Glom
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VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:32 am

I don't mean soon of course. Their accounting will be tied up for a while with the A380. But when their 744s go, they'll only have A346s and A380s. There's quite a gap in between. Since the 747ADV is the only true 744 replacement, wouldn't VS be likely to go for it when the time comes.

They seem to like a quad fleet. All their types are quads. How soon until they give that up or are they likely to stick with it until manufacturers stop offering quads for the aircraft they want (which will happen soon if the A350 is any indication)?
 
United Airline
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:42 am

Possible. They might want to replace their B 747-400s with B 747 Advanced when the B 747-400s are due for replacement.

Earlier they were looking at some B 747-400s at low price. Perhaps Boeing can sell them a few with heavy discounts?
 
mika10021
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:42 am

I doudt they will get it.The have 6 A380s and a lot of A346.The only way I see that happening is if they sell the A380 to Boeing.
 
B742
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:43 am

I think a A380, 747ADV and 346 fleet would be great!

You need a middle man between the 388 and 346, the 747ADV would be a great option providing Boeing launch it?

Rob!
 
Glom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 1):
Earlier they were looking at some B 747-400s at low price. Perhaps Boeing can sell them a few with heavy discounts?

Hmm. Maybe VS could be key to the 744 production line problem that endangers the 747ADV.

Quoting Mika10021 (Reply 2):
.The only way I see that happening is if they sell the A380 to Boeing.

Well as I said, it doesn't have to be soon. I know the acquisition of A380s is dominating things right now, but maybe things will be more likely later on.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
But when their 744s go, they'll only have A346s and A380s. There's quite a gap in between. Since the 747ADV is the only true 744 replacement, wouldn't VS be likely to go for it when the time comes.

They will most likely just use mixed frequencies of A346 and A388 to compensate. They do not require a direct 744 replacement, per say.
 
columba
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
They will most likely just use mixed frequencies of A346 and A388 to compensate. They do not require a direct 744 replacement, per say.

Although I would love to see the 747Adv being launched and getting as much customers as possible I think you are correct.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
dutchjet
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 7:04 am

There is a huge gap between the A346 (and 777) and the A380, and thats what the 747ADV is all about, if Boeing decides to launch it. I am sure that Virgin will take a good look at the 747A; every airline that currently operates the 744 will evaluate the 747A to determine what makes the most sense for its route system.
 
VS747SPUR
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 7:06 am

What do you people think will replace these 747-400 that will go at somepoint ? VS put their poorer aircraft on the LGW routes (i.e not as good entertainment systems etc) and I am pretty certain these LGW based 747s will not be replaced with new planes. Does anyone think they will be replaced by VS's current A346's ?

Many thanks
VS747SPUR
Fly DL
 
United Airline
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 7:19 am

These B 747-400s will not be replaced anytime soon I am sure.

Wonder if they can put the B 747-400 on the LHR-HKG-SYD run once they have more aircraft so that they can solve the overbooking problem on the LHR-HKG

The B 747 Advanced fills in the gap between the A 380 and the A 340-600
 
Lockheed1011
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:30 am

Most likely!

It is the perfect aircraft for VS. Also, Virgin Atlantic always goes for the newest equipment and state of the art fleet.

When the 747ADV comes out, VS will order it!  Smile
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 10):
Also, Virgin Atlantic always goes for the newest equipment and state of the art fleet.

... they passed on the 777-300ER, which by nearly all comparisons applicable to VS, is a superior aircraft to the A346.
 
VS11
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:11 am

VS might get the proposed B747Adv if they get a very good deal on it. VS is very cost sensitive and if the cost is right then everything is possible. But the LGW-based B744s are fairly new - circa 2001, and also some destinations can get the A380, provided the airports are able to handle it. Certainly, MCO can support the A380, traffic-wise that is.
 
United Airline
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:17 am

What's the difference between the LGW based ones and the LHR based ones?
 
VS11
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
What's the difference between the LGW based ones and the LHR based ones?

Configuration, Upper Class seats and entertainment systems. The Premium Economy seats in the LGW B747 are on the upper deck, while in the LHR B747 they are both in the upper deck and lower one as some of the upper deck is used for Upper Class to provide the so called Snooze Zone, which is used for pax that would like to just sleep and not have any meal or drink service.

The new UCS is being introduced in the LGW Boeing fleet. T

The major difference is in the number of seats in the different classes. I forgot the actual numbers but www.v-flyer.com should be able to answer that for you.
 
Glom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
... they passed on the 777-300ER, which by nearly all comparisons applicable to VS, is a superior aircraft to the A346.

As I said, maybe it's because they like quads.
 
PM
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 8:28 pm

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 10):
Also, Virgin Atlantic always goes for the newest equipment and state of the art fleet.

