heisan67
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CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 4:33 am

Continental announced today that are very satisfied with their EWR - OSL service and will increase the number of flights during winter season from 3 to 4 weekly flights starting this winter. Their daily service during summer will continue as today.

CO uses a B757 on this service.

It is expected that SAS will relaunch their OSL-EWR service next spring (March) using a wide body aircraft.
 
Orion737
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 4:41 am

What wide-bodied aircraft will SAS use?? 767s Big grin

Another addition to SKs plethora of aircraft types!
 
Orion737
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 4:45 am

SK should have shown an interest in resuming Oslo-EWR much sooner. They have allowed CO to build up a strong lead.

SK would have shown no interest in re-starting a long haul from Oslo if CO hadnt. I have no sympathy for SK they have ignored Norway in favour of CPH for years, they deserve to have someone else step in.
 
heisan67
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 5:50 am

SAS really has made a big mistake...ending their service...giving CO an excellent opportunity to start this nonstop service without any hard competition. Now when CO is doing very well SAS suddenly wants to start this service again...event though this time there is another carrier already flying the exact same service.
SAS has never been very happy to start any service from Oslo. Now when SAS Braathens has launched more an more nonstop service from Norwya to Europe, SAS discovers a hugh loss in passengers out of CPH since Norwegians and Swedes for for many years have been filling the SAS planes out of CPH.
 
Joost
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 6:05 am

SK operated the route unprofitable. Sounded like a lack of demand, or too much supply with the 333's. Now CO makes the route profitable with a reduced non-daily service (however offering the possibility to have daily connections by the KL-codeshare over AMS) and a smaller airplane. And now SK thinks they can enter the market, offering even more supply, and make it work. It would surprise me. Not only they are late, but they also lack the connections in OSL compared to CO in EWR. It seems like suicide...
 
kl911
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Not only they are late, but they also lack the connections in OSL compared to CO in EWR

Lol, how many connections does CO offer on OSL? Same thing...
 
ahlfors
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
Lol, how many connections does CO offer on OSL? Same thing

The point is the CO has a ton of connections on their end (EWR), whereas SK has very few on their end (OSL).
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 6:35 am

But for CO, OSL is the destination. Their new model is EWR direct to Europe destinations rather than connect to a partner. They serve Oslo, Stockholm, 3 destinations in England, 2 in scottland, 3 in the irelands, and 2 in germany with 757s (as well as seasonal CLE-LGW), and it is working well so far. They put their 762s (same density, greater range/cargo) to the cities they 752 can't reach, and they put the 764s/772s on the higher density routes like Paris, LGW, AMS, etc. The goal is to get Americans where they want to go directly without confusing connections in Europe (most Americans would rather connect in a US hub than go directly to a foreign hub and switch carriers), and also getting Europeans directly to NYC (and beyond, I suppose) without needing to connect at all. With 23 destinations and growing from EWR, it is keeping their bottom line from totally collapsing.

CO is moving their 757s to these routes at great speed. They are 16/156, with sleeper seats with private video in front, overhead video in rear (no powerports though, grrr). It's like a 727 throwback usage. And by not focusing on sending customers to London/Paris/AMS just to connect, it frees up 772s for other duty (two 752s direct will replace a 777 to a euro hub, while one 752 will allow using a 76x instead). So without buying new 772s, they are able to open new routes to Africa and Asia.

And at EWR of course, they have connections from nearly EVERY destination they serve in the US, all arriving within 4 hours of the OSL departure time, and all leaving within the OSL arrival time on the return.

I'm taking a 752 from Hamburg to EWR in August in BusFirst, so I'll get to see if the cozy factor of the 752 is a plus or minus compared to the 777 I'm taking over to Frankfurt (I'm betting it is a plus). I'm coming from LAX.

