beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 1:49 am

Is Airbus even capable of building a composite fuselage to compete with the 787? Reading this article from January 2005 makes me wonder:

Quote:
If Boeing engineers can solve the puzzle of building successfully with composites, they will eliminate hundreds of thousands of rivets, hours of machining time, and billions of dollars in expensive manufacturing machinery. That, in turn, should allow Boeing to price its new jet more competitively.

Charles Champion, the Airbus executive who is managing the A380's development, said last summer that he has nothing against composites.

But after years studying the trade-offs between metal and plastic, he said, Airbus decided that composites cost too much to use practically in large structures like fuselage barrels.

Building a fuselage out of composites, Champion said, "is a bit like a cake. It has to be perfect. If it isn't perfect it is ugly. We are very skeptical."

"Have you seen the B2 fly by at almost $1 billion a copy?" asked Leahy at Airbus. "It only has two seats."

Leahy at Airbus concedes that Boeing may have solved the riddle of making large, one-piece barrels.

"I believe if they say they're going to do it, they will," he said.

"The other guy's saying he can't do it. So let him say that," Frank Statkus of Boeing said. "He can't do it because he can't. We can do it because we can."
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:04 am

Beauing -- makes me wonder

Well fine, Beauing. But so what  fluffy 


Boeing folks have their backs up against a wall here and to their credit they're at least not rolling over but are going for the gusto and trying to really advance jetliner design technology along a by few major steps. Can they do it --or for that matter Airbus or even for that matter Russian or Japanese or Korean or a whole bunch of other guys around the world too? Why of course they all can. At least for a few planes anyway. Just a question of how much resources they put into the effort.

The real and unanswered question is can anybody make them cost-effectively for commercial sales in the industry, and without a whole bunch of added technical headaches for airlines to worry about once they're flying 'em. Thanks to Boeing at least we'll soon get a glimpse into all that in the next couple years ahead  Smile
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:15 am

There is a lot of complexity in the construction method that Boeing are developing. Not only are the tape-laying machines complex, not only is it difficult to machine such large mandrels to the specs needed, but the direction in which each layer of tape is laid is an engineering question. I'd wager that Boeing are developing software tools to aid in figuring out exactly where to lay each stretch of tape. That might be the most difficult part for a competitor to duplicate.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:15 am

Well, SAAB aircraft was asked by Airbus to make the wingparts they do in composites,
unfortunatly it didn´t work out...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Sjoerd
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:47 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:18 am

The A400M has a composite fuselage and a higher percentage of composites overall than the B787, so yes they can.

Sjoerd
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Beauing (Thread starter):
"Have you seen the B2 fly by at almost $1 billion a copy?" asked Leahy at Airbus. "It only has two seats."

What!? What has a medium sized airliner got to do with stealth bomber? If I were the suspicious type, I would say this comment was evidence he was really afraid of Boeing's composite fuselage and was grasping at straws for a way to talk it down.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:23 am

I think the USA have a technology advance in terms of composites tied to their defence-developments.How long that advance will remain and how many years the Airbus team is behind - nobody really knows.
Technically speaking ,Airbus might be in a position to create an all-composite body or wing but the commercial feasability might be the problem. If out of three bodies one has layer-faults or structural weaknesses- well it's commercially unviable.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:28 am

One problem with composites is that manufacturing faultsd can not be corrected and will only be noticed once the whole part has been finished. This lead to a huge amount of waste when Airbus first tried out composite tail fins (they had to scrap one out of three right in the factory), so they went, for a while, back to aluminium.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:29 am

Glom --If I were the suspicious type,

Then let's maybe hope you're actually not  cool 

(and not be surprised if Leahy continues with his usual spiel, as most everybody around here 'suspects' he probably will. Actually at times he's even somewhat entertaining with that  Smile )
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 1):
The real and unanswered question is can anybody make them cost-effectively for commercial sales in the industry,

No kidding! Gee you're smart... If it's going to compete with the 787 it must be a commercial application. That goes without saying.

And if it's So what?
Why do you bother to respond?
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:34 am

Beauing-- That goes without saying.


Less so if Boeing's backs are up against a wall a bit, Beauing.


And if it's So what?
Why do you bother to respond?


Maybe it'll help you out a tad with perspective!

