PPVRA
Topic Author
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TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 2:30 am

With JJs IPO coming soon, they are expecting to raise enough money to place an order with Airbus for an additional 20 A320s to be delivered until 2010 (no word on when deliveries are expected to begin).

JJ's current fleet has 33 aircraft of the type with another 10 on order which are expected to begin deliveries next year, raising the total (as soon as the order is officially placed) to 30 A320s on order.

At the same time, JJ is retiring all of their 21 F-100s by the end of 2008. There is talk about substituting the F-100s with more modern aircraft of the same class or not (TAM has an MOI with Embraer for a few years now), but "market conditions permitting only."

Additionally, CCS and LHR are on JJ's "wish list," but that's all the info available as of now about these two new potential destinations.

Cheers,
PPVRA

[Edited 2005-05-25 19:32:54]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
KL808
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 2:38 am

Great to hear TAM expanding.

Any word if they will start more services within South America like LIM?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
B742
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 2:40 am

Good news for TAM, any news on TAM expanding to N. America and Europe?

When are there 332's comming back from EY?

Rob!
 
sampa737
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 2:52 am

Great news for TAM!  Smile Bye bye, Varig.  Sad
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 1):
Any word if they will start more services within South America like LIM?

TAM plans include increase service to SCL and EZE, expand to LIM and in the near future CCS. At Brazilian business magazine "Exame" they assume TAM nowadays are more carefully in choosing their international routes.

Quoting B742 (Reply 2):
Good news for TAM, any news on TAM expanding to N. America and Europe?

When are there 332's comming back from EY?

TAM probably runs GRU-JFK in October/05 and will receive back at least 2 A332 (they have 4 in wet-lease). For the other two, they can in the future operates GIG-MIA as MIA is one of their top destinations and AA has just finish the seasonal AA980 GIG-MIA, reducing flights Rio to Miami from 12 to 7 per week. It can stop once weekly at FOR.
For Europe, i think it depends on the alliance they join. MXP could be an option as Italy-Brazil flights keeps high loads the entire year. LIS, FRA and CDG are well served (FRA and LIS are important Star Hubs). MAD could be another option (secondary).

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
erikwilliam
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 2):
When are there 332's comming back from EY?

Wasn´t to Ek that they were leased??
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 1):
Any word if they will start more services within South America like LIM?



Quoting KL808 (Reply 1):
Good news for TAM, any news on TAM expanding to N. America and Europe?

TAM's future expansion:

- Expansion of over 30% in domestic flights in March/05 alone;
- Second daily flight to CDG starting June/05;
- SCL: replace A320 for the A330 as of June/05, second daily flight in 2006;
- JFK-GRU due to start October/05;
- GIG-MIA or BSB-MAO-MIA with the A330 (no decision)
- ASU-GRU-CCS with the A319 (no decision);
- GRU-LIM with the A320 (no decision);

There are rumours that TAM is negotiating membership in OW. TAM has a longstanding cooperation with AA (apart from LAN, TAM is the only AA partner in South America!). AF-JJ cooperation has been deterioration which indicates that TAM is closer to OW as ever before.

If TAM joins OW, you may expect destinations such as MAD to be served. In the specific case of LHR, since no slots are available, I think JJ would operate under BA codeshare (BA currenty operates daily BA B747 to GRU). BA would then terminate its flight in GRU and JJ could distribute pax in Brazil, and deep South America.

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 5):
Wasn´t to Ek that they were leased??

Yes, they were leased (wet lease) to EK.

Rgs,
 
commavia
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
GIG-MIA or BSB-MAO-MIA with the A330 (no decision)

JJ would operate an A330 BSB-MAO-MIA and not an A320 like before?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
There are rumours that TAM is negotiating membership in OW.

Do you know how advanced the negotiations are purported to be? Could we perhaps see TAM becoming the tenth oneworld member (after MALEV) sometime in 2005-2006?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
If TAM joins OW, you may expect destinations such as MAD to be served.

I think JJ would be extremely successful in MAD, especially with IB feed.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
I think JJ would operate under BA codeshare (BA currenty operates daily BA B747 to GRU). BA would then terminate its flight in GRU and JJ could distribute pax in Brazil, and deep South America.

I agree. BA would dump all its non-GRU Brazil-bound passengers onto JJ internal Brazilian flights at GRU. That makes good economic sense.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
JJ would operate an A330 BSB-MAO-MIA and not an A320 like before?

