TP727
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Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:35 pm

I am trying to remember if there is any Russian plane currently flying for a major western airline. There´s a TUPOLEV that looks very similar to the 757, but have never heard of it operational. Does any one knows a airline that uses it?
I can only remember of those small Yaks and LETs flying in South and Central America, and in eastern Europe. But non of them are in any major colors (they are also small planes, with limited range, and most of them are old).
What are the reasons for not seeing ANTONOVs and TUPOLEVs around? Price, cost of running it, parts, lobby or what?
Russian acft makers have a tradition in the military field, but don´t seem to have it for commercial.
I do appreciate all the answers.
Thanks a lot.
TP727
 
EI321
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:44 pm

Thats the TU204 but it only flies with DHL cargo, Air Foyle have AN124s not sure where based though.

[Edited 2005-05-24 15:04:45]
 
sevenair
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:47 pm

the 757 lookalike is the TU204 I believe. But it hasnt been in service with any Western airlines. I think Domededevo use it. It has not had that many different operators to date.

Il probably be shot down for saying this, but Its simply because of the reputation, I myself know TUs are reliable and safe, but im not representitive of a majority of the flying public. Soviet airliners and airlines still have a notorious record with the general flying public. And any airline here in the UK would be crazy to have Russian aircraft operating its flights. Even the Russian airlines i.e. Aeroflot and Transaero are movign away from Russian aircraft.
 
cornish
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 2):
And any airline here in the UK would be crazy to have Russian aircraft operating its flights.

Although people in the UK don't seem to have a problem flying TU154s to Bulgaria for example. Of course if they knew it was a Russian aircraft they might think different - but as we've said before, the majority of passengers have little idea of what they are flying on...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
IL76
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:53 pm

The TU204 flies with TNT, leased...
The British company doing some contracting/marketing work for Antonov Design Bureau is called AirFoyle. They don't own any Russian aircraft.

There are no western airlines owning any Russian aircraft if you ask me.

Cheers
E
 
PanHAM
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
Thats the TU204 but it only flies with DHL cargo, Air Floyd Have AN124s not sure where based though.

TU204 is correct but it is actually TNT and not DHL who charters these and they are operated by various Russian Firms, initially Air Cairo was involved as well.

The An124 is managed by Air Foyle but operated by - I have not checked that but believe it is Volga Dnjepr.

Other exceptions was the Yak-40 with General Air in Hamburg and also with an Italian domestic carrier, both no majors.

Both TNT and Air Folye are not major western airlines, one is an Integrator the other a cargo charter airline / broker. I believe there never has been any Russian airliner with a major carrier in the west.

To adjust a Clinton word -. its the economics.....
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aviasian
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:04 pm

Perhaps Heavylift qualify as a western airline . . . and they operated AN-124s and IL-76 freighters.

KC Sim
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PRGLY
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting TP727 (Thread starter):
can only remember of those small Yaks and LETs flying in South and Central America

Just want to mention that LET is not russian aircraft but made in Czech
just fly - it is nice
 
IL76
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:14 pm

HeavyLift operated Volga Dnepr An124's.

Companies like Air Foyle, HeavyLift and Coyne Aviation all did the contracting/marketing for cargo flights, leasing Russian airplanes from small Russian and Ukrainian airlines to do individual flights. A 'middle-man' position, not really and airline owning airplanes. HeavyLift have/had some Western material though (A300, Belfast, 707). And now they seem to have popped up in Australia with the Belfast again and some 727's.

Eduard

[Edited 2005-05-24 15:16:01]
 
MH017
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:24 pm

TP727,

Do you consider Latvia a Western country ?

Than you could say, LATcharter operates with the Yak42 out of Riga  Wink
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
PanHAM
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 9):
TP727,

Do you consider Latvia a Western country ?

