LipeGIG
Topic Author
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GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 1:43 am

After some domestic flights were relocated from SDU, GIG Rio de Janeiro Int'l is growing very quickly and some airlines are doing very good yields (as well as profits in their GIG operations). In the first days of this month, JJ increase its domestic flights to/from GIG strongly in more than 60% after the end of code share with RG.
Delta will start GIG-ATL in October 2nd (Oct 1 will be the start of ATL-GIG flight). Iberia will increase its operations from 4x to Daily in November 1st. American announced they will operate 3x week the AA980 seasonal GIG-MIA (they request to DOT 2 frequencies to increase it to 5x again and due to the fact that UA probably wont have aircraft available to operate the second GRU-IAD, it seems that American soonest will be operating a second GIG-MIA daily). RG also increased GIG-LIS flights, announced a GIG-MIA dailylight flight during July (which can be increased to Daily) and will upgrade during July the GIG-FRA for a 777-200ER (nowadays uses MD11) due to unexpected demand. RG is also showing in their schedule the RG8770 (GIG-GRU-MUC) operated with the M11 (probably when start this flight the GIG-FRA will be upgraded definitively). Talking yesterday with an Alitalia cmdt during a CGH-SDU flight he talked that Alitalia is also thinking in return to GIG 3 or 4 times per week as well as American is talking with Tam to increase GIG-CNF flights in order that some DFW flights be run to GIG after GRU.
Domestic operations in GIG are doing very good with higher loads than GRU and BSB and nowadays GIG is 92% of all GRU domestic pax, showing an important connections hub GIG can be. GIG-CGH/GRU with more than 20 daily flights, GIG-BSB with 16 flights per day, GIG-CNF with 12, GIG-VIX with 8, GIG-SSA with 12, are very closed and with a large variety of times.
FOR, NAT, AJU, SSA, CPQ and VIX are better connected to GIG than GRU nowadays, and BSB/CNF/MCO/REC/MAO has so good options in GIG and GRU at the same time. South cities (POA/IGU/CWB/NAV/FLS) are best served to GRU.
Air France is talking with JJ and G3 and if they decide to use G3 network as its distribution probably GIG will be the AF's hub as they use a larger plane to GIG and G3 network in GIG is 4 times higher than GRU (G3 operates more than 60 flights per day at GIG) and there are more than 8 cities directly connected to GIG (GRU, CGH, CNF, VIX, BSB, POA, CPQ, SSA, REC and CWB). As AF is operating 14 flights and Brazilian Airlines (TAM 14 Varig 7) 21, it's possible that in the future, AF can introduce a second GIG-CDG (changing the 747-400 into 2 777 or 1 777 + 1 A340, or even a 777 and the 747-400).
GIG structure is strong than any other brazilian airport (with the biggest runway, and two operational highways something that GRU and CGH doesn't have). Both Terminals (1 and 2) have high availability, a lot of comfort and many vip longes (American, Aerolineas, Varig/Star Aliance, Tam, Tap, Air France, Iberia). At the same time, GRU is over capacity (specially at night) and its operating some flights in remote positions as well as wasting time in all operations. A single land to the gate or remote can take 15/30 minutes in the morning. A flight MIA-GIG and after GIG-CGH can put someone in Berrini Area faster than a direct MIA-GRU and after a cab trip into Sao Paulo poor (very) traffic (immigration in Sao Paulo for Americans took more than 60 minutes).
TAP, Iberia, Air France and American flights from GIG are doing better than GRU flights (American C Class GIG-MIA is always full on Thursdays and Fridays and with high loads on Y all the days). CO IAH-GIG is getting more pax from GIG than GRU, and there is a lot of potential as 25% pax of Delta Airlines heading for GRU-ATL are in fact from Rio de Janeiro (which states a potential 50% load for GIG-ATL single flight six months previously to its start). American knows GIG potential and try to avoid a JJ's GIG-MIA flight (AA used an old 767-300ER and JJ the modern A330-200 with AVOD, Biz lie seats and First Class) and keep the high profits of the route.
RG has also announced its intention to increase more flights non stop from GIG during the next months (they have informed that FRA needs an urgent improvement as its yields are so high as GRU-FRA with better equipment). GIG-LIS will receive one daily frequency from GRU-LIS during july (with the 777-200).
And in the near future, Copa, Taca, Mexicana/Air Mexico, South African, Alitalia, KLM, Virgin, Emirates among others can introduce flights at GIG.
To the end, there is the Pan American Games in 2 years which will probably increase flights to GIG.
Does anyone has a different overview or something to add ?

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
order that some DFW flights be run to GIG after GRU.

AA has no such plans. AA's daily DFW-GRU flights connects to the GRU-GIG segment of AA 951, JFK-GRU-GIG. There is absolutley no reason to send two 40% full planes to GIG when they can send one 65-75% full aircraft. That is just stupid.
a.
 
PPVRA
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Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
RG is also showing in their schedule the RG8770 (GIG-GRU-MUC) operated with the M11

So they are still keeping the MUC operations? Nice, I thought they canceled it after the Chinese did not allow RG for direct connections to PEK.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
RG has also announced its intention to increase more flights non stop from GIG during the next months (they have informed that FRA needs an urgent improvement as its yields are so high as GRU-FRA with better equipment)

Wow, I"m guessing FRA is where that 744 will be flying to... if RG actually take delivery of it. Wouldn't it be nicer to see some 773s instead?  Wink

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
GRU is over capacity (specially at night) and its operating some flights in remote positions as well as wasting time in all operations. A single land to the gate or remote can take 15/30 minutes in the morning. A flight MIA-GIG and after GIG-CGH can put someone in Berrini Area faster than a direct MIA-GRU and after a cab trip into Sao Paulo poor (very) traffic (immigration in Sao Paulo for Americans took more than 60 minutes).

SP really needs a brand new or totally renovated airport.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Does anyone has a different overview or something to add ?

Sounds really good to me.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6215
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
in the near future, Copa, Taca, Mexicana/Air Mexico, South African, Alitalia, KLM, Virgin, Emirates among others can introduce flights at GIG.

It will be interesting if AM (AeroMexico) in the future decides to continue the MEX-GRU flight to other destinations. At the moment, like many U.S. carriers, their plane has to sit in GRU almost 12 hours waiting until it is time (late evening) to make the flight back to MEX, so there is lots of time for AM to use the equipment further. With proper freedom rights, it could continue the flight to EZE for example. Another option would be, in case the final destination of a significant number of AM passengers is Río de Janeiro, to continue the flight to GIG.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
So they are still keeping the MUC operations? Nice, I thought they canceled it after the Chinese did not allow RG for direct connections to PEK.

