AV8AJET
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HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 1:53 pm

Now with this merger happening I would assume the end is near for the BA LHR-PHX-LHR flights with no feed to HP. That will be a sad sight to see BA leaving our great city of PHX. Would HP/US also lose the VS codeshare also? I would assume so...many changes to come. What are your thoughts on the possibility of keeping the London flights to PHX?
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
flyboyaz
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 1:57 pm

Someone asked if we had plans to start European service after the merger. The answer was no. There isn't high enough demand for the service. They did not anticipate any changes with the current codeshare. However if we remain in the Star....and BA is OneWorld....who knows what will happen. If by chance BA decided to pull out...then they might consider it.
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Coronado990
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 1:58 pm

I would think HP/US would want this route then.
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AV8AJET
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 2:03 pm

I would think HP/US would want this route then.

If BA did drop the route and HP/US wanted it, it would have to return to the PHX-LGW that BA originally started. We'll see...
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 3:13 pm

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 1):
Someone asked if we had plans to start European service after the merger. The answer was no. There isn't high enough demand for the service. They did not anticipate any changes with the current codeshare. However if we remain in the Star....and BA is OneWorld....who knows what will happen. If by chance BA decided to pull out...then they might consider it.

I would have to think that the British Airways PHX-LHR codeshare would remain. After all, US Airways and Qantas have a mileage agreement (though I don't believe a codeshare agreement, I may be wrong, I'm not sure if US codeshares on QF's LAX-AKL/BNE/MEL/SYD routes, or if QF codeshares on US' LAX-CLT/PHL/PIT routes), and last I checked, Qantas was in oneWorld and US Airways in Star Alliance.
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Sydscott
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 3:34 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 4):
Qantas was in oneWorld and US Airways in Star Alliance.

You used to be able to earn QF frequent flyer points on some US Airways services but there is no codeshare arrangement. HP on the other hand and QF have an agreement for service through to Phoenix and Vancouver, (or is it Edmonton), I cant remember off the top of my head. But you dont see a HP code on QF services to Australia.
 
sllevin
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 4:12 pm

Question: Could UA operate PHX-LHR?

That would certainly be the ideal, if Bermuda II allows it.

Steve
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 4:39 pm

No, UA could not operate PHX-LHR nonstop. PHX is not one of the designated Bermuda II gateways. BA is able to service LHR from PHX because it is a British carrier and is allowed to operate to US cities from LHR that have more than a certain amount of passengers and if there is no US carrier on the route. Hence, why BA was able to move DEN, SAN and PHX from LGW to LHR, but not DFW, IAH and ATL. I assume that if US started LGW-PHX that BA would have to move the route back to LGW.
 
Trvlr
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 5:04 pm

Interesting topic; I and others were discussing this exact question in another thread.

It is my personal opinion that the BA codeshare is history if the merger goes through. The new USAirways will be an integral part of the Star Alliance, and the current BA/HP codeshare is a little too close for there to not to be some conflict of interest issues.

So, alas, I think this spells the end of PHX-LHR on BA. They will not be able to sustain a nonstop flight without the valuable HP feed. Nevertheless, I don't believe that transatlantic service will disappear from PHX. I think it is entirely possible that we will see US mainline or Lufthansa (re)start flights to Frankfurt. There has got to be more than enough traffic connecting through these two hubs to make one, or even several, flights profitable.

Aaron G.
 
commavia
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Fri May 20, 2005 9:21 pm

I don't know why BA still has the HP codeshare in the first place. Every single city that BA codeshares to via HP in PHX, with the exceptions of Bakersfield, CA and Flagstaff, AZ, could be reached via AA at their hubs. There is no reason, at least that I can see, to keep the codeshare going except perhaps if the LHR-PHX flight depends on the codeshares to be profitable. But, if the HP codeshare was phased out, couldn't they just downgauge to a 777 and still fill the plane? I would think PHX has enough demand on its own to fill a 777 to London.
 
AV8AJET
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 3:29 am

What about the cargo traffic between LHR-PHX could that also help to keep the route alive? A possible downgrade to the 772 or 763 like "Commavia" was saying could be the answer. Also even though I wish the current service was daily maybe BA could reduce to 3X or 4X weekly service to keep the flight.
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rj777
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 4:48 am

Of course, if BA Gets the 777LR, they wouldn't need the codeshare. They could do a direct nonstop.
 
MAH4546
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 4:54 am

Phoenix can hold a daily (well, 6x weekly) service to London on it's own. I doubt the America West codeshare is hugely crucial to suporting the service.
a.
 
Trvlr
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 5:06 am

AV8AJET: That's a good point--it is said that SAN's service didn't work because the 777 had to take a cargo weight penalty; since PHX doesn't have this problem, perhaps BA could make a go of it relying on cargo. Nevertheless, I'm still not very optimistic if they can't get some sort of feed.

Aaron G.
 
