as739x
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Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Mon May 30, 2005 10:33 pm

With all the problems CLE is having with landing new carriers, protecting CO, and not enough gates space, I raise the question. Do you think B6 may choose Akron-Canton?

My wish list:
CAK-JFK 3 daily E190
CAK-FLL 1 daily E190 (though FL does Sat. service and FLL needs gates)
*** CAK-OAK 1 DAILY E190 (major wish I know)

ASSFO
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luv2fly
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Mon May 30, 2005 10:46 pm

Well IMHO I could see this happening for just the reasons you mention. Though if B6 ends up flying from PIT first then I really do not see CAK happening. I do see them going into DAY and not taking on DL in CVG, also see them in CMH as well.
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jmc1975
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

With the new JFK-BUR service, it's a high likelihood....for a tech stop.  Smile
.......
 
Falcon84
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Mon May 30, 2005 10:58 pm

Actually, in talking with some B6 employees in CLE, they have plans to go into both CAK and CLE. I don't know exactly which routes, but I doubt they'd be overlapping routes. CAK could possibly get NYC service, while CLE gets FLA service, or visa-versa.

But both airports are on the B6 wish-list.
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as739x
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Mon May 30, 2005 11:12 pm

Wow falcon...that knocked me off my chair. Both, thats very unexpected! I would love to see it though. Luv2fly, you make a great point with PIT and being so close to CAK. But if CLE and CAK are on the wish-list, maybe they will be at all 3 airports. JMC, LMAO......BUR-CAK-JFK service! BRILLIANT!

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mariner
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Actually, in talking with some B6 employees in CLE

What employees does B6 have in CLE - and why?

cheers

mariner
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goCOgo
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
What employees does B6 have in CLE - and why?

Not sure what he means, but he didn't say they were B6 employees WORKING in CLE. They could have been just passing through. One can only hope they were here in negotiations with Mok and Szabo. bouncy 

With the US/HP merger, plus the uncertainty surrounding Indy Air's future, there should be a gate or two in A open soon. Therefore, the only think that would stop B6 is another CLE moment of idiocy. I could see B6 even having overlapping flights with CAK, say 1x from CAK, 3x from CLE to JFK, etc. Remember, though, with FL's LGA, BOS and Florida service, B6 may not fancy going into heavy competition with another LCC on nearly identical routes. That being said, I think B6 will most likely come to CAK in some fashion (I'm sure Krum will come close to paying B6 to come), say at 75% odds, and give them 50-50 odds on coming to CLE.
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mariner
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 6):
he didn't say they were B6 employees WORKING in CLE.

I didn't assume they were working - although I'm not sure why else they would be there. Even negotiating is "working".  Smile

But I am having a problem with the concept of B6 (or anyone) serving both CLE and CAK.

It would double the cost of ground staff and I find it hard to believe that the passenger catchment area for each airport is so markedly different.

If nothing else, I would think potential passengers would get very, very confused - they can get confused enough when an airline operates out of two terminals at one airport.

There's a fuss with Frontier at ANC - they fly out of one terminal, while the different, feeder airline, Frontier Flying Service, operates out of another. Many pax have turned up at the big Frontier expecting to fly an Airbus to Fort Yukon. Or at the little Frontier expecting to fly a 1900D to DEN.

But, anything's possible, so if JetBlue do serve CLE and CAK I'm sure that's great for spotters. I can't think who else would benefit.

cheers

mariner
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luv2fly
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 6):
With the US/HP merger, plus the uncertainty surrounding Indy Air's future, there should be a gate or two in A open soon. Therefore, the only think that would stop B6 is another CLE moment of idiocy. I could see B6 even having overlapping flights with CAK, say 1x from CAK, 3x from CLE to JFK, etc. Remember, though, with FL's LGA, BOS and Florida service, B6 may not fancy going into heavy competition with another LCC on nearly identical routes. That being said, I think B6 will most likely come to CAK in some fashion (I'm sure Krum will come close to paying B6 to come), say at 75% odds, and give them 50-50 odds on coming to CLE.

