squirrel83
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:28 pm

HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 10:40 pm

Approximately $675 million of additional cash financing is being secured through a combination of refunding of certain deposits, debt refinancing (which reduces collateralization) and signing bonuses from companies interested in long-term business relationships with the merged airline. The companies have signed commitments or firm proposals for more than $425 million in additional cash liquidity from strategic partners and vendors, including over $300 million in a signing bonus and a loan from prospective affinity credit card providers for the merged company. Negotiations with credit card companies are still in progress. Another $250 million will come from Airbus in the form of a loan. The companies have also agreed that the merged company will be the launch customer for the Airbus A350, with deliveries scheduled from 2011 to 2013.

http://www.luchtzak.com/article8707.html
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/19/news/midcaps/airlines/index.htm

[Edited 2005-05-20 15:43:26]
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 10:43 pm

If they last till 2011 and 2013.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 10:50 pm

Agreed, doubt they will. We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains. In order to get any orders they have to force them to buy a plane that they didn't want'

Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
squirrel83
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:28 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
January 20th, 2009 Can't Come Fast Enough!  Smile

What is Jan 20th, 2009 if you dont mind asking. . . .
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
N501US
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:51 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 10:53 pm

I'm guessing he doesn't care for President Bush.........it is inauguration day.
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
Sjoerd
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:47 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?

Airbus just made the best out of a bad situation, US going bankrupt won't help Airbus selling A320s. Not to mention all the planes US is paying off. US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

Offering financial support is not very different from offering a very low price for a plane, something both manufacturers do.

Also US doesn't have to take the financial help !

Sjoerd

[Edited 2005-05-20 16:04:57]
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Agreed, doubt they will. We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains.

And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft. But that's for another thread running.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Airbus just made the best out of a bad situation, US going bankrupt won't help Airbus selling A320s. Not to mention all the planes US is paying off. US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

This is probably an aircraft that too much airplane for US to handle.

Not only that they are forced to purchase this meaning they will have to finance the purchase (god knows who's going to be crazy enough to give them money to buy airplanes that they really don't need) and this means that they will add more debt to the books and makes their financial viability even more in doubt.

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Also US doesn't have to take the financial help !

Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
US has A330s on order, they will probably be changed into A350s.

There is no mention of any conversion of the order to the A330. Airbus would be stupid to do that. They need to sell US the A330s now rather than the A350 6 years from now where they survival is very much in doubt. Airbus knows this and did not defer any of the A330 orders or write in a conversion into the agreement. The only planes that are defered are the A320s.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
keesje
Posts: 8601
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 5):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft

Anything to back up this bold statement NYC777?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

your definetly right. NOT... Sure Airbus will tell US, you know what here is $250 million, but we dont want anything in return. What kind of investment would that be?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 9):
What kind of investment would that be?

They could have just made an equity investment into US that way they prevent US from failing and saturating the market with 100s of A320s! That would be a very bad day for Airbus. But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Anything to back up this bold statement NYC777?

255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
squirrel83
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:28 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:41 pm

At least they make it look nice but I still go with the 7E7. . . anyone want to photoshop this and make it with US Air Colors?

Here is a link to the full picture

http://www.eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400004/8/03/33620038.jpg



[Edited 2005-05-20 16:47:11]
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:42 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350. It's plain as balck and white.

Facts please and no wild speculations.
No one on this board can clearly say to this very moment that the A350 is an inferior aircraft. By the way inferior to what ? Inferior to another engineer´s screensaver on some PC/Mac of the other side of the Atlantic ?
Let both planes be build, let both planes take of and let both planes enter commercial service before say something about both planes. At the moment they are nothing but concepts which can be changed a dozen times.
What is left of the radical ideas of the 787 ? It has started as the Sonic Cruiser, became a upgraded 767, then after some marketing engineers redesigned it again it to look different then the other planes around it was offered a while (succesfully ) but it just become a plastic 767 again.


Don´t take me wrong I love the 787 and have said that very often on this board but who knows maybe the A350 will outperform and outsell the 787. Can´t say at this moment - I doubt it-but it is possible. So before nothing is clear I would not call either plane inferior to the other.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Sjoerd
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:47 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft,

First of all Airbus is trying to save US, so they don't loose the constant stream of cash from US for the aircraft already in US' fleet and any loan has conditions. I agree that US wouldn't buy the A350 otherwise, this doesn't mean that things will not work out US and Airbus in the end however.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
This is probably an aircraft that too much airplane for US to handle

The new US will be a different and much larger airline and they already operate the A333, so they know what there buying sizewise.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

Is it Airbus' fault that US is in such bad shape ? You as an American should be thankfull that Airbus (and all the other investors) do this. Hopefully to the benefit of both US and the investors.

