fubar37
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What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:34 pm

Just wondering what the 747 Adv. will be like. I don't know much about the proposed aircraft. What will be different?
 
mauriceb
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:37 pm

won't have blended winglets, will have big engines (like the 777 GE's) and will be longer, from inside it will have an aviation upgrade and 787 Interior style... it will also fly further and , ofcourse, more fuell saving...

EDIT: and if the 747adv get's launched, they will first produce the 747advF and then look if a passenger model is still attractive enought to build...

[Edited 2005-05-25 16:42:59]
 
supa7E7
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:40 pm

A mere 5 more rows would allow 50 more passengers and 12.5% better economics... obvious fact of the day.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:41 pm

It will be longer than the current B-744. There may be some use of composits. It will use raked wingtips, not the winglets on the B-744. The B-747-ADVF and passenger model B-747-ADV may use the same wing. I believe it will use the B-787 engines, too.
 
mauriceb
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:46 pm

just found this:


http://www.boeing.com/randy/pdf/747AdvCard.pdf

with pictures included. Boeing claims it will beat the A380, however i don't know in wich way they mean...


this gives you a better idea on how much bigger it is , since the extansions are darkned : http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/747a01_lg.jpg

[Edited 2005-05-25 16:50:44]
 
Danny
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Wed May 25, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 4):
just found this:


http://www.boeing.com/randy/pdf/747AdvCard.pdf

with pictures included. Boeing claims it will beat the A380, however i don't know in wich way they mean...

Cheap PR BS. They haven't designed it yet but they know it will fly cheaper than A380 (which precise economics is not known as well). Give me a break.
 
United Airline
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:06 am

Estimation maybe?????????? I suppose they did some calculations
 
Danny
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 6):
Estimation maybe??????????

Estimation and comparison between unknown and unknown.  yawn 
 
airbazar
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting Fubar37 (Thread starter):
Just wondering what the 747 Adv. will be like.

http://www.bestpaperairplanes.com/duck1.html
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:14 am

http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/747a01_lg.jpg

Changes vs 747-400 include:

Raked wingtips

11.7ft fuselage extension

Higher takeoff weight

32 more seats

Derivative 787 engines.

Here is a side-by-side against the current 747-400ER



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
NYC777
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:24 am

Wow, 4,970 mile for the 747ADV vs 8,000 for the 744ER, is that right? That doesn't sound good to me!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:26 am

Boeing claims a 19% fuel effeciency, for the B-747-ADV, over the A-380.  bigthumbsup 
 
ACDC8
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:30 am

Sorry, but maybe it's just because I'm really tired right now and I can't see straight. But those specs between the 744ER and 747ADV somehow just don't make sense to me. Am I missing something or is my brain alreay sleeping?
(I just got off night shift...  tired  )

[Edited 2005-05-25 17:31:56]
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Rj111
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:32 am

Interesting to see it weighs quite a bit more than the -400ER.
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:33 am

I do not think Boeing would produce a 747ADV with less range.. something wrong there (in the chart)
 
shankly
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:35 am

ACDC8 agree

Where did those figures come from and is that range of 4,970 really right? If so 747RET (retard) would be a more appropriate designation
L1011 - P F M
 
keesje
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:38 am

Definitely not a warmed over 747.

It will be a strong competitor despite the use of say more then 10 year old technology  Wink

It think it can fill the gab between 350-400 seat 773 & 346 and the 500-550 seat 388's. Hopefully a Combi will be available too.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
NYC777
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
It will be a strong competitor despite the use of say more then 10 year old technology

What in the hell are you talking about? It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
mauriceb
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:40 am

It think it can fill the gab between 350-400 seat 773 & 346 and the 500-550 seat 388's. Hopefully a Combi will be available too.


your afraid you won't see it at AMS otherwise?  Wink
 
Rj111
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!

Why won't it be FBW then?
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
It will be a strong competitor despite the use of say more then 10 year old technology

Hah... interesting comment! please say the right things with the right information hehe
 
N60659
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
Wow, 4,970 mile for the 747ADV vs 8,000 for the 744ER, is that right? That doesn't sound good to me!



Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 14):
I do not think Boeing would produce a 747ADV with less range.. something wrong there (in the chart)

Well, according to this document, the range of the 747Adv is to be 8000nm, so looks like the chart had a typo.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
Danny
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Boeing claims a 19% fuel efficiency, for the B-747-ADV, over the A-380.

19% lower trip cost which may be true but considering it has 25% less seats does not impress really.
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 22):
19% lower trip cost which may be true but considering it has 25% less seats does not impress really.

It is no use if you do not have enough demand (to fill the 25% extra seats) anyways
 
Danny
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 23):
Quoting Danny (Reply 22):
19% lower trip cost which may be true but considering it has 25% less seats does not impress really.

