jetbluefan1
Posts: 2883
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First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:21 am

Flight 290 operated by B6 left BUR 1.5 hrs. late this morning, but is now making a fuel stop at BUF. I know that there was speculation that a fully loaded 320 cannot make it all the way out here to Long Island from BUR. However, I thought that JetBlue caps the flights at 135 from BUR-JFK (no cap on the JFK-BUR portion though). What gives?

Also, will the passengers on this flight be given compensation? I would think a $50 credit would work just fine, but I don't think B6 wants to give those credits out all summer. Should the cap be reduced to 130?

Any comments and speculation is welcome!

JetBluefan1
 
737-990
Posts: 335
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:39 am

Incredible that its making all the way to BUF before it makes a fuel stop. As for compensation if B6 does what all the other airlines out of BUR do then no compensation is coming.
Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
 
tinpusher007
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:41 am

UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
dutchjet
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:44 am

Range issues are tight with a fully loaded A320 on the transcon routes - occassionally fuel stops will be required depending on loads, winds, and other factors. I do not know if operations out of BUR (as opposed to other LA area airports) make such a difference, but I think that BUR has some runway issues which could prevent JetBlue from topping off the fuel tanks. Fuel stops may happen once in a while, when all of the factors are working against the flight on a specific day, but I do not think that fuel stops will become a regular thing, JetBlue will adjust payloads on the flights and may reduce the number of seats sold (all of which cost money of course) if nonstop operations on BUR-JFK become a regular problem. Fuel stops cost money and upset operations - something that JetBlue wants to avoid.

As for compensating the passengers due to a fuel stop - why? It happens from time to time in normal operations (just like delays and cancellations) and JetBlue got the pax from Burbank to JFK, even if they were a little late in arriving and got a sidetrip to BUF. No compensation is necessary and such action by JetBlue would be extraordinary.
 
m404
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:44 am

Was that flight able to use the optimum runway? Did the wind change after the flight was planned and loaded? Would assume this might be a wakeup call to flight planners AND the sales department to watch loads. It would be interesting to see which department has the most say. Whenever a sales department gets too strong this kind of thing can happen. Was the delay what caused the temp to rise beyond expected TO figures?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
DCAYOW
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:51 am

When I had a "technical landing" on B6 JFK-(ABQ)-SAN - I had an e-mail from jetBlue the very next day with a $25 e-voucher to use on a future B6 flight.

I didn't really mind the stop in ABQ - I had never landed there before so I got to see a new airport.

I did think the e-mail with the voucher was a great touch. That is why they are such a good airline.
Retorne ao céu...
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?

It has nothing to do with range issues, but has everything to do with BUR. The runway length and terrain of the area combine to make it necessary to carry less fuel and passengers. When the Santa Ana winds are blowing, it is worse.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 5:56 am

That close to JFK, it sounds more like a diversion than a fuel stop. There are thunderstorms between BUF and JFK, and JFK has them in the forecast. Perhaps they got held airborne...? Wind bust (not as much tailwind as forecast) thus a bigger burn?

Fuel stops usually stop somewhere in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the intended trip distance, not at the tail end of the flight...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
737-990
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:01 am

OPNLguy - I think your right. The weather back east is going to be a big problem for B6 out of BUR. I bet they're carrying min fuel and not one pound extra for weather problems or ATC delays.
Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:06 am

OPNLguy,

I called into 1.800.JetBlue and they said that it's a fuel stop (the guy checked with his supervisor).

And BTW the weather is just gorgeous here. But according to the radar map on jetblue.com's flight tracker, we should be getting hit with rain within a couple of hours. As if we haven't had enough clouds this past week...

JetBluefan1
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Fuel stops usually stop somewhere in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the intended trip distance, not at the tail end of the flight...

