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ERJ170
Topic Author
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TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:25 pm

New Service announcement..

Effective September 7, 2005, Ted will offer roundtrip service between San Francisco and Ontario, California, twice daily. This service is brand new to United, and does not represent a conversion of an existing mainline route to Ted.

-- Also effective September 7, 2005, the following roundtrip service will
be available on Ted, unless otherwise specified:
Denver to Miami Twice daily
Washington Dulles to Miami Twice daily
Los Angeles to Phoenix Twice daily on Ted,
Four times daily on United Express®


-- Effective October 2005, the following roundtrip service will be
available on Ted:
Chicago O'Hare to San Juan, Puerto Rico Once daily, effective
Oct. 23
Chicago O'Hare to Miami Twice daily, effective
Oct. 31


-- Effective November 15, 2005, the following roundtrip service will be
available on Ted:
Denver to Cancun Once daily
Washington Dulles to Cancun Once daily


-- Effective December 18, 2005, the following roundtrip service will be
available on Ted:
Washington Dulles to San Juan, Puerto Rico Once daily

Ted Expansion - Yahoo
Aiming High and going far..
 
commavia
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:28 pm

I think this is smart on UA's part. They are obviously losing money in these predominantly low-yield markets with mainline anyway, so why not transition them to TED and lose less money. I am a bit surprised about MIA, though. I thought that they had a pretty loyal high-value following here, but I guess that went the way of the GRU/EZE flights.
 
ORD2PHL
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:40 pm

Speaking of TED and UA's expansion of it, does anybody have an idea as to how TED is doing on their two MDW routes to IAD and DEN?

Anybody flown the service?

ORD2PHL
 
PVD757
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:50 pm

So, it seems that MIA and SJU will be all "Ted" stations. I continue to think that UA should convert all the 319/320 fleet to "Ted" to better meet todays industry. The vast majority of US domestic passengers want simple/low fares, fairly frequent/convenient schedules, and basic good service (on-time flights, clean airplanes/airports, a snack/soda, and friendly staff).
 
MAH4546
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:53 pm

I'm pleasently shocked Miami is going TED, becuase airlines have entirely avoided sending their low-cost affiliates to MIA. Very, very interesting to hear this.

Any hope United has of maybe building back up a strong customer base in Miami, however, is gone. Going TED, the premium passengers they had left are going to AA. Oh well.

[Edited 2005-05-26 15:54:46]
a.
 
PVD757
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 10:56 pm

MAH; a fair amount of more seats in each of the 3 MIA markets, you must be pretty happy...
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED Expansion..

Thu May 26, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting ORD2PHL (Reply 2):
Speaking of TED and UA's expansion of it, does anybody have an idea as to how TED is doing on their two MDW routes to IAD and DEN?

Expect some changes to IAD svc.

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 3):
I continue to think that UA should convert all the 319/320 fleet to "Ted" to better meet todays industry.

I agree, however, the 320 and 319 are also very good planes for the mainline, so expansion of Ted would be hard without new aircraft orders, which wont be a possibility until post-BK...
no wire hangers!
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:08 am

I'm quite surprised myself that Miami is going all-Ted. With my experience of United at Miami (OK, we're talking one flight to Denver, at 6:45 AM) the flights are half-full (if that), but nearly all elites. I can't help but think that this is a gamble on United's part that simply will not pay off.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
I'm quite surprised myself that Miami is going all-Ted. With my experience of United at Miami (OK, we're talking one flight to Denver, at 6:45 AM) the flights are half-full (if that), but nearly all elites. I can't help but think that this is a gamble on United's part that simply will not pay off.

It's not a gamble. Lots of research has been done. United is a business, after all. We've done stupid things in the past, but the guys that made the decision closely evaluated this loss of elites. There aren't enough of them to sustain mainline service. I've seen the profitability numbers. We're a business. Profits should be the primary motive in any decision and it's nice to see that this principle is starting to be respected more and more... lol.
no wire hangers!
 
padcrasher
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:25 am

Your overestimating premium revenue these days. It's been in a free fall for years. AA's JFK-LAX average yield has gone from $500 years ago to $300. I would not be suprised at all if this works. These single class configurations have a nicer coach product, they don't subject the flyer to the ego deflation having to walk past the First Class passengers, (don't laugh this is an actual peeve of coach passengers in surveys) and most importantly the customer senses value in the Ted product.
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 9):
Your overestimating premium revenue these days. It's been in a free fall for years. AA's JFK-LAX average yield has gone from $500 years ago to $300. I would not be suprised at all if this works. These single class configurations have a nicer coach product, they don't subject the flyer to the ego deflation having to walk past the First Class passengers, (don't laugh this is an actual peeve of coach passengers in surveys) and most importantly the customer senses value in the Ted product.

