Birdwatching
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German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 10:56 pm

I've got a question about using the German Rail&Fly service.
Maybe some of our German members can help with this one!

Some fares from / to Germany offer a so called Rail&Fly service, which allows you to take any train to the airport on the day of your travel (+/- 1). Normally, when you are issued paper tickets for your itinerary, the two Rail&Fly portions will be included in your ticket booklet as a seperate ticket each, which the conductor on the train will stamp.

I have recently bought a Flight from FRA to MEX and return, on AA. The offer includes Rail&Fly.

This is on ETIX, however, so all I have is a printout from the travel agency. They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Isn't this a potential source for fraud, allowing people to print a fake itinerary on their home computer in order to ride the train for free? How do they check it on the train? Do they call the airline? (I don't think so!)
Will I be in trouble in the train because I only have the etix print out? Should I request a paper ticket from my travel agency?

Here's how my itinerary looks like in the printout:

02.08.2005 RAILWAY GERMANY - FRANKFURT 2A OPEN Y
02.08.2005 FRANKFURT - DALLAS AA 71 M
and so on.
(with another RAILWAY line in the end)
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
This is on ETIX, however, so all I have is a printout from the travel agency. They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Definitely no Etix/PAF/TOD possible with Rail&Fly! And the conductor needs an original "flight coupon".

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
Isn't this a potential source for fraud, allowing people to print a fake itinerary on their home computer in order to ride the train for free? How do they check it on the train? Do they call the airline? (I don't think so!)
Will I be in trouble in the train because I only have the etix print out? Should I request a paper ticket from my travel agency?

German conductors have on board units but the DB system is not same as CRS's from airlines, so conductors can't check the Record Locators, etc. Also there are only 3 German airports with ETIX machines, which are Frankfurt Airport long distance station, cologne main station, stuttgart main station.

2A system is very simple: paper ticket, just enter train without luggage restrictions, deboard train at the airport and fly.
And yes, you will get trouble in the trains with itinerary only. Conductor may ring up DB product management and ask what to do. They will (of course) reply : charge him, we don't get money from AA without flight coupon.

[Edited 2005-05-29 16:08:00]
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:15 pm

I'll just confirm what NumberTwelve said: issuing Rail & Fly tickets on electronic tickets is, currently, technically impossible.

If you have an ETIX, you do not have Rail & Fly.

There is one, and only one, exception, and that's (again, as NumberTwelve has mentioned) if you've got LH flight numbers operated by 2A on routes like STR-FRA (actually ZWS-FRA), CGN-FRA (QKL-FRA) or DUS-FRA (QDU-FRA) - although I'm not absolutely sure about DUS...

But if you've got an AA eTicket, then - with 100% certainty - I can tell you that you do not have Rail & Fly on your ticket. The agency might have booked it, but in no way was the ticket issued including Rail & Fly.

And, yes, I can be 100% certain about that, because this is one of the things I deal with dozens of times during every single working day.

Trust me - and NumberTwelve - the conductor will absolutely not accept the itinerary printout.

Regards,
Frank
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:18 pm

Just to add to that... there is, of course, the option of getting a separate ticket for Rail & Fly (not possible through DB, but through certain ticket issuing companies) - those certainly can also be used in connection with an electronic ticket; but without a paper ticket at least for the Rail & Fly part, you'll be using the train without a ticket.

Regards,
Frank
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 2):
There is one, and only one, exception, and that's (again, as NumberTwelve has mentioned) if you've got LH flight numbers operated by 2A on routes like STR-FRA (actually ZWS-FRA), CGN-FRA (QKL-FRA) or DUS-FRA (QDU-FRA) - although I'm not absolutely sure about DUS...

LH's STR FRA // CGN FRA offers are no Rail&Fly. It's AIRail.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
Just to add to that... there is, of course, the option of getting a separate ticket for Rail & Fly (not possible through DB, but through certain ticket issuing companies) - those certainly can also be used in connection with an electronic ticket; but without a paper ticket at least for the Rail & Fly part, you'll be using the train without a ticket.

Rail&Fly is Airline-only offer, nothing to do with Deutsche Bahn, so it's important what Leskova said: airline has to issue the Rail&Fly voucher. Contact AA in Neu Isenburg and they can issue Rail&Fly voucher free of charge, just writing a "conjunction remark" in the conjunction field. AA is paying whole DB fare, so they of course want to know for what they pay (feeder for your MEX flights).
You also can buy the train ticket or get a Fahrpreisnacherhebung of Deutsche Bahn and contact AA in Neu Isenburg IMMEDIATELY. They can contact Deutsche Bahn for not charging. But this is -in my opinion- worst possibility.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
They told me that there's no problem with that, the conductor will stamp the printed page.