Depends on the situation. If you cross a body of water you may have to stop later in the flight. European carriers that fly over the pole from Asia do technical stops in Scandinavia. On a flight to Europe that's at the end. Also SAA from JFK to Johannesburg does an occasional stop just before reaching South Africa in Namibia, Windhoek I believe.
 
mav75
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:07 am

BUR has two runways: 15/33 (9,889 ft.) and 8/26 (5,801 ft.). The airport elevation is 788 ft. Without getting too in depth, the higher the airport is above sea level, the less dense the air becomes. This results in additional thrust required to produce the same amount of lift you would get at lower altitudes. Temperature also plays a large part in air density; the higher the temperature, the less dense the air becomes.

All that having been said, if the winds require a departure on the shorter runway on a hot day, the takeoff weight of the airplane has to be reduced in order to allow a legal (not to mention safe) takeoff.

In order to reduce takeoff weight, you're either going to take a hit with payload (read: passengers and their bags) or fuel. If the weather is good enough, you'll probably cut into your fuel cushion to get everyone on board. Additionally, flights from west to east get a push from the jet stream, depending on where it happens to be on a particular day. This saves time and fuel.

As far as this flight was concerned, it could be that they put on less of a fuel cushion than normal and the jet stream either wasn't as strong as forecast or it was in a location other than forecast. So in this case, the calculated risk of avoiding a fuel stop didn't pay off. Still, all of the passengers got to JFK without getting bumped. It probably only took an extra 20 minutes for the fuel stop.

So should passengers be compensated for this? I don't think so. They weren't inconvenienced all that much. I personally would rather be on a flight that needed to stop for fuel rather than not on it at all. I'm sure those passengers felt the same way.
 
atcrick
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:20 am

Fuel stops are common mainly in the Summer but alot of them could be avoided should the company people that sell these routes talk to someone who has a clue about operations. Then the feasibilities could be discussed, i.e. build a fuel stop in so the pax would be expecting it and not be upset. However on days when it wasn't required the pax would be very happy. Or, if the company absolutely did not want to do fuel stops then what the flight would have to be capped at to ensure a nonstop flight.
natch!!
 
N766UA
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Mav75 (Reply 11):
BUR has two runways: 15/33 (9,889 ft.) and 8/26 (5,801 ft.). The airport elevation is 788 ft.

That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited? If you can't get a full A320 off in 9,800 feet something is wrong. Unless the winds were gusting over 25 or something, I don't understand why they wouldn't just opt for the longer runway, anyway. They're taking off, not landing... you can takeoff with a crosswind.
This Website Censors Me
 
Kahala777
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
Flight 290 operated by B6 left BUR 1.5 hrs. late this morning, but is now making a fuel stop at BUF

Uh Oh.....

Not good for an inaugural flight!


Regards - Kahala777
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):

That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited?

Obstacles...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
737-990
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:29 am

Mav75 - You just added 3,000 feet to Burbank's runway. Runway 15/33 is 6,889 feet long.
Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting M404 (Reply 4):
Was that flight able to use the optimum runway? Did the wind change after the flight was planned and loaded? Would assume this might be a wakeup call to flight planners AND the sales department to watch loads.

I went back and looked at past METARs, and it looks like they would have been departing off 15, which gives the best weights. (When BUR goes off 33, it gets -UGLY-).

I can assure you on behalf of my counterparts at JetBlue that the "flight planners" (We're called "dispatchers") are far from being asleep. Places like BUR can be challenging, and loads are considered, and adjusted...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
iowaman
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited?



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 15):
Obstacles...

To Clarify BUR's longest Runway is 6,899.
 
HPRamper
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 5):
I didn't really mind the stop in ABQ - I had never landed there before so I got to see a new airport.

Did you get to go inside at all? I'm assuming you just waited in the aircraft. ABQ is a very new, very nice airport. Definitely among my top 5.
 
avek00
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 12):
Fuel stops are common mainly in the Summer

Actually, they're more common in the WINTER - the jet stream dips further south, intensifying the winds.
Live life to the fullest.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:05 am

Uh Oh.....