Wow. Spot on. Good writing.
no wire hangers!
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:29 am

Padcrasher-That's something I didn't think of. Now, what is really surprising, if you ask me, is United keeping those two flights per day to each destination. What if they just went to one TedBus daily to Denver and Northern Virginia, and kept two TedBuses daily to O'Hare.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:31 am

i have not flown TED yet, but what makes it so different as a product for passengers than mainline UA?

We know Song is way different than DL with their look (colourful/stylish), attitude (nicer/friendlier) and offerings (nice meals for purchase and PTV).

Apart from offering more seats, what makes TED better that will make elites and other feel OK with the change from mainline to TED? is this an improvment for the customer?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:40 am

"what makes it so different as a product for passengers than mainline UA"

Different colors on the plane? Oh and no first class...

" what makes TED better that will make elites and other feel OK with the change from mainline to TED?"

Nothing.

"is this an improvment for the customer?"

Exactly the opposite.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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ramprat74
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:42 am

It's about time they decide to fly ONT-SFO route again. I have no clue why they dumped that route years ago. I'm also glad to see they are going to fly non RJ's on the LAX-PHX run. I hope TED takes over all the RJ flights in PHX.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:48 am

Ramprat-How about putting Ted on the IAD-PHX-TUS-PHX-IAD routes, or at least break those up into a TUS-ORD leg with a CR7 (TUS-ORD has no nonstop or direct service) or a 735 if the CR7 comes up with performance issues (runway length is no issue, but 1249nm at a half-mile up might be for the CR7) and a Ted IAD-PHX-IAD leg? Just food for thought...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 11):
Padcrasher-That's something I didn't think of. Now, what is really surprising, if you ask me, is United keeping those two flights per day to each destination. What if they just went to one TedBus daily to Denver and Northern Virginia, and kept two TedBuses daily to O'Hare.

It's called catchment area. There are still high-yield, business travelers near MIA that will fly out of MIA, despite the lack of F seats. Most business travelers care more about value than the existence of F class. And they'll tend to book closer in, thereby paying the higher fares on Ted. Catchment area. More business travelers near MIA than FLL.



Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
Ramprat-How about putting Ted on the IAD-PHX-TUS-PHX-IAD routes, or at least break those up into a TUS-ORD leg with a CR7 (TUS-ORD has no nonstop or direct service) or a 735 if the CR7 comes up with performance issues (runway length is no issue, but 1249nm at a half-mile up might be for the CR7) and a Ted IAD-PHX-IAD leg? Just food for thought...

Aye carumba. I'll stop addressing your thoughts because: (a) you don'd ask me anyway, and (b) it's obvious you need a reality check! This is a silly question.

[Edited 2005-05-26 17:53:14]
no wire hangers!
 
Kahala777
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 12:58 am

As negative as I am about the United Airlines management and they way that things have been run with United Airlines, this is actually a very good move for United Airlines. The thing that I am puzzled about is the virtual loss of mainline service from Miami. Miami, is a very well performing market for many airlines. It will be yet another case of United Airlines, turning over their premium South Florida traffic to American Airlines.

The advent of TED service from LAX-PHX, SFO-ONT would seem to be a direct attack on Southwest Airlines. At last Ontario nearly outnumbered LAX, with the amount of Intra-California traffic offered by Southwest Airlines. In addition LAX-PHX, is an ex Shuttle by United service that always seem to perform well.

San Juan, should be no suprise at all. San Juan, suffers from the same fate as Orlando. To much competition and airfares that are to little. It makes perfect business sense to operate an all economy operation to a market such as San Juan!


Regards - Kahala777
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 16):
it's obvious you need a reality check! This is a silly question.

