Reggaebird
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Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:20 am

So, according to media reports, Airbuse has "created" a launch customer for the A350. Because Airbuse helped to finance the US Airways/America West merger, the new carrier has agreed to take A350's beginning in 2010. Do you think that this is an innovative move or is it a risky manuever that will cause Airbuse more heartache than they have with the A350 now? Furthermore, should Boeing do the same thing for other struggling carriers? For, example, could funding for United Airlines lead to that carrier taking large numbers of 777-200LR's or even being the launch customer for the Boeing 747Adv?

Reggaebird
 
kl911
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
Do you think that this is an innovative move or is it a risky manuever that will cause Airbuse more heartache than they have with the A350 now?

Nothing wrong with it.. Business is Business. Look at what boeing does with the tanker deal...

KL911
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting Kl911 (Reply 1):
Nothing wrong with it.. Business is Business. Look at what boeing does with the tanker deal...

I don't see the similarities, unless you see a parallel with the US Air Force and US Air.
It's a very risky move on Airbus' part, and one that will either pan out or become disastrous for them. For US Air, I'm wondering if there's a "bail out" clause in their contract for the A350. I'm not sure what the thinking is when you have your house in foreclosure and decide to go out and order a new Cadillac.

[Edited 2005-05-20 17:58:25]
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col
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:06 am

Kl911,

Don't believe that you want to say that this Airbus deal is similar to Tanker deal. One is corrupt and abuse of power, using tax payers money. The other isn't, but I'm not going to confirm which one is which!!!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:10 am

Airbus has created a launch customer for the A350

No need. Airbus already had a launch customer for the A350 Air Europa ...
 
Cahiwa
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:19 am

Chalk me up to the risky column. Only because this merger is really years off from any real dividends (paying off debt, cut-cut-cut, etc.) I wish all involved the best but think in this case it is questionable. Throwing good money after bad?

Ciao... K
 
Danny
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting Col (Reply 3):
Don't believe that you want to say that this Airbus deal is similar to Tanker deal.

Then check Hawaiian deal or recent Air Canada deal. As said above - business is business and you need to be flexible to push sales.
 
slider
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Cahiwa (Reply 5):
Throwing good money after bad?

Bingo.

As one poster whose name escapes me now noted, why would Airbus throw a measly $250M at a merged set of struggling carriers only to create $10B of liability a few years from now?
 
col
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:42 am

Danny,

I think the deal is excellent for US, HP and their employees. Just making a little humor out of the comparison Kl911 made with the Tanker deal, which was illegal and gross misuse of my tax dollars, and nobody should compare any deal of this nature to that embarrasing debacle.

Col
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:45 am

Not really sure whose 'side' I'm on here! But, for what it's worth, didn't McD sell a bundle of MD80s to TWA at give-away prices a few years back? First people decried it. Then they praised McD's wisdom.

(Then McD went bust...)
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
(Then McD went bust...)

Nope, McD merged with Boeing. They never went "bust" or bankrupt either.

Cheers, Ralph
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PM
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 10):
Nope, McD merged with Boeing. They never went "bust" or bankrupt either.

Fair enough but it's a fine point!  Smile
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 10):
Nope, McD merged with Boeing. They never went "bust" or bankrupt either.

Nor, upon further reflection and two more glasses of red wine, does the McDonnell Douglas name or any of its civil products seem to have survived the, er, "merger".

[Edited 2005-05-20 18:57:57]
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:13 am

Look if Airbus had just loaned the money to US without the A350 being forced down the throats then it would have been a good deal. But now what Airbus has done was to force a carrier to not only take on $bns worth of debt but Airbus dictates the timing of when they take on that debt irregardless if US can or cannot take on that debt load and irregardless if US has use of the planes or not.

Bad deal for US and a bad deal for Airbus.
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:42 am

It looks to me that USA Civil Avi. couldnt care less if US / HP and (maybe) UA goes bankrupt. Is it only AA DL CO NW that counts here?

IMO Airbus are to help them and save thousands of jobs, am I right or am I right?

 twocents 

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'Longreach'
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
Look if Airbus had just loaned the money to US without the A350 being forced down the throats then it would have been a good deal.

A good deal to WHO exactly???
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Kl911 (Reply 1):

Nothing wrong with it.. Business is Business. Look at what boeing does with the tanker deal...

Yep, in front of Congressional review, and people in Jail.

Which is not what I am saying occured here, your example is out of line.