DCAYOW
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 5:11 am

SAN contributes sometimes up to 50 pax on the PHX-LHR flight, this is why HP has a 757 running between SAN-PHX to connect to it.

If HP/US join STAR - the BA flight is probably history. However, it opens up opportunities as well like a return of LH.
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doug_or
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Phoenix can hold a daily (well, 6x weekly) service to London on it's own. I doubt the America West codeshare is hugely crucial to suporting the service.

I agree. In addiation, It would seem BA could do better than HP/US on the route if the code share was termianted because BA has more logical feed at either LHR or LGW than HP does @ PHX.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 4):
I would have to think that the British Airways PHX-LHR codeshare would remain. After all, US Airways and Qantas have a mileage agreement (though I don't believe a codeshare agreement, I may be wrong, I'm not sure if US codeshares on QF's LAX-AKL/BNE/MEL/SYD routes, or if QF codeshares on US' LAX-CLT/PHL/PIT routes), and last I checked, Qantas was in oneWorld and US Airways in Star Alliance.

I'm thinking the same thing. I can't see HP giving up the BA relationship irregardless of Star membership. I think Doug knows how upset some would be with the loss of such a quality partner. I think LH should look at establishing a codeshare out of LAS.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
expressjetphx
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 7:02 am

If the BA codeshare was ended, the new US could consider bringing LH back into the PHX market, considering they're in Star. From what I understand, load factors weren't a problem for the LH flights, it was yields (i.e. too many pax paying discount fares & sitting in economy), so maybe a codeshare could help bring in more premium pax for LH. And BA could always drop down to a 763ER or 772 and just fly the route on its own.
 
aussiestu
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 7:05 am

Would truelly hate to see BA drop another US route due to the merger. I would hope that BA can maintain this route even without a codeshare and hope that it does. Cannot see it being a priority in the HP/US deal but may happen eventually. Hopefully the number crunchers at BA can come up with figures that make it profitable for BA to maintain. BA AT PHX TO STAY!!
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Expressjetphx (Reply 17):
it was yields (i.e. too many pax paying discount fares & sitting in economy),

And what makes them think it would be any different this time around? PHX is a low yield city. Personally, I'll take BA over LH.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 15):
It would seem BA could do better than HP/US on the route if the code share was termianted because BA has more logical feed at either LHR or LGW than HP does @ PHX.

I agree. HP couldn't even hope to compete with BA for intra-England traffic. bmi? yeah, ok.
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MAH4546
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 16):
I think LH should look at establishing a codeshare out of LAS.

Why? Lufthansa does not fly to Las Vegas. Their leisure airline, Condor, does. Condor is a holiday airline and does not codeshare. They operate long-hauls to holiday destinations that are low-yield and aren't suitable for Lufthansa to operate full-fare service to. In the US, these are Anchorage, Fairbanks, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, and Orlando.
a.
 
expressjetphx
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sat May 21, 2005 4:08 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 19):
And what makes them think it would be any different this time around?

The fact that they would have the benefit of the codeshare with the new US Airways for feeding more premium pax from all over the West Coast, in addition to the O&D traffic in Phoenix.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 19):
Personally, I'll take BA over LH.

So would I, but I'm not sure Star Alliance thinks the same way. I'd like to have both flying in, just so we get the service, but then again, I'd also like PHX to be the next JFK and it's not going to happen anytime soon. Even if they did drop the codeshare, a combination of 6x weekly BA 772 or 763ER and Daily LH A342/343 or 332 could probably work (BA revenue coming from pax as well as valuable PHX-London cargo ops), although obviously I'd prefer 744s from both airlines, or an LH A346/BA 744 combo.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Sun May 22, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):
A possible downgrade to the 772 or 763 like "Commavia" was saying could be the answer.



Quoting Expressjetphx (Reply 17):
And BA could always drop down to a 763ER or 772 and just fly the route on its own.

...keep in mind that even a daily 763ER might run afoul of the required biannual minima for maintaining LHR service.

Quoting Rj777 (Reply 11):
Of course, if BA Gets the 777LR, they wouldn't need the codeshare. They could do a direct nonstop.

...what on Earth are you talking about???
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rj777
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Mon May 23, 2005 10:30 am

Can't the 7772LR Do PHX-LHR Nonstop?
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Mon May 23, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting Expressjetphx (Reply 21):
The fact that they would have the benefit of the codeshare with the new US Airways for feeding more premium pax from all over the West Coast, in addition to the O&D traffic in Phoenix.

Well that's if HP dumps BA. LH will have to present a more compelling reason than "Star alliance" membership to get HP to dump PHX-LHR nonstop access and end the relationship that BA-HP have established over the years. The city of Phoenix also likes this access as well.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
exFATboy
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Mon May 23, 2005 11:35 am

Presuming that NewUS stays in Star, then I'd think that at some point Star would expect the legacy-HP relationship with BA to end and start funnelling PHX-LHR passengers through a Star connection. It's possible that until NewUS (or UA) is ready to offer a nonstop from PHX to London, that Star will just be quiet and let the agreement stay in place, as a connection would be less competitive.