UA744-It's not really that silly to ask why TUS-IAD has direct service on UA (through Phoenix, a non-UA hub, no less), whereas TUS-ORD only has connecting service on UA. Is there that much more traffic from Tucson to Northern Virginia than from Tucson to Chicago?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
padcrasher
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:12 am

I don't know about the specifics of UA's markets but in general since Ted has a limited number of aircraft you put it in where it can do the most good and has the less downside. Leisure markets are high on the list, you really don't want to waste the product in markets where there is no LCC competition. UA may have made the decision that since AA had beaten them in the battle for premium passengers, ORD-MIA, (It is after all an AA hub to hub market) it would be best to go after coach passengers with a better product. Counting on American not to match.
 
padcrasher
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:16 am

And of course UA makes things even harder for ATA.

from faremeasure.com

"American Airlines carries the most passengers on this route. If you're looking for the most flexible schedule, you should consider American Airlines.
During the most recent reporting period, American Airlines had 40.2% of the market between Chicago, IL and Miami, FL and passengers paid an average one-way fare of $186.74.


American Trans Air is the low-fare carrier on this route, which means if you're looking for cheap tickets between Chicago, IL and Miami, FL you should check their options.
American Trans Air served 37.54% of the passengers flying between Chicago, IL and Miami, FL during the most recent reporting period, and passengers paid an average of $110.33 one-way.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:16 am

Note: The Quote Text feature isn't working for me so I've put other's comments in quotes.

"Speaking of TED and UA's expansion of it, does anybody have an idea as to how TED is doing on their two MDW routes to IAD and DEN?"

--I hear the IAD flight has been nearly empty most runs. I'm sure they're looking for better ways to utilize the aircraft. Expect to see Fort Myers next season. I'd like to see a few West Palm Beach flights, too.

"I'm pleasantly shocked Miami is going TED, because airlines have entirely avoided sending their low-cost affiliates to MIA. "

--Fort Lauderdale didn't perform well for Ted and it's down to one flight a day from IAD, partly due to the seasonal drop in demand. Maybe Miami will do better. UA flies tons of Europeans to Florida during the Winter who transfer at the Dulles hub. They're flying on low fares. Ted is a good way to fly them and other leisure flyers.

It seems as if UA is struggling to find ways to utilize Ted equipment during the late Spring to early Fall season when demand for flights to Florida and other sunny climates drops. Maybe they should send Ted to Alaska and Canada during the summer when leisure travel up there peaks.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
B744F
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:34 am

Why an A320 on a short hop from San Fran to Ontario? Isn't that a waste?
 
padcrasher
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 22):
Why an A320 on a short hop from San Fran to Ontario? Isn't that a waste?

The two biggest factors effecting CASM are 1) High number of seats per flight and 2) High daily utilization rates in the 12hr to 13hr range.

This is most likely a function getting the most out of the aircraft you can. With Song/Jetblue you see more redeye flights, more tag on- routes, rather than parking the aircraft and the crew having a nice layover. Keep it flying till 10PM, back to work at 6AM.
 
MAH4546
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
I'm quite surprised myself that Miami is going all-Ted. With my experience of United at Miami (OK, we're talking one flight to Denver, at 6:45 AM) the flights are half-full (if that), but nearly all elites. I can't help but think that this is a gamble on United's part that simply will not pay off.

Those Elites are gone now, and have all transfered to American and Delta, the two dominate airlines in the region. With what United has done to their Miami network, there was no reason for them to stay.
a.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:10 am

MAH-You could answer this question better than I could...why is it that United has all-Ted at Fort Lauderdale, and is going to be all-Ted in Miami, yet is keeping West Palm Beach with that one mainline flight to Chicago (and, amazingly, none to Northern Virginia, although I'm sure they will open that market up the second Independence goes Chapter Seven)?
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commavia
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:12 am

While I definitely think it is smart of UA to cut its losses and put TED in MIA if they are losing money on their mainline flying, it is a bit sad, though, to see where UA was and what they have become in MIA.

They went from around 30-40 flights to cities throughout South America and the U.S. down to six TED A320s to three hubs and no flights to the west coast. Again, though, I think UA is smart to just give it up as there is no way they could ever have competed with AA in MIA, especially without GRU/EZE flights.