Than you could say, LATcharter operates with the Yak42 out of Riga

The question was "major western airline"

It has been saif about the An124, Il 76 which are managed by Coyne and others, these are not on the UK register and they are niche aircraft anyway. There is an An (74 I believe) with Channel Express out of Coventry, even painted with their markings but again, not on the UK register. afaik

No passenger type Russian a/c has ever been with a major western airline.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 10:44 pm

Quoting TP727 (Thread starter):
TUPOLEV that looks very similar to the 757

TU-204

Quoting TP727 (Thread starter):
What are the reasons for not seeing ANTONOVs and TUPOLEVs around

Fuel Guzlerrs Most of them.Expensive to run.
regds
MEL
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PRGLY
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 11:05 pm

if I m not mistaken TU154 was used by Egyptair for very short period of time
just fly - it is nice
 
cornish
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting PRGLY (Reply 12):
if I m not mistaken TU154 was used by Egyptair for very short period of time

I think I've seen pictures of an IL62 in Egyptair colours too. I suspect this was in the days of Nasser before it looked Westwards politically.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
YukonTrader
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Tue May 24, 2005 11:29 pm

Hi guys,

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Other exceptions was the Yak-40 with General Air in Hamburg and also with an Italian domestic carrier, both no majors.

That airline was Alinord, correct.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
There is an An (74 I believe) with Channel Express out of Coventry, even painted with their markings but again, not on the UK register.

The Antonov is operated by Enimex for Atlantic Airlines of Coventry, if I remember that correctly. And according to my knowledge, AAG are also involved in the deal with the Air Cairo Tu-204s flying for TNT.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
No passenger type Russian a/c has ever been with a major western airline.

That is the list for the classic Western European countries, but wouldn't for example Egypt Air during the country's flirt with the Reds count? MS operated the An-24, Il-18, Il-62 and Tu-154 for a while:

- Seven An-24 were delivered new to United Arab Airlines in summer 1965, registered SU-ANV, SU-ANX, SU-ANY, SU-ANZ, SU-AOA, SU-AOB, SU-AOC. The last four of the above were all lost in their UAA days, the three surivivors were transferred to Egypt Air in 1971 and were last reported active in 1975.

- Four Il-18D were delivered new to United Arab Airlines in 1968 / 1969, registered SU-AOV, SU-AOX, SU-AOY and SU-APC. The latter was w/o 20 Mar 1969 in Assuan, two weeks old. In 1971, the three survivors were transferred to newly formed Egypt Air after the UAA break-up.

- Eight Tu-154 delivered new inbetween Dec 1973 and March 1974, registered SU-AXB to SU-AXI (cn's 048 to 055). AXB was w/o on a training flight 09 Jul 1974, the reminder was transfered back to Aeroflot on 19 Mar 1975.

- Eight Il-62 leased from AFL from 1971 onwards, registered SU-ARN, SU-ARO, SU-ARW, SU-ARX, SU-AVL, SU-AVU, SU-AVW, SU-AWJ. The first two (ARN and ARO) even flew with United Arab Airlines markings before MS being formed, some a/c were returned after a under a year and replaced with others, so you never had all eight of them in service with MS at the same time. SU-ARN was w/o 16 Jun 1972, the last Il-62 were returned to AFL around the winter 1973/74.

Other operators of Soviet airliners in the region include Syrian Air which is to the day flying a mix of Yak-40, An-24/-26, Tu-134B-3, Tu-154M and Il-76TD along with the Airbus A320, Boeing 727-200 Adv., and the B747SP.

A couple of years ago, some Turkish operators tried their luck with Russian equipment: Greenair (Tu-134 and Tu-154) as well as Holiday Airlines (Tu-154) come to my mind.

Then we've also had combined Western / Eastern fleets with some of the airlines in mainland China, although that would be stretching the definition of what elements make an airline a "major Western airline".

There has also been a number of former Soviet airliners in Africa (TAAG Angola Il-62, LAM Mocambique Il-62 spring to mind).

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 2):
Il probably be shot down for saying this, but Its simply because of the reputation, I myself know TUs are reliable and safe, but im not representitive of a majority of the flying public.

Unfortunately yes, this is part of the problem. Legal issues, such as increasingly tight noise regulations. have blocked existing business opportunities further.

But on the other hand, there are also economic factors that speak against their operation. More often than not, the matching Russian counterpart for a Western model is considerably heavier, resulting in less appealing payload/range opportunities. Availability of spares, and the need to send the aircraft back to the factory for major overhauls is another hinderance - the above-mentionned Yak-40 operators General Air and Alinord themselves reported that this was one reason why they terminated their liaison with the Yak.

Cheers
Lukas
 
TP727
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 12:24 am

Thank you all for your answers, I did appreciate everyone.

