User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3329
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:15 am

I ask this because Airbus is going to be a prime investor, and we all know what THAT is a euphemism for: The next orders for aircraft will be Airbus.

Chris in NH
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:23 am

Read the merger docs closely: there's no need for euphemism - US *MUST* order/take delivery of A320s and A350s as part of the deal:

"70. Under the Airbus MOU, the Debtors have agreed to assume their existing
Airbus purchase agreements, the A319/A320/A321 Purchase Agreement and A330/A340 Purchase Agreements, in connection with their emergence from their pending Chapter 11 Cases, which agreements will be amended to delay the delivery schedule for the respective aircraft. The Airbus MOU similarly provides for a delay in the delivery schedule for the A319 and A320 Purchase Agreement between Airbus and America West and the application of certain existing pre-delivery deposits.

71. The Airbus MOU further contemplates that upon their emergence from the
Chapter 11 Cases, the Debtors and America West (together, the “Buyers”) will purchase twenty (20) A350-800 aircraft. In consideration for their commitment to purchase the A350 aircraft, Airbus shall provide the Buyers with a $250 million senior secured line of credit, which may be utilized in part for payment of designated obligations of the Debtors and otherwise for
general corporate purposes, and has also agreed, upon the satisfaction of certain conditions precedent, to provide certain back-stop financing in connection with the Buyers’ purchase of the A350 aircraft."

[Edited 2005-05-23 02:27:54]
Live life to the fullest.
 
gothamspotter
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:54 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:27 am

How exactly would Boeing "fight" the merger? Both airlines already have a ton of Airbii anyway.
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 2):
How exactly would Boeing "fight" the merger?

By teaming up with a legacy carrier and offering a financial package to US complete with 787s.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:31 am

As B are and will be involved in similar mergers / re-structure initiatives later this year, it would come as an incredible surprise to those involved in the process if they do raise anything more than a token objection.

And as said before, you need to read the detail if/when it's released. It's not as simple as HP require aircraft / order A aircraft. There are conditional events. And the A deal is only one of a multitude of similar creditor / supplier deals, which involve new credit, debt forgiveness / extended repayment plans, credit guarantees, etc.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 1):
The Airbus MOU further contemplates that upon their emergence from the
Chapter 11 Cases, the Debtors and America West (together, the “Buyers” Wink will purchase twenty (20) A350-800 aircraft. In consideration for their commitment to purchase the A350 aircraft, Airbus shall provide the Buyers with a $250 million senior secured line of credit

I still strongly believe this has bad idea written all over it, for all parties involved.
-The new US Airways gets 20 airplanes that, to date, no one else has expressed much interest in.
-Airbus invests 250 million in a potentially doomed company, the larger half of which has twice been in bankruptcy protection in the last 3 or 4 years.

Perhaps they will prove me wrong - it seems the only one guaranteed to benefit from this deal, of the 3 parties involved, is US - since it will delay, or stop, what likely would have otherwise been inevitable. I have a feeling they will suck HP down with them instead of HP bailing out US, but it's just a feeling - nothing more.

OOPS - I forgot to answer the original question. I do not think Boeing will fight it - there's a chance that this whole fiasco will benefit them in the long run, so why fight it? A. I don't know they would have any ground to stand on, and B. I don't really see how it hurts them, HP and US both have made it pretty clear what manufacturer they are loyal to.

[Edited 2005-05-23 02:58:17]
 
cat3ils
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:47 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 1:15 pm

Its a risky business to get involved in the financing of cash strapped carriers in a volatile market. This is such a sensitive market with Airbus getting their reward with future orders. The fragile state of these carriers would be concerning if it were my monies. Another terror attack in the U.S. and all the airlines would be in trouble. BK courts could come in and nullify these contracts in the future. If it were my business. I wouldn't touch an airline with a ten foot pole. Except WN that is...
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 1:42 pm

So, once again, it doesn't bother anyone that Beoing invested quite heavily in Airtran - just before Airtran ordered 737's?

http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20010416b.shtml

Or, once again, is it one law for Airbus and another one for Boeing?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
4holer
Posts: 2724
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 1:46 pm

If the A350 is as much of a dud as some people say, and if this deal commits Airbus to building the A350, then one would think that Boeing would be thrilled with the deal. This would guarantee them a superior product for 10-15 years, right?  Wink
Not to mention a quarter of a billion dollars out of the Airbus piggy bank.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
777ER
Crew
Posts: 9853
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 2:45 pm

