OPNLguy
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The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:08 am

Remember the study that DFW released back on May 10th, the one that spelled out all the doom and gloom that would befall DFW if the Wright Amendment were repealed, but didn’t discuss anything regarding airfares?

Well, it turns out that was only a “summary” of the study—the complete study –did- discuss airfares. Check out this article at: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/11752968.htm (use http://www.bugmenot.com ). Here are some excerpts, along with some [personal comments…]

“Airfares from North Texas to dozens of cities could drop as much as 50 percent if the Wright Amendment is lifted, according to a recent study commissioned by Dallas/Fort Worth Airport.” [Gad, what a surprise…]

“The airport, a leading proponent of the amendment, released a summary of the study two weeks ago indicating that if flight restrictions were lifted at Dallas Love Field, hundreds of flights would be shifted to Love from D/FW. The summary did not include the findings on fares”. [Gee, I wonder why…]

"If Southwest Airlines is allowed to expand, will fares come down? Absolutely," said Christina Cassotis, the study's author and vice president of Simat, Helliesen & Eichner in Cambridge, Mass. [How nice that they finally admit this…]

“The Star-Telegram obtained the fare data this week from the airport's legal department after submitting a written request for the documents.” [Rather disingenuous of DFW not to have released it to begin with…]

"We weren't trying to hide that issue," said Kevin Cox, the airport's chief operating officer. "We just didn't think anyone was interested in 160 pages of voluminous material." [I’ll just bet they weren't. The results of those 160 pages could have been condensed into readible form, I mean, the newspaper managed to do so. Maybe if they hadn’t sandbagged everyone on releasing the full report, some folks would have come away with a different conclusion on the issue...]

Cassotis said the impact on fares was never intended to be the report's main focus. [Of course, because they don’t –want- it to be...]

"The fare issue is very important to consumers, and so perhaps we should have included it," she said. [Perhaps? You know the fare issue is very important to consumers, the best you can do is “perhaps?…]

The report also calculated that the average fare on all airlines, flying at D/FW or Love Field, would drop 31 percent to Southwest's new destinations, as other carriers are forced to compete. [Competition –works- folks…]

Southwest officials say those low fares are the crux of their argument for repealing the restrictions.

"Anytime you fetter competition, what you have is a penalty to the consumer," Kelleher said.

But airport officials say the debate shouldn't be about fares. [Again, because they don’t –want- it to be. Guess the consumer doesn’t deserve lower fares...]

"Of course fares would go down," said Cox, the D/FW official. "But that shouldn't be the question. The question is, at what expense?" [Actually, it –should- be the question...]

Cox called the fare issue "a red herring" because Southwest can fly to any destination from D/FW, without any potential damage to the airport from lifting the amendment. [DFW is doing a pretty good job of spinning themselves. Southwest has the inherent right, as a business, to decide how to run its business, and if Southwest decides operating at DFW doesn’t make sense for them, that’s their decision, and nobody else’s, whether folks agree with it or not. No red herrings, but what does smells fishy here is DFW’s lack of forthrightness on the whole issue...]

"Southwest is doing an excellent job of spinning this to make it look like they're helping the traveling public," he said. [Well, It sure doesn’t look like DFW is “helping the traveling public” with lower fares, so somebody’s got to…]

Speaking of which, the article also had a fare chart with pre/post-repeal fares…
http://www.star-telegram.com/mld/interactivemedia/fairschart.pdf
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:15 am

It'll be so funny watching DFW collapse under 50% lower air fares...

NOT.

Told you they can't support too full service airports. Only the Hubbing of AA and DL made that possible. Same with any other two airport town.

Thanks for sharing the obvious.
 
texdravid
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:19 am

Good point, 7E7.

DFW is a top domestic/international gateway is due only to AA's and previously, DL's largesse. Otherwise, the DFW region could only support a very limited international presence, and mostly to Latin/South America.

DFW without AA would become like STL, MSY...ok, maybe not that bad, but DFW for most people is just a connecting joint where 80% of the people don't get on/off at DFW.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:37 am

DFW without AA would become like STL, MSY...ok, maybe not that bad, but DFW for most people is just a connecting joint where 80% of the people don't get on/off at DFW.

You're exactly right.