Either way, CO is much better equipped to serve OSL than SK is to serve EWR. Smaller plane + better infrastructure support + more connections throughout US.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Himmelstormer
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 6:36 am

Regarding SAS' flight to EWR from CPH, I have done the trip a few times and the flights I have been on, have never been 'packed' with Norwegians. Also, there is a much higher number of Swedes compared to Norwegians in CPH, since people in Southern Sweden is part of the airport's catchment area of 5.5 million, and therefore, fly directly out of CPH.
The Øresund region is also much more populous than Oslo(I don't know the number but my guess will be around 2-2,5 million people, if that). That's not to say that a SK service out of OSL is not needed, but to suggest that Danes and Swedes should fly via OSL instead, is maybe a bit silly.
 
Joost
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 7:45 am

Ikramerica, nice analysis. However, there are still many European cities that they don't serve direct, but through AMS or CDG. There are many European, like BUD, PRG, WAW, VIE, CPH, RIX, etc, that don't have a CO service (yet), and also some other important cities like MUC, STR, DUS, VCE, HEL, are not serviced by them, but by KL or AF.

http://www.continental.com/travel/de...on/routes/maps/co-world_200506.pdf

I see them adding some more service, but there must be a critical mass to support the flight in each town.
 
N77014
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 9):
Ikramerica, nice analysis. However, there are still many European cities that they don't serve direct, but through AMS or CDG. There are many European, like BUD, PRG, WAW, VIE, CPH, RIX, etc, that don't have a CO service (yet), and also some other important cities like MUC, STR, DUS, VCE, HEL, are not serviced by them, but by KL or AF.

http://www.continental.com/travel/de...on/routes/maps/co-world_200506.pdf

I see them adding some more service, but there must be a critical mass to support the flight in each town.

Critical mass does not always mean gross population. BRS is smaller than many of the cities you mentioned, but it has a rather wealthy base, many int'l companies in the catchment area, and close to tourism to make up for the lack of population.
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avek00
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Heisan67 (Reply 3):
SAS really has made a big mistake...ending their service...giving CO an excellent opportunity to start this nonstop service without any hard competition.

The mistake started when SK ordered 333s/343s instead of aircraft that would allow the airline to serve thinner long-haul routes.
Live life to the fullest.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Tue May 24, 2005 7:58 am

actually we serve OSL/ARN, 2 in Scotland, 3 in Ireland, 4 in England, and 3 in Germany. Plus MAD/LIS/CDG/TLV/DEL/FCO/MXP/GVA/ZRH/BRU/AMS
 
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solnabo
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 12:32 am

C´mooon, Oslo isnt a major hub in Scandinavia, right? Its CPH thats the biggest in Scandinavia..

Wonder how long CO gonna fly those narrowbody 757´s to Oslo and are they pack jammed??

In the fall the route is over, mark my words!

Micke//SE  Cool
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 1:09 am

CO headquaters is in Houston, which happens to be the oil business capital of the world.
Norway is a weathly oil producing country, lots of oil business going on in OSL even if SVG is their oil centre.
I see CO flying to Norway may have something to do with this.
Maybe that flight won't do good daily wintertime, but may keep 4 per week then.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 1:37 am

OSL is a great city for us...............its not going anywhere...........it was there last fall as well buddy!
 
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yyz717
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 2:12 am

SK has missed the boat on OSL-EWR. They could swamp the OSL-EWR by going back in with CO already on the route, resulting in losses for both carriers. This will be even worse if SK uses a 763 or 333.

If SK could not make money as the monopoly carrier on OSL-EWR, how can they hope to make money when CO is alread on the route now?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 2:54 am

IF CO is so keen on expanding and are going to cities like Oslo and Bristol, why don't they come back to Dusseldorf? They had regular DC10 and 757 for a few years and stopped in 2001. The catchment area in North-Rhine Westphalia is almost 10 million people and there are still quite a lot of big companies in the area. Also Germans love to take their vacations in the States and the connections in EWR would really make sense for CO to come back to DUS. Plus not all Germans living in NRW like going to FRA to get somewhere.