You are correct. If JJ decides for BSB-MAO-MIA (as before) it would operate with the A320. However, if the decision is to boost GIG, with GIG-MIA then JJ would use the A330.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Do you know how advanced the negotiations are purported to be? Could we perhaps see TAM becoming the tenth oneworld member (after MALEV) sometime in 2005-2006?

With the break down of JJ-AF cooperation, JJ very soon will no be able to rely on AF onward feed in CDG. JJ was in a very comfortable position with mulit-partneships accross alliances. But now time has come for a decision, and it all indicates it will be OW. I would say we could expect JJ in OW in early 06.

I also assume that JJ twice daily flights to CDG could become unsustainable without AF cooperation. Probably JJ will keep one daily and shift one to MAD.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
I think JJ would be extremely successful in MAD, especially with IB feed.

And IB already has a strong presence in Brazil with daily GRU and GIG will be increased from 4 x week to daily as of November/05.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
I agree. BA would dump all its non-GRU Brazil-bound passengers onto JJ internal Brazilian flights at GRU. That makes good economic sense.

Correct, BA-operated, codeshared with JJ, would be a flight with galactic yields/load. The daily B747 could be too small, so BA would have to find a way to find a slot for JJ in LHR (and of course, RG would be kicked out of LHR) or maybe operate a 3/4 x week LHR-GIG.

Rgs,
 
DIA
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 5:44 am

I'd expect this "Magic Red Carpet" airline to also order (in due time) the A350.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
ba319-131
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 5:54 am

An extra 20 320's would be a nice boost for Airbus, given Boeings recent nuber of orders, that said, Airbus are likely waiting for the Paris air show to steal the thunder.

Regarding JJ and OW, it would be a good move on their part and to for the existing OW partners.

OW is weak in south america, JJ would provide a huge boost to the OW network and passenger numbers.

Fingers crossed JJ join.

Rgds

Mark
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 10):
OW is weak in south america, JJ would provide a huge boost to the OW network and passenger numbers

Indeed, JJ is the second biggest airline in Latin America (also has the second biggest FF programme), and could be the "entrance door" of OW in Brazil. As a result, LAN would take care of West South America (Chile+Andean Countries) and JJ of East South America (i.e. Brazil+Argentina).

Btw, this month JJ broke its record of pax transported on a single day: on 20 May TAM carried 60,000 pax.

Rgs,

[Edited 2005-05-25 23:06:10]
 
commavia
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 10):
OW is weak in south america

I don't know if I'd call them "weak." AA alone can get OW pax to just about every major business destination on the continent, and that's before you even count LA.
 
ba319-131
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:12 am

Commavia, yes you are correct, I however am thinking more for flying within south america rather than travelling via a OW hub such as MIA.

JJ together with LA would offer a far more extensive network within south america than they have at this current time with just LA and flights from the USA with AA.

Rgds

Mark
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
commavia
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 13):
JJ together with LA would offer a far more extensive network within south america than they have at this current time with just LA and flights from the USA with AA.

That's true -- you're right -- I think the combo of the LA network focused on the west coast of South America and the TAM with its colossal domestic network would be unstoppable on the continent. Add in AA, the largest outside airline in South America, and IB, the second largest outside airline, and you have a pretty sizeable alliance juggernaut.
 
Southamerica
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
Correct, BA-operated, codeshared with JJ, would be a flight with galactic yields/load. The daily B747 could be too small

It would certainly be interesting, but I sincerely believe that before assuming the task of looking for a slot for JJ, BA would faster operate the second daily flight to Sao Paulo themselves.

...or who knows, limiting capacity initially by keeping the sole daily 747-400 to GRU unchanged could also well work as guarrantee for constant healthy yield performance.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
and of course, RG would be kicked out of LHR

Why? A bit of explanation from your part would be much appreciated Hardi.





SOUTHAMERICA
 
Kahala777
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:40 am

JJ(TAM), has been rumored to be looking at more gateways in the United States. It would make sense. They could operate a few turns in Northern Brasil and still be able to work a flight to Southern Florida within the same day! More so TAM could make a profit, if it alligned itself for Charters to and from Brasil to places such as Orlando(ex AA, RG, TR), Ft. Lauderdale, and Las Vegas.