Not really. For most of their life they have flown second-hand 747-100s and -200s. Many (all?) of their A340-300s were second hand too. Their first new planes were their 747-400s. Agreed, since then, they have bought new but that hasn't always been the case. Ten years ago they were still taking old CX and NZ 747-200s.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
... they passed on the 777-300ER, which by nearly all comparisons applicable to VS, is a superior aircraft to the A346.

Evidently they came to a different conclusion having ordered the A340-600 not once but twice.
 
Glom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 8:36 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
Evidently they came to a different conclusion having ordered the A340-600 not once but twice.

Didn't they get their first A346s before the 773ER came out?
 
Planesmart
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 8:38 pm

Don't think B sales team has a lot of time for Virgin, just like some in the finance industry, although with the Singapore connection that may be at there peril. Hard to find tougher negotiators, although Singapore and Emirates are probably a bit better at it.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
They seem to like a quad fleet. All their types are quads

The 773ER would never have worked for this reason - VS advertising slogan

4 engines 4 long haul

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
... they passed on the 777-300ER, which by nearly all comparisons applicable to VS, is a superior aircraft to the A346.



Quoting PM (Reply 16):
Evidently they came to a different conclusion having ordered the A340-600 not once but twice.

Price might have something to do with it.  Wink Yes, the B-777-300ER is a lot better than the A-340-600. But, that really isn't a consideration for some airlines. The bottom line means a lot, esspiecially if you can get big discounts. Then you can afford to buy a lower effecient aircraft. By the time the two operating costs lines intersect, you could have years of operating time.
 
PM
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Tue May 31, 2005 9:02 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 17):
Didn't they get their first A346s before the 773ER came out?

I'm sure you're right. Boeing took their first orders for the 773ER in March 2000. The A346 first flew in 2001 and VS put the first plane into service in, when, 2003? But did VS order the A346 before Boeing had launched the 773ER? I suspect they did. If so, then "they passed on the 773ER" (the original comment to which I was responding) certainly isn't true since it hadn't been launched.
 
pixuk
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (Reply 10):
When the 747ADV comes out, VS will order it!

I doubt it. Virgin are heading for an all-Airbus fleet at LHR, moving all their 747 operations to LGW and MAN. Their LGW and MAN operations are pretty much all Bucket & Spade routes, with higher density configurations than their LHR aircraft. They have little problem filling those seats due to their Virgin Holidays (Virgin Vacations in the US) arm. Once the 747s approach retirement (which is a long way off, since most aren't that old), the natural step would be to move A380s across from Heathrow (and piling in some more economy seats!).

Pete
 
zvezda
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Price might have something to do with it. Wink Yes, the B-777-300ER is a lot better than the A-340-600. But, that really isn't a consideration for some airlines. The bottom line means a lot, esspiecially if you can get big discounts. Then you can afford to buy a lower effecient aircraft. By the time the two operating costs lines intersect, you could have years of operating time.

That's all true, except that it is not the up front price per se that counts, but rather the expected deprecation over the operating life of the aircraft, adjusted for the future value of money. In other words, expected resale value plays into the equation as well as current purchase price.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
But did VS order the A346 before Boeing had launched the 773ER? I suspect they did.

Yes, they ordered the A346 long before the 777LR was launched. They reevaluated both aircraft in 2003 but stayed with the A346.
 
A340600
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting VS747SPUR (Reply 8):
VS put their poorer aircraft on the LGW routes (i.e not as good entertainment systems etc) and I am pretty certain these LGW based 747s will not be replaced with new planes. Does anyone think they will be replaced by VS's current A346's ?

I don't see them replaced for a long time yet. Most of the LGW based 744's were the cancelled AZ order and built in 2001. Plus, as has already been said, VS don't have trouble with loads on these routes, thus updating their IFE etc is not so much of a priority,

Cheers,

Sam Smile
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
birdbrainz
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:45 am

Branson loves to make statements about how Virgin supports the EU and buys Airbus, and BA doesn't. ANY Boeing order undermines this.

Regarding VS and the B777-300ER: There's not enough of an advantage for VS to operate it, and I agree that it destroys their "4 engines 4 long haul" campaign. I wonder if the slogan was coined by Airbus and VS during the their A340 launch to cast public doubt on the 777 and its proponents. The operational success and popularity of large twins prove this slogan is a load of rubbish, and VS is silly to keep it.

How about a new VS slogan: "2 Late 2 Buy Planes With 2 Engines"  Smile
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Glom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 26):
Branson loves to make statements about how Virgin supports the EU and buys Airbus, and BA doesn't. ANY Boeing order undermines this.

So the future will be determined by how well Branson maintains his credibility. Therefore, if Virgin Galactic fails, VS will buy the 747ADV. If it succeeds, VS will remain all Airbus.
 