They started EWR-TXL service along with DL and I really don't think there is enough business in the Berlin for two direct flights (sorry Berliners but its true right?). Let DL have TXL. CO should move back to EWR, but not with the 757. A 767 is much better on this route.
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ikramerica
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 2:58 am

Of course CO can't cover every city in europe direct. It would be pointless to try. So they find the markets they can use, and fly direct there, and then as I stated, feed major destinations and hubs of partners (like AMS, CDG, LGW, MAD) with 777s and 764s, with some flights from IAH as well (no Madrid).

CO europe service is very seasonal, since americans fly to europe mostly in the summer. they put those 752-I versions on those routes in summer, then move them to domestic and vacation routes in winter. Scottland service stops when the whether turns chilly, for example. They also downgrade some 767 summer routes to 752 in winter, and upgrade other slimmer summer routes in winter

As an LAX resident, it's pretty clear how CO works it around the year. In the summer travel season, LAX-EWR and LAX-IAH is all 752,753,73x, many times a day.

In Winter (or as they say in germany, Winter), some of the europe routes go away, some downsize to 757s, and the LAX-EWR and LAX-IAH get a few 767s a day while the 753s that were on those routes head to high density, low cost holiday market like the carribean or beach mexico.

As for CPH, if CO felt it was a better business to fly direct there instead of Hamburg, Berlin, Oslo or Stockholm, they would do so. But since SAS has that covered with a big plane, why bother? If people really want to go, they can connect out of AMS on KLM, out of CDG on AF, etc. But if they determine that there is a market for it in the future, and they have the planes (once more 753s and 738s come on line to replace the 752 on the route it would be pulled from), CO will add more flights like CPH, MUN, VIE, etc. (though some destinations would require the new winglets and an extra belly fuel tank modification, which costs...)
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 3:07 am

Ikramerica quote "Of course CO can't cover every city in europe direct. It would be pointless to try."

I don't want CO to fly to every city in Europe....just Dusseldorf!  biggrin  It would make MY life soooooo much more convenient.  cheeky 
A330 man.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 19):
I don't want CO to fly to every city in Europe....just Dusseldorf!

For flights to the USA isn't CGN as good for you as DUS?
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
SWISSER
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
But for CO, OSL is the destination. Their new model is EWR direct to Europe destinations rather than connect to a partner. They serve Oslo, Stockholm, 3 destinations in England, 2 in scottland, 3 in the irelands, and 2 in germany with 757s (as well as seasonal CLE-LGW), and it is working well so far. They put their 762s (same density, greater range/cargo) to the cities they 752 can't reach, and they put the 764s/772s on the higher density routes like Paris, LGW, AMS, etc. The goal is to get Americans where they want to go directly without confusing connections in Europe (most Americans would rather connect in a US hub than go directly to a foreign hub and switch carriers), and also getting Europeans directly to NYC (and beyond, I suppose) without needing to connect at all. With 23 destinations and growing from EWR, it is keeping their bottom line from totally collapsing.

CO is moving their 757s to these routes at great speed. They are 16/156, with sleeper seats with private video in front, overhead video in rear (no powerports though, grrr). It's like a 727 throwback usage. And by not focusing on sending customers to London/Paris/AMS just to connect, it frees up 772s for other duty (two 752s direct will replace a 777 to a euro hub, while one 752 will allow using a 76x instead). So without buying new 772s, they are able to open new routes to Africa and Asia.

And at EWR of course, they have connections from nearly EVERY destination they serve in the US, all arriving within 4 hours of the OSL departure time, and all leaving within the OSL arrival time on the return.

I'm taking a 752 from Hamburg to EWR in August in BusFirst, so I'll get to see if the cozy factor of the 752 is a plus or minus compared to the 777 I'm taking over to Frankfurt (I'm betting it is a plus). I'm coming from LAX.

Either way, CO is much better equipped to serve OSL than SK is to serve EWR. Smaller plane + better infrastructure support + more connections throughout US.