Does anyone in MIA or with UA know, though -- what is UA doing with all its gates in MIA? Do they still lease the entire F concourse or have they given up most of the gates? With the new schedule, maybe UA could cut their gate utilization down to just 1-2 gates. Thanks.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:13 am

Commavia-I'll answer that question...EVERY SINGLE GATE at MIA is common-use. There are no gate leases, even for American...if you don't believe me, check their competition plan.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
commavia
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 27):
SINGLE GATE at MIA is common-use. There are no gate leases, even for American

Surely airlines must have preferential rights at specific gates, as I don't think that Delta or VARIG are going to be using the new Terminal D!
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
This service is brand new to United, and does not represent a conversion of an existing mainline route to Ted.

Wow! Wasn't OAK-ONT the first route that UA abandoned to WN? Having UA come back in on SFO-ONT is them getting their game back!  box 

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
MAH4546
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 25):
MAH-You could answer this question better than I could...why is it that United has all-Ted at Fort Lauderdale, and is going to be all-Ted in Miami, yet is keeping West Palm Beach with that one mainline flight to Chicago (and, amazingly, none to Northern Virginia, although I'm sure they will open that market up the second Independence goes Chapter Seven)?

I have no idea. It could be because PBI just isn't an important market to them, or that there is strong F demand to PBI (which is the case, though I doubt UA carries a lot of it).

Quoting Commavia (Reply 28):
Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 27):
SINGLE GATE at MIA is common-use. There are no gate leases, even for American

Surely airlines must have preferential rights at specific gates, as I don't think that Delta or VARIG are going to be using the new Terminal D!

Entirely correct. While all gates are common-use, MIA does give perferential treatment to airlines. For example, when AA says "I want that gate", AA gets it, and whoever is using it is kicked out to somewhere else.

With the new Star Alliance terminal opening soon (this project is on time and on budget, since it is being ran by MIA management, not AA management like the AA concourse), though, I've been hearing that MIA is trying to get SkyTeam to use it instead. SkyTeam has a descent presence at the airport, much more so than Star Alliance. SkyTeam+DL's partners have about 60-70 or so daily flights to about 25 cities, Star will have about 11 to eight.

[Edited 2005-05-26 19:23:23]
a.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:23 am

Commavia-They don't. However, they don't have any counter space over there, as all of their counter space is at Concourse H. Needless to say, no airline is going to use gates in Concourse D when their counters are all the way at the other end of the airport. With American having all of the counter space in the B-C-D areas, they basically assure that nobody is going to want to use all of those gates for their flights when their counters are at E, F, G, or H.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):
With the new Star Alliance terminal opening soon (this project is on time and on budget, since it is being ran by MIA management, not AA management like the AA concourse), though, I've been hearing that MIA is trying to get SkyTeam to use it instead

Are you talking about concourse J?!?! it is looking awesome!!.. it is not a terminal, but looks like it.

http://www.pbase.com/airlinerphotos/airports_mia&page=4
 
Jamake1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 3:00 am

Back on topic...

I am pleased to see Ted entering the SFO-ONT market. This market was discontinued by United Shuttle after 9/11 and I was surprised that there was at least no RJ service on UAX/Skywest.

While Southwest does command the market out of OAK, SFO-ONT would be beneficial to business travellers doing business in SF as well as providing connections to Asia and the Pacific for travellers in eastern L.A.
United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 3:09 am

Even more back on topic, I'm still confused as to why United bothers to fly that flight between Tucson and Phoenix, and then Phoenix and Northern Virginia, with mainline, when they could instead put a CR7 on TUS-ORD (which would give the airline eastbound connections on UA, which they presently do not have) and a TedBus on PHX-IAD. I can't imagine that UA carries that much local traffic on TUS-PHX, and even more so traffic that continues to IAD, particularly when Mesa/Freedom d/b/a America West Express flies the route 11 times a day nonstop!
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
I'm pleasently shocked Miami is going TED, becuase airlines have entirely avoided sending their low-cost affiliates to MIA. Very, very interesting to hear this.

me too. You know, the number of elites lost (and the ones who stayed are going to stay. You can get economy plus to IAD or ORD and then first from there) is so small and the gain in passengers from out of the area should offset it.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 27):
Commavia-I'll answer that question...EVERY SINGLE GATE at MIA is common-use. There are no gate leases, even for American...if you don't believe me, check their competition plan.

