt converting from a duraluminum base to composites would be the least of their worries.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
zvezda
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Sun May 22, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 29):
did 787's technology inspire 747Adv?

That the B747Adv can make use of the B787's engines is the key to the B747Adv's efficiency improvements with minimal development cost. The stretch alone would not have been enough. A new wing would have been too expensive.
 
N60659
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 29):
Quoting N60659 (Reply 12):
You have to consider that the oldest 777 is only 10 years old.

The first flight was June of 1994, I'd say 11 years.

Yes, but the first EIS of the 777 was in 1995, which makes it 10 years of airline service.

-N60659
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gigneil
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Then what are they waiting for?

Time, mostly. They need to finish developing the 787 before they can have technology to apply to the 772.

Widebodyphotog provided details a few months back of how Boeing could reduce the weight of the 777-200ER by a significant amount by integrating composites into primary structures.

N
 
N60659
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
Widebodyphotog provided details a few months back of how Boeing could reduce the weight of the 777-200ER by a significant amount by integrating composites into primary structures.

For those of us that are "search challenged" here is the thread Neil refers to:

RE: The Official 777-200LR Rollout Thread! (by Widebodyphotog Feb 17 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Look at replies 255, 259 and 262.

Very nice analysis by Widebodyphotog. Based on the information cited by him, the A350 could have an uphill battle against the 777-200ER using 787 composite technology.

-N60659

[Edited 2005-05-23 19:50:13]
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kaitak
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 2:48 am

Looking at this from a purely strategic viewpoint (i.e Boeing's), I'm not sure what it's doing. The 350 hasn't been a stellar seller so far, with only 10 under its belt. If it reeled in EK, it would get a major boost, as well as an airline that should have bought the 787. So, it's worried that a stretched 787-9 (which we'll call a -10), will eat into the bottom end of the 772 market, but by 2010-11, the 777 will be around 15 years old. EK's oldest aircraft will be around 12 years old. Now, EK is going to replace these, one way or another, but more importantly, the 772 will one day be "old hat", just as the 767 and the 747 are now. It happens; so turns the world. Now, Boeing has to think forward.

Does it want to surrender a potentially very lucrative customer to Airbus? I don't think so. In fact, I think this is a very "down to the wire" game of poker and I think that with a splash of cold water, Boeing could still take this one. The A350 is still undefined (we still don't know what width it will be) and even with this uncertainty, it's still widely believed that the 789 will be a better cargo carrier.

Does it come down to range? Could the 787-10 match the 359 on range? Alternatively, can't EK use its 777LRs on routes which the 787-10 can't do. Can't Boeing point out the fact that as part of this deal, EK is getting rid of another Airbus type, one which didn't meet its expectations?
 
beauing
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 3:00 am

Isn't all this talk about a 787-10 a bit premature since Boeing has said nothing about such a critter?
 
N60659
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 34):
Looking at this from a purely strategic viewpoint (i.e Boeing's),

I see Boeing's potential strategy being two-pronged:
(1) Develop a lighter OEW version of the 777-200ER either keeping the MTOW the same or increasing it slightly. If this option were available to airlines around 2010 and beyond, it would address carriers that place an emphasis on youthful fleets (like SQ). Type ratings, systems and qualifications would not have to significantly change for the 772ER replaced by such an aircraft.
(2) Develop a "787-10" which would truly be a lower end 772/772ER replacement which could be available post 2013. This would provide the rest of the early 777 customers the opportunity to replace their 777 fleets (which by then would be 18-20 years old).
Both these projects economical upgrades to existing lines and, together, could have the potential of pressuring A350 sales.

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gigneil
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RE: 772NG Or 787-10 To Compete With A350-900?

Tue May 24, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 35):
Isn't all this talk about a 787-10 a bit premature since Boeing has said nothing about such a critter?

I agree with that fully.

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