Sjoerd
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
trex8
Posts: 4577
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft

well, I suspect since the UK treasury has been getting hundreds of millions of pounds annually in royalties (besides the interest and principal on the loans they had given) from Airbus since the mid 90s, they are quite happy to throw more tax payers money at yet another Airbus project because, while past performance does not predict future returns, this has been a very good investment for the UK taxpayer so far!

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

since no one knows what this newest iteration of the A350 is all about , I guess you have ESP
 
keesje
Posts: 8601
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Fri May 20, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.

A350 is two yrs behind the 7e7/787. 2 years ago Boeing was nowhere with the 7e7. IMO that didn't make the 7e7 inferior.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
They could have just made an equity investment into US that way they prevent US from failing and saturating the market with 100s of A320s! That would be a very bad day for Airbus. But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

Do you even know how hard it is to secure an investment of $250 million? Why should Airbus just do an equity investment, where they can one up that.

With respect to the "inferior aircraft" comment. All I have to say is, we dont know Jack ish. Unless you have ESP as Trex8 says. =P

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13757
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:19 am

In any case, it's a sweet deal. As I said on another thread, suppose you were in personal bankrupcy and GM offers you a loan for $5k now if you agree to buy a $40k car in 2011. Of course you take the loan! It kinda sucks if you are Ford, but that's life.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
In any case, it's a sweet deal. As I said on another thread, suppose you were in personal bankrupcy and GM offers you a loan for $5k now if you agree to buy a $40k car in 2011. Of course you take the loan! It kinda sucks if you are Ford, but that's life.

Yes but you have to find a way to not only repay GM the loan but you also have to find a way to pay for the $40k car! And if you have a history of bankruptcy you not going to get financing so easily! Sucks if you're GM.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
wingman
Posts: 2768
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:29 am

Facts please????? Are you guys not understanding what you're reading in balck and white print in the newspapers? Airbus is lending an ultra high risk airline money to stay afloat in the medium term and in exchange forcing them to buy a plane that doesn't fit any possible long-term strategy. Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin? You must be mad. They are doing it only because Airbus is paying them to. And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy this is an additional $10B project ontop of the 380 and A400M. To take on this level of risk is completely unprecedented in the annals of industrial history during times of peace. I simply don't understand how Boeing can compete with a company that can just pull $10B projects out of its ass on command and at 5 year intervals while principal on past due has not even begun to be repaid. It is an economic and financial miracle. La Madonna has arisen in Toulouse.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13242
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy

Incorrect. Leahy was putting some spin on the fact that with thinner linings, the A350 cabin will be slightly wider than the A330. The external fuselage is the same size.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
Airbus is lending an ultra high risk airline money to stay afloat in the medium term and in exchange forcing them to buy a plane that doesn't fit any possible long-term strategy.

Has the newly-merged airline told you what their long-term strategy is?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
We also see now how Airbus will sell the A350...put a gun to the head of any bankrupt airline and say either your sugnature will be on it or your brains.

I'm already looking forward to see AA, DL and UA going for the A350.  Wink
According to your logic, we can expect such moves, can't we? Big grin

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
In order to get any orders they have to force them to buy a plane that they didn't want'

How do you know that US didn't want a larger plane to increase longhaul services? Somehow I get the impression you are not in a position to judge what a major airline needs in 2011...  Yeah sure

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Does anyone in their right minds trully believe that US needed or wants this plane?

Who are you asking? Yourself?  Silly

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
And then having the balls to ask the British government to help them pay for developing said aircraft.

Being aggressive saves your business...

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Airbus is desperate to try and sell an inferior aircraft, that's why they made the financing conditional on the purchase of the A350.

How do you know the current A350 design is inferior? At this point of time we don't know which changes the original A350 design has received.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Not only that they are forced to purchase this meaning they will have to finance the purchase (god knows who's going to be crazy enough to give them money to buy airplanes that they really don't need) and this means that they will add more debt to the books and makes their financial viability even more in doubt.