In addition, with the current shape of VARIG, it would be to the best interest of TAM to take a lead while it can. It is possible to see TAM also expand more into Central America as well!


Regards - Kahala777
 
B742
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Yes, they were leased (wet lease) to EK.



Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 5):
Wasn´t to Ek that they were leased??

They were leased to UAE carrier Etihad!

cn 232:

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Rob!
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
It would certainly be interesting, but I sincerely believe that before assuming the task of looking for a slot for JJ, BA would faster operate the second daily flight to Sao Paulo themselves

SOUTH, I understand you point, but I really cant see BA operating twice daily to GRU. South America is not BA's market priority. I would agree, however, with your statement that a consolidate BA (codeshare JJ) daily B747 terminating in GRU could perhaps handle the task. As is the case in other South American destinations, pax would then be heavily funneled through MAD with IB/JJ (and you can expect JJ to operate to MAD as a consequence). [Just for the records, JJ already has a established cooperation with IB on GRU-ASU and GRU-GIG].

And I would go even further, with a possible membership of JJ in OW, maybe IB/JJ could explore routes such as Northeast Brazil to MAD (same way as TAP/RG are currently doing via LIS).

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
I think the combo of the LA network focused on the west coast of South America and the TAM with its colossal domestic network would be unstoppable on the continent. Add in AA, the largest outside airline in South America, and IB, the second largest outside airline, and you have a pretty sizeable alliance juggernaut

If this scenario is materialised, OW will become by far the dominant alliance in South America. Star and Sky better be watchful...

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 17):
They were leased to UAE carrier Etihad!

Correct. Sorry for the mistake. It was a wet lease (including pilots, crew, etc).
 
kl911
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 7:18 am

Any chance KLM/AF wants those F100's or are they only looking for F70's?

KL911
 
Southamerica
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 7:39 am

I get your point Hardi. However, you forgot to specify as to why would RG be kicked out of LHR and limited to service from GIG, as you mentioned earlier.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
- GIG-MIA or BSB-MAO-MIA with the A330 (no decision)



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
JJ would operate an A330 BSB-MAO-MIA and not an A320 like before?

You are correct. If JJ decides for BSB-MAO-MIA (as before) it would operate with the A320. However, if the decision is to boost GIG, with GIG-MIA then JJ would use the A330.

I don't think there is anything solid on that, just speculation that the service will return (and most probably on a A320).

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
and of course, RG would be kicked out of LHR

Why? A bit of explanation from your part would be much appreciated Hardi.

Why and how?

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
JJ(TAM), has been rumored to be looking at more gateways in the United States. It would make sense.

Indeed, RG is very strong in Europe (RG international is focused in Europe, their main priority market abroad)

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
If this scenario is materialised, OW will become by far the dominant alliance in South America. Star and Sky better be watchful...

I bet AR would sign an agreement with RG and/or join STAR in this scenario.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
Any chance KLM/AF wants those F100's or are they only looking for F70's?

I believe they took delivery of one Ex-TAM F-100 recently.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
I also assume that JJ twice daily flights to CDG could become unsustainable without AF cooperation. Probably JJ will keep one daily and shift one to MAD.

Hardi,
I think JJ on the last months arrange agreements in a way to conserve demand for its 2 daily GRU-CDG. Japan and Arabian region are now covered with third party agreements. AF only allows Tam pax to connect into France and more than 70% of its pax goes to Paris. I supose they will keep the 2 flights (as AF becoming a Gol partner probably can boost GIG flights to CDG as Gol does not keep so many flights in GRU which can be used as connections)
to CDG or a kind of combination like GRU-MAD-CDG or CDG-MAD.
Paris market is also knowed by JJ and they obtain an important share (about 45% of GRU market) as well as per the actual conditions of France/Brazil agreement there are no way to increase flights. If Tam reduces its flights probably AF will request to increase their flights using Tam's dormant slots.
What do you think ?

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
JJ(TAM), has been rumored to be looking at more gateways in the United States. It would make sense. They could operate a few turns in Northern Brasil and still be able to work a flight to Southern Florida within the same day! More so TAM could make a profit, if it alligned itself for Charters to and from Brasil to places such as Orlando(ex AA, RG, TR), Ft. Lauderdale, and Las Vegas.