VS74741R
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
Not really. For most of their life they have flown second-hand 747-100s and -200s. Many (all?) of their A340-300s were second hand too. Their first new planes were their 747-400s. Agreed, since then, they have bought new but that hasn't always been the case. Ten years ago they were still taking old CX and NZ 747-200s.

The reason for most of their aircraft being second hand is that they are a young airline and most airlines that start up use second hand aircraft. Virgin's first new aircraft (747-400s) were put in to operation during 1994, 10 years after they had started operations which I think is quite an achievement.
Also their A340-300s were all new I believe, and if my memory serves me correctly, they were on of the 1st customers for the A340-300 (could have been Air France though) Since they got their new 747s, Virgin have only bought new aircraft, so I don't think you can use this argument.
Obviously a Virgin Atlantic fan!!!
 
Stoney
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
Hmm. Maybe VS could be key to the 744 production line problem that endangers the 747ADV.

How exactly is the 744 production line endangering the 747ADV? I guess the 747ADV would kill the 744 line, but how come the older one can be a threat to the new one?
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
birdbrainz
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 27):
So the future will be determined by how well Branson maintains his credibility. Therefore, if Virgin Galactic fails, VS will buy the 747ADV. If it succeeds, VS will remain all Airbus.

Mr Branson is a businessman first and foremost, so if there's a gain to be made by flying a certain aircraft, be it a 777 or a Cessna 172, he'll do it.

Maybe if Boeing cuts him a deal, he'll put: "2 Cheap 2 Pass Up" on them.  Smile
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Glom
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Stoney (Reply 29):
How exactly is the 744 production line endangering the 747ADV?

It shutting down is the problem. If Boeing can't keep the line open until the 747ADV is ready, it will be very costly and make them thing twice about going ahead with it.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:40 am

BA will order whatever Boeing produces with the prefix 74, they have been pushing boeing for years for a newer version of the JumboJet, if BA orders it, Sir R. Branson would likely order it also...no doubt
Best regards
TRB
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VS11
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
In other words, expected resale value plays into the equation as well as current purchase price.

Virgin does not own aircraft but leases them so they are not really reselling them and thus resale price does not matter. Not to mention that probably any applicable capital gains tax would really be enormous. I believe in the case of the old B747s, Virgin did buy some of them in the end but I may be wrong.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 30):
Mr Branson is a businessman first and foremost, so if there's a gain to be made by flying a certain aircraft, be it a 777 or a Cessna 172, he'll do it.

Absolutely agree.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 30):
Maybe if Boeing cuts him a deal, he'll put: "2 Cheap 2 Pass Up" on them.

In Virgin speak it would be "2 Cost-Saving 2 Pass Up"  Smile

Regards,
VS11
 
zvezda
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:14 pm

Quoting Stoney (Reply 29):
How exactly is the 744 production line endangering the 747ADV? I guess the 747ADV would kill the 744 line, but how come the older one can be a threat to the new one?

The B747Adv would be built on the same line as the B747-400. It would be very costly to put it in mothballs and then restart it.
 
UA747400
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:34 pm

Since the 747Adv would have a longer range than the 747-400 would VS add more locations?
Ghandi- The best way to find yourself, is to lose yourself in the service of others
 
United Airline
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting UA747400 (Reply 35):
Since the 747Adv would have a longer range than the 747-400 would VS add more locations?

Hopefully. Hope to see a VS B 747 in HKG soon
 
PM
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RE: VS For The 747ADV?

Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Price might have something to do with it.

Absolutely. It always does.

Quoting Pixuk (Reply 22):
Virgin are heading for an all-Airbus fleet at LHR

Careful. It's not so long ago that Air Canada was heading for an all-Airbus fleet. Things change!  Smile

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 26):
Branson loves to make statements about how Virgin supports the EU and buys Airbus, and BA doesn't. ANY Boeing order undermines this.

Branson is sly and canny. You don't think he could spin a decision to switch to Boeing and come out smelling sweetly?

Quoting VS74741R (Reply 28):
The reason for most of their aircraft being second hand is that they are a young airline and most airlines that start up use second hand aircraft. Virgin's first new aircraft (747-400s) were put in to operation during 1994, 10 years after they had started operations which I think is quite an achievement. Also their A340-300s were all new I believe, and if my memory serves me correctly, they were on of the 1st customers for the A340-300 (could have been Air France though) Since they got their new 747s, Virgin have only bought new aircraft, so I don't think you can use this argument.

Yes, I know why VS started with used planes and I agree they have long outgrown them but I was just setting the record straight. They haven't always been users only of state-of-the art equipment. And yes, you are quite right - all the A343s were bought new. I stand corrected. I honestly didn't remember them as such an early customer. Most of VS's A343s were originally destined for other airlines but ntu so maybe that's what I was thinking of. But thanks for the correction.

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 32):
BA will order whatever Boeing produces with the prefix 74

Like the 747-300, 747SP, 747-400ER...  Wink

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