Airbus will not threaten the market value of their own planes, so they know what they are doing. If there weren't anything to win, they wouldn't offer the deal.
We all know very little about the whole deal and the planes involved - but what I know for sure is that Airbus people definitely know more about financing than YOU.  cheerful 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation. You don't think that's gun to their head with the hammer cocked??!!

No. They are offered an attractive solution to their problems plus a modern aircraft which could be used for longhaul expansion. Sounds fair. If they don't want to, they don't have to agree.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
But they threw in the condition to buy an inferior aircraft to boot.

And the preacherman is doing it again...bla...bla...bla...  old 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
255 orders from 20 airlines including some very loyal A330 operators.

Who are "very loyal A330" operators? The term "loyal" is irrelevant for most airlines when they purchase aircraft which suit their needs. We have seen many "loyal airlines" switching between manufacturers, so no big deal.

And as I said before: Airbus have changed the A350's design, so it's quite foolish to write it off too fast.



Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
. Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin? Y

No, but US Airways surely does.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, it's either that or liquidation.

Wrong. Doug Parker lined up $1.6 billion in financing for this deal! That's $1.1 billion more than was anticipated, they were expecting to do the deal with $500m.

Those who think this deal isn't going to work out haven't been paying any attention. They could have done without the $250m from Airbus easily.

N
 
keesje
Posts: 8601
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy this is an additional $10B project ontop of the 380 and A400M

 bored  conclusions by some "analists" start to lead their own life..

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
I simply don't understand how Boeing can compete with a company that can just pull $10B projects out of its ass

Boeing has giant government deals that EADS never had/has or will have..
http://www.ixarm.com/US-Army-changes-125-billion-dollar
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_27/b3840095.htm
They make more turnover in the military business then commercial. Guess who by far the most important customer is. If you think they are clean deals.. many are in the court now.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
Facts please????? Are you guys not understanding what you're reading in balck and white print in the newspapers? Airbus is lending an ultra high risk airline money to stay afloat in the medium term and in exchange forcing them to buy a plane that doesn't fit any possible long-term strategy. Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin? You must be mad. They are doing it only because Airbus is paying them to. And with an all-new cross section according to Leahy this is an additional $10B project ontop of the 380 and A400M. To take on this level of risk is completely unprecedented in the annals of industrial history during times of peace. I simply don't understand how Boeing can compete with a company that can just pull $10B projects out of its ass on command and at 5 year intervals while principal on past due has not even begun to be repaid. It is an economic and financial miracle. La Madonna has arisen in Toulouse.

Quite true. Airbus has taken on the following risks:

A380
A350 (to be financed by Europe)
A400M (though this is amilitary porject that being funded through the Defense ministires of the participating countries)
US Airways.

Where is all the money for these risky propositions coming from?

We all know the answer and I'm not going to elaborate it here.

Boeing on the other hand can only afford to take on one risky commercial project at a time...Airbus has found a golden fountain called the EU where it can take on three risky projects and not have to worry about paying back the money if they all fail.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 16):
Do you even know how hard it is to secure an investment of $250 million? Why should Airbus just do an equity investment, where they can one up that.

Sure it's hard for US to get financing but it's also going to be very very risky for Airbus as they don't know if their investment is going to yield any fruit (the actual purchase of the A350) as US can be gone before 2011.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
A350 is two yrs behind the 7e7/787. 2 years ago Boeing was nowhere with the 7e7. IMO that didn't make the 7e7 inferior.

The A350 is just a recycling of the A330 nothing more nothing less. Hell as of yesterday Leahy is saying that the A330 can still compete with the 787...So has that been bourne out with the orders from notable A330 operators like NW, KE and AC(which is getting rid of all their A330 btw). These airlines themselves feel that the 787 is superior product to the A350 or else they wuld have bought into the A350. They did not. Can they add new technologies to A350 sure but not as much as you would from building a new plane from the ground up.

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 13):
First of all Airbus is trying to save US, so they don't loose the constant stream of cash from US for the aircraft already in US' fleet and any loan has conditions. I agree that US wouldn't buy the A350 otherwise, this doesn't mean that things will not work out US and Airbus in the end however.

We are in total agreement here! Also note that there is a good chance that US won't make it to 2011 and would have to liquidate...a siginifcant risk for Airbus (here's a scenario..US is able to operate until 2010 then economic and competitive pressures make them fold...what happens to the A350s that are to be delivered the following year, not to mention all those A320s....not good to have all those planes sitting in the desert for Airbus...or for that matter Boeing)

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 13):
The new US will be a different and much larger airline and they already operate the A333, so they know what there buying sizewise.