It makes a lot of sense since Brazil-USA flights are usually quite full with high yields even in biz. GIG needs more flights, Northeast as you state needs more flights, and TAM is the only one player at this time that can increase flights to the US (In fact RG will re-introduce the GIG-MIA 3 times per week in july but its seasonal and RG every time shows it does not know anymore how to increase int'l flights). With the strong AA partnership JJ could start a lot of flights from NO/NE as well as a new GIG-MIA.
Its possible the A320 fly FOR-MIA nonstop ?

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
commavia
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I bet AR would sign an agreement with RG and/or join STAR in this scenario.

AR may be tempted to SkyTeam just yet ... either way, though, in the eventuality that JJ were to join OW (and maybe ever perhaps if they didn't join OW) Star and SkyTeam are going to have be playing some serious catch up to be able to reach the longhaul and internal network of OW in South America.
 
Southamerica
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
You are correct. If JJ decides for BSB-MAO-MIA (as before) it would operate with the A320.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I don't think there is anything solid on that, just speculation that the service will return (and most probably on a A320).

In any case, I believe the A319 or even a larger wide-bodied counterpart would be far more indicated. Extreme hot conditions, high cargo demand and eventual head winds could give the A320 quite a hard time for maximizing the operation of this MAO-MIA route.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Its possible the A320 fly FOR-MIA nonstop ?

No.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
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PM
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 1:38 pm

Now can they do something about the dullest colour scheme in the air?  Sad
 
incitatus
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Thu May 26, 2005 1:52 pm

Any speculation on JJ's post-IPO market value compared to GOL's?? I bet JJ's market value will not be as high. Gol will likely be Brazil's largest domestic carrier in about two years.
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LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 27):
Any speculation on JJ's post-IPO market value compared to GOL's?? I bet JJ's market value will not be as high. Gol will likely be Brazil's largest domestic carrier in about two years.

You're right. JJ market value accounts onluy about 45% of G3 market value. This week G3 market value is about R$ 6.9 billion (about USD 2.8 billion). JJ will be a R$ 3 billion market value corporate in the maximum (USD 1.2 billion). This in fact is due to the excellent cash flow (as well as cash on hand) that G3 reports in the last statement. Besides that, G3 is more profitable and they have a cheaper cust.

Regards.
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
This week G3 market value is about R$ 6.9 billion (about USD 2.8 billion). JJ will be a R$ 3 billion market value corporate in the maximum (USD 1.2 billion).

Felipe: once again, thank you very much for the very informative post.

Quoting PM (Reply 26):
Now can they do something about the dullest colour scheme in the air?

I have to agree that TAM's colour scheme is really uninspired.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 24):
AR may be tempted to SkyTeam just yet ...

Let's see what will be the result of the speculated GOL-AF partnership. I find it hard to believe that AF would have a partnership with a LCC. Anyway, GOL is very healthy and stable airline. As stated above, very soon GOL will become Brazil's biggest domestic airline. They are growing on average 50% per year nonstop...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
I think JJ on the last months arrange agreements in a way to conserve demand for its 2 daily GRU-CDG. Japan and Arabian region are now covered with third party agreements.

With about 70% pax O&D (Brazil-France), this gives a stable influx of pax to keep the twice daily JJ A330 to CDG. Plus recent agreements to Japan (with JAL) and MEA (to BEY), I think that you are right in predicting that JJ has solid conditions to keep its operations in CDG. [Poor AF, after opening up CDG for TAM now JJ slapped the door on their face...business is business, but I'm sure AF must be very disapointed with its Brazilian partner JJ. Maybe AF will have happier days with GOL... Smile ]

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
With the strong AA partnership JJ could start a lot of flights from NO/NE as well as a new GIG-MIA.

Correct, but for this to happen JJ needs the blessing of AA. That's why JJ has ALL the interest in the world to keep the present US-Brazil agreement unchanged. AA will be forced to grow through JJ operated flights.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I bet AR would sign an agreement with RG and/or join STAR in this scenario.

RG would never allow AR to join Star. This would never happen. What could happen is AR to join Sky as pointed out above (CM and TA are strong candidates for Sky/Star).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I believe they took delivery of one Ex-TAM F-100 recently

I also think KL has at least one ex-JJ F-100 in their fleet...now some Dutch aviation entusiasts are speaking of a revival of F-70 production. For me this is complete nonsense. Embraer and Canadair would never allow a Fokker-come-back.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
Any chance KLM/AF wants those F100's or are they only looking for F70's?

