gilesdavies
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 am

I just loved this story in the Independent Newspaper today by their travel writer Simon Calder it really made me chuckle!

Apparently easyJet flight 2203 LTN-MAD was delayed for over an hour as the aircraft had to have all the Food and Drinks Trollys taken off including the Inflight Magazines as the aircraft was over the Maximum Take Off weight. They decided to do this as opposed to offloading any of the 149 passengers on the flight.

It does make me wonder how the aircraft a 737-700 was over the maximum weight as as these aircrafts operate on a lot longer routes and with the same number of passengers in an all Y configuration to destinations like Cyprus, Greece and the Canary Islands. Austraus springs to mind!

I think the actual reason is the pilot had miscalculated the amount of fuel required for the flight in relation to the weight of the payload and not had time to order additional fuel. Could LTN's 7000ft runway also be a factor?

Here is the news article if you want a chuckle - (I would copy and paste it - but think I will get in trouble if I do that!)...

http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/story.jsp?story=641868



[Edited 2005-05-29 00:06:22]
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:00 am

It isn't uncommon to remove pax, luggage, freight on some flights do to needed fuel loads combined with high altitude ops (MEX, DEN for example) or very hot weather (PHX in the summer for example). I have never heard of offloading the food/beverage services to reduce MTOW.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:00 am

Quote:
They decided to do this as opposed to offloading any of the 149 passengers on the flight.

How would you like to be the passenger that was booted to make room for drinks?

Quote:
I think the actual reason is the pilot had miscalculated the amount of fuel required for the flight in relation to the weght of the payload.

I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Could LTN's 7000ft runway also been a factor?

Yes. Along with destination runway length, temperature at departure and destination, and a host of other factors that play in to it. It's no simple matter of "is the weight below certified max gross".
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
KennyK
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am

Had an experience similar to this a few years ago on a Loganair Saab 340 on a relatively short trip from Edinburgh to the Shetlands. The Captain informed us there would be no food or drink on the flight as due to the number of passengers and winds at our destination the aircraft weight was marginal to get in at our destination.

The other options were to loose a passenger off the flight or stop to refuel on the way back.
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:07 am

Wait until the A380 enters service - methinks alot of folks on SIN-LHR and LAX-SYD will be going hungry...
Live life to the fullest.
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 2):
I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

I never said I did know what Im talking about, and comments from members like you really p*ss me off... When you make jumped up comments to other members and there is many other ways to make constructive feed back.

I however think my comments in the original post are valid. The fuel for the aircraft will be ordered about 2-3hrs before the flight and they could have under estimated the amount of fuel required as there could have been a number of passengers with excess baggage and there could have been a number of passengers that were on standby or booked at the last minute accounting for the additional weight.

Also LCC in the UK will only carry the exact amount of fuel for the required journey and don't want to be carrying the additional weight of fuel that is not essentiall for that journey. They would rather refuel everytime the aircraft does a turn around as opposed to be refuel once or twice in the day.
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:17 am

Avek00,

No, a new age of in flight cannibalism is about to dawn.

Antares
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:21 am

They had probably a high load of very profitable cargo in the hold. Easy is very good on cargo.

KL911
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
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RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweigh

Sun May 29, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 4):
Wait until the A380 enters service - methinks alot of folks on SIN-LHR and LAX-SYD will be going hungry...

Yeah, that ugly whale is so heavy that they have to fly with only 37 pax.  fight 

Do you really want to switch such a thread into B vs. A?  banghead 

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
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RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
Also LCC in the UK will only carry the exact amount of fuel for the required journey and don't want to be carrying the additional weight of fuel that is not essentiall for that journey.

Sucks for them if they have to hold, or divert, for some unforeseen reason.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 2):
How would you like to be the passenger that was booted to make room for drinks?

I was denied boarding on an SAAB340 MIA-EYW because my connection was late and even though my seat was available and the door was open, they had already packed it decided my 6'2" frame was going to be too much. This was AEagle.