PRGLY

I am sorry, I should know that. Once I flew in one from PLU to VIX with a friend that brought two from Czech Republic. At the time he said he had bought the plane in Russia, and took it to Czech Republic to make a few avionics adjustments. It´s a really fine acft, no question about this!

I remember seeing Aeroflot´s IL-96 in GIG. But that flight has not happened for a long time now. Too Bad!

Later
TP727
 
PanHAM
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 12:38 am

The definition of "major western airline" is certainly vague, but best be described by safety and operating standards. It is used sometimes in the annual airline safety report in Flight International and includes by definition Western Europe,North America, Australia and parts of Asia, certainly not China and Taiwan but HKG, SIN and Japan. I dont want to step on anybodies toes here but there are exclusions and Egypt as well as Syria and certainly not Turkey would qualify but there should be serious thoughts about including Dubai into the major western airline league. .
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solnabo
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 12:40 am

There´s a brand new a/c buildt in Russia that fly Moscow-Vladivostok non-stop, thats gotta be a LONG route!!

Anybody knows the range in Km, dont have the Circle Mapper in my PC....

Theres a picture of it inhere somewhere.

Thx!!

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EnviroTO
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 1:41 am

The TU214 shouldn't have the fuel and noise problems the other older Russian aircraft have had seeing as it has RR engines. The IL-96 has a model with western engines as well. I hope someone can add the photo of the TU-204/214 in Mumbai to the database while Aeroflot is using it there. It would also be nice to see Aeroflot make a purchase for more IL-96s and TU-204s with western engines... if someone is going to ensure a future for Russian airliners in the 21st century it has to be them that leads the way probably.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 17):
Anybody knows the range in Km, dont have the Circle Mapper in my PC....

Well, every PC with an internet connection has the GCM "in it", since it is browser based.
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bongo
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 4):
There are no western airlines owning any Russian aircraft if you ask me.

There are some Russian aircrafts in Western Airlines:


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notacheezyname
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 6:30 am

Isn't it a certification issue?
Any aircraft operated by a US carrier must be certified by the FAA and most, if not all, Russian built aircraft are not.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 20):
There are some Russian aircrafts in Western Airlines:

"Western" in this sense refers to the political sense, not the geographical sense. No joy.
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bongo
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 22):
"Western" in this sense refers to the political sense, not the geographical sense. No joy.

You got a point  Wink
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SFO2SVO
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 7:17 am

318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
 
Planesmart
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 8:00 am

Any airline that has to obtain finance or lease to acquire aircraft is going to experience problems if they select an Eastern European built airliner.

The cost of an aircraft is purchase price plus operation less disposal value. And here are the problems. The upfront purchase price might be low, but operating costs are something of an unknown, and disposal value could be close to zero.

Eastern manufacturers could reduce these risks as seen by financiers by offering a power by the hour type deal, with a guaranteed buyback based on hours, cycles and condition.

However, financiers would then look hard at the manufacturers financial position (would they be in a position to honour the obligations say over 10yrs?), and this would still be a likely stumbling block.

When financiers see risk, they either decline to do business, or build in a risk margin. The risk margins that would be built in to a Western airline purchasing / leasing Eastern European aircraft would, at present, make the lifetime ownership cost more expensive than a comparable Western aircraft.

An airline that could fund a purchase without outside finance, or if the manufacturer provided the finance (unlikely based on the low capitalisation), might be tempted.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 8:29 am

During the 1960s, Japan Air Lines operated Tu-114 aircraft in co-operation with Aeroflot.

A little later, KLM operated Il-62 aircraft, also in co-operation with Aeroflot.

In both cases, the Western airlines had their names painted clearly on the sides of the aircraft.

I don't know if this counts as being operated by major Western airlines, or whether it was an early version of the code-share concept.
 
flymia
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 10:41 am

Also Russian cockpits are much different from Western built ones. There are different gauges and everything is in Russian. I dont think they would make everything into english and change some of the Eastern guages. It just would not work unless it was a Russain crew. But some Russian planes like the TU-154 have 4 man crews.
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ikramerica
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:13 am

Do all their gauges go to 11 or something?
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iwok
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 2):
Even the Russian airlines i.e. Aeroflot and Transaero are movign away from Russian aircraft.