71. The Airbus MOU further contemplates that upon their emergence from the Chapter 11 Cases, the Debtors and America West (together, the “Buyers”) will purchase twenty (20) A350-800 aircraft. In consideration for their commitment to purchase the A350 aircraft, Airbus shall provide the Buyers with a $250 million senior secured line of credit
Yip Airbus is now getting really desperate

is it one law for Airbus and another one for Boeing?
Considering both companys are in different countrys, then yes they both have different laws
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:24 pm

Yeah anyways.... with this merger and Airbus selling there own a/c and buying them with the French governments money when US gets ready to buy the a/c Boeing can scream unfair practice like Airbus does everytime they lose a big orders. Although 250million gets you nothing at Boeing but an entire fleet at airbus. So no, Boeing does not care and do not want French money. That and they do not have to buy carriers to sell there a/c like Airbus does.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
is it one law for Airbus and another one for Boeing?
Considering both companys are in different countrys, then yes they both have different laws

You miss the point - I meant the laws of behaviour among these posters.

They will condemn Airbus for doing something Boeing has done.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:35 pm

Boeing will fight it if it is financially beneficial to fight it. Not in a big way, just in a "friend of the court" filing or such, which will be reviewed by anti-trust regulators.

Anyway, US and HP were buying Airbuses anyway, as others have said. HP wasn't gonna buy any 787s, and US was going to go bankrupt. So Boeing isn't losing any sales here, Airbus is just "creating" sales by paying for them, right?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Airbus is just "creating" sales by paying for them, right?

$250 million doesn't pay for too many A350's.

GECAS - the subsidiary of General Electric - will be paying for a lot of them.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:19 pm

Gee, let's not learn from history and make two smaller failing companies into one gigantic failing company. Anyone here remember Penn Central or even know what it was?
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
keesje
Posts: 8591
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Mon May 23, 2005 4:39 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
They will condemn Airbus for doing something Boeing has done.

Mariner, agree with you. The financially powerful OEMS have been involved in "assisting" weak airliners financing new equipment for a long time. When airlines go under bankruptcy protection their influence usually rises even more. (e.g UA, AC, US..)

This Airbus-US/HP deal is one off many similar deals. This one being picked out as a new development is non-sense IMO.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JMV
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 14):
Anyone here remember Penn Central or even know what it was?

The failed result of the merger of the Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads, which was eventually taken over by the US government and renamed ConRail. Oh, wait. That was a rhetorical question. Sorry.  Smile

I say let the merger go through, and let those wanting to invest to invest. Time will tell if this is a wise merger and investment or not.
Google begins where my brain ends! ©
 
akelley728
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting JMV (Reply 16):
Quoting 57AZ (Reply 14):
Anyone here remember Penn Central or even know what it was?

The failed result of the merger of the Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads, which was eventually taken over by the US government and renamed ConRail. Oh, wait. That was a rhetorical question. Sorry.

So in ten years we'll see the gov't take over the combined US/HP and will rename it ConAir? Oh wait, we've already had one of those!  Smile  Smile
 
kyair
Posts: 339
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 17):
So in ten years we'll see the gov't take over the combined US/HP and will rename it ConAir? Oh wait, we've already had one of those!

Ya know, we could if John Travolta replaced Nick Cage in the starring role!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:00 am

US Air: Dumb

America West: Dumber

Airbus: Dumbest.

Not only will they be out $250 Million in a couple of years, but they will have a ton of money sunk into lots of airframes they will have to re-sell, likely at a hefty discount to avoid another loss.
One Nation Under God
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2118
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:04 am

I would think that the way for Boeing to "fight" the arrangement (if they so desired) would be to make a better offer. A $250 MM secured loan seems like a pretty cheap way to secure orders to me.

I get very tired of the bashers on both sides clogging up every thread with the same tired vitriol.
 
starrion
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:11 am

Airbus is trying to forestall a bunch of Busses getting parked in the desert. By helping AWA salvage what is salvageable at US they will lengthen the amount of time the aircraft return to the market as the newly formed US dumps routes and assets a la TWA. So as the leases on the aircraft expire they get returned, AWA continues to take the aircraft they committed to, and Airbus gets a North American customer for the A350.