Tell your travel agent many greetings from #12, he/she is totally uninformed. They give wrong information , customer is travelling and at the end the "bad" carrier is guilty. For what do (some) airlines and tour operators still pay comission? For desinformation? Sorry, had to say/write that.

Leskova, are you airliner - or travel agent? Maybe we know each other...

[Edited 2005-05-29 16:32:34]
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:33 pm

Actually, what I'd do is go back to whomever sold you the ticket (including Rail & Fly) and ask them to clarify - and let them confirm to you, in writing, that Rail & Fly is included in your ticket and that they'll pay the cost should you get into trouble on the train... perhaps they'll reconsider at that point.

I know that the AA fares that the company I work for offers always include Rail & Fly (if the transatlantic flight begins in FRA), but - again - only when issued as paper ticket and including coupons for the R&F segments.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 4):
LH's STR FRA // CGN FRA offers are no Rail&Fly. It's AIRail.

You are, of course, correct - it is AIRail.

Regards,
Frank
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
and let them confirm to you, in writing, that Rail & Fly is included in your ticket and that they'll pay the cost should you get into trouble on the train... perhaps they'll reconsider at that point.

I also guess, Leskova, that the info the travel agency gave to Birdwatching, was just said totally without brain. It's not just adding a stamp and write "Rail&Fly included". But travel agent will think about the (possible) problem he/she will get.

Adding an itenerary to a flight ticket - interesting, maybe travel agent next time says, that customer just has to show a postcard from the destination he was. Very interesting "ticket".
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Birdwatching
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:47 pm

OK, guys, I am SO dumb. I just scanned my itinerary, to post it here, and then I wanted to mark the word ETIX in Photo Impact, and I couldn't find it! Then I want to put the itinerary back into the pouch, and there are my paper tickets!

I guess I'm so used to fly on etix now that I thought this was an etix too. Turns out it isn't, maybe for exactly that reason.

But thanks for your interesting input!

And excuse me for wasting your time!  Smile

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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:52 pm

Aaaaaaaaaah, STA travel, what do you expect from them. llllollll
sorry, Leskova, stupid comment.  Wink

And no problem, Birdwatching, we had great time, talking bad about travel agents and talking about Rail&Fly which is definitely great alternative for flight feeder within Germany (other countries dont have it unfortunatelly), its very unique German product.
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Sun May 29, 2005 11:57 pm

Say... directly under the word "FLIGHT COUPON" - does it say *CJ/A... there? If yes, then the guy who issued the ticket sits directly behind me at work (yes, I work at STA and even though the ticket came out of the printer at the office where you were, the issuing was done from here in Frankfurt)...  Wink

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
Aaaaaaaaaah, STA travel, what do you expect from them. llllollll
sorry, Leskova, stupid comment.

You are forgiven...  Wink
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Birdwatching
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
(other countries dont have it unfortunatelly)

Isn't there a similar system on Amtrak Northeast Corridor, on flights out of Washington, New York or Boston? I remember once looking at an Icelandair itinerary that Orbitz gave me, which went New York Grand Central - Boston on train and then on plane.
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Birdwatching
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 10):
Say... directly under the word "FLIGHT COUPON" - does it say *CJ/A... there?

Well, it says CJ / AJJ! Does that mean you issued that ticket to me... Here in Freiburg?

Want to come over, auf ein Kühles Bier?

(I hope Johann allows me this much non-english writing in his forum!)
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mrniji
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:10 am

Birdwatching et al.

thanks for the laugh! Hillarious, especially when you said that you are used to flying on etix so often that you did not realize this tb a paperticket  bigthumbsup  ! - Have a wonderful flight, and an even better Rail journey  Wink
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LJ
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 9):
which is definitely great alternative for flight feeder within Germany (other countries dont have it unfortunatelly), its very unique German product.