I could very much see CLE airport officials screwing this up, also I can see CAK being very aggressive to get B6 and CLE not being aggressive enough and go after them.
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goCOgo
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):
I could very much see CLE airport officials screwing this up, also I can see CAK being very aggressive to get B6 and CLE not being aggressive enough and go after them.

But remember. Mok was not around during some of the earlier snafus. They have brought in some pros since some of the major screw ups, though some responsible, plus the idiot City Council are still there. They did get Indy Air.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
I didn't assume they were working - although I'm not sure why else they would be there.

By saying "does B6" made it sound like you meant B6 had them there for work. Sorry. But is it that foreign that someone would actually want to visit Cleveland for pleasure or family? We have a few things besides work to offer here in Cleveland.  wink 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
But I am having a problem with the concept of B6 (or anyone) serving both CLE and CAK.

NW, DL, and US serve both, although via regional affiliates. Many to the south and east of Cleveland prefer CAK as it just as close or closer for them.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 9):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
I didn't assume they were working - although I'm not sure why else they would be there.

By saying "does B6" made it sound like you meant B6 had them there for work. Sorry. But is it that foreign that someone would actually want to visit Cleveland for pleasure or family? We have a few things besides work to offer here in Cleveland.

Some people live in other places and fly to work at B6. I know pilots based in Tennessee or something for NW and they live in Virginia Beach and fly to work,a nd I have heard many stories about people flying to work.


CAK and CLE will never happen. CLE will screw up and drive them away and if the do go to CAK they will be in direct competition with FL which may or may not work. FL has to offer LGA being closer but no IFE and cramed seats B6 is the opposite so it might balance out(B6 seats are bigger but not by ALOT).

CAK/CLE will be off in the next couple of years thought.


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N766UA
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:45 am

From what I've heard, B6 was already in CLE negotiating and has already chosen which of the 2 to serve (CAK vs. CLE), however I was not told the outcome of their decision. Basically it's just wait and see. Something tells me it's CLE, though, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.
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xlpants
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:02 am

FL loads to/from LGA and BOS have dropped like a rock since Simplifares hit CLE.
B6 will go to CLE where the real demand is!
 
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mariner
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 12):
B6 will go to CLE where the real demand is!

Interesting. Frontier seems happy with demand from CAK - to the point of adding DAY to their network:

Frontier CEO Potter: "Strong bookings for our new Akron/Canton service emboldened us to look toward adding more cities in Ohio," said Potter. "Dayton is the fifth largest metropolitan market without non-stop service to Denver so we saw a great opportunity to bring service to the West and Mexico to an underserved market, which is an ideal situation for Frontier.""

cheers

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galapagapop
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Actually, in talking with some B6 employees in CLE, they have plans to go into both CAK and CLE. I don't know exactly which routes, but I doubt they'd be overlapping routes. CAK could possibly get NYC service, while CLE gets FLA service, or visa-versa.

But both airports are on the B6 wish-list.

no offense but how many time have we heard, " I heard B6 is planning on serving (blank) airport soon"? PIT, PVD, MHT, MIA ORD, MDW... all have been mentioned not to forget the countless city pairs BOS-JFK, BUF-FLL and on and on, I'm not knocking the idea but I would just like to point out this is not some new phrase we've heard about B6 and a city. and none of the mentioned cities or city pairs have yet to be announced...
Cheers!
 
xlpants
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
Frontier seems happy with demand from CAK - to the point of adding DAY to their network

Two airports negatively influenced by Simplifares. Potter and his planners were looking at old data from last year and were seeing all this wonderful artificial growth due to high fares at CVG and CLE. Traffic is now finding it's way back to where the demand really is!
 
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mariner
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 15):
Potter and his planners were looking at old data from last year and were seeing all this wonderful artificial growth due to high fares at CVG and CLE.

Sorry, I don't understand that. Are you saying that CEO Potter and his planners have not seen good bookings for Frontier out of CAK?