This is a bit different then examples in the past where Boeing has bailed out companies to keep them afloat when they already had a order backlog. This is a new investment, in exchange for committing to a new product, no matter the price difference over the Boeing model. (US explicitly said that they could cancel it if it did not match the 787s performance on the other hand).
 
mham001
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 14):
It looks to me that USA Civil Avi. couldnt care less if US / HP and (maybe) UA goes bankrupt. Is it only AA DL CO NW that counts here?

IMO Airbus are to help them and save thousands of jobs, am I right or am I right?

Spoken like a citizen of a socialist system.

Its a free market here. The strong survive and the problem is over-capacity. Something needs to give and Airbus is just extending the agony. It is good for the employees, they don't have to look for work right away. Although, many of the routes would still need to be served and somebody solvent would just step in and use employees too. I don't think this is good for US civil aviation as a whole.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 14):
IMO Airbus are to help them and save thousands of jobs, am I right or am I right?

No Airbus is protecting it's investment in the US and trying to save a project that has not been selling very well. They really don't give two hoots about saving US jobs. If they did then why aren't they offering terms to UA or saving DLs butt?

Bottom line is Airbus is going to add to the debt load of US, they are telling them when they will accept the A350 irregardless of market conditions interest rates, route that they would serve etc.(these are things that airlines usually have control over).
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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flying_727
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am

Isn't it funny that Airbus has Money to invest in HP/US, but has to ask the state to give it money to develope the A350?
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Aither
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am

Boeing has no lessons to receive from Airbus,
they did the same with Primaris and the 7E7.

These things have always existed in the aviation industry (e.g. hugues and TWA).
Never trust the obvious
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:04 am

Risky deal, 250 million, delay of the A320's, and the hope of the company to purchase the A350 in the future. Who is to say that the company will not go bankrupt and that would leave Airbus holding the keys to the A320's, A350's, and about $250 million less from the checking account.

Saying all that, I am sure that Airbus had the bean counters lay out all of the risks, so who knows. On paper, seems like a great deal for US Air/American West, and a very risky deal for Airbus.
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Aither
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 19):
sn't it funny that Airbus has Money to invest in HP/US, but has to ask the state to give it money to develope the A350?

They dont give they borrow... aren't you tired of bashing Airbus on their financing ? Boeing and Airbus products are highly similar so why you can't stand they both have 50% of the market ?
Never trust the obvious
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 17):

"spoken like a socialist system"

I didnt know Europe was socialits, its a free market here if you didnt know! Maybe you know something I dont? Maybe more liberals than US, and not so tighta$$ed conservative.  Wink

Jeeehhhh....  Yeah sure
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Boeing has no lessons to receive from Airbus,
they did the same with Primaris and the 7E7.

What are you talking about...
1) Primaris is new airline..one that hasn't started scheduled service
2) Boeing has not provided financing to them
3) Primaris is still looking for financing to start operation and start to acquire aircraft.

I think you need to check your facts.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
kdeg00
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 17):
Spoken like a citizen of a socialist system.

Its a free market here. The strong survive and the problem is over-capacity.

You're joking, right? It's either that or you stopped reading about corporate law with sophomore year economics. A "free market" economy offers neither incentive nor disincentive to the market. The U.S. and the world in general manipulate their economies in myriad ways. And the reality of a consumer-driven U.S. economy, with financial safety nets only for corporations, is that you need employed citizens to be able to purchase the goods and services that keep the economy moving. If you reduce the income of too many employees or unemploy too many consumers, the economy collapses.

Airbus providing financing to a US/HP merger may piss off people who prefer Boeing over Airbus, but it is essentially the same process Boeing or GE or any number of other huge corporations use. From my viewpoint, keeping the employees at US/HP employed in the short run is far more valuable than petty concerns over us versus them. Unless, of course, you have job openings in your business that you plan on offering to the people whose jobs might be cut without such a financing package.

And, by the way, you may be confusing "socialism" as a form of government with "socialized" as in how a health care system is regulated by a government.
 
Aither
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 24):
What are you talking about...
1) Primaris is new airline..one that hasn't started scheduled service
2) Boeing has not provided financing to them
3) Primaris is still looking for financing to start operation and start to acquire aircraft.

That's the way it looks... now if you check the Primaris situation and management, their "independence" from Boeing is highly doubtful. At least, Airbus is more transparent on this subject regarding this deal.
Never trust the obvious
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
No need. Airbus already had a launch customer for the A350 Air Europa ...

Wow...a whopping 10 frames....very impressive!

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 19):
Isn't it funny that Airbus has Money to invest in HP/US, but has to ask the state to give it money to develope the A350?