Worst case: the planes end up on the market anyway, and Airbus has to re-allocate the A350's to someone else plus being out the 250m.

I think that AWA will get rid of enough money-losing routes and dump enough aircraft to keep the whole thing afloat.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 19):
Not only will they be out $250 Million in a couple of years, but they will have a ton of money sunk into lots of airframes they will have to re-sell, likely at a hefty discount to avoid another loss.

do you really think that airbus cares about $250 million? that's money they can borrow at no interest for a 30 year term, with no payments back to subsidizing governments until their deal with US/HP makes them money.

airbus can throw money around all over the place with no fear whatsoever about real-world business projections. that's the glory of being state subsidized! it's why amtrak has never gotten serious about making a profit.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 22):
airbus can throw money around all over the place with no fear whatsoever about real-world business projections. that's the glory of being state subsidized!

So when Boeing invested in Airtran - just before Airtran ordered too many 737's - that was a sound commercial decision?

If so, why is Airtran trying to off load some of those 737's through sublease?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GVROYphx
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:01 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:29 am

Boeing had its chance...
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting 4holer (Reply 8):
If the A350 is as much of a dud as some people say, and if this deal commits Airbus to building the A350, then one would think that Boeing would be thrilled with the deal

Bingo...  Wink
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 5):
The new US Airways gets 20 airplanes that, to date, no one else has expressed much interest in.

Sounds ridiculous considering huge A320 family order backlog:
Orders: 3494
Deliver: 2430
Backlog: 1064

Source: http://www.airbus.com/media/orders_n_deliveries.asp
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:44 am

What happens if the A-350 never gets built?

Does this pave the way for a Boeing bail out of UA?
 
su184
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:48 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:56 am

I remember Boeing did the same back in the 80's, they invested in UAL parent during the hard times of deregulation, after they ordered 110 737-300's. So whats new here?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
Does this pave the way for a Boeing bail out of UA?

For the order to go through, Airbus must, of course, build the aircraft.

However - if it does not meet strict performance guarantees, HP/US is free to go straight to Boeing.

Presumably, HP/US would have to pay off the loan - if they hadn't already done so - but if they can't raise money by 2011, the whole deal was a waste of time anyway.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):

So when Boeing invested in Airtran - just before Airtran ordered too many 737's - that was a sound commercial decision?

no.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 30):
no.

Okay, so this sort of stuff happens all the time.

Aircraft manufacturers do not generally fund aircraft purchases, others do that. In this case, it is believed that GECAS will fund the A350's.

However, sometime, to get a deal when no one else willl step up to the plate, the aircraft manufacturers, through their finance arm, will fund.

Boeing Capital, for example, funded Midwest's acquisition of the 717. In part this was to keep Midwest flying but in part iot was to continue the 717 production line.

We've already looked at Boeing;'s financial involvement with Airtran.

Airbus Finance funded, on its own, Frontier's purchase of the first A318's.

When Frontier needed $70 million for its ATSB guaranteed loan, $60 million of it came from West LB, a German bank based in Hamburg.

The same Hamburg where Airbus makes the A319's and A318's. Would it be foolish to think that Airbus did not introduce Frontier to the bank?

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 22):
that's the glory of being state subsidized!

It has nothing to do with state sudsidy. It is standard operating proceedure. On both sides of the Atlantic.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 22):
airbus can throw money around all over the place with no fear whatsoever about real-world business projections. that's the glory of being state subsidized! it's why amtrak has never gotten serious about making a profit.

Read this

http://igeographer.lib.indstate.edu/pritchard.pdf

Proposed launch funding for the Boeing 7e7.

Funding Source ----- Millions $ Item -------- Launch Aid ---- WTO Status

State of Washington $3,200 Final Assembly Production Subsidy Actionable

State of Kansas $200 Nose and Cockpit Interest Free Bond Actionable

Japanese Government $1,588 Wing and Fuselage Production Subsidy Prohibited

Italian Government $590 Rear Fuselage Production Subsidy Actionable

747 Special Freighters $500 Production Transport Production Subsidy Actionable

7e7 Rail Barge $16 Production Transport Production Subsidy Actionable

Supplier's Support $3,100 Non-airframe suppliers Non-Recurring Costs Acceptable

Boeing $4,200 7e7 launch funding Self Financed Acceptable

Total $13,394
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 6:18 am

$250 million doesn't pay for too many A350's.