I think they would know what their bookings are like.

And are they starting a second route to Ohio - before their first has started - because of last year's data? But - they weren't flying to Ohio last year.

cheers

mariner
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Falcon84
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
What employees does B6 have in CLE - and why?

You see B6 pilots in CLE all the time, probably from the area, and Jump-seating, usually to JFK, to go back to work. I've seen a lot of them in their blue tops in CLE.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):
I could very much see CLE airport officials screwing this up

Not as likely as it was a few years back, when Mike White had political hacks running Hopkins. John Mok has been involved in major airports-HKG and DFW come right to mind, and he won't swing and miss like those political appointees would.

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 10):
CLE will screw up and drive them away

Again, Mok is no hack, and he won't "screw up", as you say. B6 could take CAK over CLE, possibly because of gate space, but the days where CLE deliberately ran off airlines is probably gone for good.
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redngold
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 9):
But remember. Mok was not around during some of the earlier snafus... They did get Indy Air.

Independence Air was already at CLE as Atlantic Coast Airlines, doing business as both United Express and Delta Connection. The people who negotiated for gate space, landing fees, etc., already knew what CLE was like from past experience. I wouldn't say CLE "attracted" Indy Air... Indy Air simply remained at CLE under its new name.


redngold
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luv2fly
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting Redngold (Reply 18):
Independence Air was already at CLE as Atlantic Coast Airlines, doing business as both United Express and Delta Connection. The people who negotiated for gate space, landing fees, etc., already knew what CLE was like from past experience. I wouldn't say CLE "attracted" Indy Air... Indy Air simply remained at CLE under its new name.


redngold

I have to agree with this! I still do not hold out much faith in CLE officials attracting new airlines, this might be where the business is though it is not where the welcome is.
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toltommy
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:23 pm

I don't see B6 coming to either airport with JFK service. There's already a ton of seats to both EWR and JFK. FL carriers more pax per day CAK-LGA than CO does CLE-LGA now. The numbers were posted in an Akron Beacon Journal article when the CAK-LAS service was started. Word among the FL employees at CAK that I know is that the LAS service came earlier than expected, because FL was afraid F9 would start it if the DEN service got off to a good start. FL could go daily CAK-FLL overnight if the needed to keep B6 out of the market. Word is that FL will have 3 of the 5 new gates at CAK. I think there's more "low hanging fruit" for B6 to pick off at CLE than at CAK.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
Quoting Xlpants (Reply 12):
B6 will go to CLE where the real demand is!

Interesting. Frontier seems happy with demand from CAK - to the point of adding DAY to their network:

Frontier CEO Potter: "Strong bookings for our new Akron/Canton service emboldened us to look toward adding more cities in Ohio," said Potter. "Dayton is the fifth largest metropolitan market without non-stop service to Denver so we saw a great opportunity to bring service to the West and Mexico to an underserved market, which is an ideal situation for Frontier.""

cheers

mariner

The difference is, Jetblue turns a profit and Frontier doesn't.
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cle757
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Again, Mok is no hack, and he won't "screw up", as you say. B6 could take CAK over CLE, possibly because of gate space, but the days where CLE deliberately ran off airlines is probably gone for good

What Mok needs to do is fix the customs area so Continental can fly more international flights to CLE.
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luv2fly
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 22):
What Mok needs to do is fix the customs area so Continental can fly more international flights to CLE.

YES! It is so backwards and a true awful experience.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AirDude66
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:00 am

There is a political side to this. CAK airport management is in the hip pocket of FL. FL operations here are heavily protected. US had discussed CAK-LGA service and the airport managed to "politically" squash the idea. Same thing occured when NW had discussed adding CAK-BOS CRJ service. B6 would be in direct competition with FL and the Airport authority will not permit this. Keep in mind CAK is not a "public" managed airport.
 
qantas777
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:17 am

about, lets say, 72.5%
 
Falcon84
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 22):
What Mok needs to do is fix the customs area so Continental can fly more international flights to CLE.

