commavia
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Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 10:56 am

I always looked with admiration at Canadian Airlines as a company with great, dedicated employees and a lot of spirit that just couldn't make it because of economic realities. (Side note: they always kind of reminded me of the 'TWA of Canada,' the airline that most people regarded as having great people and great service, and who most people always rooted for, but who always struggled along.) Anyway, to my question:

While I know this is virtually impossible, I was just wondering -- particularly for our Canadian A.net friends -- if you thought that a resurrected Canadian Airlines would be successful? If the Canadian Airlines brand was brought back, would people -- particularly in western Canada where the original Canadian's roots were -- be willing to switch from AC over to the new CP?


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[Edited 2005-05-27 04:00:43]
 
yegmaster
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 10:58 am

They should resurrect Wardair in all it's glory
Cheers
 
Olympus69
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 11:12 am

They've tried it a couple of times with PanAm. That doesn't seem to work.
What exactly do you mean by 'resurrect' Do you mean split off part of AC. I don't see how that would be possible. If you mean start a new airline using the "Canadian" name, that seems pointless. I doubt if Canada can support another large carrier.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 11:21 am

Canadian was a very poorly run company with useless management (Rhys-Eaton careened from one strategic plunder right into the next one -- I swear he must have trained Robert Milton), militant unions (that made the AC unions appear cooperative and efficient in comparison), and a fleet mix (ancient F28's, DC-10's on prestige routes) that would have embarassed the Smithsonian Institute. The only nice thing about CP is that it was not AC.

Effectively, Westjet is the "new" Canadian (or more appropriately) the "new" Pacific Western which was a well run company until it bought CP Air.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sebring
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 11:27 am

Domestically, WS is well-entrenched in the Western Canadian heartland that was CP's strength. CP never did well in the East. Internationally, a new CP would not have its old Asia routes, and it would not hae LHR access. It's hard to see how it possibly could succeed, even in a scaled down fashion. Oh, and AC owns the Canadian Airlines name, brand, trademarks, etc.
 
Noise
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 1:13 pm

It would be extremely hard for a resurrected Canadian Airlines to succeed in Canada's airline industry today due to a few reasons. For starters, WestJet is almost the same size CP was back in the 90s, representing 30% of the market share in Canada. Western Canadians, who used to be loyal to CP, are now loyal to WJ. Their service is great are their prices are usually lower than AC's.

Air Canada has also expanded quite a bit into CP's former markets, i.e. Asia. Representing just under 60% of the total market share, AC is the dominant carrier in the east and flies almost all key international routes.

There are also smaller airlines CP would have to compete with, such as CanJet(Eastern Canadian based discount airline) and Harmony Airways (Western Canadian based airline flying to holiday destinations).

As you can see, Canada's airline industry right now is pretty healthy. The entry of a new Canadian Airlines would saturate the market. A new Canadian Airlines would only be successful if:
-They fly high-yield routes.
-Have low turn-around times.
-Have low employee-to-plane ratio.
-Keep costs down.
...then maybe they can make money on certain routes.

Anyone starting up a new airline in Canada has to ask themselves this question; where would they fly? A new Canadian Airlines would run into heavy competition almost everywhere.

I feel there is absolutely no doubt that the people of Canada, especially Western Canada, would be happy to see the Proud Wings livery back in Canada's skies...but it takes a lot more than that to keep them up there.
 
timeair
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 2:51 pm

I can agree WS has entrenched itself into CP/KI old strongholds, not to mention has taken on alot of former CP/KI staff...so I tend to agree that in essence, Canadian was resurrected even before it was gone, but the Management team didn't realize it until it was too late! The only thing missing is the Int'l routes, but I think over time it will appear...hmm wasn't that a B767 corporate model in WS offices????
You can't get there from here.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 4:12 pm

AC has ownership of all of Canadian's old routes. If it wasn't for the routes that CP brought in the merger that created Canadian, it wouldn't have been half the airline it was. I always preferred Canadian to the point I was Executive Platinum on Canadian but had no status on AC. AC has a fairly firm grasp on all the international routes to and from Canada now and I think that makes a Canadian resurection fairly unlikely. Of course its not all bad... YVR and YYZ are probably bigger connection hubs than they could have been before and perhaps the US/HP deal will act like the asian feed that AA once provided to Canadian in YVR.
 