It does when Airbus is paying for the a/c themselves with finance (money) to HP/US.

Airbus is trying to buy orders... Sad
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 33):
It does when Airbus is paying for the a/c themselves with finance (money) to HP/US.

When did Airbus say they were paying for the aircraft themselves?

Generally, aircraft don't leave the manufacturer - be it Boeing or Airbus - until the manufacturer has been paid, by the airline, by a bank or finance institution or by a leasing company.

It has been said thast GECAS will be providing most of the financing for the A350's, and will lease them on to HP/US.

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 33):
Airbus is trying to buy orders... 

And what was Boeing doing when it invested in Airtran?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
It has nothing to do with state sudsidy. It is standard operating proceedure. On both sides of the Atlantic.

there are vast differences in the ways in which airbus and boeing get funding from their respective governments. there are large outstanding loans that airbus has never paid back on the a340 development, for one. if you were getting money at no interest and with very loose rules for repayment, you might be more willing to throw money around like airbus is doing, supporting bankrupt airlines like US.

that was my original point -- the ease with which airbus can aquire capital makes them much more likely to throw money around than boeing, especially in these strange "we'll give you money if you buy our planes" situations.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:42 pm

Boeing has no grounds to object to this deal. On what basis could they "fight" the merger?

Anyway, the Airtran example posted by Mariner does not quite fit. Unlike the two airlines discussed in this thread, Airtran is a fundamentally sound business. Car makers also offer credit to customers who can pay up.

While America West is in decent shape, it is merging with an airline that was pretty close to dead. This investment by Airbus is a very different animal. Not necessarily bad, but different.
 
KC135R
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 6:38 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Thu May 26, 2005 3:54 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
Quoting KC135R (Reply 5):
The new US Airways gets 20 airplanes that, to date, no one else has expressed much interest in.

Sounds ridiculous considering huge A320 family order backlog:
Orders: 3494
Deliver: 2430
Backlog: 1064

Yes, I know about the A32S backlog - but the airplane without much interest I referred to is the A350.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18092
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Thu May 26, 2005 4:49 pm

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
for one. if you were getting money at no interest and with very loose rules for repayment, you might be more willing to throw money around like airbus is doing, supporting bankrupt airlines like US.


I'm enchanted that you think that Airbus loaning money to US/HP is "throwing money around".

I cannot think of any other occasion when they (Airbus) have "invested" in a US airline - bankrupt or otherwise - nor have they this time. It is a loan. Loans, as has been pointed out, are another matter.

Moreover, CEO Parker, at America West, knows that a very great deal of is riding on this merger - namely, his future in the industry.

He is not shy of telling Airbus that he does not want a deal - he did it with the A318's, when he could have had 'em real cheap.

If he did not want this deal, or felt that it tied his hands, he would not take it.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
the ease with which airbus can aquire capital

Airbus cannot acquire capital "with ease". It can obtain certain loans, but those loans are specifically for aircraft development, they are not for the general fund. They appear on the Airbus balance sheet as a liability and every pfennig/sou/penny of them has to be accounted for to some serious taskmasters.

Moreover, Airbus is fully aware, as are the providing countries, of the ramifications - with reagrd to the relationship with the US - of those loans.

The loans are not gioven lightly. They are not easy come, easy go and they are not the money that Airbus would be using in this instance.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-05-26 09:51:03]
aeternum nauta
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
I'm enchanted that you think that Airbus loaning money to US/HP is "throwing money around".

you don't think that airbus's investment in US is "throwing money around"?

you honestly think that it's a sound investment?

please elaborate.
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Will Boeing Fight US/HP Merger?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:04 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 10):
Boeing does not care and do not want French money.

Tell that to Air France. You just blew off one of Boeing's major customers. Nice, really nice...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: audidudi, Baidu [Spider], bonzolab, Caryjack, Channex757, Curtisman, EA CO AS, ek17, flyaas80, Google Adsense [Bot], hOMSaR, INFINITI329, jetmatt777, justplanesmart, notconcerned, PanAm_DC10, PDXFlyBoy, qf789, SyeaphanR, TailDragging, TranscendZac, USPIT10L, Viscount724, xcltflyboy, Yahoo [Bot] and 219 guests