It's not funny at all. Just goes to prove Boeing's position that Airbus is more than healthy to stand on it's own two feet without the cash ha4ndout...er, I mean "subsidy".

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
Do you think that this is an innovative move or is it a risky manuever that will cause Airbuse more heartache than they have with the A350 now?

Dumb move. The airline will fold and European taxpayers will be left asking what happened. Adding more seats with an A-350 to a system burdened with overcapacity is like bailing water into the Titanic.
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boei

Sat May 21, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Col (Reply 3):
Don't believe that you want to say that this Airbus deal is similar to Tanker deal. One is corrupt and abuse of power, using tax payers money. The other isn't, but I'm not going to confirm which one is which!!!

Some people just find difficult to read under the lines. Governments use easy ways to hide what their real intent is by using colourful language.

Personally, I think both companies / governments do it very well. They do it well here in Canada too.

It's always okay for YOUR guy to do it, but when it comes time for other guys to do it, it's wrong.. (That's a VERY open statement, not directed at anyone in specific).

Read into my message and you'll understand what I'm saying.

1011yyz.
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
At least, Airbus is more transparent on this subject regarding this deal

Hardly, they're trying to prevent 100's of planes from re-entering the market and sell a plane that has not been selling well at all. They could give two hoots about US.

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
now if you check the Primaris situation and management, their "independence" from Boeing is highly doubtful.

The fact still remains that :
1) Primaris is a new airline not one that is under Ch. 11 protection
2) Boeing is not providing them with financing

Just admit you were wrong and move on.

 sarcastic 
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Pope
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 3:34 am

This new US is a launch customer in name alone. I can't imagine that the board would consider this a bona fide indication of customre support for the A350.

Maybe the way UA could kill two birds with one stone would be to have Airbus fund its pension liability in exchange for a committment to only purchase airbus aircraft for all time.

Seriously, this is a nice way to get the A350 into the headlines but I don't think it is very significant from a business perspective. Also I wonder how Airbus's auditors will treat the transaction.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
mham001
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 23):

I didnt know Europe was socialits

I didn't know Europe was one government.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
It looks to me that USA Civil Avi. couldnt care less if US / HP and (maybe) UA goes bankrupt. Is it only AA DL CO NW that counts here?

IMO Airbus are to help them and save thousands of jobs, am I right or am I right?

Obviously spoken by someone who lived in a country where socialized systems dominate!! I'll stick with the market-driven approach any day.
 
kdeg00
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 31):
I didn't know Europe was one government.

I would have thought the whole EU thing was pretty well public knowledge by now.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 32):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
It looks to me that USA Civil Avi. couldnt care less if US / HP and (maybe) UA goes bankrupt. Is it only AA DL CO NW that counts here?

IMO Airbus are to help them and save thousands of jobs, am I right or am I right?

Obviously spoken by someone who lived in a country where socialized systems dominate!! I'll stick with the market-driven approach any day.



I didn't say that!!!!!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:44 am

Come to think of it, why would an LCC based in Phoenix, Arizona need a 300 passenger aircraft with an 8,000 mile range? It might be useful if they apply for and are granted routes to far off places. In the USA, that is a big IF for carriers other than the top 4!

Reggaebird
 
eha
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):

Bad deal for US and a bad deal for Airbus.

Do you believe Boeing Capital corporation helps airlines financing Airbus plane ????

Both companies haves financial services helping airlines customers financing/leasing A/C. Are you discovering this ????

E.
 
mham001
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boei

Sat May 21, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 25):

Airbus providing financing to a US/HP merger may piss off people who prefer Boeing over Airbus, but it is essentially the same process Boeing or GE or any number of other huge corporations use. From my viewpoint, keeping the employees at US/HP employed in the short run is far more valuable than petty concerns over us versus them. Unless, of course, you have job openings in your business that you plan on offering to the people whose jobs might be cut without such a financing package.

Thats the short-term view. Propping up a sinking ship only prolongs the ships' sinking. Most of those lost jobs will be recreated when those routes are swallowed up by the companies who can better mangage themselves.
From my point of view, this is not an us thing. I only believe its a poor business decision on the part of Airbus(and others) and a very good deal for those airlines. Does not make it good for the industry. Ge is propping up several airlines, including one whose stock I own. At some point, the realization will come that there is too much over-capacity. There is only one solution for this, other than the government propping up non-essential companies-liquidation.
Now, as for the implication that Airbus is 24% controlled by the French government....
 
blackknight
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:51 am

Bottom line which is either right or wrong, there is a whole lot more to these deals than what meets the press or is printed. I would buy a plane who's performance was lacking if I got special financing, deals on maintenance, my airline got special reviews for purchasing restricted slots in crowed airports, if I was given an advance to help cash flow to prevent bankruptcy and the general elimination of my company there would not be an option. Airbus may have created a unique method of selling aircraft one which is not based upon the best aircraft but the best package deal. No links needed for this information.