So they ar ebuying more size and they need to start establishing ne wlong haul routes to service them..not an easy thing to do especially since they are not alarge international player. I could see players like AA and CO even AF having them for lunch. Granted the only way to make money in this business nowadays is to have an extensive international route network (which US doesn't have) but for US they need to make plans to have more international destinations...hard to do when you're struggling against LCCs domestically and high fuel and labor prices as well.

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 13):
Is it Airbus' fault that US is in such bad shape ? You as an American should be thankfull that Airbus (and all the other investors) do this. Hopefully to the benefit of both US and the investors.

Quite right, US and HP managmeent team got them into a bad situation but they are puttin themselves in an even tighter spot as they are taking on more liabilities in the future as they have finance a purchase of 20 A350s. How are they goingto do that. In addition they have to pay back the financing they are getting to emerge from CH. 11.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
Wrong. Doug Parker lined up $1.6 billion in financing for this deal! That's $1.1 billion more than was anticipated, they were expecting to do the deal with $500m.

Those who think this deal isn't going to work out haven't been paying any attention. They could have done without the $250m from Airbus easily.

Totally right. With that amount of money the US/HP airline would have enough cash on hand as the other major players in the market ie, AA, CO, NW etc..


Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 21):
We all know very little about the whole deal and the planes involved - but what I know for sure is that Airbus people definitely know more about financing than YOU.

Ok genius

would you lend money to a company that has: poor cashflow, poor customer service (ie the baggage debacle from last Xmas), been through bankruptcy twice, large debt load with even more to come to buy $3bn worth of planes that they never asked for and that their chances of survival is still very small? And what rate would you give them? It seems to me that Airbus is in way over their heads but that's ok they have the EU to bail them out.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:16 am

NYC777, get over it mate. The 787 has over 200 orders, why cry like a little girl when Airbus gets 20? Almost all of your statements have no source or evidence, and your petulant arguing and necessary correction by others is ruining the thread.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
Do you honestly believe that America West executives are taking on the 350 with a grin?

No. But US executives are more likely to do.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 19):
It is an economic and financial miracle. La Madonna has arisen in Toulouse.

It seems the US isn't god's chosen country any more...  Silly

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Where is all the money for these risky propositions coming from?

We all know the answer and I'm not going to elaborate it here.

Have you ever realized EADS are highly profitable and probably also use earned money for their projects?  Confused

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Airbus has found a golden fountain called the EU where it can take on three risky projects and not have to worry about paying back the money if they all fail.

The other way round: certain EU countries once established Airbus and EADS and today these are profitable companies which created thousands of new hightech jobs plus they caused synergies throughout the aviation industry and their suppliers. Why not further investing into that business?

The EU citizens seem to understand the importance of Airbus for Europe - otherwise there would have been wild protests in all these years, right?
You should start a major campaign over here and tell them the "truth", but don't wonder when they show you some blank  butthead ...  Wink

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
The A350 is just a recycling of the A330 nothing more nothing less.

How do you know? Have you been to Airbus' HQ lately?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
So has that been bourne out with the orders from notable A330 operators like NW, KE and AC(which is getting rid of all their A330 btw).

Air Canada had a chance to standardize their whole widebody fleets to two models and so they also dump the A330s. Eight aircraft out of more than 60 - I wouldn't that rate as a significant turn against the A330.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
These airlines themselves feel that the 787 is superior product to the A350 or else they wuld have bought into the A350.

Or they feel the A350 is too large for their needs. Plus the A350 is more expensive. And you can be sure Boeing offered AC a great deal...

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Can they add new technologies to A350 sure but not as much as you would from building a new plane from the ground up.

You would say the same stuff even if they decided to start a totally new design.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
what happens to the A350s that are to be delivered the following year, not to mention all those A320s....not good to have all those planes sitting in the desert for Airbus...or for that matter Boeing)

The A350s could be placed elsewhere. Don't forget we talk about 2011, not 2005.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
So they ar ebuying more size and they need to start establishing ne wlong haul routes to service them..not an easy thing to do especially since they are not alarge international player.

Within Star Alliance, they have excellent international links.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
I could see players like AA and CO even AF having them for lunch.

How exactly?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Granted the only way to make money in this business nowadays is to have an extensive international route network

Which they can offer thanks to Star. And new longhaul aircraft will help them to start new services.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
but for US they need to make plans to have more international destinations...hard to do when you're struggling against LCCs domestically and high fuel and labor prices as well.