Not good for an inaugural flight!


Eh?? The inaugural flight was on Tuesday. The flight I'm referring to is today's (Friday). BTW, The inaugural flight got in on-time.

JetBluefan1
 
N766UA
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 18):
To Clarify BUR's longest Runway is 6,899.

I withdraw my statement.
This Website Censors Me
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
UMM...doesn't the jetstream flow from West to East. They should have a tailwind from BUR to JFK. How is it that they make it westbound without a fuel stop?

It is not a range issue, range does not really come into affect until you try doing BOS-West Coast. The issue is BUR's length, upslope and heat. Still, a fuel stop in BUF does seem a bit late in the game
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Goldenshield
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:21 am

Taking off on 33, you are going UP hill, which is a reason for the large weight hits we get.

Runway 8 is closed to departures for all aircraft over 12,500 pounds.

As OPNL stated, we are far from asleep. We also do everything in our power to avoid a tech stop.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 24):
Taking off on 33, you are going UP hill, which is a reason for the large weight hits we get.

I think the giant mountain in the take off direction adds to that. This is certainly not the fault of the dispatchers, rather a risk that B6 took in deciding to run BUR services
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
I think the giant mountain in the take off direction adds to that. This is certainly not the fault of the dispatchers, rather a risk that B6 took in deciding to run BUR services

Exactly. If we ran BUR-BWI or BUR-ISP, we could have similar problems, and they'd be a given if 33 was in use.

I wonder if anyone has ever considered a Navy surplus steam catapault for BUR?  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 26):
Exactly. If we ran BUR-BWI or BUR-ISP, we could have similar problems, and they'd be a given if 33 was in use.

Actually, off of 15, your 73Ws should not have nearly the issue of B6's A320s. You guys have more range and better performance. The 73H/8 would likely not have the same issues either.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 26):
I wonder if anyone has ever considered a Navy surplus steam catapault for BUR?

Or using Hollywood Way as a third runway? Big grin
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Or using Hollywood Way as a third runway?

As long as we don't have to fuelstop at the Chevron...  Wink

(I know it's not there anymore...)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 28):
As long as we don't have to fuelstop at the Chevron...

Actually, I put my mom on a WN flight to PHX yesterday (most people probably know why) and actually took a look at the empty field that was the Chevron (and a chinese restaurant). To bad it isn't still there. Gas would be easy to get Big grin.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Goldenshield
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 7:59 am

Wait. A gas station AND a chinese restuarant?

Gag me. :P
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 30):
Wait. A gas station AND a chinese restuarant?

No actually, the restaurant was next door and was removed along with the Chevron after the Southwest Shuffle. Still, you should see New Orleans where you get fuel, chinese, daqueris and a laundramat in the same place
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sllevin
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Fuel stops usually stop somewhere in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the intended trip distance, not at the tail end of the flight...

I'm sure they were trying to make it non-stop, and either failed to meet a release point criterion or got stuck in a long hold.

I suspect we'll see a lot of this, because the route, everything considered, is marginal, and there will be a lot of days where they'll gamble on making it.

Only on 33 departures will you see them forced into using ONT. Once you've released beyond ONT, you might as well go for broke and hope you get lucky  Smile

Steve
 
Lockheed1011
Posts: 154
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:02 am

That sucks!

If I pay for a non-stop flight I want non-stop and no cheap excuses. That is very unprofessional on behalf of B6. They should restrict the pay-load, get different equipment or not service the route. I am very disappointed to see B6 becoming just another careless carrier.

Weather problems, a mechanical or emergency I do understand, but a fuel stop because not enough range it is unacceptable.  Sad
 
ikramerica
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:22 am

If only they were running a 73G/A319 on the route. Sometimes one model doesn't fit all, I guess.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
N1120A
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 33):
If I pay for a non-stop flight I want non-stop and no cheap excuses. That is very unprofessional on behalf of B6. They should restrict the pay-load, get different equipment or not service the route. I am very disappointed to see B6 becoming just another careless carrier.