They put me on a competing airline since they were all the final flights of the night (USAirways Express was the carrier), and AA gave me a small travel voucher, and all was fine. (this was before I stopped flying AA). Due to the inconvenience and the fact my luggage would arrive the next day, USAirways also gave me an overnight kit with a nice leatherette zipper pouch that I still use today!

Had I known they could have taken off the soda cans and let me fly, I likely still would have gone on the other plane for the voucher and the overnight kit.  Smile Either way, my luggage would have been delayed.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 8:40 am

Quote:
I never said I did know what Im talking about, and comments from members like you really p*ss me off... When you make jumped up comments to other members and there is many other ways to make constructive feed back.

Yeah? Armchair QBs who question the actions of a pilot really piss me off, so I guess we're even.

Quote:
I however think my comments in the original post are valid. The fuel for the aircraft will be ordered about 2-3hrs before the flight and they could have under estimated the amount of fuel required as there could have been a number of passengers with excess baggage and there could have been a number of passengers that were on standby or booked at the last minute accounting for the additional weight.

Yes, it's a possibility that it was miscalculated fuel, however it's not the only possibility, nor the most common one for weight issues.

Quote:
Also LCC in the UK will only carry the exact amount of fuel for the required journey and don't want to be carrying the additional weight of fuel that is not essentiall for that journey. They would rather refuel everytime the aircraft does a turn around as opposed to be refuel once or twice in the day.

Most airlines do this, though they will also figure in the cost of fuel at each airport the airplane will visit and may tanker extra fuel to avoid high costs in some locations.

Quote:
Sucks for them if they have to hold, or divert, for some unforeseen reason.

The amount of fuel required for a trip allocates a certain amount for holding and diverting. The specific amount depends on location of suitable diversion airports and the weather conditions.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Bluebellya380
Posts: 170
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:51 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 8:48 am

I'm certainly glad that this is not happening on the TG BKK-JFK non-stop that i'm about to return home on!!!  Wow!
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I think the actual reason is the pilot had miscalculated the amount of fuel required for the flight in relation to the weight of the payload and not had time to order additional fuel.



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
The fuel for the aircraft will be ordered about 2-3hrs before the flight and they could have under estimated the amount of fuel required as there could have been a number of passengers with excess baggage and there could have been..

Sounds like EasyJet could use licensed aircraft dispatchers...
Ask why..
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):

Haha, thanks for the funny story. Weird indeed   
Maybe the passengers simply were carrying too much baggage with them (more than ground staff had initially anticipated). Better offload the food and magazines though, than to offload pax.

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 2):
I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I never said I did know what Im talking about, and comments from members like you really p*ss me off... When you make jumped up comments to other members and there is many other ways to make constructive feed back.

Ignore him! By reacting you are only doing exactly what he want's to achieve... pissing you off.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 4):
Wait until the A380 enters service - methinks alot of folks on SIN-LHR and LAX-SYD will be going hungry...

Well... think again! Jesus, some people always have to start about this again. Getting really annoying.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
It isn't uncommon to remove pax, luggage, freight on some flights do to needed fuel loads combined with high altitude ops (MEX, DEN for example) or very hot weather (PHX in the summer for example). I have never heard of offloading the food/beverage services to reduce MTOW.

True! But I don't think it played a factor in this particular example. Luton is neither high up, nor hot   And I would have thought that LEMD is within a reasonable range for it not to be necessary to offload stuff from the 737-700. Hmmm....

[Edited 2005-05-29 02:29:30]

[Edited 2005-05-29 02:30:35]
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 11):
The amount of fuel required for a trip allocates a certain amount for holding and diverting. The specific amount depends on location of suitable diversion airports and the weather conditions.