Other carriers have to face similar problems.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Quite right, US and HP managmeent team got them into a bad situation but they are puttin themselves in an even tighter spot as they are taking on more liabilities in the future as they have finance a purchase of 20 A350s.

And again I can only say Airbus and the airline executives involved certainly know more about financing than you.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Rj111 (Reply 28):
NYC777, get over it mate. The 787 has over 200 orders, why cry like a little girl when Airbus gets 20? Almost all of your statements have no source or evidence, and your petulant arguing and necessary correction by others is ruining the thread.

What are you, the thread taliban or what. If I want to state my opinion (which as a paying member I have every right to do) then who are you to tell me off if you don't like it. You can argue with my reasoning or not but your reaction is that of crying like a little girl not me. I suggest you take a lesson in adult maturity as you are sorely lacking it. MATE!

[Edited 2005-05-20 18:38:54]

[Edited 2005-05-20 18:39:15]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Sure it's hard for US to get financing but it's also going to be very very risky for Airbus as they don't know if their investment is going to yield any fruit (the actual purchase of the A350) as US can be gone before 2011.

Ofcourse its going to be risky, but most investments are risky. Present performance is not indicative of future gain. So it could go either way.

And for the sake of the thousands of employees of US/HP lets hope the airline WILL survive.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
...So has that been bourne out with the orders from notable A330 operators like NW, KE and AC(which is getting rid of all their A330 btw). These airlines themselves feel that the 787 is superior product to the A350 or else they wuld have bought into the A350

NW isnt getting rid of the A330's any time soon, they will be a complement of the B787 fleet. With the track record of time NW keeps its aircraft (read DC9, B742, DC10) I doubt the brand new A330's are going anywhere. They are here to stay for quiet some time.
Oh, one more thing, none of those carriers mentioned quote for quote that the A350 was inferior, it just didn't meet there specification. Other carriers might have a more favorable look at the aircraft and order it because it meets their requirements better than the B787 (ie EK and other soon to be announced orders), but that's another discussion.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Can they add new technologies to A350 sure but not as much as you would from building a new plane from the ground up.

You would say the same stuff even if they decided to start a totally new design.

They're not going to start a whole new design, are they. And you for one don't know me so you'll never be able to judge what I will say or not say. If they were then you can forget about the 2009 EIS that Leahy was fantasizing about or even 2010. Look at spending $10bn - $12bn in development cost plus and EIS of 2012.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Quite right, US and HP managmeent team got them into a bad situation but they are puttin themselves in an even tighter spot as they are taking on more liabilities in the future as they have finance a purchase of 20 A350s.

And again I can only say Airbus and the airline executives involved certainly know more about financing than you.

One since I work in the financial service industry and two, you do not even address the the statement as to how will US survive with more debt load on their books after financing the purchase of 20 new A350. The so-called finance experts at Airbus are only looking at their own financial stability and really don't care two hoots about US adding more debt to their books (which they will have to do as they do not have any cashflow to pay for the planes) just as long as US takes the planes and pays for them. Of course you never answered my previous statement to you:

Ok genius (and I mean this with the most sincere sarcasm)

would you lend money to a company that has: poor cashflow, poor customer service (ie the baggage debacle from last Xmas), been through bankruptcy twice, large debt load with even more to come to buy $3bn worth of planes that they never asked for and that their chances of survival is still very small? And what rate would you give them? It seems to me that Airbus is in way over their heads but that's ok they have the EU to bail them out.

So my question to you is how is US going to finance these planes given their stellar financial track record and what is that going to do to their debt load. You may avoid these questions but there are a lot of financial analyst who are asking the same questions.

[Edited 2005-05-20 18:55:32]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 31):
NW isnt getting rid of the A330's any time soon, they will be a complement of the B787 fleet.

I never said tha NW is getting rid of the A330, only AC. Please re-read my post.

[Edited 2005-05-20 18:54:08]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1497
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Where is all the money for these risky propositions coming from?

It's clearly that you don't have the slightest clue on how Airbus works. Airbus is in the business for more than 30 years. During these years they came up with an impressive productline, with some loans of the EU. Now, while selling these planes, Airbus actually makes a profit. This profit is enough to pay back their loans, do some investmens in new planes, real-estate etc and invest in crippled airlines in order to save their market.