Are you sure? FL uses the same gate and DL uses the same gates. I'm not sure about the others, but I believe G and H are not common use.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 35):
Are you sure? FL uses the same gate and DL uses the same gates. I'm not sure about the others, but I believe G and H are not common use.

Per Miami International Airport's Competition Plan, which explicitly states that every single gate is common use.
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DLKAPA
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 3):
So, it seems that MIA and SJU will be all "Ted" stations. I continue to think that UA should convert all the 319/320 fleet to "Ted" to better meet todays industry.

That would be a bad idea. Not only would they lose a hell of alot of elite customers, customers that have come back consistantly because they like the product, but also because TED flights cost more than an average A320 run. Why? All those extra seats crammed into the Bus mean that TED has to fly with 4 flight attendants vs. the 3 that the A320's normally fly with.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
galapagapop
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
I think this is smart on UA's part. They are obviously losing money in these predominantly low-yield markets with mainline anyway, so why not transition them to TED and lose less money. I am a bit surprised about MIA, though. I thought that they had a pretty loyal high-value following here, but I guess that went the way of the GRU/EZE flights.

How do they lose less? Same ground contracts, Same crew, Same planes, Lower Prices? So where are they gaining on TED? Is the LF higher? If in the high 90's they could do something but knowing those routes I'd guess no. Especially after remoming UA's High Yield Pax on those routes.

I must say SFO-ONT sounds smart at least TED is starting its own route.
 
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mariner
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 4:33 am

Despite the reports of great loads on Ted, here is an odd little snippet from the Chicago Tribune, United's home town paper:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,1,2820036.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Quote: But Ted, its no-frills alternative to low-cost airlines like Frontier Airlines and Independence Air, suffers from high costs and lackluster traffic. And most analysts agree that United has a lot more work to do to optimize its domestic network to produce more profitable revenue."

End quote.

Given that I strongly support Frontier, most here know that I also support the survival of United, so it concerns me to see them do things I think are odd.

And, call me stupid, but I think DEN/MIA is odd.

I don't think DEN/CUN going to Ted from mainline is odd, but I do think - in that case - that the appplication for DEN/CZM for mainline is - well, odd.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 4:47 am

Mariner. The Tribune is reporting erroneously. I have a look at the Ted loads every week and they are undeniably strong systemwide. You can do some legwork yourself without having the luxury of internal UA info systems... just sift through the DOT T-100 data that is available to the public and look at all of Ted's routes. You'll see the Tribune is misrepresenting the case of "lackluster traffic".

Or if you choose to have 100% faith in what you read, ignorance is bliss.
no wire hangers!
 
WeAreUnited
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 34):
Even more back on topic, I'm still confused as to why United bothers to fly that flight between Tucson and Phoenix, and then Phoenix and Northern Virginia, with mainline, when they could instead put a CR7 on TUS-ORD (which would give the airline eastbound connections on UA, which they presently do not have) and a TedBus on PHX-IAD. I can't imagine that UA carries that much local traffic on TUS-PHX, and even more so traffic that continues to IAD, particularly when Mesa/Freedom d/b/a America West Express flies the route 11 times a day nonstop!

United flies TUS-ORD in the winter (high demand) time twice daily. I hear that the PHX-TUS flight is to overnight the A/C in TUS at cheaper costs. I dunno if that's fact... just what I heard though through the grapevine. The flight does actually have connections to it from SFO and LAX surprisingly. I did fly TUS-PHX once around Christmas time 2003- and it was FULL!
 
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 40):
Or if you choose to have 100% faith in what you read, ignorance is bliss.

I never have 100% faith in what I read - where did that come from?

However, while it is entirely possible that the Tribune is wrong, this is the first indication in the press - anywhere - of something that has been puzzling some people.

The words "lackluster traffic" do not necessarily mean load factor.

Given that Ted's l/f is not significantly different from mainline - both in the low to mid-80's? - but that Ted has the same costs but lower yields, several of who want United to survive are puzzled.

It isn't just the Trib.