The term 'exact amount required' means that which is required by the regulations. In the US, for you and I, that would equate to trip, alternate (if required,) reserve (mandatory,) or holding if deemed necessary. Notice that I said 'unforeseen' in my post for both holding and diversion. Therefore, the 'exact amount required' that they would put on, as originally stated by Gilesdavies, would be burn and reserve. Now, would you like to takeoff to a somewhere that is 10 and clear, with no holding, or contingiency, only to get a reroute that will take you 100 miles off course?
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Boogyjay
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweigh

Sun May 29, 2005 9:35 am

Quote:

How long before this "guesstimate" is replaced by actual weight - with prospective travellers obliged to stand on scales before a final fare is settled?

That would be more fair. In this world, profit is the leading objective (Sad but true). For the companies, that means cut costs where you can. For the constumers, that means you have what you pay for i.e. in a restaurant, if you eat more, you cost more, hence you pay more. That should be the same in the aviation industry: "You fly F class, you pay more; you cost more by being heavy, you pay more", simple as that. I would totally agree paying more for my 1m89-tall 85kgs-heavy body if somebody else can save money (the company, other pax, or both).

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
comments from members like you really p*ss me off... When you make jumped up comments to other members and there is many other ways to make constructive feed back.



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 11):
Yeah? Armchair QBs who question the actions of a pilot really piss me off, so I guess we're even.

Hey! Make LOVE  hearts , not war  box .
Just watch what you write and try to be the reader of your post...
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 6):
a new age of in flight cannibalism is about to dawn.

Does eating a stewardess count as cannibalism if I neither bit nor swallowed?  tongue 
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 9:50 am

Quote:
How long before this "guesstimate" is replaced by actual weight - with prospective travellers obliged to stand on scales before a final fare is settled?

It'll be very very long, in fact that will never change. When I worked at the check-in desk in the good old days I was surprised when I was getting my training and was told that we do in fact use guesstimates for pax. If a male was standing in front of me I hit the M button, for females the F button, and for children the C button. These buttons accounted for 80, 60, and 20 kg respectively. Infants were considered to weigh 0 kg. But seriously, when you see the discrepancies in airlines between actual and inputted weights of luggage, the weight of passengers will be the lesser concern! LOL Big grin

By the way: Imagine the look on the ladies' faces when asked to stand on the scale for "weight & balance" reasons of the aircraft! I can picture lots of slapping going on.  bigthumbsup 
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9020
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 18):
By the way: Imagine the look on the ladies' faces when asked to stand on the scale for "weight & balance" reasons of the aircraft! I can picture lots of slapping going on.   

That one is easy to solve - just have the weight display cut 20 pounds off the actual, while recording actual weight. A great way to generate customer loyalty!
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
That one is easy to solve - just have the weight display cut 20 pounds off the actual, while recording actual weight. A great way to generate customer loyalty!

Hahaha, they'll be flying with you a lot more often then Big grin
Right I'm off to bed... gnite  zzz 
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
Boogyjay
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 18):
By the way: Imagine the look on the ladies' faces when asked to stand on the scale for "weight & balance" reasons of the aircraft! I can picture lots of slapping going on.

Couldn't it be done in an anonymous, all automatic, manner? e.g. the tare doesn't display the weight, it adds automatically the measurements, and you insert your credit card to pay for your weight Big grin

I mean, weight is one of the biggest issue in aviation. When you hear about airlines:
- counting the number of children to put less fuel,
- calculating that carrying 1 more ton of fuel than required will save $100 for the return leg (e.g. if fuel is more expensive at your destination),
- taxiing on one engine to save a few bucks,
- and the list goes on and on...
Then you think weighting people before boarding is not such a big deal.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 1:45 pm

Would be interesting to see how they calculated the DOW of the aircraft then.


Put the staff on a scale and reduce the weight.