While fares would be impacted, it's not that they would actually be lower. The shift in O&D demand would free up more seats artificially deflating the fares due to over capacity. Essentially, DFW would collapse.

Major thumbs up for God knows how many small airports dependent on DFW for a connection to the rest of the world that would lose air service. Lets here it for Southwest!!!

Southwest going to start serving Abiline? Fort Smith? Whichita Falls?

NOT!

Southwest helps no-one but themselves and large markets where pilling in the pax by the thousands is possible. Period. Thanks for a desire to further fragment the industry.

By the way, all SWA offers is Vanilla and Vanilla sucks.

[Edited 2005-05-27 17:40:05]
 
ssides
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 2):
DFW is a top domestic/international gateway is due only to AA's and previously, DL's largesse. Otherwise, the DFW region could only support a very limited international presence, and mostly to Latin/South America.

True, but only to an extent. AA made a conscious decision to hub its operation here, and a big part of that was potential growth. It's a chicken-or-the-egg argument ... did DFW grow because of AA, or did AA grow due to the growth in the DFW area?

You could make similar arguments for other hubs: DEN, ATL, IAH, MSP, etc.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 2):
DFW without AA would become like STL, MSY...ok, maybe not that bad, but DFW for most people is just a connecting joint where 80% of the people don't get on/off at DFW.

Remember, the DFW area is still the ninth largest metropolitan area in the country. And, in the past 5-6 years, O&D traffic at DFW has grown significantly. I think O&D at DFW is now up to about 60% of traffic (I'm still looking for the figures), up from about 40% several years ago.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 am

And, in the past 5-6 years, O&D traffic at DFW has grown significantly. I think O&D at DFW is now up to about 60% of traffic (I'm still looking for the figures), up from about 40% several years ago.

Not true. If it were, Delta would still be there. Even ORD's O&D is not that high and it supports UA and AA on a larger scale than DFW ever supported DL and AA.

[Edited 2005-05-27 17:49:20]
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:50 am

Boeing 7E7 made a great point..Southwest, to its' credit, does a lot for point to points of larger cities. Those of us that utilize DFW as a connecting point to smaller cities ( FWA, DAY and such) probably would not benefit substantially.
 
bartond
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:51 am

Actually I think it's the 5th or 6th largest metro area in the country but I see your point.

This will be SOOOO interesting to see how this works out. As much as I want to see free competition in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area I don't want to see AA's operation and/or DFW to dwindle down to a second or third tier airport.
 
SESGDL
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
Not true. If it were, Delta would still be there. Even ORD's O&D is not that high and it supports UA and AA on a larger scale than DFW ever supported DL and AA.

No, you're wrong. Read not too recently that DFW's O&D was about 53%, not 60%, but close enough. DFW is the nation's 10th biggest O&D city. ATL's O&D is 45%, so I think ORD's O&D is likely higher than both. Just because a city has high O&D doesn't mean that traffic is high-yielding. DL left DFW because the competition was too much, and they were fighting a loosing battle.

Jeremy
 
atmx2000
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 2):
Good point, 7E7.
DFW is a top domestic/international gateway is due only to AA's and previously, DL's largesse. Otherwise, the DFW region could only support a very limited international presence, and mostly to Latin/South America.

DFW without AA would become like STL, MSY...ok, maybe not that bad, but DFW for most people is just a connecting joint where 80% of the people don't get on/off at DFW.

Hmm, maybe O&D traffic might grow if air fares were more reasonable for flying to/from Dallas to other states.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
You're exactly right.
While fares would be impacted, it's not that they would actually be lower. The shift in O&D demand would free up more seats artificially deflating the fares due to over capacity. Essentially, DFW would collapse.

Why wouldn't the same thing happen if Southwest moved to DFW and opened direct routes to other cities? It seems to me you want limited capacity out of the Dallas-Ft Worth area to jack up fares.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
Major thumbs up for God knows how many small airports dependent on DFW for a connection to the rest of the world that would lose air service. Lets here it for Southwest!!!

Southwest going to start serving Abiline? Fort Smith? Whichita Falls?

So the people of Dallas should pay more to AA to subsidize air travel for people living in these towns?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
jcs17
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
It'll be so funny watching DFW collapse under 50% lower air fares...