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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 38):
How do they lose less?

Don't shoot the messenger. My opinion on these boards has always been that TED is not a financial success -- maybe a market and load factor success, but, as you say, still saddled with the high fixed operating costs of UA as all that's really different is the paint job and the lack of first class.

However, over and over, I have been told by many people that TED is a financial success, as UA744Flagship said:

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 40):
The Tribune is reporting erroneously. I have a look at the Ted loads every week and they are undeniably strong systemwide.

Whether UA is financially satisfied with TED, or whether -- this is my feeling -- UA is just happy with TED because instead of losing tons of money per flight, they are just losing a little, I don't know. But, either way, I think UA moving TED into MIA if they have really lost their market there with mainline is smart.
 
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
Given that Ted's l/f is not significantly different from mainline - both in the low to mid-80's?

Yes, it is.

United's system passenger load factor: 79.2%
Ted (~15% of United's 2004 capacity): greater than 84%

That is public information, available from multiple press releases and info sources. I can tell you that United mainline for 2004 excluding Ted is indeed less than 79% (that's a no-brainer -- given that Ted was roughly 15% of mainline capacity).

A greater than 5% difference in LF can make or break a flight's profitability (or reduce its losses), especially when you have an aircraft with greater capacity operating in a primarily leisure market.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
However, while it is entirely possible that the Tribune is wrong, this is the first indication in the press - anywhere

No, it isn't. There have been press releases and other articles before that have stated the exact opposite. This is the first article to say that Ted's traffic has been "lackluster", and probably will be the last, because that is simply wrong. Why TF do u think Ted is being expanded?

Honestly, people believe what they read when they've been waiting for someone to write something they wanna hear.
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 37):
Why? All those extra seats crammed into the Bus mean that TED has to fly with 4 flight attendants vs. the 3 that the A320's normally fly with.

This is an idiotic assumption that holds no water. So you're saying jetBlue is wrong having the *identical* capacity on an A320, also having that federally-mandated 4th F/A??

F/As are paid peanuts. The cost of one additional F/A on a flight is typically more than offset by just one more paying passenger.

Why would jetBlue have 156 seats then? By your logic they should have 149.
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 44):
Honestly, people believe what they read when they've been waiting for someone to write something they wanna hear.

Sorry, but that is total bs. How many times does one have to repeat the matra that one wants United to survive, one wants to see it do well.

In a war - which obviously this is to you - it is important to know who are enemies are.

It is equally important to know who your friends are.

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 44):
This is the first article to say that Ted's traffic has been "lackluster",

That is precisely what I said.

But since you seem incapable of having a discussion without attacking, there seems little point in attempting to have a discussion.

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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
Given that Ted's l/f is not significantly different from mainline - both in the low to mid-80's? - but that Ted has the same costs but lower yields, several of who want United to survive are puzzled.

This written statement implies that people are still puzzled despite the countless other information out there saying loads are strong, traffic is good. I.E.: those sources are BS, and finally someone has written something that seems to confirm what we've suspected all along: Ted is not doing well.

You mask yourself as "pro-United" yet your posts consistently come out with negative United tones. It is easy to distinguish you as an enemy pretending to be a friend.

You still haven't responded to my *factual* rebuttal of LFs.
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 37):
All those extra seats crammed into the Bus mean that TED has to fly with 4 flight attendants vs. the 3 that the A320's normally fly with.

All those extra seats mean extra revenue if they are filled. That would more than offset the minimal cost of having a fourth FA.
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RE: TED Expansion..

Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 47):
You mask yourself as "pro-United" yet your posts consistently come out with negative United tones. It is easy to distinguish you as an enemy pretending to be a friend.

You must have a spectacular memory, because I can;t recall making a post about United for several months.

However, if you would like to check the archives, you will see what I have wrriten.

If you cannot understand that one can be concerned - as in puzzled - for the health of a friend, then I can't help you.

If you cannot begin to understand that someone who is invested in Frontier may want United to be strong and healthy - at DEN - because it is the best thing for Frontier, then sorry, I can't help you.

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 47):
You still haven't responded to my *factual* rebuttal of LFs.

I said, of main line, low to mid 80's l/f. 80.8% looks like low 80's to me.

http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,6862,52897,00.html

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