Although KLM abolished this a couple of years for pax withing The Netherlands (too expensive) it does still exist for feeder traffic between AMS and Antwerp and Rotterdam. Moreover in a couple years time (probably 2007) the same will apply for pax originating in Dusseldorf and Brussels. In addition, there are a few individual airlines doing someting equal. However, the problem is that in this isn't as wellknown as the German Rail&Fly.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
especially when you said that you are used to flying on etix so often that you did not realize this tb a paperticket

Yeah, I just realized, whithout this thread I would have gone to the airport without the tickets... maybe I would have convinced the conductor on the train, OK, but then at check-in!
Birdwatching no va a Mexico!  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 11):
Isn't there a similar system on Amtrak Northeast Corridor

You can't compare, Birdwatching. Rail&Fly http://www.bahn.de/bahnflug (english version: http://www.bahn.de/trainflight is unique all over the world. No routes are published, ticket only shows "Railway Germany" for every railway station within Germany. No difference if 30 km to the airport or 600 km - it's a flat fare where the airlines (mostly) pay a part or the whole costs for the train ride.
Amtrak, French Railway, Swedish Rail, Norwegian Rail, Swiss Railway always have a special route and it has to be defined before, travel agents and customers need sort of geographical knowledge. But not for Rail&Fly. Very simple wording: a ticket from your house door to the airport.

In my opinion it's not compareable with other train feeder. Ok, there is a "Rail&Fly Amsterdam" which is for departures from Amsterdam, but DB is involved in this product too (only from German railway stations).
In Germany we are always critizising the German railway system - not flexible, not in time, etc. But "not flexible" is definitely a joke. Only in the Ostfriesland Islands you can get a plane with train tickets - never saw it on other flights. DB is practicing it: flight coupon for train ride.

LJ: "Although KLM abolished this a couple of years for pax withing The Netherlands (too expensive) it does still exist for feeder traffic between AMS and Antwerp and Rotterdam. "
Also here the destinations are defined in advance - but this isn't with Rail&Fly. You can use any of the 6000 railway stations in Germany.

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:22:38]
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Moreover in a couple years time (probably 2007) the same will apply for pax originating in Dusseldorf

Please tell me that's not true. I'm a very loyal KL customer and love them to death, but if they stick me on a train...I'll be p*ssed off.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
Please tell me that's not true. I'm a very loyal KL customer and love them to death, but if they stick me on a train...I'll be p*ssed off.

Calm down, DC8 , it's definitely stupid to have a domestic flight within the Netherlands - and also in airlines' crs's there is an info that transportation is with Dutch Railway( as it is with codeshare connections).

Have a look onto the map and compare your country to Germany and Netherlands. Düsseldorf is close to Dutch boarder.

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:25:14]

[Edited 2005-05-29 17:25:57]
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:30 am

Number 12, I've lived in Germany for the last several years, and I still fly to DUS at least twice a year, almost all the time through AMS with KL. I understand the economics behind it since where I lived I could have driven my car to AMS and been there quicker then if I flew from DUS. But, what can I say, I like to fly.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:38 am

ACDC8, and you still have the choice to fly. The CRS's make you more informed, they inform you about the railroad trip. You have possibility to select.
And at the moment Amsterdam Schiphol has no direct trains to Germany, that means, Codeshare isn't possible yet.
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 20):
And at the moment Amsterdam Schiphol has no direct trains to Germany, that means, Codeshare isn't possible yet.

I know this. As LJ said in his post, it could be possible as of 2007.
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ahlfors
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:03 am

So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 22):
So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

Hi, Ahlfors, you mean, if the airport doesn't have an own train station or what, if your station has no direct link to the airport?

If the airport hasn't direct train station (which is very seldom in Germany), DB has contract with bus shuttle or tram shuttle services. These (bus/tram) shuttles are included in Rail&Fly.
If your hometown station has no direct link to the airport and you have to change the train, you can change the train. The 1st conductor lifts the Railway Germany coupon and makes a stamp on the passenger receipt. The conductor from 2nd and/or 3rd train (depends how often you have to change trains) can see the stamp and knows that the coupon has been lifted , means: the customer is allowed to travel. Very simple system.
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 22):
So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

Here's an example I've used a few times.
I would take a bus from Rhede to Bocholt, switch to the train going to Wesel, then switch trains again which takes you to DUS. You just show the bus driver or train conductor your ticket, and you're set.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:21 am

ACDC8, you are not allowed to travel in local trains within one "Verkehrsverbund" (transport and tariff association), but very difficult to explain.
When you go to the DB homepage, check schedule and system says "no fares published", Rail&Fly isn't possible because of verkehrsverbund.
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 25):
ACDC8, you are not allowed to travel in local trains within one "Verkehrsverbund" (transport and tariff association), but very difficult to explain.