It is no use if you do not have enough demand (to fill the 25% extra seats) anyways

Sure. But manipulation is clear. To compare profitability of two planes you need to take both costs and revenues not just the costs. These aircraft are for different markets - you don't compare ERJ with 737 do you?
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:00 am

Sorry folks had to correct some info in the table:

Crrections Note:

range correction

Lower holds capacity

Cruise speeds

Sorry for the goof up.

-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 24):
Sure. But manipulation is clear. To compare profitability of two planes you need to take both costs and revenues not just the costs. These aircraft are for different markets - you don't compare ERJ with 737 do you?

What if the comparison is based on individuals? I mean, for example, they consider A380 with 550 pax and 747adv with 450 and with all the costs taken into account, 747ADV still gains a 19% more efficient in cost saving?
 
Thunderbird1
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:04 am

I thought it was more different from the -400ER than the chart seems to indicate.

It's a cool looking airplane, though, that's for sure. Let's hope Boeing goes for it...
 
Danny
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 26):
I mean, for example, they consider A380 with 550 pax and 747adv with 450 and with all the costs taken into account, 747ADV still gains a 19% more efficient in cost saving?

That would be fantastic but this is not the case. It would have to beat 787 completely then.

That is why I said initially that this document is PR BS. All nice round words "quietest jumbojet" Big grin and no details.
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:08 am

It could hehehe because they are both for different markets hehehe (sorry, I am just interested in aviation and do not know much about technical things....) :P
 
fubar37
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:51 am

Why bother with it at all. it seems silly to me to spend the dollars developing this kind of aircraft to only seat a few more people. Yes Yes i know all about the dollar per Pax stuff but to me it just seem like a waste. Airbus has created a whole new airplane. Being the avaiation buff that i am i just like to see brand new aircraft. Putting a couple more ribs in to seat 30 more people is boring. in my opinion. Bring it on.
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 1:53 am

Well, it is a matter of replacing old ones with new ones and of course the new ones must be better... hence such an aircraft
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 2:16 am

Gotta say - she's a cracking looking aeroplane - thats a seriously good looking jet!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Glom
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 19):
Why won't it be FBW then?

Because that would require major reworking and because FBW is not the be-all and end-all of aircraft technology.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Boeing claims a 19% fuel effeciency, for the B-747-ADV, over the A-380.

The 787 engines will help but that is quite the target. Boeing will have a tough time achieving that.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 1):
will have big engines (like the 777 GE's) and will be longer, from inside it will have an aviation upgrade and 787 Interior style

It hardly needs 777 sized engines. 787 sized engines will do just fine and will be much more efficient. They might improve the architecture of the inside, but it won't offer some of the improved features without a composite fuselage.
 
MarcoT
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):

What in the hell are you talking about? It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!

Would you pray tell exactly what 'advanced 787 technology' will it use, if ever launched?

I mean, apart from the obvious reingeneering with a (bleed air) version of the 787 engine. But then you wouldn't claim that a CFM-56 reingeinereed DC-8 is using 'advanced A320 technology', would you?
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
N60659
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 34):
Would you pray tell exactly what 'advanced 787 technology' will it use, if ever launched?

You could probably get some of what you are looking for here.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
zoom1018
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 3:37 am

Thank you N60659 for sharing the information.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
What in the hell are you talking about? It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!

Not in every regard. Materials technology will be, at best, late 1990s. The bulk of economic improvements are coming from (1) stretch, (2) new engines, (3) aerodynamic improvements. Compare this to the 787 which is targeting virtually every aspect of opperation...

Quoting Danny (Reply 22):
19% lower trip cost which may be true but considering it has 25% less seats does not impress really.

Depending on the opperator, that can mean 25% less risk. Right now, if you want to replace a 744, the only logical options are 773ER or A388 (or a mix thereof). This aircraft allows direct replacement with some growth, which (in Boeing's view) will appeal to some carriers.

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
They haven't designed it yet but they know it will fly cheaper than A380 (which precise economics is not known as well). Give me a break.

Actually, nearly all the critical definition has been completed as the 747-Adv borrows heavily from other Boeing projects and other 747 derrivitives.

This project is closer to the 732 being turned into the 733 than say, the A300 being turned into the A330.
 
Gary2880
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Boeing claims a 19% fuel effeciency, for the B-747-ADV, over the A-380.

and from another thread

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
How can fuel burn forecasts be confirmed after only 9 flights, when speed, altitude, weight, CG and other factors change so much?

so how can boeing know this? i dont think its something to give the thumbs up and smile about do you, that wouldnt be very fair? considering the Airbus superjumbo has flown... and boeings attempt at it has not.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
The airlines who have ordered the A-380, awaiting to see actual results to order, and those who might order years from now already know this.

hope you tell all the possible boeing buyers not to buy untill its performed over a couple of years. want to keep it fair dont we?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
Please remember the MD-11 entered scheduled service before it was found that it was discovered it did not meet performance specs.