NOT.

The whole argument ignores the most basic of demand curves. As AA inevitably drops fares when the Wright Amendment is repealed, more people will be willing to pay a lower price for air travel. Thus, giving a boost to DFW's traffic in addition to DAL's.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

Why wouldn't the same thing happen if Southwest moved to DFW and opened direct routes to other cities? It seems to me you want limited capacity out of the Dallas-Ft Worth area to jack up fares.

They should move. The problem is a two airport system in a one horse demand town. I look at it more as an airport problem than an airline problem.

So the people of Dallas should pay more to AA to subsidize air travel for people living in these towns?

It's a catch 22. DAL is too small to support the Dallas region demand. At the same time DFW is too big to suvive just being a hub. A collapsing DFW is a disaster for the Dallas region with DAL being able to survive and DFW being grossly under utilized to a point of non-economic viability, but still being required to meet demand at unprofitable levels. Talk about subsidization...

No, you're wrong. Read not too recently that DFW's O&D was about 53%, not 60%, but close enough. DFW is the nation's 10th biggest O&D city. ATL's O&D is 45%, so I think ORD's O&D is likely higher than both. Just because a city has high O&D doesn't mean that traffic is high-yielding. DL left DFW because the competition was too much, and they were fighting a loosing battle.

Yawn... They left because of over capacity and insufficient O&D.

The whole argument ignores the most basic of demand curves. As AA inevitably drops fares when the Wright Amendment is repealed, more people will be willing to pay a lower price for air travel. Thus, giving a boost to DFW's traffic in addition to DAL's.

You have some magical stockpile of passengers hiding somewhere in the Dallas area in this over capacity industry?

[Edited 2005-05-27 18:15:23]
 
atmx2000
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
It's a catch 22. DAL is too small to support the Dallas region demand. At the same time DFW is too big to suvive just being a hub. A collapsing DFW is a disaster for the Dallas region with DAL being able to survive and DFW being grossly under utilized to a point of non-economic viability, but still being required to meet demand at unprofitable levels. Talk about subsidization...

If DFW is connected to the larger AA network and offers international service and DAL can't support Dallas region demand, I doubt DFW is going to collapse. Both DFW and AA will simply have to become more efficient.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:35 am

If DFW is connected to the larger AA network and offers international service and DAL can't support Dallas region demand, I doubt DFW is going to collapse. Both DFW and AA will simply have to become more efficient.

That's a false argument.

If demand falls as it would at DFW service is lost and international connection traffic shifts to another hub further impacting DFW fares and service. In addition, the increase in demand puts undue preasure on another hub airport such as ORD or ATL which have their own capacity problems. DFW is vital to the air transportation system as a whole. More efficient? How much more efficient can a carrier get? You can't get much more efficient without negatively impacting system flow. The point to point cost structure is impossible in a hub and spoke structure and the hub and spoke system is vital to the transportation network. DFW will collapse, not vanish, but collapse and be grossly under-utilized at a time where air transportation efficiency is going down the crapper with each passing day. Ironically caused by low cost carriers like southwest who jam the airspace between larger cities with as many flights as possible in 100 seat planes further impacting the national air space system where larger 200 seat aircraft are more appropriate.

The irony of this... The carrier which best benefits from deregulation could push the Air Transportation System to it's brink with it's market cherry picking and a move like this and end up with the Government having no choice but to re-regulate the industry to salvage the airspace and airport capacity problems at large airport brought on by such a move.

How ironic.

[Edited 2005-05-27 18:42:58]
 
planespotting
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
Yawn... They left because of over capacity and insufficient O&D.

DL left because they were extremely close to bankruptcy and had to consolidate their operations into one single hub. It was a cost saving measure. DL's financial statements (Cash Flow) for Q3 and Q4 2004 paint a perfect picture. You'll see a tremendous loss of revenue in Operating Cash Flows (nearly $2 billion in the red). From investing cash flows, they lost over half a billion dollars in Q3 and Q4. but in Q1 2005, (during the time they abandoned the hub at DFW) they only lost 67,000,000 in investing, and actually scored 165 million in cash from operating (quite a jump from losing as much as they did in 2004). So their net cash gain in Q1 2005 was 85 million or so, give or take.