Plus put some levity into the zany-right-off-the-bat thread as well  Smile
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 5):
What!? What has a medium sized airliner got to do with stealth bomber? If I were the suspicious type, I would say this comment was evidence he was really afraid of Boeing's composite fuselage and was grasping at straws for a way to talk it down.

Glom, this is why I like your posts - you tell it like it is. The B-2 is expensive because it has stealth technology, it is the first real production flying wing design, it had to meet stringent DoD standards, and the development costs - which were to be spread out over many airplanes - ended up being split between the 21 that were ordered, much less than the original 130+ that were asked for. So comparing an extremely advanced military bomber concept to a revolutionary commercial airplane, in the area of potential costs, is ridiculous.
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 3):
The A400M has a composite fuselage and a higher percentage of composites overall than the B787, so yes they can.

Yes, but a military application doesn't have the cost constraints that a civil airliner project has. Can Airbus build a composite competitor to the 787 in the A350, or a replacement for the A300 or A320?
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 10):
Less so if Boeing's backs are up against a wall a bit, Beauing.

You know you keep using this expression over and over again. How exactly is Boeing's back up against the wall? Here's the situation with the 787 - Boeing introduces it, Airbus initially counters with "the 787 will not be effective competition against the A330, we do not need to develop a new airplane to compete." Then, interest in the 787 grows so Airbus says "we will take the engines designed for the 787 and put them on the A330, efficiency will be matched close enough that we won't have to design a new airplane." Then sales begin to boom, so Airbus says "we will offer the A350, it will be an A330 derivative with a new wing, new engines, etc, etc" - but nobody buys it - well except Air Europa for 10 - so now they say "the A350 is constantly evolving, no longer an A330 derivative, it will be all new."

Now, judging by the facts at hand - not speculation and opinion, who exactly has who against a wall at this moment in time?  Smile

A few years ago, yes Airbus had the upper hand - surpassing Boeing in sales for the first time ever. The tides have changed for now, if you can't see that you are blind.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 4):
The A400M has a composite fuselage and a higher percentage of composites overall than the B787, so yes they can.

The 787 is 80% composite by volume, so I'd really like to see an exact quoute as to the A400M's construction...

Besides, it's less can they than it is will they.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
I think the USA have a technology advance in terms of composites tied to their defence-developments.How long that advance will remain and how many years the Airbus team is behind - nobody really knows.

To some degree or another, Boeing has been trying to get the composite ball rolling for twenty years. The 7J7 in 1988 featured primarily carbon laminate construction and the 737NG was planned with a composite wing... neither panned-out.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
One problem with composites is that manufacturing faultsd can not be corrected and will only be noticed once the whole part has been finished. This lead to a huge amount of waste when Airbus first tried out composite tail fins (they had to scrap one out of three right in the factory), so they went, for a while, back to aluminium.

That isn't to say precise quality control cannot be maintained. The main fan of the Ge90 is carbon laminate, and only two individual fan blades have ever required replacement since EOS.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
If out of three bodies one has layer-faults or structural weaknesses- well it's commercially unviable.

The q.c of current composite materials is well over 90%

http://www.geae.com/ourcommitment/innovation/ge90fanblade.html
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 10):
Less so if Boeing's backs are up against a wall a bit, Beauing.

Maybe it'll help you out a tad with perspective!

Plus put some levity into the zany-right-off-the-bat thread as well

I think it's Airbus who's back is against the wall. The A350 is failing in the market place. There are rumors they are scrapping the design and going back to the drawing board. Will it ever compete without going to an all composite fuselage? That's a perfectly legitimate discussion for a.net.
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:58 am

I've been wondering about the 787 engines on the A350. Can they really just take engines designed for a Boeing product? Didn't Boeing pay for their development in some way?
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
That isn't to say precise quality control cannot be maintained. The main fan of the Ge90 is carbon laminate, and only two individual fan blades have ever required replacement since EOS.

Evidently GE must be happy with how that worked out since the GEnx engine will also have a composite fan casing. They are increasing the use of composites in their engines.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 12):
Yes, but a military application doesn't have the cost constraints that a civil airliner project has. Can Airbus build a composite competitor to the 787 in the A350, or a replacement for the A300 or A320?

Your original question, though, and the post that started the thread questioned Airbus' technical ability in the absolute. On the assumption that the A400 will be built, the answer has to be "yes".

As to whether Airbus can commercially build a competitor to the 787, we have no proof yet that Boeing can commercially build the 787.