BCAL
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Fri May 27, 2005 5:29 pm

Quoting Yegmaster (Reply 1):
They should resurrect Wardair in all it's glory

Definitely. The best airline in the world ever....after British Caledonian of course!

What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Goose
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 12:36 am

A resurrected Canadian has been successful - it's called WestJet.

WestJet has essentially taken CP's place in the past couple of years.... strong in the West, not so much in the East (supposedly they're having problems breaking out of the mold of being perceived as a "regional carrier" to eastern customers).

Of course, WS doesn't fly internationally as CP did... and WestJet flies pretty extensive charter operations, which CP should've done (after buying out Max Ward). Financially, though, they're approximately the same size now... WS makes almost as much revenue as CP did when it was at its peak.

Looks like they've learned from some of CP's mistakes. There's also a whole load of ex-CP people working for WS.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
aa757first
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 12:40 am

One would think there is still room for a traditional, full service carrier in Canada. One with two classes, long haul flights, meals, etc.

AAndrew
 
whitehatter
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

Look at all the other carriers who tried that and failed. Closer to home we have Air Europe, Dan-Air and Laker. All moved from charter to scheduled, and for various reasons ended up in the history books.

Seems like it is never an easy move to make.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Goose
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 10):
One would think there is still room for a traditional, full service carrier in Canada. One with two classes, long haul flights, meals, etc.

Harmony is giving that a shot....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
avek00
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 1:23 am

As is the case with most countries, Canada's aviation market simply cannot accomodate two major longhaul carriers.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Goose
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
As is the case with most countries, Canada's aviation market simply cannot accomodate two major longhaul carriers.

Well, the US manages to support quite a few. Britain has more than one.

The difference is that Canada is, in terms of population, a small to mid-sized country. I mean, we have as many people in the whole of Canada as there are in the state of California.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
RogerThat
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 4:37 am

Bring back the goose...


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I flew CP from Toronto to Halifax in first class just a few months before they went under. It was the best in-flight service in this hemisphere.
 
ricardofg
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

YES! lets all start a new airline...CANADAIR!
 
avek00
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
Well, the US manages to support quite a few. Britain has more than one.

For a variety of reasons, the USA (along with Japan and the UK, to a lesser extent) can support 2 or more major long-haul operators. However, most countries simply cannot.
Live life to the fullest.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 8:55 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
and it would not hae LHR access

...what, other than slot acquisition, would be stopping it?

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
Well, the US manages to support quite a few.

Um, perhaps because even individual states here have more population than all of Canada?  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CXYYZ
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun May 29, 2005 9:08 am

I have very fond memories of CP. My father was a Canadian Plus points member, so I flew Canadian exclusively as a child. I can still remember the first time I saw the ad unveiling their Proud Wings livery. What a fantastic design that was! I think they had a great brand and good service. I liked their choice of name for Empress Class and the Empress Lounges and I really think it's a shame AC didn't capitalise on this for their premium product.

On a somewhat related matter. Last year I read that WS and CX were in talks on having WS become a feeder for CX's Canadian cities but I haven't heard anything of that since. What's the status of those talks or have they broken down?
 
Goose
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
Um, perhaps because even individual states here have more population than all of Canada?

Uhm, maybe you should have read the very next line of my post which you quoted, that stated exactly that;

Quoting Goose (Reply 14):
The difference is that Canada is, in terms of population, a small to mid-sized country. I mean, we have as many people in the whole of Canada as there are in the state of California.

 Yeah sure ... indeed.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
yegbey01
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Mon May 30, 2005 9:01 am

I was a platinum Canadian Plus member just before they were taken over by AC...Those were the days....indeed.

Friendliest staff....amazing service....

WS does not replace CP...not a chance....don't compare these crazy mickey mouse flight attendants at WS to CP's most wonderful and professional staff
 
timeair
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
What exactly killed Wardair leading to it being taken over and merged with Canadian? Did Wardair make a big mistake going from a first-class charter airline to a scheduled carrier?

The Canadian Government killed Wardair !!