Ahlfors asked a simple question, I gave him a simple example. Do you have a problem with that? I am very well aware of the rules and policies regarding DB's Rail&Fly. And I hate to inform you, West Muensterland is NOT in the same VRR as DUS.

Just for clarification: VRR = Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr

[Edited 2005-05-29 18:33:21]
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 26):
I gave him a simple example. Do you have a problem with that?

lol, wow, DC8 - as I wrote before: calm down  
And as I wrote: you can see it on DB homepage - published price means: Rail&Fly is allowed, no published price: Rail&Fly is not allowed. Bocholt - Düsseldorf is allowed, but not the bus to Bocholt.

[Edited 2005-05-29 18:42:03]
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 12):
Well, it says CJ / AJJ! Does that mean you issued that ticket to me... Here in Freiburg?

Well, my colleague did, the one who's initials are CJ - if it said FL on your ticket, then it would have been me. But, yes, what happens is the office in Freiburg sends the booking to us here in Frankfurt via the CRS, we get a notification that Freiburg wants a ticket issued: we then log onto their CRS system and connect to their printer, open the booking and issue the ticket, which then gets printed by the printer in Freiburg (just as it would happen in any of the other offices in Germany - with a few exceptions).

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 16):
Ok, there is a "Rail&Fly Amsterdam" which is for departures from Amsterdam, but DB is involved in this product too (only from German railway stations).

And there also used to be a Rail & Fly Zürich, but - unfortunately - the Swiss railroad didn't want that continued, so it was axed a couple of years back.

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 22):
So how does this work if the station has no direct service to the airport? Can you take several trains if needed to get to the airport?

Yes, you simply connect as often as necessary - you can even make intermediate stops, after all, the ticket is valid for 24 hours before your flight begins - for example, someone living in Hamburg but flying from Frankfurt could simply take an ICE to Hannover, stay there for a couple of hours, take a train to Kassel, stay another few hours, and then continue with yet another train to Frankfurt - as long as you're constantly heading towards the airport from where you're flying, you're ok.

Regards,
Frank
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 27):
And as I wrote: you can see it on DB homepage - published price means: Rail&Fly is allowed, no published price: Rail&Fly is not allowed. Bocholt - Düsseldorf is allowed, but not the bus to Bocholt.

The bus to Bocholt is not operated by DB, so you might not see it on their homepage. But the nice thing about Germany, is that a lot of the transportation systems work together, as in this case where the WB Westfalenbus GmbH honors the Rail&Fly ticket which enables seamless and free travel from where I lived to the airport and back again. Just as I stated in my example. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ahlfors asked a question, I gave him an example, one I have used several times out of my own experience. Is there a point to your contradicting me?
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
The bus to Bocholt is not operated by DB, so you might not see it on their homepage.

The DB homepage also shows the (non DB) bus, so that isn't the problem.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
But the nice thing about Germany, is that a lot of the transportation systems work together

And this co operation is called "Verkehrsverbund". But definitely the bus driver did a mistake to accept the bus (not due to the Verkehrsverbund but because of the non DB service). Maybe the driver didnt make difference between the Rail&Fly and the Verkehrsverbund.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
Is there a point to your contradicting me?

Sorry, I just said some facts about Rail&Fly , Verkehrsverbund, etc.

As I mentioned: on DB trains only (and shuttle to airport if no railway station) and not within one Verkehrsverbund.
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ACDC8
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 30):
And this co operation is called "Verkehrsverbund". But definitely the bus driver did a mistake to accept the bus (not due to the Verkehrsverbund but because of the non DB service). Maybe the driver didnt make difference between the Rail&Fly and the Verkehrsverbund.

Here's the cool thing. Different Verkehrsverbunds connect with one another! As you mentioned, you can not use the Rail&Fly in the same Verkehrsverbund, which in the case of DUS is the VRR. Fortunatly, where I lived, we had a different Verkehrsverbund, thus allowing the use of the ticket between Rhede and Bocholt on the bus (since there is no train service), which is in the Westmuensterland Verkehrsverbund and then taking the train to Wesel which is in the Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr.
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Leskova
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 30):
As I mentioned: on DB trains only (and shuttle to airport if no railway station) and not within one Verkehrsverbund.

Incidentally, that's not quite correct: there are some "Verkehrsverbünde" that do, in fact, accept Rail & Fly tickets, namely...