PPVRA, i don't expect RG to fly to MUC. I think they forget to delete the RG8770 as MUC can easily connect thru FRA or there's something in suspense that no one knows. Germany nowadays is one of the three most important international operations for RG (better than US in my oppinion as all flights are operated in a single airport with 2 staff's while in the US RG operates in 3 different airports).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Wow, I"m guessing FRA is where that 744 will be flying to... if RG actually take delivery of it. Wouldn't it be nicer to see some 773s instead?

Agree with you. FRA is a profit maker for RG and LH and if that 744 fly for RG i think will be at GRU-FRA and the 777 goes to GIG-FRA. But without Chinese route, i can't expect that RG operates the 744 (let's think that due to the lack of 777 in the market it's one of the best choices). The 773 is another step for RG, they have to face their financial problems before (pray they can arrange the partnership with Tap / private investors soonest).
And now with the new arrangements between Argentina and China, (AR will operate China from EZE) i guess RG and the Brazilian Government needs to act with China.

Thanks for your kindly comments

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
AA has no such plans. AA's daily DFW-GRU flights connects to the GRU-GIG segment of AA 951, JFK-GRU-GIG. There is absolutley no reason to send two 40% full planes to GIG when they can send one 65-75% full aircraft. That is just stupid.

First of all, fuelling a plane at GIG is at least 18% cheaper than GRU due to the tax incentive post by State Government (obvious you cannot refuel the entire tank for GIG-GRU) . Second: Park at GIG is at least 40% cheaper than GRU due to Infraero incentive. Third: GIG-ATL will open a market that nowadays is 100% AA to one of their huge competitors. Fourth: JJ will receive additional planes and it's their intention to boost GIG domestic operations as well as they have plans for a GIG-MIA nonstop in the future.
Market demand: GIG/Rio de Janeiro accounts for more than 20% of all domestic traffic in Brazil, 35% of foreign tourists, 50% of congress/events/seminars in Brazil, 20% of Domestic Savings, 15% of GDP and at least 92% of oil production. Due to the lack of domestic connections, many passangers from other cities connects thru GRU.
AA knows its strong profit from GIG and the power of that market. They can wait for DL (and i'm sure they will wait to see the loads), they can wait for RG (MIA seasonal flights), they can wait for JJ (and their future GIG-MIA flights), and the market will be divided by three or four. Or they can improve it's position in a city with more than 11 million people (Greater Rio area) and made a kind of "chinease wall". I fly several times Brazil-US and talk every flight with people in the plane, in the airports (GIG and GRU), and i have some difficults more in GIG than in GRU (okay it's only one flight now from GIG) to obtain a C ticket. Try to book a C class ticket from GIG to MIA, CDG, MAD or LIS for the next friday, or even to the other... probably you will be set into the waiting list. Try GRU, you can find AA, AF, JJ, RG, IB... São Paulo is bigger than Rio (100% right), but believe that Rio's market is not only tourists and it's a very big O&D Market even for business. Petrobras has more travellers into their three corporate buildings than the top 10 Sao Paulo Corporations together and at the same time attracts more people than any other corporate established in Brazil.
Only last weekend 120 Petrobras employees travell to US as a prize offered by an american corporate, several thru GRU with AA to DFW. Its not rare or eventual. I'm every week at Petrobras HQ.
And MAH4546 i think you are correct, now is crazyness sending two planes to GIG as the AA951 as you post could take care of demand. AA has a problem at its schedulle, first flight arrival in GIG is the MIA-GIG at about 8 am. JFK flight arive only at noon which avoid many connections.
GIG is improving and what at this time can be stupid in the future can be a mistake.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3):
It will be interesting if AM (AeroMexico) in the future decides to continue the MEX-GRU flight to other destinations. At the moment, like many U.S. carriers, their plane has to sit in GRU almost 12 hours waiting until it is time (late evening) to make the flight back to MEX, so there is lots of time for AM to use the equipment further. With proper freedom rights, it could continue the flight to EZE for example. Another option would be, in case the final destination of a significant number of AM passengers is Río de Janeiro, to continue the flight to GIG.

In fact i ithink that nowadays O&D biggest market for Mexico after Sao Paulo will be Minas Gerais, even stronger than Rio.
Rio is the HQ for Claro and Embratel, wholly owned telecom companies from Telmex. Even Oil biz is not strong between Brazil-Mexico. Trade between Brazil-Mexico is strong in Sao Paulo due to automobile industries (Volks, Ford) as well as spare parts for them. Minas with its workers trying to get into US probably represents more than 20% of AM passengers but it can be faced by local airlines. I don't have so many information on AM flights but the best way to improve utilization is continue the flight to EZE (as you post with full rights). GIG will only receive a flight from MEX when its account for more connections than GRU and at the same time, Mexicans see Rio as a good destination for tourism as oil is a bigger business in Mexico than in Rio/Brazil.
Partnership Pemex/Petrobras for the high deep drilling can help on that in the future.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
That is just stupid.

Very rude comment, coming from someone I really enjoy reading the posts...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
SP really needs a brand new or totally renovated airport.

Agree. GRU is a horrible airport, probably the worst airport of Brazil's top 10 busiest airports.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
but believe that Rio's market is not only tourists and it's a very big O&D Market even for business.

Agree.

Felipe: thanks for the very interesting overview of GIG's market. As we agreed before, I also think that demand for GIG will keep growing and we will see a slow, but progressive, growth in international operations in GIG. Domestic operatins in GIG are already very strong and by the end of the year GIG will show higher domestic traffic than GRU.

My future scenario is that GRU will become mainly an airport for O&D traffic plus connections to South Brazil. GIG will become Brazil's major gateway, the main platform for domestic connections to Brazil, which will increasingly attract more airlines. I predit GIG will be bigger (pax/year) than GRU in maximum 4 years.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
My future scenario is that GRU will become mainly an airport for O&D traffic plus connections to South Brazil. GIG will become Brazil's major gateway, the main platform for domestic connections to Brazil, which will increasingly attract more airlines. I predit GIG will be bigger (pax/year) than GRU in maximum 4 years.

Perfect resume. 100% Perfect and i agree with your post.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
SP really needs a brand new or totally renovated airport.

Agree. GRU is a horrible airport, probably the worst airport of Brazil's top 10 busiest airports.

Agree. But this is a space problem. There is nothing so big available close to São Paulo (that's why Infraero prepares Viracopos/CPQ to be another Sao Paulo hub but it's easy to predict that GIG, if connected for example with RAO and other major cities in Sao Paulo state, can attend them as a hub). GRU in fact is over its capacity, the lack of a secondary rnwy are some of the problems GRU face nowadays but the traffic is also a big concern.


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
That is just stupid.