The reason that they were tending away from Ilyshin and Tupolez was that they were not certified to fly in most western countries. I believe this problem has been solved with the Il-96, and Aeroflot is starting to buy them again.

iwok
 
flyKiWi
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 27):
Also Russian cockpits are much different from Western built ones.

That's right, and not also in gauges and instruments, most of them in main navigation systems as well. Of course, they are fitted with instruments to fly in the west, many russian a/c still have the RSBN navigation system, etc. which was only used in Russia.
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EnviroTO
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 5:42 pm

Yes, both the IL-96 and the TU-214 are available with western glass cockpits and engines.
 
YukonTrader
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 6:44 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
Do all their gauges go to 11 or something?

What about cyrillic lettering and metric units, to start the complications with...

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 27):
But some Russian planes like the TU-154 have 4 man crews.



...and we could as well make that 'most Russian planes have 4 or even 5 man flightdeck crews' (the latter mainly true with dual use designs available for civilian and military users).

On a couple of tours through the CIS I have occasionally had the chance to ride on Russian planes, ranging from the An-24 to the Il-86, with the tour group almost always including at least one or two commercial airline pilots. Needless to say that they always tried and very occasionally also managed to establish contact with the flightdeck in a way which allowed us briefly into the 'office'. But in there, it even took the pros a couple of minutes to get it all together - including a few moments of disorientation. For the layman with just rudimentary knowledge (flight sim level or below  Wink ) it was impossible to get the whole picture. Just too much cyrillic on panels, switches and gauges to decypher, and that distracted you a lot...

Cheers,
Lukas
 
sterne82
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 7:44 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 31):
Yes, both the IL-96 and the TU-214 are available with western glass cockpits and engines.

Not entirely true... The IL-96M (and the T - crago version) has been presented in 1997, some orders had been placed. Those were different from the IL-96-300 with the fact that they were stretched variants powered by PW 2037 powerplants and fitted with Rockwell Collins avionics (see a post about IL-96M posted here yesterday). However the plan have never gone really far as the money needed (coming from Exim Bank) never arrived (for political and not political reasons).

So the russians had to remove the powerplants and avionics which had been replaced by indigenous equipment (notably the "famous" PS-90A powerplants). So the stretched variants with the russian equipment is called IL-96-400 M (passengers) and T (cargo). No other developments are known about those last ones.

Regarding the Tu-204; indeed it is available with western engines (RR RB-211, if I'm not mistaken) and english cockpits, but to my knowledge the "english cockpits variants" hasn't been certified yet. 5 Tu-204 (fully westernised) are slated for delivery to chinese airlines, but nothing concrete has emerged yet.

The new Tupolev for Vlad'Air are the Tu-204-300s (formerly referred as Tu-234), those are a shortened variant of the basic Tu-204 (2 rows less, I think) and is able to carry around 160 passengers on 7000 Km routes. Once again, classical PS-90A engines and russian EFIS cockpits.

Some years ago they were talking about a, once again, westernised version of this plane with a new wing... But as usual the money is still the nerve of war and the russian aren't running on gold.

This message is surely containing some mistakes, but I hope that I've been clear enough to be understood.

Regards,

Benjamin
 
YukonTrader
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Wed May 25, 2005 10:38 pm

Hi Benjamin

Quoting Sterne82 (Reply 33):
This message is surely containing some mistakes,

Not at all, especially not in terms of fundamental issues I'd be aware of! And many thanks for summing it up. If CIS airlines do have some gold left in their vaults, then the general trend seems to be rather to lease Western aircraft instead of Westernized CIS aircraft. Kaliningrad Avia reportedly eyeing the A320-family and Pulkovo awaiting its first B737-500 (scheduled for the sunday morning flight to ZRH from 5th June onwards, e.g.) are just two recent convertites springing to my mind.

Another day down the road, and we'll rather have to worry about how much life is left for the classic 'Russians', even on their own home turf.

Lukas
 
blrsea
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RE: Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines?

Thu May 26, 2005 10:22 am

New Russian airliner delivered

Quote:

MOSCOW - The first plane of a new airliner series that meets international noise and emission standards was delivered to a Russian airline on Friday, the news agency ITAR-Tass reported.


The Tupolev 204-300 has a range of 5,500 miles and conforms with international noise and emissions standards. Russian airlines that fly to destinations in the West have been forced to use non-Russian planes because previous locally made aircraft did not meet those regulations.