Verkehrsverbund Berlin-Brandenburg (VBB, only in areas A, B, und C)
Hamburger Verkehrsverbund (HVV) including Airport-Express Jasper
Verkehrsverbund Bremen/Niedersachsen (VBN)
Großraumverkehr Hannover (GVH)
Verkehrsgemeinschaft Münsterland/ Ruhr-Lippe (VGM/VRL)
Verkehrsverbund Rhein/ Ruhr (VRR)
Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Sieg (VRS)
Rhein-Main Verkehrsverbund (RMV)
Verkehrs- und Tarifverbund Stuttgart (VVS)
Verkehrsverbund Großraum Nürnberg (VGN)
Münchener Verkehrs- und Tarifverbund (MVV)
Verkehrsverbund Oberelbe (VVO)

If I, living withing the RMV, were to have a plane ticket including R&F, I could use the S-Bahn to the airport here in Frankfurt... aside from the fact that it'd be unnecessary, because my regular RMV season ticket already covers that route...  Wink

Nonetheless - there are areas where the use of a R&F-ticket is possible on busses/trains/trams/whatever of the local Verkehrsverbund.

Regards,
Frank
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NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 32):
Incidentally, that's not quite correct: there are some "Verkehrsverbünde" that do, in fact, accept Rail & Fly tickets, namely...

Frank, they accept Rail&Fly in S-Bahn when there is also another long distance train part (ein/ausbrechender verkehr). When you talk about tour operators who offer train feeder within a Verkehrsverbund in local trains it isn't called Rail&Fly , it is called "Fahren und Fliegen" from VDV.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 32):
Nonetheless - there are areas where the use of a R&F-ticket is possible on busses/trains/trams/whatever of the local Verkehrsverbund.

Not on Rail&Fly from Airlines/Tour Operators and DB but on "Fahren und Fliegen" from Tour Operators and Verkehrsverbund cooperations.
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airsicknessbag
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:34 am

But in practice, you could always use R&F even within a local Verkehrsverbund (on DB) - because it's impossible to prove you did not start your journey 500 kms away. Plus, DB gets a rather high flat fee for each R&F coupon they cash in with the respective tour operator or airline (30 EUR?) - they'd be stupid not to accept that coupon from you.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 23):
If the airport hasn't direct train station (which is very seldom in Germany),

Do you mean to say it's rare that an airport does not have a train station, or the contrary?
If the former, I'm afraid still most airports don't have direct rail links. And many of those that have are just served by S or local trains and hence are not better off than with a tram or bus line. That includes majors such as MUC, STR, HAJ as well as FDH.

Anyway, here's the short list of airport train stations:

FRA
MUC
DUS
CGN
STR
HAJ
SXF
LEJ
FDH

No HAM, BRE, TXL, THF, HHN, FMO, DTM, NUE, DRS, and I didn't even start mentioning the lesser ones...

Daniel Smile
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 34):
But in practice, you could always use R&F even within a local Verkehrsverbund (on DB) - because it's impossible to prove you did not start your journey 500 kms away....they'd be stupid not to accept that coupon from you.

the Verkehrsverbünde rent the DB trains , so they are angry, not DB. DB could be happy but its against contract between the Verbünde and DB and companies should accept contracts, DB btw. does. When you use a suburb train from Darmstadt to Frankfurt to change to S-Bahn then, you get in trouble when conductor checks tickets. Not all get "caught" but thats the same with traffic lights, if nobody doesnt realise you are crossing, when red, you dont have trouble. But I am talking if it's allowed or not.

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 34):
respective tour operator or airline (30 EUR?)

Where do you get the price from, Airsicknessbag? It's a re-seller price, a negotiation between airlines/tour operators and DB. What airlines/tour operators are doing, how much they are selling, is the point of the airlines, not of DB. Also what is 30 Euro? Frankfurt-Cologne already is 46 Euro - so what is "high flat fare"? Customers can travel hundreds of km's.

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 34):
Do you mean to say it's rare that an airport does not have a train station, or the contrary?
If the former, I'm afraid still most airports don't have direct rail links

Most of the important German airports has own train connection - only Hamburg has none (until 2007). Frankfurt has 2. HHN is not interesting. Shuttle services are offered in Rail&Fly for most of the non railway airports.

Public transport to airports in Germany is excellent, and most of important German airports (ok, all important except HAM) have own railway station. Am not talking about long distance links, just about railway stations. And FRA as biggest and most important German airport has heaps of direct trains, also long distance trains from SXF, CGN and DUS too.

[Edited 2005-05-29 19:51:14]
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airsicknessbag
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 34):
they cash in with the respective tour operator or airline (30 EUR?)



Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 35):
Where do you get the price from, Airsicknessbag?

Asked a conductor - went from Mannheim to FRA, which normally costs 10 EUR. I was like "so great business for you, TUI makes you a gift of 20 EUR", he just grinned smugly.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 35):
the Verkehrsverbünde rent the DB trains , so they are angry, not DB.

But the local trains are of course manned with DB staff, who are loyal enough to their employer to just bag the coupon. And the rent-a-conductor types on the S-Bahnen are too stupid to understand the intricate workings of the different tix anyway.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 35):
Also what is 30 Euro? Frankfurt-Cologne already is 46 Euro

Well ya, there might be a couple of customers doing Cologne -> FRA - which costs 25 EUR with BahnCard, i.e. still a profit for DB. But the grossly inflated price of that route is unique for the DB system. Normally, 30 EUR gets you from Hamburg to DUS, which is four hours travel time. I'm pretty certain most travellers cover well under that distance.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 35):
Customers can travel hundreds of km's.

With the proliferance of regional airports, they don't any more. In my experience, routes like Mannheim (perhaps Karlsruhe) to FRA or Dortmund to DUS or CGN, all between 9 and 15 EUR are the norm.

Daniel Smile
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:15 am

Airsicknessbag, sorry, I can't / am not allowed to go into details.
But you can imagine that a conductor has no clue of the Rail&Fly prices which are negotiated between DB and tour operators/airlines and DB.

The loyal DB staff has the order not to accept the tickets, if they still accept, they get problems because of contract reasons.
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LJ
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 20):
And at the moment Amsterdam Schiphol has no direct trains to Germany, that means, Codeshare isn't possible yet.

This is going to be changed next year (or 2007 depending on contruction works) when the ICE International from Frankfurt hasn't Amsterdam Central Station as final destination but Schiphol Airport.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
Please tell me that's not true. I'm a very loyal KL customer and love them to death, but if they stick me on a train...I'll be p*ssed off.

KLM is very mystorious about this issue. They [KLM] have played with the idea to reduce or stop all services to DUS but to fly in their premium pax with a business jet to AMS and their lower tier pax may go by train. Another idea is to have limited service to AMS and hope many will take the train. It's not clear which approach they'll take but when the ICE runs directly from Dusseldorf Hauptbahnhof to Schiphol I'm certain something will change (just look at what happened with Antwerp).

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 16):
Also here the destinations are defined in advance - but this isn't with Rail&Fly. You can use any of the 6000 railway stations in Germany.

I know but at least MP offers the same for pax from Luxemburg/Belgium to AMS (although they have to pay a small fee). China Airlines has, as far as I know, also a deal for Belgians who travel via AMS.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
know but at least MP offers the same for pax from Luxemburg/Belgium to AMS (although they have to pay a small fee). China Airlines has, as far as I know, also a deal for Belgians who travel via AMS.

Never heared about it - i know that MP and CI have Rail&Fly Amsterdam ex Germany. I have heared that German Rail wants to make agreement with Belgian Railway company but the Belgians are still a little shy.
Also have heared that the Dutch conductors are not used to accept the Rail&Fly voucher, so I wonder, when this already exists ex Belgium and Luxembourg.
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LJ
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 39):
Also have heared that the Dutch conductors are not used to accept the Rail&Fly voucher, so I wonder, when this already exists ex Belgium and Luxembourg.

This I can understand. When KLM had Rail&Fly (every KLM ticket was automatically a free trainticket from any railway station to Schiphol Airport provided a certain code was inserted in the ticket) many people ran into trouble as the ticket inspectors couldn't believe it. Needless to say it was KLM where they complained not the Dutch railways.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: German Rail&Fly On ETIX: Fraud Possible?

Mon May 30, 2005 3:51 am

lol@LJ. Bad info management at NS.

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 36):
With the proliferance of regional airports, they don't any more.

They dont do any more when they fly with tour operators who offer flights from 15+ airports. But no QF, no QR, no SQ/SA/RG/MH/CI/CA/EK ... from HHN.
These airlines have 1 up to 3 German destionations. The less destinations the more average distance.
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