There will be a time KLM need to replace its ageing regional fleet of F-70/100s. Embraer could be an excellent option, especially because KL already operates Embraers. I think KL would soon (2-3 years) put a substantive order of Embraer jets...(they cannot wait forever for F-70 production to re-start!  boggled 

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
I get your point Hardi. However, you forgot to specify as to why would RG be kicked out of LHR and limited to service from GIG, as you mentioned earlier.

I meant that RG would have a hard time in LHR with a possible JJ/BA partnership, that could lead to a possible withdrawal. On the other hand, time has shown that RG has passed the most difficult test: CDG-AMS, where RG flies a daily old-fashioned MD-11, and AF-KL/JJ fly 5 daily flights with state-of-the-art products.

Rgs,
 
erikwilliam
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
have to agree that TAM's colour scheme is really uninspired.

For a long time now, all they do is change the tail colour and detail, now it´s green/yellow, ans a slight body change, if so....
G3 needs a FF program first than everything, if they don´t have one, no way they can be on an alliance. The pax don´t care about logistics fot the company, they want to get to their point and earn FF miles.

JJ has an agreement with AF/ KL, that can be a bad thing for G3 to talk to AF.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
This week G3 market value is about R$ 6.9 billion (about USD 2.8 billion). JJ will be a R$ 3 billion market value corporate in the maximum (USD 1.2 billion).

That´s a very interesting thing that´s happening. G3 is smaller than JJ and yet, is worthy more. That shows that not only LCC´s are good, as the stock market analists prefers them over legacy carriers. Amazinghow well G3 is doing at Bovespa
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
speedbird128
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 2):
When are there 332's comming back from EY?

Etihad used to have two A332's on lease from TAM - they now only have 1 left. They were:

PT-MVA -> A6-EYX
PT-MVB -> A6-EYY

A6-EYY is already back with TAM a month or so ago, and is operating in TAM colours as PT-MVB. I assume that A6-EYX will be returned soon, now that the ex-Volare EI-DIP (now A6-EYW) has entered service... Also, EY's first new-build A332 A6-EYD should (all things being equal) arrive later today from TLS...

Cheers
BAW128
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Allessandro
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RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 7:38 am

It a good sign that TAM is fully back in business and talking about expanding, I can recall times when it was different (althought even then they were talking about expanding their fleet with a lot of Airbus A320/330's and Fokker 100's). Let's hope that this time it will work out for them... always enjoyed working with them...

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
There will be a time KLM need to replace its ageing regional fleet of F-70/100s. Embraer could be an excellent option, especially because KL already operates Embraers. I think KL would soon (2-3 years) put a substantive order of Embraer jets...(they cannot wait forever for F-70 production to re-start!

The only Embraers that ever flew in the KLM livery were operated and owned by Air Exel in a joint venture named KLM Exel. Before Air Exel got into deep financiel trouble KLM withdrew it participation from this company and did not allow the use of KLM in the airlines name anymore. Air Exel got into serious problems and as a result the Embraers have been returned to the leasing company.

Luckely KLM has just invested lots of money in their F100's to upgrade them to the same standard as the F70 for crew commonality so we will see them around Schiphol for some years to come...
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
JJ is the second biggest airline in Latin America

Indeed, but that's due to Brazil immense size. TAM's international network is still small, only serving Buenos Aires, Miami and Paris non-stop from Sao Paulo. Other destinations, mainly in Paraguay and Bolivia, are operated through their sister airline TAM Mercosur, based at ASU. Certainly they are looking forward to expand it, but still it is tiny if compared with Varig. The situation is very similar than UA's in the good old days - they were the world's biggest airline without operating a single international flight.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
If JJ decides for BSB-MAO-MIA (as before) it would operate with the A320

I am surprised yet happy that Brasilia would eventually get a direct flight to the USA. Brazilian authorities have been, for the last decade, blocking any attemps on starting international flights from BSB, so as to keep it as a big, high-yielding feeder for TAM's and Varig's international routes from GRU and, at a smaller point, GIG. Besides, I have been told LB's VVI-MAO-MIA is always packed for both pax and cargo, especially on the Manaus-Miami leg.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):

I bet AR would sign an agreement with RG and/or join STAR in this scenario.