I know you are entitled to state your opinion, but please stop shoving your completely unbased opinions down our throats if you don't know what's really happening out there.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 34):
It's clearly that you don't have the slightest clue on how Airbus works. Airbus is in the business for more than 30 years. During these years they came up with an impressive productline, with some loans of the EU. Now, while selling these planes, Airbus actually makes a profit. This profit is enough to pay back their loans, do some investmens in new planes, real-estate etc and invest in crippled airlines in order to save their market.

I know you are entitled to state your opinion, but please stop shoving your completely unbased opinions down our throats if you don't know what's really happening out there.

Cheers!

On the contrary I know perfectly well how Airbus works

And as for my opinions, I will continue to state them on this forum as that is what I paid for. You can object to them but you will not shut me up. If you don't like my opinions too bad you can go and  cry  and have a  hissyfit  .
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:14 am

deleted - posted in error

[Edited 2005-05-20 19:21:13]
 
CBERFlyer
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:27 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Also note that there is a good chance that US won't make it to 2011 and would have to liquidate

Given the state of all of the U.S.-based legacy carriers, I think it is fair to say that there is a good chance any one (or more) of them won't make it to 2011. Aren't UA and DL in pretty dire straights too? I imagine if there really are strikes by any UA employees, we'll be hearing about that airline's demise long before that of the combined HP+US airline.

I support the HP+US merger, even though I'm not a huge fan of either airline. I think that HP+US is only the first in a wave of consolidations that will occur in the next couple of years.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting CBERFlyer (Reply 37):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Also note that there is a good chance that US won't make it to 2011 and would have to liquidate

Given the state of all of the U.S.-based legacy carriers, I think it is fair to say that there is a good chance any one (or more) of them won't make it to 2011. Aren't UA and DL in pretty dire straights too? I imagine if there really are strikes by any UA employees, we'll be hearing about that airline's demise long before that of the combined HP+US airline.

I support the HP+US merger, even though I'm not a huge fan of either airline. I think that HP+US is only the first in a wave of consolidations that will occur in the next couple of years.

Another consideration is this...
normally when an airline is going to place an order they (the airline) has control over the most important thing...the timing. In this deal US has given that control to Airbus for the A350. Airbus has determined when US will take the A350 (2011 - 2013). This is irregardless of market conditions that the planes will serve in, interest rates (a huge consideration in financing costs) that US has to pay, and the future cashflow of US. They (US) is forced to accept whatever terms any financing entity will put down because they have to fulfill the obligation to Airbus to buy the planes.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 14):
well, I suspect since the UK treasury has been getting hundreds of millions of pounds annually in royalties (besides the interest and principal on the loans they had given) from Airbus since the mid 90s, they are quite happy to throw more tax payers money at yet another Airbus project because, while past performance does not predict future returns, this has been a very good investment for the UK taxpayer so far!

Quotes from this week's Flight International (apologies if posted elsewhere, or earlier - I've been on holiday for a week..)

"EADS posted improved 1st quarter results on the back of strong performance from Airbus"

EADS Earnings before interest + tax E657M ($844M approx) - in the quarter...
AIRBUS Earnings before interest + tax E628M ($806M approx) - in the quarter.. - in other words an annualised $3.2Bn !!!! earnings.

Net Profit was E330M ($424M) in the quarter - $1.7Bn annualised NET PROFIT.

I assume the balancing $1.5Bn PER ANNUM between earnings + net profit goes to repaying European taxpayers, either in tax, or interest......

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 25):
Where is all the money for these risky propositions coming from?

I can't imagine...........................

For my education, is there any reason why Boeing could not have done similar deals to this?
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Anything to back up this bold statement NYC777?

Well the fact that their launch customer came from a situation where Airbus loaned them money in exchange for launching the 350 should tell you something.

I'm not saying the 350 is inferior, but if it isn't then why are all these airlines buying the 787 and not the 350? Even carriers who've recently been buying Airbuses, like AC and NW, have snubbed the 350 and gone with the '87.
PHX based
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1497
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 35):
On the contrary I know perfectly well how Airbus works

No you don't. Every reply shows that.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 35):
And as for my opinions, I will continue to state them on this forum as that is what I paid for. You can object to them but you will not shut me up. If you don't like my opinions too bad you can go and cry and have a

Concerning the objection... Why aren't you objecting on things like:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
Wrong. Doug Parker lined up $1.6 billion in financing for this deal! That's $1.1 billion more than was anticipated, they were expecting to do the deal with $500m.