Weather problems, a mechanical or emergency I do understand, but a fuel stop because not enough range it is unacceptable.

This is something that happens to all airlines from time to time. It happens on some routes more often, but normally doesn't. Remember, B6 had 3 flights yesterday and only one was knocked down. Also, it was rather close to JFK, so they likely did not have a range issue, rather one that was involved with some sort of delay into JFK. Airlines lose customers if their flights constantly have to fuel stop, so they evaluate conditions thoroughly before starting a route (with the exception of AS doing YVR-SNA Big grin)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Goldenshield
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:27 am

Lockheed --

I feel that B6 made a wise decision to stop for fuel. Despite the delay that happened to the passengers, the dispatcher and the captain made the decision to make the fuel stop in order to safely complete the flight. Perhaps the planned burn was off due to a change in the wind. Perhaps the flight had received a reroute while enroute that took it far off it's original route, or perhaps the flight was decended in order to meet a cap due to capacity, as often happens to aircraft going to JFK that traverses Chicago center's airspace. Neither you nor I will know the true reason why this plane stopped, but like I said above, it was all about the safety of the flight.

We, both the captain and the dispatchers, are looking out for you. We don't want to divert for fuel, or any other reason, as much as you do, but when we have to, we will.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
flyboyaz
Posts: 2077
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:31 am

They could do what WN did and just drive through the fence and stop at the gas station on the way!! hehe...I know that was bad....was that what you guys were referring to with the Chevron?
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:36 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 37):
was that what you guys were referring to with the Chevron?

yes
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 33):
That is very unprofessional on behalf of B6.

Perhaps they should have continued to JFK then? Take their chances? It was an accident, it happens.

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 33):
I am very disappointed to see B6 becoming just another careless carrier.

Carelessness would be marked in an attempt to continue to JFK. Believe me, if it costs the company thousands of dollars to stop for fuel, they are NOT doing it because they're " careless ".
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
OPNLguy
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 33):
Weather problems, a mechanical or emergency I do understand, but a fuel stop because not enough range it is unacceptable.

Aircraft performance involves a number of variables, and the majority of the time, the combination of those variables will permit the non-stop operation that all of us love to see.

Sometimes, an adverse variable or two crop up, you don't get an optimum takeoff weight (enough to handle the mission) and you end up choosing between either pumping passengers (and going non-stop) or fuel stopping (and taking everyone, albeit a little late).

It has zippo to do with professionalism. It does have to do with various perfomance considerations that must complied with...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mav75
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2000 10:02 am

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
That's the same elevation as Cleveland. I don't get this: 9,800 ft. runway, normal airport elevation... why in the heck are they limited? If you can't get a full A320 off in 9,800 feet something is wrong. Unless the winds were gusting over 25 or something, I don't understand why they wouldn't just opt for the longer runway, anyway. They're taking off, not landing... you can takeoff with a crosswind.

N766UA, you need to stay in school. You can't opt for the longer runway if the crosswind component exceeds the aircraft's limitations. It's illegal and stupid. What if you had an emergency on takeoff and had to return to that runway? Now you're screwed and in the middle of everything else, you have to find a suitable alternate to land at.

Everyone who corrected me on the length of 15/33, I apologize...it is 6886...I looked at the 10-9 upside down.
 
lowecur
Posts: 512
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 12:21 pm

There has to be more to it than fuel. The weather at BUR was perfect in the morning: 9am 65 degrees SE 9 haze. Heat or wind would play no part in minimizing fuel before takeoff. That plane should have been able to take off with a tad below MTOW and a range of close to 2800nm on a 6800' runway. The Westerlies were blowing pretty good across country all day, thus making the trip much easier. Either the weather in the East played a large part in the decision to refuel with holiday traffic backed up, or they miscalculated their fuel needs.