I don't know how much you all know about accounting, but when a company jettisons a huge part of it's operation but somehow ends up making money, it shows you what a large amount of money that operation was taking out of their pocketbooks. Delta needed cash, and they didn't have time to sit at DFW to drain the rest of their excess cash for demand to pick up.

The cash they got from American Express financing helped them out a lot too. It's all about accounting folks!
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Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 1:46 am

The problem dates back to around 1996/1997 when they had to begin removing mainline service and replacing it with RJ service due to a fall off in O&D. The DFW problem didn't happen overnight. Keeping SLC just made more sence systemwise, but even consideration was given in 2000 to moving that operation to LAS.

Thanks for trying though.
 
ikramerica
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 2:30 am

All those "other" texas cities that rely on DFW to connect them to the world?

Well, CO and IAH would be more than happy to provide increased service. Of course, with less competition, prices could increase.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kl662
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Told you they can't support too full service airports. Only the Hubbing of AA and DL made that possible. Same with any other two airport town.

Don't IAH and HOU coexist nicely? Why would the same sort of setup not work for DFW and DAL? Believe me, I'm no fan of Dallas or AA (being from Houston...  Wink), but I have a hard time believing that DFW would "collapse" if WN got to fly wherever they want from DAL... In fact, it seems that DFW is in a better position to compete with DAL than IAH is against HOU given its location. IAH is way north of town, and HOU much more centrally located, while DFW is ~between Ft. Worth and Dallas, right? DAL would appear to be a less central option for the region...
 
incitatus
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 14):
DL left because they were extremely close to bankruptcy and had to consolidate their operations into one single hub.

Delta left after multiple rounds of trying to right-size the operation by making it smaller. That is evidence of the economies of scale of large hubs - it only supports the point of the DFW study that having say 5% reduction in local traffic at DFW has a far larger impact in total traffic.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 3:29 am

Don't IAH and HOU coexist nicely? Why would the same sort of setup not work for DFW and DAL?

IAH's hub operation is much smaller than DFW and right sized for the market and operation, if CO pulled out or cut thier service in half the same problem would exist. When DFW lost DL they got smacked. Further imploding like that by American would make the facility unprofitable. No profit and AA looks elsewhere. Delta did. CO did in DEN and look how it impacted their operation. They are very lucky Frontier came to pass, but they still aren't where they thought they would be in demand.

In fact, it seems that DFW is in a better position to compete with DAL than IAH is against HOU given its location.

If anything, IAH's strength of being right sized hurts DFW. IAH is akin to CVG.

All those "other" texas cities that rely on DFW to connect them to the world?

Well, CO and IAH would be more than happy to provide increased service. Of course, with less competition, prices could increase.


At what inconvenience to the passenger? Fly AUS South to IAH then North past AUS to ICT??? Sounds like a trip on Southwest.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 3:37 am

Earlier posts asked if WN would ever serve Wichita Falls ( SPS ).

The answer to that is obviously no, but AA service is very expensive here.

I live in Wichita Falls, and this spring I was had to book a trip to BNA to visit Vanderbilt University. The advanced purchase fare for a flight from SPS to BNA on AA was $521. From DFW, the fare was $440.

I decided to drive to OKC and fly WN to BNA, and paid $229.

What good is air service to SPS if it so expensive that no one can use it?
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kc135topboom
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 3:53 am

The economic engine DFW thinks they are, needs a tune-up, and the Wright Admendment repealed.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 3:56 am

The answer to that is obviously no, but AA service is very expensive here.

But at least you have service. Hope you like driving.

The economic engine DFW thinks they are, needs a tune-up, and the Wright Admendment repealed.

Several billion lost as a result? More of a tune down.
 
wnsocal
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 4:56 am

OPNLguy.....

Thanks again for your information. I am glad to see you research these things. The other side came only say how the sky will fall if the W/A is gone. In my opinion AA will "right size" thier DFW ops if the W/A falls, which I think it will.

To those who say WN should give up gates at DAL to allow other carriers in I say why don't those carriers give up gates in cities WN would like to serve. Fair is fair, right?