Airbus will win at any costs and is driving the industry to do the same. My fear is that the industry will not know when to say enough. Also if they do not play the game ethically then what else would they do to win? Winning at all costs may have won Airbus the current title of Largest Airplane Manufacturer but will it keep them there? When will it escalate to countries fighting with each other? How long can this fight continue until it effects all other commerce?

Lets look outside the box of aviation for a moment what precedence does this activity set? Do we all want the negotiation of airliners done by the heads of state? Airbus is making this fight not personal but as a nation (EU) against all other nations. Do we think that China will not try making airliners in the future? How about Japan with all there new knowledge? What will the sales of airliners include in the future? Toys, tools, TV's, food, aid, and airliner packages from one country to the next. Just because you can win at all costs does not mean you should or that you will not hurt yourself.

Aviation may never be the same.

Yes hats of to Airbus for their creative marketing techniques for the moment they are kings.
BK
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 35):
Do you believe Boeing Capital corporation helps airlines financing Airbus plane ????

Both companies haves financial services helping airlines customers financing/leasing A/C. Are you discovering this ????

E.

Financing the purchase of new aircraft is different than propping up a bankrupt company so that you can force your products on them. Airbuse is now playing the role of aviation's version of "Dr. Frankenstein" to US Airway's "the monster". By bringing the carrier back from the dead, Airbus is trying to create a servant (or product slave).

Proposed New Slogan

Airbus - In pursuit of DEAD air
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 39):
Airbuse is now playing the role of aviation's version of "Dr. Frankenstein" to US Airway's "the monster".

Airbus is doing this? GECAS is not involved? Not PAR Investment? Nor ACE Holdings? Nor Air Wisconsin? Nor Wexford Capital?

Only Airbus?

Wow.

Please tell me where you got your MBA - I shall apply there immediately!

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
kdeg00
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 37):
Most of those lost jobs will be recreated when those routes are swallowed up by the companies who can better mangage themselves.

A look at how the workforces in other merger-driven industries (telecom, printing, automobile, computing) have fared post merger should put the lie to that statement. If overcapacity is truly the culprit for U.S. airlines' problems, there is no way that workers laid off from the dying airlines are going to be picked up by the survivors. There just won't be a need for their duplication of services.

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 38):
Lets look outside the box of aviation for a moment what precedence does this activity set? Do we all want the negotiation of airliners done by the heads of state?

Realistically, this happens all the time in all sorts of industries. A diplomatic trade mission by the state department to another country isn't just a vacation prospect for senior diplomatic corps staff.

In this case, of course Airbus is trying to sell planes. The incentive to the airline in question is just more public than usual. There are incentives in any transaction between an airline and the aircraft manufacturers but they may be structured differently, hidden in a lowered cost of acquisition, masked by a guarantee of resale value at end of term and so on.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
what Airbus has done was to force a carrier to not only take on $bns worth of debt but Airbus dictates the timing of when they take on that debt irregardless if US can or cannot take on that debt load and irregardless if US has use of the planes or not.

Does anyone really believe that US/HP is going to take a loan and future delivery of aircraft without negotiating the timing, cost, etc...? Come on people, if US/HP didn't find the proposition in their interests the would tell Airbus to piss off. US needs to take on debt if it wants more operating capital, that's how it works.
 
qr332
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boei

Sat May 21, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
Nor, upon further reflection and two more glasses of red wine, does the McDonnell Douglas name or any of its civil products seem to have survived the, er, "merger".

That is only partially true - the MD11 and IIRC the MD-80 series were still being made after the merger, and the MD series was continued with the Boeing 717 (but now that it is dead as well, MDs products are dead, which is why what you said is sort of true).

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 27):
Wow...a whopping 10 frames....very impressive!

Although I agree the entire A350 project is not looking so good so far, you never know how it can pick up. Air Europa is secured, and so is a huge order from Emirates. Now Airbus has also secured US/HP, and I think their strategy for securing new customers seems to be working pretty well so far, although it would be disastrous for them if the US/HP merger did not work out as they'd like. There are still plenty of opportunities for Airbus, and the sucess of the A350 depends on how well Airbus takes advantage of these opportunities.