No comments available.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
richardw
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 5:42 am

I'm waiting for a non stop LON-GIG service, hoping that VS will deliver, or perhaps TAM to LGW.
Why are the cheapest Europe-Brazil fares from BRU?
 
dellatorre
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 8:34 am

OK LIPE GIG I get your point here!!! You are assuming that in 5 years GIG will the major airport in Brazil, with the most domestic flights and international traffic.

Im' sorry but I think you're being a little bit to optimistic! The currently growth at GIG has only keep up with the existing traffic through SDU. Take as for example VIX. Before the transfer of flights from SDU top GIG Vitoria used to have around 09 daily flights to SDU. Now there's just about the same thing to GIG. The same can be said for other airports such as BSB and CNF/PLU. Traffic is only adjusting to the recent airport changes.

Although I have to admit GIG is on the path of recovering from it's lost traffic, I definitely disagree with your predictons. GIG will not surpass GRU as the prior international Gateway to Brazil. Maybe domestic traffic can level up with Guarulhos.

Airlines like, KLM, Alitalia, JAL, Swiss, Lufthansa, Air Canada have not shown any official interest in returning their operations to Rio de Janeiro. BTW, BA even reduced their GRU tag flight to only 3x a week. Will they reinstate the daily flight or even start non-stop flights? I doubt it!!!!! There has been talks about VS launching service to GIG for a long time and that never materializes.

All of those points above and many others issues prevent GIG from being the TOP airport in Brazil. They do have outstanding infra-structure, nonetheless, GRU market counts for more high-yielding passengers than GIG, not to mention higher O&D. If you take account of all GRU+CGH operations, that will be much more than what we currently have for GIG+SDU have.

Again I consider your view of GIG being in a few years a paradise for Brazilian air traficc exaggerated! Better stick with the present than get caught up in the uncertain future, dont ya think????
 
767-300ER
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 8:46 am

i agree with dellatorre. Sao Paulo not only has a larger population, but has very high yielding traffic. Although Rio has headquarters of many companies, i couldnt even begin to list those whos headquarters are in Sao Paulo. Flights to Sao Paulo were shifted to GRU many years ago when it opened. Why would airlines shift flights to GRU if they were serving GIG for so many years? Because GRU has higher yielding traffic and airlines fly where they can make money. Although Rio is important to the Brazilian economy, lets not forget that Sao Paulo is the financial and industrial hub of our wonderful country.
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):

Hardi & Felipe:

GRU and CGH may have reached their capacity, but don't forget GRU is getting a rail link with downtown (whatever 'downtown' means in this city, and possibly even connecting to CGH), a third runway, and a third terminal for domestic flights only. That alone should bring significantly more competitiveness to SP airports.

And then there is the point Dellatorre and B767-300ER made above, SP does have a higher yielding PAX base. And if that DL PAX data I posted some time ago (50% from SP, 25% from Rio, 25% from elsewhere in the country loads on their flights) serves as any indication, GIG can at most (theoretical only IMHO) get the same level GRU is in domestic/international flights.

And then don't forget RG/TP can take many connecting pax out of GRU/GIG and connect them through REC, or wherever, to their final destinations.

Cheers,
PPVRA

[Edited 2005-05-30 02:52:11]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3):

BTW, welcome back Eddie! How was your stay? Hope you enjoyed it!

Saludos,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
OK LIPE GIG I get your point here!!! You are assuming that in 5 years GIG will the major airport in Brazil, with the most domestic flights and international traffic.

No, i'm just telling that GIG become bigger in domestic pax than GRU. To become the larger in Int'l pax, only after GRU hits its final capacity (29 mm pax per year) with the Third Terminal.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
Im' sorry but I think you're being a little bit to optimistic! The currently growth at GIG has only keep up with the existing traffic through SDU. Take as for example VIX. Before the transfer of flights from SDU top GIG Vitoria used to have around 09 daily flights to SDU. Now there's just about the same thing to GIG. The same can be said for other airports such as BSB and CNF/PLU. Traffic is only adjusting to the recent airport changes.

You are at the same time right and a little wrong. GIG received a major increase from G3 and JJ. After realocation flights to BSB, CNF, SSA, REC and MAO for example have been increased. NAV for example is a new destination.
Vitoria keeps its 9 flights, but Brasilia grow from 11 to 16. Salvador from 8 to 14. Manaus from 2 to 4. In the international area, 7 new ATL-GIG, 3 new GIG-MAD, a bigger aircraft for CDG and FRA and some increase in LIS, MIA and EZE (from 2 to 3 non stop). Look to Infraero website: they expect that 7,000 pax a day change from SDU to GIG, the number exceeds 8,500 in the first week and nowadays is around 10,000. Why ? Connections.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
Although I have to admit GIG is on the path of recovering from it's lost traffic, I definitely disagree with your predictons. GIG will not surpass GRU as the prior international Gateway to Brazil. Maybe domestic traffic can level up with Guarulhos.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
GRU and CGH may have reached their capacity, but don't forget GRU is getting a rail link with downtown (whatever 'downtown' means in this city, and possibly even connecting to CGH), a third runway, and a third terminal for domestic flights only. That alone should bring significantly more competitiveness to SP airports.

My comments are all concerning to the major fact that GRU/CGH could not support too much additional traffic (they operates only 1 runway). The rail link (PPVRA you know how long takes a governament decision, can take 10 years to get ready, if so, but i agree with you, it's a possibility). The rail will conect GRU/CGH to CPQ, where Infraero expects to grow SP's airport capacity. It's a 80 miles rail system, two times higher than Actual São Paulo Metro System (which is expanding at 2/4 miles per year in the last 10 years).
As a pax, without the system, you will go to CPQ and takes the excelent SP roads to get to the capital or... goes to GIG or even CNF to get a connection to CGH ?

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
Airlines like, KLM, Alitalia, JAL, Swiss, Lufthansa, Air Canada have not shown any official interest in returning their operations to Rio de Janeiro. BTW, BA even reduced their GRU tag flight to only 3x a week. Will they reinstate the daily flight or even start non-stop flights? I doubt it!!!!! There has been talks about VS launching service to GIG for a long time and that never materializes.