OPNLguy,

I wish you luck on your sparing with all the "pro" folks out there. I don't think anyone will actually listen to what you have to say. I also do not think you will get anyone to come up with a real reason NOT to repel the W/A.
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Xkorpyoh
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting KL662 (Reply 17):
Don't IAH and HOU coexist nicely? Why would the same sort of setup not work for DFW and DAL?



Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 20):
What good is air service to SPS if it so expensive that no one can use it?

I agree with both of you. IAH/HOU, ORD-MDW, LGA-JFK-EWR, MIA-FLL, all do well and bring competition that is good for the flying public. The expensive fares to smaller airports are afforded only by companies that can pay for it.
I the demand is still there for high paying passengers, i am sure the flights will continue with or without W/A.

Sort off topic but related. Doesn't the bill allows for 70paxs planes to flight anywhere from DAL?! I am thinking that a 2 cabin E170 would be an ideal plane for DAL to serve many destinations nonstop. Maybe jetBlue wakes up and takes advantage of this loophol. E170 with PTV and the renowned B6 service would be a great competition for both WN and AA out of DAL.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
You have some magical stockpile of passengers hiding somewhere in the Dallas area in this over capacity industry?

Speaking from personal experience with business, family, and leisure... if a Texas Two-Step is required, it's either drive or teleconfrence.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 22):
Several billion lost as a result? More of a tune down.

If that's true, then it's time to kill the levianthan we created. This sort of doom and gloom has never happened in other metroplex, so yeah, I'll take the risk.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 22):
But at least you have service. Hope you like driving.

Buddy, that's all we do now anyway. You do really think Eagle service to DFW-ABL would contribute as much to the economy as DAL-MDW ?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):
That's a false argument.

Funny... it's exactly what happened to American Airlines at MIA when they began facing subsantial competition at FLL. They trimmed opperations, increased efficency, lowered fares, and began recieiving more passengers and higher yields as a result.

It's a "false argument" that has proven historically accurate...  hissyfit 
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:21 am

Funny... it's exactly what happened to American Airlines at MIA when they began facing subsantial competition at FLL. They trimmed opperations, increased efficency, lowered fares, and began recieiving more passengers and higher yields as a result.

Different market, different forces and a different result.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 26):
Different market, different forces and a different result.

Oh... okay, just checkin. Because people buying tickets for the right flight and the right price really changes dramatically from market to market

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 24):

Sort off topic but related. Doesn't the bill allows for 70paxs planes to flight anywhere from DAL?!

56 seats. At which point you are opperaing CRJ (which DL tried) or uneconomically flying larger aircraft with seat-caps.

Legend Airlines tried the latter, installing premium 56-seat cabins in DC9 and flying DAL-LAS, DAL-IAD, and others. Needless to say, they were held up by legal action by AA, and when AA lost, they copied the strategy with F100s until Legend dissolved. After they were gone, AA promptly cancelled their DAL opperations at converted the F100 back to mainline service.

[Edited 2005-05-27 22:30:00]
 
OPNLguy
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 23):
Thanks again for your information. I am glad to see you research these things. The other side came only say how the sky will fall if the W/A is gone. In my opinion AA will "right size" thier DFW ops if the W/A falls, which I think it will.

This thread has been so badly hijacked that I wondered when someone would have an on-topic post...  Wink

I can't claim credit for the research--the Ft. Worth paper did that--I just thought I'd start a thread that shows the "missing" information, and how it didn't have to be that way. That fact that it was all withheld by design would seem to indicate that DFW/AA are pretty desperate to go and pull a stunt like this.

One of my co-workers told me a little while ago that former Rep. Jim Wright himself was just quoted in the local news as saying something to the effect that increased air traffic from Wright Amendment repeal will create safety problems with ATC. Aside from the fact that Jim Wright isn't professionally qualified to even make that assessment, the North Texas area had a major airspace redesign back in 1996, and his new FUD-fears are unfounded. Next they'll claim repeal will cause the Earth to implode...  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:37 am

Oh... okay, just checkin. Because people buying tickets for the right flight and the right price really changes dramatically from market to market

Miami was near max runway capacity with no room to grow and still no room to grow and the shift would have happened anyway. DFW met it's bond obligation status for construction by showing the closure of DAL and future demand required a new airport, not that they needed a new airport in support of DAL. You can't just build an airport because you want to. You have to show the required demand or your construction bonds are junk. People didn't sit in a room and think up a plan to make DFW just for AA as SWA would have you believe. This situation is so damn convoluted at this point and none of you people know half the truth. The truth lies in airport finance rules, rules which cannot be broken, rules that would have prevented the construction of DFW if the intent were to have DAL open today.