Max Ward had a fleet of 747's/ DC-10's AND Airbus A310's, however he did not have equipment to service smaller markets to feed into main hub markets. He purchased 10 MD-80's to initiate domestic point to point service to feed onto his long haul international flights, however due to the Regulatory environment, both CP and AC appealed the government and the government heeded to their request to deny Wardair a domestic OC, thusly quashing his endeavour to provide the Canadian people a far superior product ever imagined in air travel anywhere in the world! If he had waited for de-regulation, I am sure Wardair would now be the designated National carrier for Canada, and not only CP would be out of business, but AC would be close to their demise now, if not already another now-defunct legacy carrier as well, and the likelyhood of Clive Beddoe creating Westjet probably never would have occurred!
You can't get there from here.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 22):
The Canadian Government killed Wardair !!

Nonsense. Max Ward killed Wardair. No one else.

Wardair was a marginally-profitable-at-best charter carrier when Max Ward made the strategic error of converting WD into a sked carrier. The 12-strong 313 order killed WD. By 1988, the domestic market was deregulated so WD was free to start any domestic services he wanted.

By 1989, it was clear that WD was headed for bankruptcy and liquidation Anyway, CP foolishly paid about C$200M to purchase WD.

The ONLY value in WD was their slots to LGW which CP picked up. Everything else (the staff, fleet, facilities) were of no value and arguably a burden to CP.

Despite every Canadian having some kind of warped nostalgia for WD, it really was never very profitable. It should have remained as a small niche charter carrier.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:08 pm

PWA bought CP not the other way around...The EPA and Transair came together, then EPA and CP merged to come up with CanadiACA....doesnt look like a resurrection would do them any good now...an excercisim maybe?
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting Slawko (Reply 24):
PWA bought CP not the other way around...The EPA and Transair came together, then EPA and CP merged to come up with CanadiACA....

Not quite.

PWA bought Transair around 1980, long before the amalgamation with CP, Nordair & EPA.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B742
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:27 pm

Please bring back CPBig grin

Maybe all of us a.net guys should donate to bring back the airline  Wink

Has a airline ever been resurrected successfully?

Rob!
 
slawko
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:45 pm

You're right I was thinking nordair...not Transair...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:09 am

What are Canada's bilateral agreements with other countries? Would these preclude a new entrant from competing against Air Canada internationally (long-haul)?

What about PrivatAir-esque flights from YYZ to Europe and YVR to Asia?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:47 pm

I wonder what Max did with his 241 million-dollar plunder of Canadi>n. He was quite the businessman. He racks up a 480 million-dollar debt, brings Wardair to scheduled service, increasing its marketable value to the gullible Rhys-Eaton whom he knew would be interested in acquiring it, and then, sure enough, Ward then sells the bill of goods to Canadi>n, just at the exact time when Canadi>n was looking to bulk up its mass to compete with Air Canada.

Canadi>n paid 241 million, plus it assumed liability for about 480 million of debt. In return, they sold Wardair's fleet for 650 million, leaving them 71 million dollars in the hole.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
timeair
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 23):
Nonsense. Max Ward killed Wardair. No one else.

 Confused  Confused ... and why do think Wardair was in such a predicament?? It was called regulatory air routes...controlled by the Canadian Government, of which Max Ward had no control over, and thusly was basically forced into selling his airline, as there was no definitive way for him to produce more revenue from the markets already served as the Government had mostly granted services to all 3 Canadian carriersat the time (AC, CP, WD) in major markets (YYZ,YVR,YOW,YUL, YYC,YEG).  banghead   banghead  THE GOVERNMENT SCREWED HIM!!! JUST LIKE THE REST OF US CANADIANS!
You can't get there from here.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 30):
and why do think Wardair was in such a predicament??

Max Ward did a poor job of managing his expenses while he grew too quickly. WD would still be here today if Max Ward had done 1 of 2 things:
1. Remained a charter carrier, OR
2. Expanded into sked service more slowly.
WD bankrupted itself effectively. The Cdn govt had nothing to do with it.

C3 began in 1988 (the year before WD failed) and prosperred until 2001. TS started in 1987 and is still prosperring today.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 22):
, I am sure Wardair would now be the designated National carrier for Canada, and not only CP would be out of business, but AC would be close to their demise now, if not already another now-defunct legacy carrier as well, and the likelyhood of Clive Beddoe creating Westjet probably never would have occurred!