The question is, some years ago the market is confortable with one single flight and the use of specific partnerships. Nowadays it changed a lot and look to specific cases:
KLM - If AF closes an agreement with G3 to distribute its flights in Brazil (they must cancel the partnership with TAM, who will connect those pax from GRU ? You probably know G3 network is a hub in CGH and they only recently start operations at GRU where they have no more than 20 flights per day while they keep more than 50 in GIG. GIG will be (in the very first moment) the option of AF/KLM. Agree ?
ALITALIA - They have a strong agreement with RG. They can use RG flights from GRU to GIG, why at the first moment they improve flights to GIG ? Charters are taking so many italians to Natal and GIG, a charter is the first step for a new comer. 25% of Alitalia traffic come from Rio. The biggest Biz market is in Rio (Telecom Italia, ENI Agip Oil, TIM, TIM.net are HQ's in Rio) and Minas (Fiat, Selenia, Magnetti Marelli) not SP. It was a comment from a cmdt not an official position from the airline.
JAL and SWISS - Rio is not their main O&D. But they have at least 20% of their pax coming to Rio (JAL probably is more than 30% due to tourists)
LUFTHANSA - Code share with Varig at RG8744/45 which RG will improve from MD11 to 777. The best yield in the route probably, even closer or a little better than RG8740.
BA - I expect they keep the 3x per week to Rio in a way Virgin can introduce it's flight to GIG. I don't have info about British operations and can't comment it.
My time:
OTHERS.....
AF - Why they use a larger plane at GIG than GRU ?
TP - Why they keep their best yields at GIG ?
IB - Why increase flights to Rio from 4 times per week to Daily if there are 7 RG and 7 IB flights from GRU. And additional 3 flights from PU/RG MVD-GIG-MAD ?
AA - Why they are trying to obtain 7 additional slots at DOT to increase GIG-MIA to twice daily (14 per week) if GRU has 18 (4 daily light) ?
DL - Why introducing a new flight (note, with a new staff, new equipment needed, sales team, ground staff) in GIG if they can improve a third GRU-ATL ?

One time i heard from Mr. Rolim: Planes goes where Pax are. I think it's a right sentence.


Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 11):
i agree with dellatorre. Sao Paulo not only has a larger population, but has very high yielding traffic. Although Rio has headquarters of many companies, i couldnt even begin to list those whos headquarters are in Sao Paulo. Flights to Sao Paulo were shifted to GRU many years ago when it opened. Why would airlines shift flights to GRU if they were serving GIG for so many years? Because GRU has higher yielding traffic and airlines fly where they can make money. Although Rio is important to the Brazilian economy, lets not forget that Sao Paulo is the financial and industrial hub of our wonderful country.

Very interesting post. Agree 100% with you. We are not discussing the economic power of São Paulo. I'm just telling that Rio is important but not the most important. One more time, planes goes to where pax are. The difference 767-300ER is that nowadays the airlines realize that is important to fly to other destinations: SSA, FOR, NAT, REC and GIG (mainly) keep international flights, something that 5 years ago doesn't happen. Brazil was a strange country, several flights to only two destinations (one of them accounting for more than 90%). What happen ? Diversification. Only that. São Paulo will remain the biggest center, the better planes, the high yield, but remember, there's markets like Rio.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
And then there is the point Dellatorre and B767-300ER made above, SP does have a higher yielding PAX base. And if that DL PAX data I posted some time ago (50% from SP, 25% from Rio, 25% from elsewhere in the country loads on their flights) serves as any indication, GIG can at most (theoretical only IMHO) get the same level GRU is in domestic/international flights.

Interesting. PPVRA, we all expect that DL will keep two flights from GRU and one from GIG. What's the objective: To capture same AA, RG, UA, JJ and even CO traffic that needs to connect in Sao Paulo to get Dallas, Washington, Chicago, Miami, Houston or Newark and them to the final destination. The market will be not only the 25% GIG pax nowadays served thru GRU, even part of the connections (DL has not announced yet any connections thru GIG) but the Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, Denver, Pitsburgh and other cities traffic from/to GIG. GRU in terms of DL will be two times higher than GIG.
I Agree, São Paulo is richer, higher, powerfull, but there are limits to its growth (in terms of airports), that's my point. Will not happen in 5 years or 10 years, but one day, people, will appear some airport bigger than GRU (could be REC or NAT improved to this condition, who knows).

Very good discussion, thanks for all replies. Excuse me for long comments.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
flyguy1
Posts: 1660
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
After some domestic flights were relocated from SDU, GIG Rio de Janeiro Int'l is growing very quickly and some airlines are doing very good yields (as well as profits in their GIG operations).

When, and for what reason did this happen?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 12:21 pm

In october 2004. The reason is that SDU is a little (but the most beautiful in my opinion) airport in downtown Rio with a capacity (nowadays) of no more than 2,4 mm pax per year and it's operating more than 6 mm a year. At the same time, GIG International with 2 big terminals and capacity for more than 15 mm pax a year were operating only 5 mm.
Brazilian Government, Rio state Government and Brazilian Airlines agreed that Rio needs to improve it's int'l airport with the other domestic operations running at that moment in SDU.
With more domestic/connection flights GIG improved from 5 to an expected 9 mm pax (2005 forecast) and from somewhat close to 50% of GRU domestic in march/04 grow to 92% of GRU domestic pax in march/05.

SDU now runs only the shuttle Rio-São Paulo, with more than 100 flights a day, and regional traffic to Macae and Campos (important off-shore) and to Sao José dos Campos (Embraer HQ). It's more than 3.5 mm pax a year. SDU is under improvements due to the Pan American Games (Rio 2007).

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 4:47 pm

Felipe,

Your enthusiasm never ceases to amaze me. All the effort invested in this proselytism should sincerely be admired. There are things, however, that should be seen from a more central, objective perspective...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Code share with Varig at RG8744/45 which RG will improve from MD11 to 777. The best yield in the route probably, even closer or a little better than RG8740.

You have to bare in mind that cases in where GIG registers better yields than GRU may be tightly related to the fact that GRU has, generally speaking, way more seat offer than GIG.

In this specific example, GRU has twice [or more] the number of seats than those from GIG to FRA. It's not strange to find this fact as one of the main reasons resposible of yield-dillution...

...Still, baring in mind the above, it is hard to picture GIG having better yields than GRU-FRA, an entirely business route, among the best examples of fully executive markets.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
I expect they keep the 3x per week to Rio in a way Virgin can introduce it's flight to GIG.

Do you honestly believe that BA's is going to sleep on the laurels and let VS, its number-one die hard enemy, cultural and business competitor, enter and steal the market out of their very own hands?

I believe that BA, upon an inminent debut from VS in Rio, would either give GIG a second shot and increase frequency trying to scare VS away, or would cancell their GIG station altogether in order to concetrate on better-yielding GRU and EZE.

I tend to think that the second situation would be more bound to happen.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
AF - Why they use a larger plane at GIG than GRU?

Felipe, you must already know that with AF, size is definitely not what matters.

AF, unlike many of its European counterparts, has a widely flexible fleet with multiple configurations, which allows for them to extract the best of each market's strenghts.