The Wright Ammendment was designed to protect the DFW bond status not American Airlines. The theory being that by limiting service it would not be competitive and therefore have minimal impact on it's growth which was needed to repay the debt. By luck, it took off as a DL and AA hub.

But you all want to talk this airline competition horse crap. Never seen a crowd so incredibly deaf on airport finance. Lets all raise a glass to the Dallas Regions two future Ghetto-ports! The entire airport consulting industry knows Dallas can't afford both and are waiting with bated breath to see the implosion.

[Edited 2005-05-27 22:49:47]
 
wnsocal
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 28):
Next they'll claim repeal will cause the Earth to implode...

This remind me of the other thread where you posted that repeal of the W/A causes baldness.....

That was so funny I was rolling.
Airline Nut
 
Xkorpyoh
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:55 am

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 27):
Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 24):

Sort off topic but related. Doesn't the bill allows for 70paxs planes to flight anywhere from DAL?!

56 seats. At which point you are opperaing CRJ (which DL tried) or uneconomically flying larger aircraft with seat-caps.

thnks DFWR for the correction. got the 56 confused with 70.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
DFW met it's bond obligation status for construction by showing the closure of DAL and future demand required a new airport, not that they needed a new airport in support of DAL

A federal judge also ruled that no party had the legal right to close DAL, so whose kidding whom?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
You can't just build an airport because you want to

Nor can you close one

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):

But you all want to talk this airline competition horse crap.

Because that's all that's left of the Wright Ammendment!! DFW airport is coming up on 30 years old, it's one of the biggest airports in the world, and it has strong domestic and international traffic. However, the arguement is being made that impact of 32-gate DAL being unrestricted would cripple DFW's competitive edge? Gimmie a break.


Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
The entire airport consulting industry knows Dallas can't afford both and are waiting with bated breath to see the implosion

Oh really? Like the Boyd Group, North Dallas Business Chamber, or even the Federal Trade Commission?

Let's not unnecessarily exaggerate here...  Wink
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 6:51 am

A federal judge also ruled that no party had the legal right to close DAL, so whose kidding whom?

After the fact.


Nor can you close one

I can name several. Can you????

Because that's all that's left of the Wright Ammendment!! DFW airport is coming up on 30 years old, it's one of the biggest airports in the world, and it has strong domestic and international traffic. However, the arguement is being made that impact of 32-gate DAL being unrestricted would cripple DFW's competitive edge? Gimmie a break.

How much was just spent on International Capacity? How will significant degredation of domestic capacity impact the bond rating for the future? Or are you blind to what happened to it when DL left?

Oh really? Like the Boyd Group, North Dallas Business Chamber, or even the Federal Trade Commission?

You're killing me if this is all you have.

As for Boyd... The guys bread and butter is small market air service so he's contradicting himself, and most of what he says is dry comedy intended to raise dander. His knowledge is airline operational based and I'm affraid to say the guy doesn't know jack diddly about airport finance or demand forecasting. He thinks in Airline terms with a 10 year trap on the end of the horizon. This idiot thinks Denver is a mistake, and while it may be expensive today, when 50 years passes there will be a sigh of relief in the Mile High city because they still have 100+ years of space to grow into at DEN and they aren't looking for a new place for an airport while others are using eminant domain to wipe out entire neighborhoods.

Open competition, great, but the truth remains, the market cannot support both airports. Period. This was known 30 years ago and it's known today. But hey, go ahead... See what happens.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 33):
the market cannot support both airports

Says who? DFW?

The FTC summary that I linked, from 1992, states clear as crystal-

"In a letter signed by the FTC's Dallas Regional Office Director, Tom Carter, the FTC staff noted that while restrictions on flights beyond the five-state area might have been helpful in assuring the initial success of D/FW, the airport is now well established, and modifying the restrictions could offer significant benefits to consumers."