I think that Airbus's move is a very risky one which, as many others have already said, could pay out for them or could lead to disaster. But, if it does pay out, it means that they have secured a new customer for the A350 and a customer who would probably be loyal to Airbus for a long time to come.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Planesmart
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RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
Airbus is doing this? GECAS is not involved? Not PAR Investment? Nor ACE Holdings? Nor Air Wisconsin? Nor Wexford Capital?

Only Airbus?

Well said.

Later this year you will see at least one more merged entity, and B will likely provide a similar package, although it may use mirrors (GECAS).

A (and other major creditors had 2 options). Call it quits with US and take an immediate hit to the bottom line, or, support the merger with increased funding (and additional committments), in return for product support in the future. Over the next 12 mths you will see other product / service suppliers have required similar support, but they are US-based companies, so I guess their support is OK.

For those who don't want to see US survive, the former was the preferred option. US survival means one or two of the remaining legacies will be permitted to fail to ensure the survival of the rest.

Even Southwest is looking at marriage opportunities, because very soon in the US, there is going to be very big and boutique, and anything else in between is going to feel seriously squeezed. HP alone, post industry re-structure would have been in the in-between category.
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 37):
Propping up a sinking ship only prolongs the ships' sinking.

Agreed- it's delaying natural selection. And by doing so, it's detrimental to the rest of the industry who is not on life support. It only accelerates the cash crunch and liquidity bleed the rest of us are facing.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 39):
Financing the purchase of new aircraft is different than propping up a bankrupt company so that you can force your products on them.

Good distinction. A product, I might add, for which this new carrier may not have a use for or have a very limited use for. We shall see.
 
commavia
Posts: 10077
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Kl911 (Reply 1):
Nothing wrong with it.. Business is Business.

I agree. It isn't fair competition, and it isn't fair to Boeing, but, as you say -- business is business -- and all's fair in love and war. Airbus is doing nothing illegal and I think this move of theirs is clever and creative. They have essentially bought their way into a market they have thus far flopped in.

Quoting Kl911 (Reply 1):
Look at what boeing does with the tanker deal

As much as I am sure the Airbus people will hate this, I think that is a very unfair comparison, as Boeing is not loaning the American government millions of dollars to bribe them for an aircraft order.
 
M27
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 am

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
Airbus is doing this? GECAS is not involved? Not PAR Investment? Nor ACE Holdings? Nor Air Wisconsin? Nor Wexford Capital?

Do these institutions have an agreement that the new airline can only borrow money from them? Does this agreement mean they can only lease aircraft from GECAS? If some of these capital firms in the distant future need money to undertake some investment in a shopping mall and are a few million short, does US/HP have to contribute?


If GECAS wanted to lease some Boeing aircraft to the airline, would that be OK?
If ILFC wants to lease any aircraft to the airline, is it OK, or will it just be Airbus?

I see quite a difference between these other firms agreements as opposed to the Airbus one.

I don't pertend to speak for Reggaebird, but I think this is what he meant.
 
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mariner
Posts: 18405
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting M27 (Reply 46):
If GECAS wanted to lease some Boeing aircraft to the airline, would that be OK?

I have read nothing that prevents it.

Quoting M27 (Reply 46):
If ILFC wants to lease any aircraft to the airline, is it OK, or will it just be Airbus?

I have read nothing that prevents it.

Quoting M27 (Reply 46):
Does this agreement mean they can only lease aircraft from GECAS?

I have read nothing that says that.

Generally, I really do not understand your point. You see a difference because you want to see a difference.

So - how is the Airbus investment any different from - say - ACE Holdings, who are investing in the new airline in order to get more mx work in Canada?

How is the Airbus investment any different from GECAS, who are restucturing the US Airways in order to proect their own investment?

How is the Airbus investment any different from - say - Air Wisconsin, who are investing in the new airline to save their butt after United dropped them?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
M27
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 am

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 47):
Generally, I really do not understand your point

I believe you do Mariner.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 47):
You see a difference because you want to see a difference

I see a difference because there is one.
 
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mariner
Posts: 18405
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus "Creates" A350 Client - Lesson For Boeing?

Sat May 21, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting M27 (Reply 48):
I believe you do Mariner.

Seriously, I do not see your point. I may be many imperfect things in this world, but I am not a liar.

Nor do I see the point in lying on an internet discussion board.

Quoting M27 (Reply 48):
I see a difference because there is one.

Then please explain to me what that difference is.

I gave you questions - give me answers.

mariner
aeternum nauta

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