Before you get upset, I personally believe that Boeing can do it, and will do it, that it won't be plain sailing, and that they will have to resolve lots of problems in the process.
However, I also believe that Airbus can do this.
The difference to me is the level of risk versus reward that the different companies are prepared to take AT THIS TIME.

I applaud Boeing and can't wait for them to succeed with the 787.
I feel that it is dangerous for you to assume that Airbus isn't capable of doing the same thing.
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 13):
Airbus initially counters with "the 787 will not be effective competition against the A330, we do not need to develop a new airplane to compete." Then, interest in the 787 grows so Airbus says "we will take the engines designed for the 787 and put them on the A330, efficiency will be matched close enough that we won't have to design a new airplane." Then "we will offer the A350, it will be an A330 derivative with a new wing, new engines, etc, etc" - so now they say "the A350 is constantly evolving, no longer an A330 derivative, it will be all new."

Oh and dont forget the 'detuned' A330 where they were going to eliminate the galley's to save weight. An idea that would be funny if it weren't so pathetic...
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5026
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 5):
Quoting Beauing (Thread starter):
"Have you seen the B2 fly by at almost $1 billion a copy?" asked Leahy at Airbus. "It only has two seats."

What!? What has a medium sized airliner got to do with stealth bomber? If I were the suspicious type, I would say this comment was evidence he was really afraid of Boeing's composite fuselage and was grasping at straws for a way to talk it down.

First off that was exactly what I was thinking. That was a stupid statement. Really, I was like, WTF does a military bomber and its price (which is mostly due to stealth technology and the other instruments that are not seen nor known of to the public, not the "fuse" itself)

Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
I've been wondering about the 787 engines on the A350. Can they really just take engines designed for a Boeing product? Didn't Boeing pay for their development in some way?

Welcome to my Respected Users, not only for the first one, but honestly, Airbus has been going pretty low lately, first they whine they need more money from the government, then they fund the US/HP merger with millions, which essentually was "buying" A350 orders, which HP/US have no use for. Interesting that Airbus cant come up with its own things.

A380= MD-12
A350= 787
A330= 767
etc.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:16 am

KC135R-- How exactly is Boeing's back up against the wall?

Boeing's back is up against the wall because they either come through with the 787 as advertised -- which by all means let's hope they do, even just on a technical merit basis for the industry's sake -- or they maybe go out of the airliner production business after 737NG and 777 sales peter out probably by decade's end. Big stakes indeed!

Here's the situation with the 787 - Boeing introduces it, Airbus initially counters with "the 787 will not be effective competition against the A330, we do not need to develop a new airplane to compete." Then, interest in the 787 grows so Airbus says "we will take the engines designed for the 787 and put them on the A330, efficiency will be matched close enough that we won't have to design a new airplane." Then sales begin to boom, so Airbus says "we will offer the A350, it will be an A330 derivative with a new wing, new engines, etc, etc" - but nobody buys it - well except Air Europa for 10 - so now they say "the A350 is constantly evolving, no longer an A330 derivative, it will be all new."


Actually this helter-skelter-response take on things sounds way more like Boeing PR guys' attitutes over the years to the A380, and their own 747 X Adv.

While Airbus for years likely knew they'd sure have to come up with an A300/A310 replacement at some point but had their hands full with the A380 program instead. And which now that that's way more of a done deal they can finally go ahead and also look to replace (or upgrade or whatever) the A330 along with it as well. Especially if yeah of course they do feel a bit of competitive pressure from Boeing's 787 project and recent sales sucessess alongside.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
Didn't Boeing pay for their development in some way?

No... in fact it's the other way around. The manufactures had to design engines and then submit them to Boeing. Boeing doesn't own them, have exclusive rights, etc.

Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
Can they really just take engines designed for a Boeing product?

Yup. Just like the CFM56, CF6, Trent series, PW4000 series, etc... they can fly on whatever bird the aircraft manufactures fit them to.