The recent investments in SkyTrain and Terminal D only strengthen the fact that if the Wright Ammendment were to end, the airport (nor region nor consumers) would not suffer agregious loss.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 33):
You're killing me if this is all you have.

Oh excuse me: you're 9 post have been nothing but "not-uhhs" and "well that market is different," without a single outside source.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 33):
Or are you blind to what happened to it when DL left?

As we say in Texas: what crawled up your ass and died? You are getting way, way, to aggitated for a discussion on airport regulation.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 33):
This was known 30 years ago and it's known today

By who? Show us or shut-up... I've got the FTC on my side saying this isn't the case. What do you have? You're own personal opinion shared by DFW?
 
bigb
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 7:23 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 19):
At what inconvenience to the passenger? Fly AUS South to IAH then North past AUS to ICT??? Sounds like a trip on Southwest.

AUS to IAH is only about a 30 min hop. That kind of trip has a similar total flt. time compare to AUS-DFW-ICT.

Boeing7E7
Man, take a chill pill. DFW will be alright. AA and International carriers using the new terminal will have to foot most of the bill for the damn thing to be built. Repealing the WA, will not affect DFW too much.

1. AA isn't gonna shift their hub ops from DFW to DAL.
2. Airlines like UA, NW, UA, and friends will not pour heavy amount of money into DAL just to have a few gates and a few flights out of DAL.
3. DAL doesn't have the ability to handle International flights, unless they are able to blow dust off of the old custom facilities.

Come on, If the WA is repeal. WN will increase ops at DAL thus forcing AA and friends to lower fares out of DFW. But with Supply and Demand, lower fares means more peeps will be flying. LAW of DEMAND. Folks in smaller cities around DFW will still be able to connect in DFW if the WA repeal. Don't have a cow man.
ETSN Baber, USN
 
PassBureauMgr
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 7:34 am

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 8:03 am

If the WA amendment is trashed, there will be a jetBlue effect in the Dallas area. Fares will decrease at DFW, and some carriers will go a$$ over tea kettle to get into Love, only to pull out later cause they have a difficult time competing with WN. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see WestJet hit Love with a trip to Calgary. AA is so reactionary, they will send some 80's over to Love to compete, and maybe just maybe we will see something like there was with Braniff, Texas International & Southwest from the 70's. A free bottle of Wild Turkey goes with the fare you pay.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting PassBureauMgr (Reply 36):
If the WA amendment is trashed, there will be a jetBlue effect in the Dallas area.

Where else in B6 system has this happened? It sounds like you're morphing their contrasting JFK and ATL experience into an "effect."  confused 

Quoting PassBureauMgr (Reply 36):
Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see WestJet hit Love with a trip to Calgary

I would be... there are no gates at DAL configured for INS, which would probably have to be financed by Westjet if they wanted service. It would be much more sensible for them to service DFW.
 
SunValley
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:51 am

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
I would be... there are no gates at DAL configured for INS, which would probably have to be financed by Westjet if they wanted service. It would be much more sensible for them to service DFW

With all due respect, WestJet has on more than one occasion said they would be very interested in YYC-DAL service.

I believe PassB is referring to the "jetBlue effect", as in analyst circles, this is spoken of very commonly of when B6 enters some markets several other airlines will jump into the market and flood it with flights to the same city, although it may be a different airport, only later to re-trench and cut back or stop service on the route. AA has exhibited extreme reaction to this in the past.

[Edited 2005-05-28 02:22:29]
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:32 am

By who? Show us or shut-up... I've got the FTC on my side saying this isn't the case. What do you have? You're own personal opinion shared by DFW?

The FTC says? Laughable. Just like any other government dung hole. They're about as accurate and helpful as the FAA when it comes to airports. Not to mention the study is from 1992, a bit outdated I'd say. Note to self. 30 empty gates at an airport indicates to a region that a second airport is in demand.  Yeah sure

[Edited 2005-05-28 03:37:15]
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Thread starter):
Note to self. 30 empty gates at an airport indicates to a region that a second airport is in demand.

Of course, it couldn't -possibly- mean that the terms of acquiring all those gates (10/20/30, whatever) are so full of conditions, or that an airline that uses them will then be battling the 900 pound GorillAA....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:52 am

Of course, it couldn't -possibly- mean that the terms of acquiring all those gates (10/20/30, whatever) are so full of conditions, or that an airline that uses them will then be battling the 900 pound GorillAA....