AF has expressed that GIG is their top-performer station in Brazil. That's true. But it's also undeniably real that had it not been for AF's fleet flexibility [say that they offered the same premium class layout on all long-haul aircraft], and GIG would probably not exist in AF's route map, or would be served as a tag-on to GRU. Neither would BOG.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
richardw
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 8:01 pm

In the longer term non stopping services will be needed between LON-GIG/GRU/EZE/SCL on a daily basis, avoiding stops or plane changes in CDG, MAD, GRU or EZE.
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Mon May 30, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting Richardw (Reply 18):
In the longer term non stopping services will be needed between LON-GIG/GRU/EZE/SCL on a daily basis

Currently the following are the flights from LON to Latin America:

LHR-GRU daily RG B772
LHR-GRU-EZE 4 x week B747
LHR-GRU-GIG 3 x week B747
LHR-MEX 3 x week B747

GRU gets two daily flights. Although I agree that MEX, EZE and GIG are candidates for daily nonstop flights from LON, I dont think SCL will get this service any time soon.

Rgs,
 
RCS763AV
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 12:41 am

Theres a rumor here saying AV will separate the GRU-GIG flight and will start serving both nonstop. Daily to GRU and 3x weekly to GIG.
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 20):
AV will separate the GRU-GIG flight and will start serving both nonstop. Daily to GRU and 3x weekly to GIG

Very interesting development. TA, CM, AM, MX all dont land in GIG. If AV takes this step it will open up an interesting market.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
S.P. really needs a brand new or totally renovated airport.

Wasn't that why they called VCP Sao Paulo international Airport in the 80's.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3):
At the moment, like many U.S. carriers, their plane has to sit in GRU almost 12 hours waiting until it is time (late evening) to make the flight back to MEX, so there is lots of time for AM to use the equipment further.

For Mexican and US airlines if they don't want to have their aircraft sitting in GRU or GIG 12+ hours there is South Africa: CPT and JNB. Don't know if the brazilians and southafrican would allow them fifth-rights but Pan Am used to fly GIG-CPT once upon a time.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
And in the near future, Copa, Taca, Mexicana/Air Mexico, South African, Alitalia, KLM, Virgin, Emirates among others can introduce flights at GIG.

CM is more likely to fly 1st to MAO instead of GIG. PTY-MAO-PTY is 8 hours with one hour turnaround, one crew and it's within E190 range. PTY-GIG-PTY needs a B737-700, 2 crews (southbound and northbound, depending on schedule), must be at least 4 times per week and the aircraft may have a 9+ hour turnaround..

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
Very interesting development. TA, CM, AM, MX all dont land in GIG. If AV takes this step it will open up an interesting market.


If AV thinks there's a market there, they should go for it. For many flying BOG-GIG nonstop will be quite attractive.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
Felipe,

Your enthusiasm never ceases to amaze me. All the effort invested in this proselytism should sincerely be admired. There are things, however, that should be seen from a more central, objective perspective...

Dear SouthAmerica, it's not an effort. I'm only trying to show that Brazil has a secondary market and it's growing. I respect all the perspectives, opinion, comments and i'm only 32 y.o.
I start to fly more (up to 12 flights per month) 3 years ago and i saw the worst GIG in the first months of 2004, and now the renovated GIG'2005. All i'm trying to say is that Rio de Janeiro is an important market, but not the best (it's São Paulo).

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
Felipe, you must already know that with AF, size is definitely not what matters.

AF, unlike many of its European counterparts, has a widely flexible fleet with multiple configurations, which allows for them to extract the best of each market's strenghts.

Agree with you. Same for TP as i'm talking in other topic with Hardiwv. Note: GRU has 3 flights to FRA, 4 flights to CDG, and GIG only one. Why GIG yields are high ? Because it's a biz, congress and touristic market (not so biz than SP but more for congress and touristic) and there's a lot of French and Germanish biz in Rio (France in fact more than in SP). Why AF is doing so good ? 1) Rio does not has flights to Switzerland, Netherlands, British and Italy non stop so AF can be the choice of many people 2) Brand. AF is a strong brand in Rio, even more than in the rest of Brazil 3) FF: AF never stop to fly to Rio, and probably they have more FF in Rio than any other foreign airline. 4) Destination Rio: Let's say, Rio is much more desirable than any other brazilian city and accounts alone for more than 35% tourists received by Brazil in 2004. AF is doing very good, install the first vip lounge in the new format (the first in the world) at GIG, uses a larger plane (they can change the 777 by a 747 with First and use it in GRU , don't you think ?)

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
...Still, baring in mind the above, it is hard to picture GIG having better yields than GRU-FRA, an entirely business route, among the best examples of fully executive markets.

Anyone travel to São Paulo thru one of JJ/RG connecting flights from GIG to GRU will realize that many tourists in fact connects thru GRU. The idea of a full biz market is not strong as IGU, SSA, FLS and other cities connects to São Paulo for international flights. 35% of 5,000,000 = 1,750,000 or more than 75% pax GIG received in int'l flights during 2004 (remember, this is only tourists and not include brazilians). Okay, it's a high yield market , i believe but we all know that almost all brazilians come to São Paulo for connections. 36% of Brazilian GDP is São Paulo, okay ! But there are 64% in the other states ! Why i connect thru GIG if the market size of the flights is the same of regional market ? It is why people goes to GRU, more flights, more people, more connecting flights.... how to change it ... it's not possible. One flight to MIA from GIG (and only non stop to US) is funny (but no problem, as RJ pax can take the other 4 from GRU as well as 2 to DFW, 2 to ATL....).

So let's introduce a new question:
When some airline offer a flight FOR-MIA non stop, do you think people will travell 3 hours to SP to get a connecting flight to JFK ? It's a brazilian market problem started by RG's decision to Hub their operations in GRU. Why TP is so well with northeast flights ? Strong Portuguese Market ? No, fast connections to Europe. It's clear that 40% of GRU pax are from São Paulo, others 60% comes from other cities/states/even countries. Why ? More Options!
Why fly to FOR if FOR pax goes to GRU ? How to HUB operations in Brazil at GRU , up to 3 hours far from many north/northeast cities without expecting a new comer like TP (okay, TP uses RG network as a Star member) ?

Southamerica, thanks for the reply. Only for your info i live in Sao Paulo nowadays and travell int'l more from GRU than GIG due to the lack of options.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
GRU gets two daily flights. Although I agree that MEX, EZE and GIG are candidates for daily nonstop flights from LON, I dont think SCL will get this service any time soon.



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
Do you honestly believe that BA's is going to sleep on the laurels and let VS, its number-one die hard enemy, cultural and business competitor, enter and steal the market out of their very own hands?