Yes,

CO is evolving in an airline with a very clear and good strategy!
The 752WL(winglet) will be a huge succes I believe,Most 757's will be retrofitted and a large amount placed on the Transatlantic routes, also the Cabin will be updated,(PTV's, new seats et.) or so I'am told!
The free 777's will become available to Africa etc, that would be great too!

And it is true, you rather travel in style on a retrofitted 757 transatlantic to thinner destinations rather then cattle, it's more like a bigger private jet!

My choice!
What time is top of descent?
 
gothamspotter
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 4:37 am

I can't imagine sitting in coach on a 752 for 8 1/2 hours (westbound)...or even 7 1/2 hours (eastbound).
 
drdivo
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 9):
There are many European, like BUD, PRG, WAW, VIE, CPH, RIX, etc, that don't have a CO service (yet), and also some other important cities like MUC, STR, DUS, VCE, HEL

Watch for the summer 2006 service announcements later this year - you'll see a number of these cities targeted for expansion once the 75M program increases further.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 17):
They started EWR-TXL service along with DL and I really don't think there is enough business in the Berlin for two direct flights

Berlin and Brandenburg posted a substantial bounty/incentive to a US airline that offered nonstop service from the US to TXL. Both CO and DL started service partly on that basis; CO's break-even is clearly lower than DL's will be, inasmuch as a 75M requires fewer crew and has lower operating costs than the DL 763 that will be operating from JFK. I agree with you that one carrier will drop out of this market (TXL) and I am betting on the airline with the substantial New York hub and the lower CASM.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
cgnnrw
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting 2travel2know: "For flights to the USA isn't CGN as good for you as DUS?"

CGN is becomming a very important destination for LCCs. Germanwings, Hapag-Lloyd Express, DBA & Easyjet all operate from there while DUS has the traditional operations. I just assumed CO would choose DUS since it served it in the past and is familiar with the operations. To be honest either airport would be fine with me.


Quoting Drdivo: CO's break-even is clearly lower than DL's will be, inasmuch as a 75M requires fewer crew and has lower operating costs than the DL 763 that will be operating from JFK.

All may be true but I still prefer to fly at least a 767 on trans-Atlantic routes. I simply can't see myself sitting comfortably in a 757 for such a long flight....call me spoiled Smile
A330 man.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 5:36 am

yeah there are still a number of cities that dont have service.........and if we recall that Gordon had said he wanted EWR to serve around 32-35 european cities, that means we are still approaching more growth much like this summer. with only 24 and soon to be 25 in OCt. we still have a lot to goyet!!!
 
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STT757
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 9):
there are still many European cities that they don't serve direct, but through AMS or CDG. There are many European, like BUD, PRG, WAW, VIE, CPH, RIX, etc, that don't have a CO service (yet), and also some other important cities like MUC, STR, DUS, VCE, HEL, are not serviced by them, but by KL or AF.

From what I've read on the boards it's likely CO may convert all their 757-200s to their International configuration and improve the inflight equipment (ie larger BF cabin, PTVs, 757-300 style slide out seats), and base them out of EWR.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
In Winter (or as they say in germany, Winter), some of the europe routes go away,

The only Trans-Atlantic route CO does not fly year round is CLE-LGW.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SWISSER
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 24):
All may be true but I still prefer to fly at least a 767 on trans-Atlantic routes. I simply can't see myself sitting comfortably in a 757 for such a long flight....call me spoiled

what is the difference between a 767 coach to a future 757 of CO?

New seats on 757
less noise on the 757, narrowbody
personal monitor on 757, few US carriers Y 767 have them...
Less pax is simply less stress, quicker service, faster check-in...
The single ail is practically the same as a double on the 767 because of the horizontal PAX load (row) Or do you disturb the passenger sitting in the mid section row to get to the other ail?

I once thought the same as you until I took a CO BF 757 transatlantic service out of BRU, (a pity they don't operate the 757 anymore, now it's a 764...)

That where the best pond crossings I ever had!
What time is top of descent?
 
avek00
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 7:53 am

Flying an international config. 757 is no worse than the Upper Deck of a 747.
Live life to the fullest.
 
avek00
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Wed May 25, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 24):
I just assumed CO would choose DUS since it served it in the past and is familiar with the operations.