WEIRD
 
Boeing733
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:11 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 7:49 pm

I think what has happened here is that a Block fuel figure has been calculated on an estimated zero fuel weight (EZFW), upto an hour prior to departure. Check-in closed 30 mins prior to departure (or in that region) and an actual zero fuel weight (ZFW) was calculated. Obviously, due to the high loads of passengers, luggage, cargo, etc, the ZFW was a hell of a lot more than the EZFW, by which time the aircraft would have had the fuel loaded.

It is an extremely difficult and lengthy process to de-fuel an aircraft, so rather than delay the flight to do this or offload a fare-paying passenger, the Captain decided to leave the galley behind. Top marks to the Captain for coming up with that idea.

With reference to easyJet using licensed dispatchers, they are already well into a thorough training course using Glasgow College of Nautical Studies to train their staff for the JAA Flight Dispatcher's license. As a former dispatcher myself, they had already introduced company licenses for agents which qualified them at different levels for both dispatch and mass and balance.

Saucer of milk, table 2 please for those above .....
They Say That Life's A Carousel, Spinning Fast, You've Got To Ride It Well
 
PapaNovember
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:07 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting Boeing733 (Reply 23):
It is an extremely difficult and lengthy process to de-fuel an aircraft

That's what I thought the problem was. They (whomever "they" is) ordered too much fuel, huh?
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Sun May 29, 2005 11:33 pm

This is funny ...

because I am weight and balanced qualified in my company and the catering equipment and water are part of the zero fuel weight. Maybe it's a cultural thing!?

Plus, I can't imagine that the weight of the catering equipment would have been that substantial to warrant its offloading! On the other hand, I handle wide body aircraft where a small weight like 500kg is relatively unsubstantial to the overall weights.
Bonjour Chef!
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:14 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Mon May 30, 2005 12:44 am

This situation happened at SCE once with a F-27 (United flight to DUL). They mistakenly took on too much fuel, and the choice was to ask for volunteers (of which no one did), so the took magazines and what little freight there was off the plane, then took the plane to a far spot on the apron and ran the engines for about a half hour.
 
Boeing733
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:11 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Mon May 30, 2005 1:12 am

The galley etc forms part of the Dry Operating Weight, which, added to the Total Traffic Load (the weight of all the passengers, their bags + any freight) gives the ZFW. I suppose that although the galley etc only weighs about 500kgs or so, it must have been a very minor weight problem.

On a side note, as a former dispatcher, I fondly recall the days when I used to dispatch Aer Lingus BAe 146 flights to Dublin. On certain days when many USA citizens would be traveling with onward connecting flights to the States, the weight was very critical due to the large weights of luggage involved. I remember on numerous occasions we had to offload up to 70 bags or more of the aircraft so it would be within it's MTOW (Maximum Take-Off Weight). Fairplay to the easyJet Captain who decided that he could go without his cup of coffee for the sake of his passengers convenience.
They Say That Life's A Carousel, Spinning Fast, You've Got To Ride It Well
 
mav75
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2000 10:02 am

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Mon May 30, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I however think my comments in the original post are valid. The fuel for the aircraft will be ordered about 2-3hrs before the flight and they could have under estimated the amount of fuel required as there could have been a number of passengers with excess baggage and there could have been a number of passengers that were on standby or booked at the last minute accounting for the additional weight.

My guess is that the crew (or dispatcher if easyjet has them) OVERestimated the amount of fuel needed for the trip, which would have been further complicated by any additional last minute pax. Also, the article didn't specifically mention that the maximum takeoff weight had been exceeded. My guess is that on a two hour flight, it would have been a landing weight issue.

The 7000 foot runway length might have played into a takeoff weight issue, but I would tend to doubt it since in the US, 737's and heavier aircraft routinely fly transcontinental routes full.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Sorry No Food/Drink As The Aircrafts Overweight!

Mon May 30, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Mav75 (Reply 28):
My guess is that the crew (or dispatcher if easyjet has them) OVERestimated the amount of fuel needed for the trip

Better to be safe than sorry.  Smile
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.