Easy, tiger. AR is simply not interested on joining any alliance right now. Maybe with Lan Argentina's entrance into the scene (they're starting ops on June 8) this may change. AR offers, from MAD, connections to all over Europe and Equatorial Guinea through Spanair, of which Marsans Group is also a shareholder. AR have already been refused from Oneworld in the mid 1990s, when the alliance instead picked Lan Chile as their partner for the region.

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 30):
G3 needs a FF program first than everything, if they don´t have one, no way they can be on an alliance.

Yep, an FFP is a huge must. Besides, GOL would need a Business class product so as to be acccepted by any alliance - at least on their international network. Alliances haven proven not to fit LCCs very well, and actually none but Aer Lingus is a member of one, thus I still do not see why on Earth GOL is looking forward to joining one.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
I meant that RG would have a hard time in LHR with a possible JJ/BA partnership, that could lead to a possible withdrawal.

Albeit not huge, Star partner BMI still offers some interesting connections from LHR. It's up to RG to take advantage of those, which could eventually help them from withdrawing London. Also, the flights continues to CPH - I don't know the loads, but they also have partner SAS over there. I highly doubt RG will drop such an important (and still money-making) route for the alliance.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):

I bet AR would sign an agreement with RG and/or join STAR in this scenario.

Easy, tiger. AR is simply not interested on joining any alliance right now. Maybe with Lan Argentina's entrance into the scene (they're starting ops on June 8) this may change. AR offers, from MAD, connections to all over Europe and Equatorial Guinea through Spanair, of which Marsans Group is also a shareholder. AR have already been refused from Oneworld in the mid 1990s, when the alliance instead picked Lan Chile as their partner for the region.

Spanair is a Star Alliance member (AR won't lose a partner in Spain). Although I realize SkyTeam is also a good option for AR on the international scale (except they have no partners in Spain, big blow), however, not as much on the regional scenario.

With RG being this financially weak, Star might want to consider another partner "just in case." Also, with OW expanding rapidly in the region and the likelihood of JJ joining OW, Star needs to put a plan together and quick.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
CPH - I don't know the loads, but they also have partner SAS over there. I highly doubt RG will drop such an important (and still money-making) route for the alliance.

CPH is flown for the same reasons AMS is-- Cargo + Biz PAX.

Saludos,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
erikwilliam
Posts: 2122
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:30 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Fri May 27, 2005 8:59 pm

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
thus I still do not see why on Earth GOL is looking forward to joining one.

THey´r grwong fast and hard. THeir presence in GRU is not yet that good, but´ll be better in time. For SKY it might be a good thing to have a presence in Brazil and soon some south american cities.
AF has an agreement with JJ, but JJ´s presence in south america is not so great either, that may be what thei´r looking for, to connect their pax around here.
Here´s a tought, maybe a flight CDG-EZE doesn´t have the best yelding in the world and they could use the aircraft to another place. If they can connect pax going to EZE in G3´s planes it´s a good thing for them. They can optimize operations CDG-GRU and AMS-GRU, and then let G3 make the work of putting the pax in their final place.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
CPH is flown for the same reasons AMS is-- Cargo + Biz PAX.

routes are GRU-LHR-CPH and GRU-CDG-AMS
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Sat May 28, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
Alliances haven proven not to fit LCCs very well, and actually none but Aer Lingus is a member of one, thus I still do not see why on Earth GOL is looking forward to joining one.

I would say they are probably not, but SKY needs a partner and they must be making really good proposals to attract GOL.

I doubt GOL will ever have an FFP, LCCs just don't do it. But if SKY wants a partner, and the only decently-sized one available is an LCC, what options do they have? GOL is the most likely to be the one calling the shots in the negotiations here, not SKY.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Sat May 28, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
You are correct. If JJ decides for BSB-MAO-MIA (as before) it would operate with the A320. However, if the decision is to boost GIG, with GIG-MIA then JJ would use the A330.

One starting isn't dependent on the other not starting. They are both independent decissions. There has also been some light talk that MIA-GIG will be a redeye service, and then, during the day, a daylight GIG-MIA service will operate via Belem, Fortaleza, and Recife, depending on the day. It would greatly increase aircraft utilization, and all three airports are desperately seeking non-stops to Miami again.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Its possible the A320 fly FOR-MIA nonstop ?