The GeNX on the 787 will be slightly different from the GeNX on the A350, just like the A320 uses the CFM56-5 and the 737NG uses the CFM56-7
 
Adria
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 13):
You know you keep using this expression over and over again. How exactly is Boeing's back up against the wall? Here's the situation with the 787 - Boeing introduces it, Airbus initially counters with "the 787 will not be effective competition against the A330, we do not need to develop a new airplane to compete." Then, interest in the 787 grows so Airbus says "we will take the engines designed for the 787 and put them on the A330, efficiency will be matched close enough that we won't have to design a new airplane." Then sales begin to boom, so Airbus says "we will offer the A350, it will be an A330 derivative with a new wing, new engines, etc, etc" - but nobody buys it - well except Air Europa for 10 - so now they say "the A350 is constantly evolving, no longer an A330 derivative, it will be all new."

blablablablba.....if I write every such comment that Boeing made during the last 30 years when Airbus arrived then this would be a long night Smile
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:22 am

Glom-- Didn't Boeing pay for their development in some way?

NAV20 was suggesting that too, in a reply to me a few weeks back. I don't know but not only at least to some extent I figure it's gotta be true but also I think it's sort of a nutty idea for Airbus to publicly float for their A350, unless they actually decide to have a go at making a bleedless jetliner themselves.

[Edited 2005-05-22 20:39:54]
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 19):
Oh and dont forget the 'detuned' A330 where they were going to eliminate the galley's to save weight. An idea that would be funny if it weren't so pathetic...

Dont make such stupid comments please. That would only be ultimatly considered if there was feedback from airlines that warrented it. Otherwise it wouldnt proceed. Why would airbus knowingly shoot themselves in the foot. At the early development stage of an aircraft, every possibility is explored to see where weight can be saved.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:38 am

Technologically speaking, Airbus can match Boeings all composite fuselage, no doubt about that... they are proving so with the A400M already. Quite frankly, there isn't such a big deal about it as Boeing's PR machine constantly tries to make us believe, hence the fact A. never even bothered to communicate extensively on them using all composites on their A400...
BTW, did anybody else noticed Boeing started hailing composites as THE most important revolutionary innovation on the 787 only after their first attempt with the bleedless engines was quickly shoved aside publicly by FACTS and FIGURES from the engine manufacturers?

Quoting Beauing (Reply 12):
A military application doesn't have the cost constraints that a civil airliner project has.

Indeed it doesn't, which is precisely the reason Airbus' chief engineers (when talking TECHNICAL matters, it's always a better thing to listen to them iso the sales man aka John Leahy) think composites will NOT offer the overall benefits as Boeing expects: they simply COST too much to produce and later on to maintain...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 18):
As to whether Airbus can commercially build a competitor to the 787, we have no proof yet that Boeing can commercially build the 787...

Right on the money!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
The main fan of the GE90 is carbon laminate, and only two individual fan blades have ever required replacement since EOS.

Yes, but the front fan is not the entire engine and the GE90 is notorious for being one of the most expensive engines too...
 
speedbird128
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:30 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
A330= 767

How about A300=B767???

What good is a marketplace with no competition??
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 23):
blablablablba.....if I write every such comment that Boeing made during the last 30 years when Airbus arrived then this would be a long night

Of course - they both use PR spin - and it will go back and forth and back and forth - between the two companies and between people on here. I listed those specific comments, which are true - though paraphrased - to counter the "back against the wall" comment, specifically. This is not a laundry list of all the stupid things A and B have said to or about each other.

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 21):
or they maybe go out of the airliner production business after 737NG and 777 sales peter out probably by decade's end.

This comment is ridiculous. Do you really have any evidence, or even substantial reason to believe, that Boeing will be going out of business anytime soon? I bet if I said "the A380 will be the downfall of Airbus" you would be the first to tear that comment apart - rightly so because there is no proof that is true, though - using your logic - anything is possible, isn't it? Yet here you are saying the same thing about Boeing. Don't you get it, this competitive push from one company to the other - it's what makes the industry exciting. If there was no competition we would all still be flying around in DC-3's - great airplane in its time, but boy would it take a long time to get to Asia.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
Airbus has been going pretty low lately, first they whine they need more money from the government

Why not? They would be fools not to try as long as it's legal.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
then they fund the US/HP merger with millions, which essentually was "buying" A350 orders, which HP/US have no use for.

How do you know HP/US won't have a use for a new longhaul aircraft in 2011?

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
Interesting that Airbus cant come up with its own things.

How ignorant and ridiculous. The A300 was the world's first widebody twin, the A320 family was a completely new design (which would have no market, according to Boeing), so was the A330/A340. Boeing came much later with their real competitors B737NG and B777. Better get some facts ready before you make amateurish statements. *YAWN*

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
A380= MD-12

Bull. Just because it's a full double decker it doesn't mean it's a copy of the MD-12 - which was nothing but a failed dream on the drawing board. Airbus made real what others didn't.  Yeah sure

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
A330= 767

And the B767 is just a copy of the A300, right? Give us more of that stuff, it's absolutely entertaining.  bigthumbsup 


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
BTW, did anybody else noticed Boeing started hailing composites as THE most important revolutionary innovation on the 787 only after their first attempt with the bleedless engines was quickly shoved aside publicly by FACTS and FIGURES from the engine manufacturers?

BTW, did you ever notice that it was the engine manufacturers who pushed for bleedless engines. This argument is getting old from the Airbus-bigot crowd. Boeing said the engine will be bleedless and it will be 15% more efficient then current engines in its size class. Which GE still says is true. They did not ever say "making it a bleedless engine will make it 15% more efficient" - Next...

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
Yes, but the front fan is not the entire engine and the GE90 is notorious for being one of the most expensive engines too...

Gee, I wonder why one of the most advanced, and the highest thrust producing engine in the world would be expensive? Stupid GE.  sarcastic 

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
Right on the money!



Quoting Beauing (Thread starter):
Leahy at Airbus concedes that Boeing may have solved the riddle of making large, one-piece barrels.

"I believe if they say they're going to do it, they will," he said.

If Leahy can be grown up and concede Boeing will do it - then shouldn't you too? They already have made one (maybe more by now) sections for testing. What we do know is that from all public statements, including the one above, Airbus seems reluctant to use composites on a larger scale whereas Boeing is doing it. Stick to the facts folks.
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
the GE90 is notorious for being one of the most expensive engines too...

For crying out loud, it also the largest and most powerful.
 
jeffrito
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 4):
The A400M has a composite fuselage and a higher percentage of composites overall than the B787, so yes they can.

I only find mention of wing parts, control surfaces, etc. as composite components on the A400M. Could somebody point me to a discussion of the composite fuselage?
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:09 am

KC135R-- I listed those specific comments, which are true - though paraphrased - to counter the "back against the wall" comment, specifically.

Subpart (a), notation "q"... relax KC135R, this whole thread here right from the get-go is completely zany anyway! Not to admit it --and play along accordingly-- is maybe being overly blind or stick-in-the-mud or somepin'  fluffy 


Do you really have any evidence, or even substantial reason to believe, that Boeing will be going out of business anytime soon?

Exactly what future in the jetliner biz for the next decade does Boeing have right now, but for the 787 alone?! So there y'have it! They gotta make it work or else it won't be looking good for them. And Airbus why of course if the A380 had or has showstopping problems then they'd be in trouble too, there's no denying that either. The difference at this point anyway though is that the 380's had several dozen evidently-successful flight test hours already while the 787 is still at best 2 whole years away from first taking to the skies.

(the jumbo Vought/Alenia autoclave in S.C. isn't even going to be ready before late Q1 2006 so they can't even roll the plane out before about Super Bowl time 2007 at the earliest. And hope for first flight by late spring early summer of that year)


CFRE-part defect count scaling volumetrically as it does it's a whole unknown territory to see how the intended fuse sections turn out. Even you gotta admit there's lots of stuff Boeing doesn't know yet, and therefore at least some major risks ahead for 'em.
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 25):
Dont make such stupid comments please.

The stupid comment was made by Airbus, when they made this suggestion.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
they simply COST too much to produce and later on to maintain...

For Airbus this appears to be true. Boeing says they have solved the COST problem on the 787 and will never build another all new aircraft family with an aluminum fuselage.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 33):
Even you gotta admit there's lots of stuff Boeing doesn't know yet, and therefore at least some major risks ahead for 'em.

Of course, I said it before - I am glad they stopped playing it safe, which got them nowhere, and are headed back more to the days of the 707 and 747 - when risk taking is what made them what they are today. I wouldn't have it any other way, as an aviation enthusiast. That being said, they are not idiots, they historically have given the airlines what they promised - I doubt this will be any different.

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 33):
And Airbus why of course if the A380 had or has showstopping problems then they'd be in trouble too, there's no denying that either.

Trouble, yes - gone, NO! If they don't recoup the R & D money on the A380 they will have problems - but trust me, with one big company in the US and one big one in Europe - neither will be "allowed" to fail - if you know what I am saying!  Wink

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 33):
Subpart (a), notation "q"... relax KC135R

Oh, I'm relaxed - it's a lovely Sunday afternoon here in the Pacific NW. I just won't let some of you get by with saying anything you want to try to deter from the facts. Unless, of course, you have some way to back it up.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:21 am

KC135R--Boeing is doing it. Stick to the facts folks.

Yeah, like Boeing sort of has its back up against a wall here and so doesn't have much choice in the matter but (to their credit) at least is not rolling over and is going for the gusto and a bit of a hail-Mary here instead!

They already have made one (maybe more by now) sections for testing.

A few weeks back I asked a few times around here whether anybody had any idea when 'test fuselage mini-section #2' would be spotted or announced or whatever (seeing as how it's been over 3 months now since test fuselage mini-section #1 was unveiled to much fanfare, and not much word at all since). I'll have to go check who exactly it was but someone replied basically that "AFAIK there've been a few sections done now, after all they're supposed to have a number of them done this year", the latter part of which yeah that's sure what their plan is all right. No PR word about it though from them yet so I guess they're still majorly experimenting with the initial process techniques and logistics.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 36):
Yeah, like Boeing sort of has its back up against a wall here and so doesn't have much choice in the matter

Really, still???  banghead  It just goes to show, you can't reason with the unreasonable.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
Yes, but the front fan is not the entire engine and the GE90 is notorious for being one of the most expensive engines too...

Well duh... I don't know of any combustors made of carbon laminate, but the main fan is one of the most stress-bearing components. It must withstand FOD injestion, bird strikes, ice damage, all while spinning at a laxidasal pace of several hundred miles per hour. Carbon laminate is being used further in the GeNX engine, including the entire fan casing.

Hate to break it to you, but per ship set, the GE90 engines is also one of the most economical in service.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
Right on the money!

There is no inherent reason to think composite is more expensive, except John Leahy's forgone conculsion to think so...
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 26):
composites will NOT offer the overall benefits as Boeing expects: they simply COST too much to produce and later on to maintain...

...Can you provide some data to back up that proclamation?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:39 am

KC135R-- and are headed back more to the days of the 707 and 747 - when risk taking is what made them what they are today.

Generally I'd agree with that, except that the stakes are rather higher for them this time around with a bit more of a 'perfect storm' of challenges confronting them: technical, commercially and even geopolitically to some extent. Good of 'em to lead the way with the technical effort at least though, at the moment.


I wouldn't have it any other way, as an aviation enthusiast. That being said, they are not idiots, they historically have given the airlines what they promised - I doubt this will be any different.

Fair enough. From an enthusiast standpoint particularly it'd be awesome if they come through, and particularly so if on-time and (more or less) on-budget to boot. It'll be an interesting next couple of years in the industry, no question.


with one big company in the US and one big one in Europe - neither will be "allowed" to fail - if you know what I am saying!

Well that's it, yes --and all those folks around here crowing about how Boeing is so "private industry, no political shielding or lobbying for it whatsoever, no sirree" maybe will pipe down at least a notch about it, too  Smile However even with a Boeing that's 'not allowed to fail', it still might not be much in business in non-U.S. of A. markets in several years if Heaven forbid there are showstopping issues cropping up for the 787. For Let's face it if there were first a Sonic Cruiser song and dance and then an undelivered 787 after that, Planetwide confidence in the company wouldn't be that strong at all.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 40):
Heaven forbid there are showstopping issues cropping up for the 787.

But you are assuming that will happen. As I pointed out before, there is no reason to doubt (based on historical facts) Boeing will deliver anything less than what they promised. Will there be some problems? Perhaps, that's normal - development will likely hit some snags - but to assume there will be a showstopper is pessimistic, at best - or blind loyalty to the other side, at worst.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:46 am

KC135R--Really, still???  banghead    It just goes to show, you can't reason with the unreasonable.

Hey, hey, easy. Relax, remember?!  cool 

(especially given that you gotta admit this whole thread topic right off the bat is a joke anyway. "Is Airbus able to build a composite fuselage?" Well KC135R, what do you figure... are they?  Smile )
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 42):
Well KC135R, what do you figure... are they?

Well, as my mother always said: if you put your mind to it you can do anything!  Smile

Seriously, I would suspect that they would be able to. But, the question raised in the initial post is as much about "will they?" as it is about "can they?" Perhaps the thread title is misleading. What I can tell you is this, IMO, they probably can - but maybe they aren't quite there yet. There is some reason that they have such an aversion to the composite fuselage, I can't figure out what it is.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:00 am

KC135R--But you are assuming that will happen.

No KC135R, just pointing out there're major challenges is all (and mostly to folks around here who might start looking to book 2008 tickets on the thing as if it's been certified already or something  Smile

As I pointed out before, there is no reason to doubt (based on historical facts) Boeing will deliver anything less than what they promised.

I'm just pointing out that they don't have either the kick-ass global-dominant (gung-ho Apollo-era) market influence they had in the 707 and 747 days, or for that matter the relative technical leadership monopoly either. So to some extent they're in unprecedented times in their history right now.

Will there be some problems? Perhaps, that's normal - development will likely hit some snags - but to assume there will be a showstopper is pessimistic, at best - or blind loyalty to the other side, at worst.

Fair enough. And that conclusion necessarily--and even more easily, I might add-- applies to the utterly-zany title of this whole thread right here as well then  fluffy 
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 43):
There is some reason that they have such an aversion to the composite fuselage, I can't figure out what it is.

Yeah, neither can I, KC135R.

I suppose they might be concerned about cultivating a "me too" corporate image, but I can't imagine this would outweigh the benefits modern carbon composite airframe technology offers.

If that's the case, and they allow pride to overshadow reason and logic, they deserve everything they get.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 44):
I'm just pointing out that they don't have either the kick-ass global-dominant (gung-ho Apollo-era) market influence they had in the 707

Boeing was a failure in the commercial market prior to the 707 being introduced - it began their ascent to the top. Once they did gain ground, not only did they surpass their biggest rival (the former "golden boy" of commercial aviation) - in 1997, they acquired them.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
If that's the case, and they allow pride to overshadow reason and logic, they deserve everything they get.

If that is the case, I couldn't agree more with you.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:15 am

KC135-- What I can tell you is this, IMO, they probably can - but maybe they aren't quite there yet. There is some reason that they have such an aversion to the composite fuselage, I can't figure out what it is.

Making a "one (or two) of" is easy! (witness january-unveiled Boeing 787 test-fuselage mini-section #1, for instance).

Making a whole bunch of 'em --that are also way bigger and hence way-more-defect-prone-- on a commercial assembly-line basis and for marathon-runner-of-the-airplane-universe long-range widebody jetliner duty, is not easy!

And maybe not even worthwhile either, who knows. Boeing doesn't even know yet. Though more power to 'em for trying and showing everybody something new at least. And which if they do succeed as advertised it will of course pay off bigtime and they will be sort of heros in the industry for a good long while. So there is a huge upside potential for them should they break through, there's no doubt about that.
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:30 am

2H4-- I suppose they might be concerned about cultivating a "me too" corporate image, but I can't imagine this would outweigh the benefits modern carbon composite airframe technology offers.

If that's the case, and they allow pride to overshadow reason and logic, they deserve everything they get.



As long as this is a totally-zany thread topic anyway, I guess left-field speculations like this and hubris musings alongside just fit right in with the general spirit of things  sun 


It does seem like Airbus is at least somewhat skittish about the idea though, for whatever reason. Frankly I think a big part of it is just that A380 stuff tied so much of their resources up until very recently. And in which case if that's all it is then why they're really into the A350 work now in a big way. The months ahead from them should prove interesting in their own right.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

Mon May 23, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 47):
Boeing doesn't even know yet.

Do you really think they are rolling the dice to that extent?

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 47):

And maybe not even worthwhile either, who knows.

By unanimous agreement and little hesitation, Boeing selected composite construction because by all indications composites are:

- Cheaper to manufacture with unparalleled q.c.
- More versatile for a wider array of applications
- More durable and easier to maintain
- Offer increased comfort to passengers

The fact that Boeing hasn't even considered an alternate path other than composite is a fairly strong indication that they are confident in this technology. Boeing raised the bar with the 777 and ETOPS, they are raising the bar again with the 787 and carbon laminate.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AdsBot [Google], American 767, AT72, Baidu [Spider], chiad, CRJ900, dsandson, eidvm, flyboy80, Google [Bot], jeffrey0032j, jpetekyxmd80, KarelXWB, LLA001, msycajun, sassiciai, TUGMASTER, ty97, vv701, Yahoo [Bot], YYJTurk and 291 guests