The condition of abandoning DAL as a commerical airport and having competition like everyone else??? This isn't about the airlines anyway, it's about the airport so quit the sob airline competition story. It's gotten old from both airlines. Fact is SWA at DFW would put a competitive spanking on AA given the SWA target markets.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:55 am

The conditions I was referring to were the 10 gate minimun, and the minimum usage requirements...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:57 am

The conditions I was referring to were the 10 gate minimun, and the minimum usage requirements...

You could easily fill 15 and op 10 per a day at DFW, if not 20 gates and 10 per day. The gate minimum and utilization was to force a move not a split operation.

[Edited 2005-05-28 03:57:54]
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting SunValley (Reply 38):
B6 enters some markets several other airlines will jump into the market and flood it with flights to the same city, although it may be a different airport, only later to re-trench and cut back or stop service on the route. AA has exhibited extreme reaction to this in the past.

Ahh... that makes sense.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 41):
This isn't about the airlines anyway, it's about the airport so quit the sob airline competition story. It's gotten old from both airlines.

But you must recognize that in this issue, the two are not mutually exclusive. It's two home teams with their own stadium, one wanting equal opportunity as the other. The airports and airlines are intrinsically linked, and really, you got the airline ball rolling from the first few posts.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 39):
The FTC says? Laughable.

I'm still waiting for anything on your side...
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 11:03 am

But you must recognize that in this issue, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Not today, but they were 30 years ago. This is the exact problem they wanted to avoid. DFW in an overcapacity situation with DAL still open. DEN did it Wright.... DFW/DAL did it not-so Wright.

There's an easy solution. Pay for the SWA move and close DAL to commercial service.

I'm still waiting for anything on your side...

Read the original bond statements. They're available, but for whatever reason no one want's to discuss that issue. Did a paper on it in years ago in undergrad.

[Edited 2005-05-28 04:03:47]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 2):
DFW is a top domestic/international gateway is due only to AA's and previously, DL's largesse. Otherwise, the DFW region could only support a very limited international presence, and mostly to Latin/South America.

We all seem to forget BN's involvement in DFW before their collapse

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 19):
IAH's hub operation is much smaller than DFW and right sized for the market and operation

IAH is still a massive hub operation for CO and CO is in just as dominant position there as AA is at DFW

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 32):
A federal judge also ruled that no party had the legal right to close DAL, so whose kidding whom?

Twice

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
I would be... there are no gates at DAL configured for INS, which would probably have to be financed by Westjet if they wanted service. It would be much more sensible for them to service DFW.

Actually, since DAL has a customs facility, WS would be able to fly there because of pre-clearence. The would actually fly out of domestic gates

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 41):
The condition of abandoning DAL as a commerical airport and having competition like everyone else???

With that logic, BUR, ONT, LGB and SNA should all be closed
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
With that logic, BUR, ONT, LGB and SNA should all be closed

Let me take this one for Boeing7E7....

Those markets are different!  Wink
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 11:21 am

BUR

An integral part of LAWA's point to point service with expansion limited. Serves as an LAX reliever.

ONT

See Burbank.


LGB

Different operating authority.

SNA

See LGB.

IAH is still a massive hub operation for CO and CO is in just as dominant position there as AA is at DFW

Dominant? Yes. Massive? 1/3 less than DFW in present state and less than half of what ORD and ATL do.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: The "rest Of The Story" On DFW's 5/10 Study

Sat May 28, 2005 12:56 pm

For the AA / DFW fans here (the ones who claim that the incremental increase in service to DAL which would result from repeal of the Wright Amendment), a few questions:

1. Why did AA build their MX facility at AFW instead of DFW, where their hub is located?

2. Why has AA expanded their TUL MX base, instead of expanding at DFW, where their hub is located?

3. Why did AA build their extensive reservation facility at Tulsa instead of at DFW?

4. Why does FedEx have a very active sorting hub at AFW instead of at DFW?

5. Should FedEx have been precluded from building this facilityat AFW, away from DFW? Why or why not?

6. Should FedEx be precluded from flying beyond the Wright Amendment area from AFW? Why or why not?
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