Let's not go that far...
Had Wardair continued into the 1990s and through to today, and if it was a viable alternative carrier, AC, CP and others would have adjusted their products accordingly.

Would have been cool to see some Wardair Super 80s though...
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:21 pm

Reply To: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Let's see...

Whereas, the original Canadi>n (CP) could not turn a profit even in the best of times in spite of a network that had "profit potential" written all over it,

and

Whereas West Jet was a relative non-factor during the years leading up to CP's demise,

and

Whereas conditions effecting airline profitibility are significantly more stacked against the airlines than they were at the time when CP ceased to exist...

...I will allow readers to surmise my reply to the question of whether Canadi>n II would be successful.
 
CXYYZ
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 33):

Your answer is far too simplistic. CP suffered because it was burdened with huge debts from the start and a resurrected CP would be exactly that. Resurrected. They wouldn't have the initial problems that CP faced so they'd be able to start on a strong note.

Other than poor management and bad luck, the factors that killed off CP were threefold:

a) Just as they seemed to get their act together and focus their energies on Asia, the bottom fell out of the market. The Asian Economic crisis had a hugely negative impact on CP.

b) Tough competition at home. WS came in and undercut CP on its key domestic routes. I'm sorry you don't think that WS was a factor, but it most certainly was. It grew in prominence as CP needed to rely on its "safe" routes for cash flow which really hurt them. Unfortunately CP management never figured out how to respond effectively. TS, Royal, C3 and others also killed transatlantic yields with excess capacity.

c) AC's labour strife near the end was seen as a huge break for CP. They took advantage and people really appreciated their service at the time. AC saw how greatly CP benefited so they launched huge system-wide seat sales to win back traffic and to cause serious red ink to flow from CP after it had started to slow a bit during the strike.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:25 pm

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 34):
Other than poor management and bad luck, the factors that killed off CP were threefold:

Chuckle. Poor mgmt alone can kill an airline. "Bad luck" does not happen to well-run airlines -- they have contingencies in place for all macro-economic circumstances.

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 34):
CP suffered because it was burdened with huge debts from the start

That "bad debt" was self-inflicted -- it was a result of their own accumulated losses and bad investments.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
timeair
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:56 pm

If you ask me, the demise was created when Boeing offered CP B737-300/400 aircraft, at which point it was accepted by CP, however shortly thereafter PWA moved in and shot the deal down, and rather relied on the 737-200adv, because of its northern operations, of which the 300/400 series were not adaptable for the gravel kits. Now if CP/PW were smart, they would have taken Boeing up on the deal for, I believe, 45 new 737-300/400 series (of which CP was using for their Attache services YVR/YYC/YEG/YWG-YYZ) and Boeing was offering an amazing deal of almost 1 new jet for each 737-200 in return...and utilize the "NG" 37's on southern Canadian routes while reserving 6-8 73M-200adv aircraft for their northern ops. The fuel savings would have been considerable, and rather than ordering 2 new 767-200 (C-GPWA,C-GPWB) converted that order into 4 737-300/400 , their is a slim chance they may have still been around....but we will never know!
You can't get there from here.
 
timeair
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RE: Would A Resurrected Canadian Be Successful?

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:57 pm

If you ask me, the demise was created when Boeing offered CP B737-300/400 aircraft, at which point it was accepted by CP, however shortly thereafter PWA moved in and shot the deal down, and rather relied on the 737-200adv, because of its northern operations, of which the 300/400 series were not adaptable for the gravel kits. Now if CP/PW were smart, they would have taken Boeing up on the deal for, I believe, 45 new 737-300/400 series (of which CP was using for their Attache services YVR/YYC/YEG/YWG-YYZ) and Boeing was offering an amazing deal of almost 1 new jet for each 2 737-200's in return...and utilize the "NG" 37's on southern Canadian routes while reserving 6-8 73M-200adv aircraft for their northern ops. The fuel savings would have been considerable, and rather than ordering 2 new 767-200 (C-GPWA,C-GPWB) converted that order into 4 737-300/400 , their is a slim chance they may have still been around....but we will never know!
You can't get there from here.

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