Hopefully, the A-380 doesn't have the same problem.

think you should also add, lets hope the 747adv does not have the same problem, yes?

alright then  Smile
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
F14D4ever
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 1):
will have big engines (like the 777 GE's)

Not likely. The GE90 can produce as little as 77k pounds thrust, but not as economically as needed for this application. As shown in the graphic provided by Widebodyphotog, it'll get GEnx engines. They are the next generation replacement for the CF6-80C2BxF found on many 744's.
"He is risen, as He said."
 
Glom
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 22):
19% lower trip cost which may be true but considering it has 25% less seats does not impress really.

Trip costs, eh? How do the seat-mile costs compare?
 
ikramerica
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 8:19 am

Some technologies it will likely use from 777 and/or 787:

Higher pressure cabin
Higher humidity cabin
No-Bleed air engines
Newer wing design
Raked Wing tips
More composites (how much, who knows)
Ground strike warning system
EFB for better routing, takeoff performance
Crown crew rests in main cabin.
Crown storage areas.

Also, possibility of larger/better placed windows with LCD dimming like 787, but who knows.

Looks like it is adding 2 rows in business section (including upper deck) and two rows in economy section, which would lead to 20+14+4=38 on it's face. But by moving crew rest to the crown (like in 777) for everyone but pilots (placing pilot rest in upper deck first row with secure partition?), you could reclaim some seats downstairs AND even add a row in coach due to moving some storage up to the crown as well.

With those changes and the stretch, you could add 50 real seats fitting truly between below the 490+ A380 and the 380(-) 773ER.

That stretch will really add cargo space in the hold, too.

PS - can't wait to start seeing the 747-200/300s with the blended winglet retrofits. Those things will be 15 feet tall (5 meters), methinks!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
gigneil
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
Wow, 4,970 mile for the 747ADV vs 8,000 for the 744ER, is that right? That doesn't sound good to me!

The 744ER's range is not 8000nm. The 747ADVs is.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!

No, it isn't. Only engines.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 1):
(like the 777 GE's)

Won't be anywhere close to that big.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
Higher pressure cabin

Nope. That requires a composite fuse, the 747 won't have that.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
Higher humidity cabin

This either.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
No-Bleed air engines

Nope. Too big a change.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
Newer wing design

Only minor modifications, will be the same basic wing as the 744ER.

N
 
ikramerica
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 9:11 am

seems you have all the answers for this secret plane, tell us more please...

why would higher pressure require a composite fuselage rather than just a minor strengthening of the current design (if that, since so many things from the 60s were over engineered)? why would higher humidity require that, or non-bleed air? seems that all of these have to do with mechanical systems technology and insulation materials as much as anything, and that they were done "the old way" for so long because "that's the way we do it" is the mantra of most engineers.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 9:29 am

It's going to look better than the 744 and it's going to have a bowling alley and jacuzzi like the A380.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 9:33 am

Why are the seating numbers always wrong at the manufacturers?

The first class on the 744 is not 23 but 14.

Why do we always get inflated numbers?
 
avek00
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
Depending on the opperator, that can mean 25% less risk.

Exactly.

The 744ADV allows most current 744 operators to engage in INCREMENTAL capacity growth under existing business models versus moving into an entirely different industry genre with a plane that requires a substantial revamp in the way its operator does business.
Live life to the fullest.
 
AA777
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 42):
It's using advanced technology developed for the 787!

No, it isn't. Only engines.

....if it is using engines from the 787 that are all BLEEDLESS.... why are u saying that the 747ADV engines arent going to be bleedless? .... read your post, you will see what I mean.

-AA777
 
boeingbus
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 47):
....if it is using engines from the 787 that are all BLEEDLESS....

You are all wrong... or a half right.... the 747Adv is going to use a bleed version of the GenX family, which will be similar to what GE will do to the A350 engines.

Supposedly, RR is having many issues w/ adapting their 787 Trent's to a bleed version.... GE has fully commited to the 747Adv and A350...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
zvezda
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RE: What Will The 747 Adv. Be Like?

Thu May 26, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 43):
why would higher pressure require a composite fuselage rather than just a minor strengthening of the current design (if that, since so many things from the 60s were over engineered)? why would higher humidity require that, or non-bleed air?

For the B747 to have 6000' cabin altitude would require not only strengthening that would add weight, but new air systems that would be expensive to develop. The B747-400 already has 7000' cabin altitude, compared to 8000' for most airliners.

Higher humidity would cause corrosion in an aluminium fuselage. Composite is the only way to have higher humidity.