If BA does not operate even a 3x non stop to GIG probably VS will. And the point is that VS will probably try to improve it's service as well as connections thru GIG. Some days is better a GIG-CGH than a tax GRU-downtown São Paulo. And a non stop LHR-GIG will probably as SouthAmerica post, steal BA's market. Hardi, do you think a LHR-GIG-SCL will be a good option (remember only Lan operates 2x weekly GIG-SCL non stop)

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 22):
CM is more likely to fly 1st to MAO instead of GIG. PTY-MAO-PTY is 8 hours with one hour turnaround, one crew and it's within E190 range. PTY-GIG-PTY needs a B737-700, 2 crews (southbound and northbound, depending on schedule), must be at least 4 times per week and the aircraft may have a 9+ hour turnaround

Strong point. MAO is closer, it's far from connections at GRU/GIG and is claiming for flights to US (or connections as CM can make possible) and other North America destinations. If CM comes previous to JJ/RG they can fix their brand in MAO. Looking to TP example in the northeast, MAO is an open market!

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Dear SouthAmerica, it's not an effort. I'm only trying to show that Brazil has a secondary market and it's growing. I respect all the perspectives, opinion, comments and i'm only 32 y.o.

Still, it requires quite a high level of enthusiasm. It's nice as your posts, until now, have allowed for interesting debates.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
GRU has 3 flights to FRA, 4 flights to CDG, and GIG only one. Why GIG yields are high? Because it's a biz, congress and touristic market

...Because GIG has limited offer and less capacity than GRU. If GIG had half of GRU's seat offer, yields would be inmensely dilluted.

It's quite simple Felipe, and it's AA's strategy with flights from their MIA hub to LatinAmerica. By limiting capacity in most markets, they are able to maximize yields obtaining much better results.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
AF is doing very good, install the first vip lounge in the new format (the first in the world) at GIG, uses a larger plane

I agree, and I have never said the opposite.

My point is, however, that if AF didn't have the ability of adapting it's fleet depending on the needs/strenghts of each market, GIG would not have nonstops to CDG, or would be served as a tag-on from GRU. It's hard to think that GIG, which is now performing marvelously for AF, could support full First/Business year-round products simultaneously and successfully.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
they can change the 777 by a 747 with First and use it in GRU, don't you think?)

No. If GRU gets upgraded, by logic, it would be to the 77W.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Anyone travel to São Paulo thru one of JJ/RG connecting flights from GIG to GRU will realize that many tourists in fact connects thru GRU. The idea of a full biz market is not strong as IGU, SSA, FLS and other cities connects to São Paulo for international flights. 35% of 5,000,000 = 1,750,000 or more than 75% pax GIG received in int'l flights during 2004 (remember, this is only tourists and not include brazilians). Okay, it's a high yield market , i believe but we all know that almost all brazilians come to São Paulo for connections.

True. But I was only referring to the specific case of GIG/GRU-FRA, and not to all international routes from GRU.

Following the above, it is impossible to justify the success of GRU-FRA thanks to connections, as you said. It would be a contradiction. According to yourself, GIG already has a better domestic network than GRU. So, remembering that GIG has its own nonstops to FRA, wouldn't you think that someone coming from Germany would choose GIG over GRU for connections intra-Brazil?

So this helps to further prove that GRU-FRA relies basically on high-yielding O&D, and not on connecting traffic.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 22):
For Mexican and US airlines if they don't want to have their aircraft sitting in GRU or GIG 12+ hours there is South Africa: CPT and JNB

Impossible. Im order to operate a run GRU-CPT or GRU-JNB you would need 9h on each leag, whih would make 18h + about 1-2h cleaning/refuelling = 20h. SA dedicates a A346 entirely to the GRU market (24h).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Hardi, do you think a LHR-GIG-SCL will be a good option (remember only Lan operates 2x weekly GIG-SCL non stop)

I dont think this could be a good option. Chile-Brazil market is already well served and very competitive. Airlines would only fly to GIG nonstop. I dont think SCL will, at any time soon, get a nonstop from LHR. There are other destinations which would come first.

As I stated above, VS has shown interest in GIG. This interest is something recent, which was published on VS's wish-list last year. GIG is definietly on VS's plans.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
So this helps to further prove that GRU-FRA relies basically on high-yielding O&D, and not on connecting traffic

SOUTH, you are correct. One cannot compare a huge market as GRU, which can sustain such a variety of intercontinental flights. GRU, i.e. Sao Paulo city, is major magnet for all these flights.

[Feira Milano, the biggest organises of congress in the world, recently announced the constructions of a mega congress centre nearby GRU. It will be twice the size of Anhembi Congress Centre, currently the biggest in the region, and host three hotels].

GIG does not have the power, business and corporate potential, to attact the flights GRU now handle. This is a reality. The engine of GRU is the amount of Biz and First seats it call fill. It is amazing! On the other hand, ailrines already well established in GRU, will search for new market niches in Brazil, and GIG has a role to play in this regard. GIG could serve as excellent connecting hub to complement its typically low-yield as compared to GRU.

Rgs,
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Anyone travel to São Paulo thru one of JJ/RG connecting flights from GIG to GRU will realize that many tourists in fact connects thru GRU. The idea of a full biz market is not strong as IGU, SSA, FLS and other cities connects to São Paulo for international flights. 35% of 5,000,000 = 1,750,000 or more than 75% pax GIG received in int'l flights during 2004 (remember, this is only tourists and not include brazilians). Okay, it's a high yield market , i believe but we all know that almost all brazilians come to São Paulo for connections. 36% of Brazilian GDP is São Paulo, okay ! But there are 64% in the other states ! Why i connect thru GIG if the market size of the flights is the same of regional market ? It is why people goes to GRU, more flights, more people, more connecting flights.... how to change it ... it's not possible.

Great, now I don't have to type a huge response (thanks Hardi), this is why it's not gonna work:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
GIG does not have the power, business and corporate potential, to attact the flights GRU now handle. This is a reality. The engine of GRU is the amount of Biz and First seats it call fill. It is amazing! On the other hand, ailrines already well established in GRU, will search for new market niches in Brazil, and GIG has a role to play in this regard. GIG could serve as excellent connecting hub to complement its typically low-yield as compared to GRU.

Airlines will not change from GRU to GIG to accomodate low-yielding pax. And don't forget, if you are coming from Europe and your destination is in the NE/North (maybe even for BSB), LIS is a much better choice than GRU/GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):

So let's introduce a new question:
When some airline offer a flight FOR-MIA non stop, do you think people will travell 3 hours to SP to get a connecting flight to JFK ? It's a brazilian market problem started by RG's decision to Hub their operations in GRU. Why TP is so well with northeast flights ? Strong Portuguese Market ? No, fast connections to Europe. It's clear that 40% of GRU pax are from São Paulo, others 60% comes from other cities/states/even countries. Why ? More Options!