...it's familiar, alright - the route was a piss-poor performer, as has been the case for most every attempt by CO to penetrate the German market beyond EWR-FRA.
Live life to the fullest.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Thu May 26, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Avek00 "...it's familiar, alright - the route was a piss-poor performer, as has been the case for most every attempt by CO to penetrate the German market beyond EWR-FRA."

Well I know at the time CO was in DUS, UA was still serving ORD/IAD using 767s and LH had A340 service to EWR. Maybe with UA & LH no longer serving they should give it another try. I'm fully aware they need to make a profit on the route, it's just a personal wish of mine. I'm tired of always having to go to FRA to get anywhere that's all.

Also I thought all CO 767s had PTVs, etc? I still prefer a double aisle a/c on trans-Atlantic routes. However, if the seat pitch and width is significantly better then maybe I would give it a try.

Unfortantely I've never sat in the upper deck of a 747. Someday I hope this dream comes true.
A330 man.
 
slider
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Thu May 26, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Heisan67 (Thread starter):
It is expected that SAS will relaunch their OSL-EWR service next spring (March) using a wide body aircraft.

To their detriment, IMHO. Much like DL flying a 763 to TXL against a CO 757, SK will hemorrage red ink on that flight for the reason Ikr denotes below.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Smaller plane + better infrastructure support + more connections throughout US.

Exactly. OSL is about the size of Omaha when you really think about it. NW couldn't make MSP-OSL work and that was with a highly "Scandinavian" emphasis with both markets. EWR works because NYC is the single largest market there is, and brings the connections to boot.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 13):
In the fall the route is over, mark my words!

I'm your huckleberry, Micke! I'll take that bet, my friend.  Smile

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 17):
They started EWR-TXL service along with DL and I really don't think there is enough business in the Berlin for two direct flights (sorry Berliners but its true right?).

TXL has been problematic for many carriers for a long time. I don't know if part of it is post Cold War-related to be honest or what. But while FRA thrived, TXL kind of withered on the vine. I know DUS wasn't too hot either and I do sometimes wonder if there are opportunities in CGN.
 
SAS_A330-300
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Thu May 26, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 13):
In the fall the route is over, mark my words!

I don't think there will be any problems for CO at OSL as long as they are the only carrier. ARN on the other hand will be pretty tough competing with MH (744 3xweek) and SK (333 daily). Right now MH is the cheapest one offering fares from $400.
You know the gear is up when it takes full power to taxi
 
avek00
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Thu May 26, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 30):
Maybe with UA & LH no longer serving they should give it another try.

LH is still on EWR/ORD-DUS.
Live life to the fullest.
 
SWISSER
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 30):
Well I know at the time CO was in DUS, UA was still serving ORD/IAD using 767s and LH had A340 service to EWR. Maybe with UA & LH no longer serving they should give it another try. I'm fully aware they need to make a profit on the route, it's just a personal wish of mine. I'm tired of always having to go to FRA to get anywhere that's all.

Hop on the ICE, get to BRU in 2 hours and catch a US bound flight direct to ORD,IAD,ATL,JFK,EWR with DL,UA,AA,CO!
we would be honored to serve you!
What time is top of descent?
 
N77014
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RE: CO To Increase Number Of Flights To Oslo, Norway

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting SAS_A330-300 (Reply 32):
I don't think there will be any problems for CO at OSL as long as they are the only carrier. ARN on the other hand will be pretty tough competing with MH (744 3xweek) and SK (333 daily). Right now MH is the cheapest one offering fares from $400.

I don't think CO worries about filling a relatively small B757 from ARN. MH only flies 3x's a week; not an option for a J-class traveller. And we've seen how the A333 can be a liability on routes with not enough demand to fill it.

And CO offers something that neither carrier offers; huge feed possibilities from EWR, feed which dwarfs anything ARN could provide. I think SK will find the going tough in their home turf.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...

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