Those who think this deal isn't going to work out haven't been paying any attention. They could have done without the $250m from Airbus easily.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 39):
"EADS posted improved 1st quarter results on the back of strong performance from Airbus"

EADS Earnings before interest + tax E657M ($844M approx) - in the quarter...
AIRBUS Earnings before interest + tax E628M ($806M approx) - in the quarter.. - in other words an annualised $3.2Bn !!!! earnings.

Net Profit was E330M ($424M) in the quarter - $1.7Bn annualised NET PROFIT.

I assume the balancing $1.5Bn PER ANNUM between earnings + net profit goes to repaying European taxpayers, either in tax, or interest......

You know you can't reply to this, because it's a nasty little thing called the truth, not an opinion.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Lockheed1011
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:04 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 3:10 am

Great News!

It is a win, win situation.

Congratulation Airbus and USAirways!  Smile
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
They could have done without the $250m from Airbus easily.

Then this just proves that Airbus "Bought" the order for A-350. Why loan the money otherwise if not needed??

Quoting 777STL (Reply 40):
I'm not saying the 350 is inferior, but if it isn't then why are all these airlines buying the 787 and not the 350? Even carriers who've recently been buying Airbuses, like AC and NW, have snubbed the 350 and gone with the '87.

I can't believe I am about to say that I agree with you TWICE in one day. The A-350 is taking a beating in the market at the moment, which tells me that at least the customers percieve that it is inferior, truth or not.
One Nation Under God
 
Thrust
Posts: 2584
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 3:59 am

First time in history a U.S. airline has been the launch customer for an Airbus plane. Very unexpected, and that after two big carriers merge together....which one bought the other out? Or are we talking like a whole new livery and a brand new name will emerge for this newly formed airline? Should we expect UA to merge with somebody anytime soon? (It was Air France that launched the A300, correct, something in the back of mind is saying it was Eastern...help?)
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13242
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 43):
I can't believe I am about to say that I agree with you TWICE in one day. The A-350 is taking a beating in the market at the moment, which tells me that at least the customers percieve that it is inferior, truth or not.

Let's see after Paris.  wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
dagell
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:21 pm

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 4:51 am

If you think about it... $250 million loan is nothing compared to the billions in multiple orders Airbus may get from the plane if it gets multiple firm orders. Of course, the 787 looks much stronger.... but what do you expect Airbus to do? If they don't get someone to order (even a bankrupt airline) and start production.... what should they do.... give the entire 787/777 market to Boeing?! Airbus has the 380... Boeing has the 787/777.... and the fighting for each others markets will continue.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18106
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 38):
They (US) is forced to accept whatever terms any financing entity will put down because they have to fulfill the obligation to Airbus to buy the planes.

So - what you are saying is that GECAS is stupid?

That CEO Parker is stupid?

That GECAS and US/HP don't strong performance guarantees built into the contract?

It has been publicly stated that unless the A350 meets those criteria, US/HP can go straight to Boeing.

But hey, what do the facts matter?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 38):
Airbus has determined when US will take the A350 (2011 - 2013). This is irregardless of market conditions that the planes will serve in, interest rates (a huge consideration in financing costs) that US has to pay, and the future cashflow of US.

How do you know there are no provisions? Did you read the fine print. Dont think so. All we know is that they ordered the planes and getting a $250 million dollar loan. All this crap is full of ASSUMPTIONS, NO PROOF.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 43):
Then this just proves that Airbus "Bought" the order for A-350. Why loan the money otherwise if not needed??

This must be one of the dumbest comment yet. Why wouldn't they get the additional loan.
CNBC last night, said that with all the money combined US/HP will have cash worth $1.5 Billion, that will give them much needed cash and to be on par with the remaining majors (AA, CO and NW). Yes they could have done without the $250 millions dollars, but securing such an amount is hard to find, specially in critical times hard to deal with, such as the market we find our selves today.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: HP & US Become Launch Customer For A350

Sat May 21, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 44):
First time in history a U.S. airline has been the launch customer for an Airbus plane.

AA launched the A300-600

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AWACSooner, DexSwart, ghYHZ, Google Adsense [Bot], JetBuddy, jpsa, LazarosK, legacyins, mikeinatlanta, piedmont762, ra132914, scbriml, strfyr51, torontofly, yblaser and 392 guests