It's not much about quantity, but who. And the half of the 60% probably comes from POA/CWB/CNF/BSB, not far from GRU/GIG and with scheduling options almost down to the minute.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Some days is better a GIG-CGH than a tax GRU-downtown São Paulo.

Very true.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
It's quite simple Felipe, and it's AA's strategy with flights from their MIA hub to LatinAmerica. By limiting capacity in most markets, they are able to maximize yields obtaining much better results.

They don't really have a choice since Brasil-USA bilaterals are filled up on the U.S. carriers side. And they can't rely on that strategy forever if RG/JJ begin flying to the U.S. from elsewhere other than GIG/GRU.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
So, remembering that GIG has its own nonstops to FRA, wouldn't you think that someone coming from Germany would choose GIG over GRU for connections intra-Brazil?

Maybe, depending where they want to go, but LIS is a very good option if your final destination is in the NE/North and even Mid-West of the country.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Hardi, do you think a LHR-GIG-SCL will be a good option (remember only Lan operates 2x weekly GIG-SCL non stop)

I dont think this could be a good option. Chile-Brazil market is already well served and very competitive. Airlines would only fly to GIG nonstop. I dont think SCL will, at any time soon, get a nonstop from LHR. There are other destinations which would come first.

What about LHR-CCS/BOG-SCL?

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 22):
Wasn't that why they called VCP Sao Paulo international Airport in the 80's.

That's a third airport. Now mainly used for Cargo, it handled international operations once CGH could not expand anymore to handle them (traffic and larger aircraft) and GRU did not exist. Believe it or not, but GRU is only 20 years old.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Southamerica
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
They don't really have a choice since Brasil-USA bilaterals are filled up on the U.S. carriers side. And they can't rely on that strategy forever if RG/JJ begin flying to the U.S. from elsewhere other than GIG/GRU.

Check again. Since when is Latin America [as I clearly stated in my post] only limited to Brazil? I referred to the strategy AA applies for all of the region, including countries where opening up more frequencies is relatively easy.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Maybe, depending where they want to go, but LIS is a very good option if your final destination is in the NE/North and even Mid-West of the country.

Agreed, I won't argue that. In order to make my point, however, I was limiting the case to the situation between GIG and GRU, only.





SOUTHAMERICA
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 30):
Check again. Since when is Latin America [as I clearly stated in my post] only limited to Brazil? I referred to the strategy AA applies for all of the region, including countries where opening up more frequencies is relatively easy.

True, sorry, was assuming things...

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
...Because GIG has limited offer and less capacity than GRU. If GIG had half of GRU's seat offer, yields would be inmensely dilluted.

It's quite simple Felipe, and it's AA's strategy with flights from their MIA hub to LatinAmerica. By limiting capacity in most markets, they are able to maximize yields obtaining much better results.

Agree with offer not with capacity. GIG is so big as GRU.
AA's strategy is perfect. Mainly as brazilian airlines are not in condition to increase flights even for MIA.


Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
My point is, however, that if AF didn't have the ability of adapting it's fleet depending on the needs/strenghts of each market, GIG would not have nonstops to CDG, or would be served as a tag-on from GRU. It's hard to think that GIG, which is now performing marvelously for AF, could support full First/Business year-round products simultaneously and successfully.

I got your point. Sorry for missunderstood. Agree, probably they fly CDG-GRU-GIG.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
No. If GRU gets upgraded, by logic, it would be to the 77W.

So you call BA's change of a 772 for a 744 as downgrade ? Or you think about the new 773 ?

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
Following the above, it is impossible to justify the success of GRU-FRA thanks to connections, as you said. It would be a contradiction. According to yourself, GIG already has a better domestic network than GRU. So, remembering that GIG has its own nonstops to FRA, wouldn't you think that someone coming from Germany would choose GIG over GRU for connections intra-Brazil?

So this helps to further prove that GRU-FRA relies basically on high-yielding O&D, and not on connecting traffic.

It's not only to connections and i said that. And GIG up to now is little than GRU in terms of connections. FRA market is a Star Aliance Market and Star hub's in Brazil is GRU (GIG is secondary nowadays). As you said, less offer. Some GRU pax in fact connects to Rio, this is what i'm saying.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
GIG does not have the power, business and corporate potential, to attact the flights GRU now handle. This is a reality. The engine of GRU is the amount of Biz and First seats it call fill. It is amazing! On the other hand, ailrines already well established in GRU, will search for new market niches in Brazil, and GIG has a role to play in this regard. GIG could serve as excellent connecting hub to complement its typically low-yield as compared to GRU.

And i agree with you. GRU's flight will remain at GRU. But Hardi, GIG is not low-yield. Airlines operating there and their recent comments shows that. It's not as high as GRU but it's a good profit generator even for biz seats.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
They don't really have a choice since Brasil-USA bilaterals are filled up on the U.S. carriers side. And they can't rely on that strategy forever if RG/JJ begin flying to the U.S. from elsewhere other than GIG/GRU.

UA probably can't operate the second GRU-IAD due to the return of some aircrafts (767-300ER) to lessors. So could be in fact 9 slots (2 now unused and this 7 from UA) available. Let's see.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Maybe, depending where they want to go, but LIS is a very good option if your final destination is in the NE/North and even Mid-West of the country.

Agree too.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:43 am

Numbers from Infraero website apr/2005

Guarulhos domestic: 495.887 (- 4,87% from March)
Galeao domestic: 485.295 (+ 0,45% from March)

GIG is now 98% of GRU domestic... and remember that GIG increase its flights in the first days of may/05. And remember, march is the summer season end.

Jan: 82%
Feb: 86%
Mar: 92%
Apr: 98%

I will resume in a new topic all the numbers for the major brazilian airports.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2300
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):
Agree with offer not with capacity. GIG is so big as GRU.

You got me wrong Felipe. I meant capacity as in aircraft volume and seats offered in GRU compared to GIG. My intention was not to question the city's capacity to generate traffic in general.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):
So you call BA's change of a 772 for a 744 as downgrade ? Or you think about the new 773?

I was referring to AF's case, since BA doesn't operate 773s of any sort.

As for your question, I really can't say because I have yet to experience BA's service on either the 772 or 744.

However, in many cases, chaging a 772 for a 774 can be easily called a downgrade, seen from a passenger's perspective. Several airlines, say UA, offer a far superior inflight product onboard the 772s than on the 744s.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 36):
You got me wrong Felipe. I meant capacity as in aircraft volume and seats offered in GRU compared to GIG. My intention was not to question the city's capacity to generate traffic in general.

Sorry. I understood as airport installations and terminal capacities. You are 100% right.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 36):
However, in many cases, chaging a 772 for a 774 can be easily called a downgrade, seen from a passenger's perspective. Several airlines, say UA, offer a far superior inflight product onboard the 772s than on the 744s.