I know people cite the Qantas example, but right now I believe that the US-QF relationship is only a FF alliance left over from before US joined Star - it's not a codeshare. I just got fare quotes on US' website for PHL-SYD, and all the codeshares came back on US through SFO. US' website will sell you connections within Australia on QF (I tried PHL-CNS as a test), but it will on ANZ and Aviaco, too.

I suspect that at some point, Star will expect NewUS to sever the QF relationship, just as if a SkyTeam member starts flying from the US to Australia, I'd expect CO to be told to sever their QF relationship too.
 
acefreighter
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Mon May 23, 2005 5:48 pm

Don't worry about the LHR-PHX at the moment - only around 15-20pct of the customers are connecting, so even IF the codeshare was terminated there would still be plenty of passengers.

A US/HP operation PHX-LGW would die without onward connections from LGW and Star are not well connected at LGW.
 
hz747300
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Mon May 23, 2005 8:29 pm

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 23):
Can't the 7772LR Do PHX-LHR Nonstop?

Before they went to 744 6x/week, the service was daily on a 772. So the 772LR could do it no problemo.
Keep on truckin'...
 
LUC
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 1:46 am

Everybody is talking about connecting passenger in PHX, but there is also the aspect of connecting passengers in LHR.
After 9/11, I and many of my collegues try to fly from Europe to our final US destination without a stop in the US. Connecting through a major hub like ORD or ATL has become sometimes a gamble : a 2 hour connection is sometimes not enough any more.
So when LH flew from FRA to PHX, I took this flight. Also at that moment, BA was still flying LGW to PHX, and from my departure airport, BRU, it was not easy not connect to LGW.
Like me, many people who have to be in PHX for business, just switched from LH to BA. When the BA flight would be dropped, they simply will switch back to LH, if they would re-establish the flight.
(One nice aspect of both the BA and LH flight : sometimes they flew over the Grand Canyon : can't have enough of that !).


LUC
 
flyboyaz
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting AceFreighter (Reply 26):
Don't worry about the LHR-PHX at the moment - only around 15-20pct of the customers are connecting, so even IF the codeshare was terminated there would still be plenty of passengers.

True! I worked at BA in PHX for a while. It was when we had a 744 and the SAN stop. We had a pretty good amount of people connecting from HP, but I wouldn't say any more than maybe 15 or 20 a flight. There were times it was overbooked so that would wash out most of the connections anyhow. There is a huge amount of tourism from Great Britain in particular, to the PHX area. We also saw a huge amount of people coming from Germany and Scandanavia (mostly Denmark). Probably why LH started their flight. Too bad it didn't last. If anything, if US/HP were to start international destinations from PHX, you would see a FRA nonstop because of the Star Alliance. LH did not have much opportunity for connections from UA in PHX. Obviously HP's traffic would help considerably.
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gigneil
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 23):
Can't the 7772LR Do PHX-LHR Nonstop?

A regular 777-200ER can do it just fine. They codeshare beyond PHX.

HP/US would be hard pressed to compete on this route at this time... the only plane they have that could do it is the 767-200ER, hardly a replacement for BA's service. The most they could hope is to upgrade to the A330-200 in 2007, because an A330-300 couldn't do the route without a penalty.

N
 
jmc1975
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting AceFreighter (Reply 26):
A US/HP operation PHX-LGW would die without onward connections from LGW and Star are not well connected at LGW.

Possibly a PHX-MAN segment would work better, with outbound connections on bmi throughout Europe. Also if the merger goes through and HP/US are in Star, LH should re-examine PHX-FRA because of a major boost in connection traffic. Ultimately, I can envision PHX becoming the Southwestern gateway to Europe:

BA 772 PHX-LHR
LH 343 PHX-FRA
US 332 PHX-MAN
US 332 PHX-CDG
.......
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 3:16 am

Why does a merged HP/US being in Star have to mean the end of the BA codeshare? QF and AF have established a codeshare through SIN to enable QF to serve CDG still, and last time I looked AF aren't a OneWorld carrier!

Airlines can have codeshare agreements with carriers in other alliances. You don't even have to be in an alliance - look at the way AS is called a codeshare whore by some on here for linking up with near enough anyone who'll have them!

If it works for BA and US/HP to maintain a codeshare on certain flights out of PHX, then expect it to stay.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: HP/US Will This Spell The End To BA's LHR-PHX

Tue May 24, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 23):
Can't the 7772LR Do PHX-LHR Nonstop?

easily, as can a myriad of other aircraft... I'm still not seeing your point here.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 24):
LH will have to present a more compelling reason than "Star alliance" membership to get HP to dump PHX-LHR nonstop access

...how can HP dump what they don't have, to begin with?  Wink
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