I was talking to our Assistant director of customer service, and told him I'm working on an idea for that very thing. Who knows if they'll listen to a little fish in the pond, but I imagine my idea would be as valid as anyone ele's.
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cle757
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
I was talking to our Assistant director of customer service, and told him I'm working on an idea for that very thing. Who knows if they'll listen to a little fish in the pond, but I imagine my idea would be as valid as anyone ele's

I had the idea of tearing down the express hanger and building a international arrivals buidling there, that way the passengers would have easy access to the parking garage,cabs, shuttles etc etc..Then I would build new hangers and new cargo facilitys on Snow Rd, with a bridge over 237 so planes could taxi there. I would then extend Concourse C and D...But what do I know.
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mariner
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 21):
The difference is, Jetblue turns a profit and Frontier doesn't.

And good morning to you. Again.

I am confused by your post. Please explain how the fact Frontier did not turn a profit this year - as opposed to last - affects the fact that they are seeing strong bookings out of CAK?

cheers

mariner
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DAYFL
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:57 am

Xplants,

How is CAK's or DAY's growth artificial. I know you have a bias, but everything within a 50 nautical mile radius of your airport is fare game. People go for the fares. If your hometown airport doesn't have them they go to the airport that does.
 
toltommy
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting AirDude66 (Reply 24):
There is a political side to this. CAK airport management is in the hip pocket of FL. FL operations here are heavily protected. US had discussed CAK-LGA service and the airport managed to "politically" squash the idea. Same thing occured when NW had discussed adding CAK-BOS CRJ service. B6 would be in direct competition with FL and the Airport authority will not permit this. Keep in mind CAK is not a "public" managed airport.

Lets address these one by one...

1. Yes, US did "discuss" CAK-LGA service, but only AFTER AirTran had announced it. In all the years that US was the dominant carrier at CAK, they never flew CAK-LGA. I've never heard Fred Krum mention NW wanting to start CAK-BOS service, I'll ask him or Kristy next time I see either of them. I will only assume that NW was doing the same thing as US which was protect their market. Neither of those service would have been successful if offered by a legacy carrier, because its likely that the fares would've been much higher than FL currently charges.

2. The airport board supports FL because FL supports CAK. If FL was really in the "hip pocket" as you put it, then the airport wouldn't have let F9 in at all, instead they would've gotten FL to add CAK-DEN service.

3. CAK is to a "public" managed airport. The board of trustees consist of 4 trustees appointed by Summit County (Akron) Council, and 4 by the Stark County (Canton) Commissioners. These folks have to work together, as there is no majority. They do their job well, and give Fred and Kristy the ability to attract new service to the airport. The structure of the Board doesn't allow politicians to get in the way of growing the airport!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 12):
FL loads to/from LGA and BOS have dropped like a rock since Simplifares hit CLE.
B6 will go to CLE where the real demand is!

You are confusing CLE with CVG and CAK with DAY. Simplifares are a Delta thing, not Continental. They have been hurting things at Dayton, although last week was a good week for them newswise, Frontier announce Denver service and American Eagle announced Miami service.
a.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
although last week was a good week for them newswise

Both of which have mainline service from CVG. At least MIA has for now before it goes to all RJ's in Sep. So I doubt any CVG passengers will be going back to DAY for these flights. It only benefits travelers committed to the DAY airport. Still good news for the airport though.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
xlpants
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
Simplifares are a Delta thing, not Continental

Tell that to Continental and the rest of the industry!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
You are confusing CLE with CVG and CAK with DAY.

No confusion. CLE fares have dropped to LGA and BOS (because of Simplifares). FL loads to LGA and BOS dropped like a rock with the drop in fares at CLE! CAK was(is) all artificial demand due to lower fares than CLE. That's not the case anymore, thanks to Simplifares. CLE is where the real demand is.
 
N766UA
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RE: Chance Of JetBlue Landing At CAK?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:44 am

There's definately demand for CAK, too. Simplifares or not. FL is filling planes and people are coming back for more.
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