Sounds good. I never travel on a 744, that's why i asked you. The 777 is really a fantastic plane, better with the AVOD system (i hate AA's 777-200 non avod).

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
and is claiming for flights to US (or connections as CM can make possible) and other North America destinations. If

Manaus has three non-stop flights a week to MIA.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
What about LHR-CCS/BOG-SCL?

Nobody flies LHR-BOG/CCS. British AIirways pulled out of both Caracas and Bogota last January.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
Very rude comment, coming from someone I really enjoy reading the posts...

I'm sorry that it was missinterperted, but that was not a personal attack. I was commeting on AA, not anybody else.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 34):
UA probably can't operate the second GRU-IAD due to the return of some aircrafts (767-300ER) to lessors.

And lack of bookings. Instead of one profitable daily 763, they are going to have a glut of unneeded capacity.
a.
 
Southamerica
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Nobody flies LHR-BOG/CCS. British AIirways pulled out of both Caracas and Bogota last January.

BA pulled out of BOG/CCS on February 6.

Anyway, I believe the user was only questioning the feasibility of a new operation of that sort, this time continuing to SCL.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 36):
many cases, chaging a 772 for a 774 can be easily called a downgrade, seen from a passenger's perspective

In the case of BA, the replacement of the B777 with the B747 to GRU was clearly an upgrade, because its intention was to boost availability of Biz/First seats. No doubt about it. BA B747s have the same interior of BA B777s, all featuring the magnificient lie-flat biz bubble.

However, in some cases, the switch from the B747 for the B777 could also be an upgrade: for example, in the case of KLM in GRU. Here because KL has the old interiors in the B747 and new interiors and new world business class only available in KL B777s.

In the specific case of AF, the B777 have the new biz class, while the B747 have the old interior and old biz class. AF B747s are expected to be renovated in the coming months/years.

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Tue May 31, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 40):
In the specific case of AF, the B777 have the new biz class, while the B747 have the old interior and old biz class. AF B747s are expected to be renovated in the coming months/years.

Some of their 744s have a different, low-density configuration with better premium services and still have F class. These are always on the CDG-MIA and CDG-LAX-PPT flights, and also rotated to some other routes, IIRC.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
Some of their 744s have a different, low-density configuration with better premium services and still have F class. These are always on the CDG-MIA and CDG-LAX-PPT flights, and also rotated to some other routes, IIRC

Tks, I was not aware of it. However, all of AF's B747 still dont have the new configuration, inclusive LAX and MIA. The biz class for these routes are the same of the ones used for GIG, CCS and MRU, with the exception that F class is available.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Manaus has three non-stop flights a week to MIA.

Yes, but if sometime soon CM was to start PTY-MAO-PTY, not only US-MAO traffic would benefit.
Would interline SJU/JFK/LAX-MIA // MIA-MAO be better product than CM SJU/JFK/LAX-PTY-MAO ?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Impossible. Im order to operate a run GRU-CPT or GRU-JNB you would need 9h on each leag, whih would make 18h + about 1-2h cleaning/refuelling = 20h. SA dedicates a A346 entirely to the GRU market (24h).

Lets assume a US airline has a plane laying idle in GIG from 0530 to 0030, in such a case a GIG-CPT-GIG is OK, it only requires 18h including turnaround; and by the way, NO airline flies GIG-South Africa.

[Edited 2005-05-31 17:16:03]
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
incitatus
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:18 am

If United does not use frequencies for a second IAD-GRU, it's possible that Continental will get a few of the frequencies and launch the oil run IAH-GIG nonstop.

Rio's potential for service is very good but tourism/conference volumes will only go up after the city is made much safer than it is today.
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Southamerica
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 40):
However, in some cases, the switch from the B747 for the B777 could also be an upgrade: for example, in the case of KLM in GRU. Here because KL has the old interiors in the B747 and new interiors and new world business class only available in KL B777s.

Exactly. That's precisely what I said in UA's case, where the 777s are known to be a superior product than the 744s.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
PPVRA
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 39):
Anyway, I believe the user was only questioning the feasibility of a new operation of that sort, this time continuing to SCL.

Precisely.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 43):
Lets assume a US airline has a plane laying idle in GIG from 0530 to 0030, in such a case a GIG-CPT-GIG is OK, it only requires 18h including turnaround; and by the way, NO airline flies GIG-South Africa.

Two long hauls when you could fly one (and save time) as an alternative doesn't make sense. It would be really cool, I'lll give you that, but it's really far fetched.

AA should try to connect onwards to BSB/CNF/POA. Would MAO work? they could fly with the cargo hold pretty full (a la RG to AMS/CPH... but then, MAO is pretty far away).

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 44):
If United does not use frequencies for a second IAD-GRU, it's possible that Continental will get a few of the frequencies and launch the oil run IAH-GIG nonstop.

Rio's potential for service is very good but tourism/conference volumes will only go up after the city is made much safer than it is today.

I don't think CO has plane availability and at the same time GIG-GRU-IAH loads come mainly from GIG, a GIG-IAH will probably make the GRU-IAH not profitable. I bet on AA as they have also requested to DOT frequencies to fly a second daily MIA-GIG. Meanwhile, the end of RG's network could change everything.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
[Feira Milano, the biggest organises of congress in the world, recently announced the constructions of a mega congress centre nearby GRU. It will be twice the size of Anhembi Congress Centre, currently the biggest in the region, and host three hotels].

Hardi, i confirmed it today and also Panrotas states the same: Rio has the higher yields hotels in Brazil. Accor has more than 100 hotels in Brazil and who's the best: Sofitel Rio. Renaissance or Marriot ? Marriot. And what about Copa... Rio's hotels are growing more than 10 years ago, there are more than 20 hotels under construction, and whether Feira Milano chooses SP, Rio has just get three new medium convention centers, and keeps two times more congress, seminars than São Paulo.
But..i know and agree Sao Paulo Market for airlines is bigger than Rio.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: GIG Non-stop Flight Improvements

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
AA should try to connect onwards to BSB/CNF/POA. Would MAO work? they could fly with the cargo hold pretty full (a la RG to AMS/CPH... but then, MAO is pretty far away).

CNF is in my opinion the best market to the US after GRU/GIG. As probably AA will receive the slots from UA in the near future, it can operate MIA-GIG-CNF (in the second flight). CNF is a low yield market but can bring high loads as it's the major brazilian community into the US. Probably 10% to 15% of all AA pax boarding to/from Brazil are Minas Gerais (CNF) citizens. And it's an already know market by AA. As a new airport development (after the relocation from PLU) probably Infraero will assist with incentives to bring one more international flight.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !