Is Airbus Able To Build A Composite Fuselage?

ComeAndGo · Fri May 27, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 147):
Hmmm....yeeeeah, I don't remember seeing Hexcel Prepreg "anywhere else"...

Hexcel Prepreg used on Sailplanes ???
High Tech. WOW

Boeing is using T800 carbon fiber the same it used on the 777 in the mid '90. That would make the material 10 years old and according to your belief system obviously obsolete.

ComeAndGo · Fri May 27, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 149):
You are incorrect, sir. Remember the Raytheon Premier I've mentioned several times now? It has a carbon fiber composite fuselage. Not to mention all of the military applications. The only difference seperating the military applications is cost....which is decreasing very rapidly.

Yes but …
The premier is a rather small plane that was introduced 4 years ago not 7. It certainly small in size and I wonder how that compares to a 787 or A350 flying 20 hours a day.

By the way, if you were to check Raytheon's web page you would notice that there is a much larger Hawker Horizon business jet also with a carbon fiber fuselage.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 149):
That's a fine point, but the industry has been there and done that. Again...don't forget the Raytheon Premier and many military aircraft.

The military jets don't have a pressurized fuselage. The Typhoon combat aircraft is completely out of composite materials. So, does that mean that Airbus can build a composite fuselage that meats 20hr a day operational usage. No it does not. It's a totally different thing.

ComeAndGo · Fri May 27, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 149):
Do you actually think they would have received support and funding if the the likelyhood of success was as shaky as you suggest?

It is shaky. And a large part of financial support is from two Japanese airlines who in turn like to buy Japanese. It is very possible that the 787 ends up being much heavier than originally planned.

2H4 · Fri May 27, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 150):
That would make the material 10 years old and according to your belief system obviously obsolete.

No, according to my belief system, that would make the material 10 years old and obviously proven.

Relax, take a deep breath, and accept the fact that mean old Mr. Carbon Fiber isn't going to kill thousands of 787 passengers.

Wink

2H4

norcal · Fri May 27, 2005 11:06 am

ComeAndGo-
If no one ever took risks to develop new materials for a/c, then we would still have wood and cloth planes!!!! This is just the next step, don't fear the future. There probably will be some teething problems, but both Airbus and Boeing are increasing the use of composites in their a/c. Both have faith in them. This isn't the early pioneering days of aviation with people building stuff out of their garages. These are multi-billion dollar companies who bet the farm every time they develop a new a/c. Its a risk, but they wouldn't be doing it if they hadn't done thier hw, especially considering how conservative Boeing is. Have a little more faith in them.

Edit: Forgot to say that I think Airbus is perfectly capable of developing this technology to make a composite fueselage.

[Edited 2005-05-27 04:08:32]

ComeAndGo · Fri May 27, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 153):
Relax, take a deep breath, and accept the fact that mean old Mr. Carbon Fiber isn't going to kill thousands of 787 passengers.

Either …

1 The plane falls apart in mid-air

or

2 The fuselage skin on the 787 is made of aluminum like the A350.

When Lotus built their first sports car in Aluminum they glued the parts together. The customers were terrified and subsequently Lotus riveted the joints to appease customer concerns. If the airlines don't buy the plastic fuselage Boeing will have no choice.

Anyway that special aviation carbon fiber is T800 and anybody can buy it anywhere.

I think you made your point and I made my point and its useless to continue to pull our hair out.

Aviation and Space Exploration has pushed the envelope of technology and will continue to do so in the future.

Who knows, one day we may be flying in paper planes.

iwok · Fri May 27, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 135):
So are we going to test that first plastic plane for 20 years?

Many graphite composite airplanes have been in the air, or under test since the 70's (F117, B2 etc.)

BTW, your use of the word "plastic" is incorrect. Plastic is another name for a polymeric material such as ABS, Teflon etc. A composite is a material composed of at least two totally different materials. Ie, GLARE is an aluminum-plastic laminated composite material. A graphite composite is composed of graphite fibers, (by far the strongest material in the world, after diamond) and an expoxy resin. Since graphite is not a polymeric material, but crystaline, the word plastic does not apply.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 144):
The sinking of an America's Cup yacht after cracking its hull is because, at that level of competition, the designers are cutting margins close to get the weight down, and sometimes they go too far. No one claimed it was an inherent flaw of the material or workmanship. Design of an airliner intended to fly tens of thousands of flights over decades will be more conservative.

Absolutely correct. Unlike airplanes which are designed for almost infinite frame life, high performance yatchs are designed for a few trips around the world. Hence it would be the designers wet dream if the boat would collapse right at the finish line. This would mean that he had struck the right balance between weight and structrual strength.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 145):
The Premier is also a small and cheep entry model.

First you complain that the B2 is too expensive, then you complane that the Premier is too "cheep." Yeah sure

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 155):
Anyway that special aviation carbon fiber is T800 and anybody can buy it anywhere.

Anyone can buy it.. sure.. but it takes a boatload of knowhow and $ to get it into a repeatable manufacturing process.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 155):

1 The plane falls apart in mid-air

or

2 The fuselage skin on the 787 is made of aluminum like the A350.

I think this qualifies as a "forward looking statement." To each his own.

-iwok

ComeAndGo · Fri May 27, 2005 3:05 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 156):
Absolutely correct. Unlike airplanes which are designed for almost infinite frame life, high performance yatchs are designed for a few trips around the world. Hence it would be the designers wet dream if the boat would collapse right at the finish line. This would mean that he had struck the right balance between weight and structrual strength.

America's Cup boats are sold and reused all the time. Some of the boats go through four years of training, one year of disqualification races and eventually make it, or not, to the final race. Then they are sold and start over. Your claim is false.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 156):
Many graphite composite airplanes have been in the air, or under test since the 70's (F117, B2 etc.)

Read the rest of the posts.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 156):
First you complain that the B2 is too expensive, then you complane that the Premier is too "cheep."

So you are going to compare either of the two to a jetliner that sees 20hr service a day? Please …

According to your argument a Cessna 172 and a 747 share the same materials.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 156):
Anyone can buy it.. sure.. but it takes a boatload of knowhow and $ to get it into a repeatable manufacturing process.

The point of the discussion was SPECIAL aviation grade carbon fiber.

trex8 · Fri May 27, 2005 10:45 pm

I have no clue if A can build a composite fuselage but there is a track record for Mitsubishi having significant problems making the composite wingbox for the F2 and they are supposed to be designing and building the wingbox for the 787. You can either say thats excellent planning on Bs part to get the most experienced people doing it or you can bet good money the 787 will be delayed because of problems with the wingbox because scaling up from a F16 clone to a 787 sized plane is going to be no easy task!

DAYflyer · Fri May 27, 2005 10:49 pm

I think that Airbus is fully capable of launching such a program. However, they lack the will to do so at this time.

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