[Edited 2005-05-28 05:22:41]

[Edited 2005-05-28 05:30:33]
 
flyboyaz
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:32 am

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 1:09 pm

We had the same problem in TUS with the nonstop to EWR on the B735. Though the problems were mostly on the EWR-TUS segment. It stopped numerous times for fuel. A few times out to EWR we had weight restrictions but it was usually due to the airport closing the main runway. I never heard anyone complain about the stops, except for the crew of course.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 1:53 pm

WOW! Looks like this summer will be an interesting one with B6's A320s . . . . It only gets hotter from here!!!
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
Meteorologist
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:01 pm

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 2:35 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
Quoting ATCRick (Reply 12):
Fuel stops are common mainly in the Summer

Actually, they're more common in the WINTER - the jet stream dips further south, intensifying the winds.

While the jet stream does dip farther south in WINTER, today's jet features strong SWerly flow from Southern California straight up into southern New England...many areas in excess of 110 kts east of the Mississippi River. In fact, the subtropical and polar jets phasing somewhere near MCI probably makes all the difference in the world. I'd expect a helluva lot of fuel stops in the OTHER direction today.
 
N200WN
Posts: 695
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RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 2:53 pm

I can't believe so many people are making such a big deal about a fuel stop.

B6 operates three flights a day and the other two that day didn't require a fuel stop. It would be interesting to know what the conditions were when the other two flights departed. Was it later in the day when it's warmer? Same runway? Pax loads, etc. What was different?

I'm sure this won't be the norm and if it becomes a problem more often than it should I'm sure they will restrict the pax loads.

There will be flights all summer long on all sorts of airlines doing unscheduled fuel/tech stops. I sure hope to be on one them!

Back in summer '00 when WN was still running -200's all over the place dispatch placed one on a hot Friday night flight from SAT-LAS (normally a 733). The flight had to do a fuel stop in AUS to take advantage of the longer runways at the new airport there. Sometimes conditions warrant these things.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 3:02 pm

At an airline I -used- to work for, we had to fuelstop a 737-200 TWICE between HOU and JAX. The stops were in MSY and TLH.

The reasons?

1/ A -200 "Basic" (not an ADVanced), with -7 engines.

2/ A max landing structural landing weight of only 98,000 lbs.

3/ Hot muggy day along the Gulf Coast, with thunderstorms EVERYWHERE (requiring holding fuel and long alternates).

4/ Only a 23,000 lb. max fuel capacity.

5/ A large charter group, full flight.

As you you can see, sometimes the variables can -really- gang up on you...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Coronado990
Posts: 1314
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting N200WN (Reply 46):
It would be interesting to know what the conditions were when the other two flights departed.

It looks like it is not so much as to when the two other flights departed BUR but when they arrive JFK, which is later at night or early in the morning when there isn't as much traffic approaching JFK. Flt 290 was scheduled to land at 3:30p, but if it was 1.5hr late, then I would assume a 5:00p arrival at JFK would require having to circle considering it is the busiest time there. Being on time might be the secret to avoiding future fuel stops at BUF.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: First B6 BUR-JFK Fuel Stop: We Saw It Coming!

Sat May 28, 2005 3:53 pm

Quoting Mav75 (Reply 41):
N766UA, you need to stay in school. You can't opt for the longer runway if the crosswind component exceeds the aircraft's limitations. It's illegal and stupid. What if you had an emergency on takeoff and had to return to that runway? Now you're screwed and in the middle of everything else, you have to find a suitable alternate to land at.

Everyone who corrected me on the length of 15/33, I apologize...it is 6886...I looked at the 10-9 upside down.

N766UA had a good point except that he did not look at airnav to pick up the mistake

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 47):
At an airline I -used- to work for, we had to fuelstop a 737-200 TWICE between HOU and JAX. The stops were in MSY and TLH.

Sounds like a fun day at Air Florida
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