No. The A320 can do MIA-MAO and MIA-BEL. The problem, is, however, that it is near the limit of the planes range, and there are severe cargo penalites that affect how profitable the flight is. Manaus especially is a huge cargo market.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
I am surprised yet happy that Brasilia would eventually get a direct flight to the USA. Brazilian authorities have been, for the last decade, blocking any attemps on starting international flights from BSB

TransBrasil flew non-stop from Brasilia to both Miami and Washington Dulles during the late 1990s. American Airlines has also expressed interest in flying to the capital pending a new US-Brazil air treaty.
a.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Sat May 28, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 35):
Here´s a tought, maybe a flight CDG-EZE doesn´t have the best yelding in the world and they could use the aircraft to another place. If they can connect pax going to EZE in G3´s planes it´s a good thing for them. They can optimize operations CDG-GRU and AMS-GRU, and then let G3 make the work of putting the pax in their final place.

Maybe. But CDG-EZE is a big money-maker for AF, especially in Business and First.  Smile

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
I would say they are probably not, but SKY needs a partner and they must be making really good proposals to attract GOL.

Although they are expanding internationally, still GOL is mainly an inside-Brazil-only airline. Brazil is a big market, but I believe an alliance would rather have a partner that flies to many places in the region.

What about other Latin American airlines? Copa Airlines from Panama, and now Aero República from Colombia, are owned by Continental Airlines, a Skyteam member. TACA also has a respectable international network, and currently they are free of any alliance.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
I doubt GOL will ever have an FFP, LCCs just don't do it.

That's in Europe. In North America, some do have an FFP: look at jetBlue (trueBlue), Southwest (Rapid Rewards) and Canada's WestJet (Mosaik Air Miles).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):

TransBrasil flew non-stop from Brasilia to both Miami and Washington Dulles during the late 1990s. American Airlines has also expressed interest in flying to the capital pending a new US-Brazil air treaty.

You are right. However, since Trans Brasil's demise no airline has flown from Brasilia to the world. Varig and TAM always block any attemps so as to feed their international services from GRU and GIG.

Re AA: Would they fly to Brasila only, or would the flight continue to another destination? I believe places such as Curitiba deserve to get international flights - they don't even have non-stops to Argentina.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Order 20 A320s

Sat May 28, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):
One starting isn't dependent on the other not starting. They are both independent decissions. There has also been some light talk that MIA-GIG will be a redeye service, and then, during the day, a daylight GIG-MIA service will operate via Belem, Fortaleza, and Recife, depending on the day. It would greatly increase aircraft utilization, and all three airports are desperately seeking non-stops to Miami again.

Agree. But GIG market is still needing more flights to MIA. RG, JJ and AA flights from GRU takes at least 20% of passangers from GIG/Rio de Janeiro and also VIX (which connects thru GIG at RG network). AA has no more the seasonal AA980 service 5 times per week (always with good loads). When Delta required frequencies for GIG-ATL , AA has announced its intention to operate a second daily GIG-MIA. With the slots granted to DL, AA will replace some frequencies in GRU-DFW to increase GIG-MIA but the market is still in need of flights from GIG non stop to MIA and other major american cities. Daily service can be used as you stated to improve aircraft utilization. Let's see RG's yields in daily GIG-MIA (during july weekends).

Quoting Marambio (Reply 38):
Re AA: Would they fly to Brasila only, or would the flight continue to another destination? I believe places such as Curitiba deserve to get international flights - they don't even have non-stops to Argentina.

A perfect leg and flight will be a MIA-BSB-CNF flight. CNF market for US is some days higher than Rio de Janeiro Market due to the high number of CNF/MG natives in US. Yesterday in MIA i knew more than 10 people from Minas Gerais coming back to Brazil, some of them connected from BOS.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 33):
Indeed, but that's due to Brazil immense size. TAM's international network is still small, only serving Buenos Aires, Miami and Paris non-stop from Sao Paulo

Kindly include Santiago (SCL). TAM is somewhat different from RG in one aspect: it tries to improve every such market (two flights to MIA, two flights to CDG) while RG operates single flights for almost all cities (only FRA keeps two flights from RG daily). RG lose oportunities in the US market, Portugal, Spain, even Germany and France. JJ is doing a good job and act as an importan player in all their markets (only SCL the new one has a single daily flight).

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

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