MAH4546
Topic Author
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UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 3:58 pm

United Airlines will suspend non-stop O'Hare-Buenos Aires service next week. The suspension is effective 6 June 2005 through 14 December 2005. This is due to the fact that they are having some 763s repossed, and, in short notice, must cut some of the poorer performing routes. They will continue to offer a daily service between Dulles and Buenos Aires, continuing to Montevideo.

Also, don't look for the second daily Dulles-Sao Paulo flight, which is nothing more than a weak attempt to hold unused US-Brazil frequencies, to happen. Those frequencies will probably go into an unallocated pool for AA and others to fight over.

And, yes, UA's ORD-EZE flight is still in many reservation systems and the Star Alliance timetable, but availability is clearly zeroed out in the systems it is still in, and it is no longer in Worldspan.

A final decission on cutting the 2nd daily IAD-GRU flight should come soon. Some rumours also are suggesting that United may make ORD-GRU seasonal and make IAD-GRU a 772, but take it with a grain of salt for now.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 4:15 pm

MAH4546:

Thanks for the breaking news. I am surprised to see the suspension on the route, as last year during the busy Christmas period UA used the B747 full pax ORD-EZE.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
A final decission on cutting the 2nd daily IAD-GRU flight should come soon. Some rumours also are suggesting that United may make ORD-GRU seasonal and make IAD-GRU a 772, but take it with a grain of salt for now

If UA does not materialise the 2 x day IAD-GRU and even further makes ORD-GRU seasonal, in the middle of booming Brazil-US traffic, it will hit hard Star presence in the Brazilian market. RG does not have aircraft to cover any available position, which will make AA/JJ + CO and DL seize the market opportunity/vacuum created by UA's withdrawal.

Rgs,
 
AR1300
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 4:16 pm

Again....They put it, they take it,They put it, they take it,They put it, they take it...

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 5:01 pm

Thanks MAH

But allready mentioned.. UA Short 763s: What's Getting Cut And When? (by Commavia May 30 2005 in Civil Aviation)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FA4UA
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 5:07 pm

MAH4546... do you have a source for this news? I know it's a logicall conclusion, but I can't find anything out there in the news to support it (nor internally at UA).

thanks
FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
hiflyer
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 7:22 pm

They did the same with ORDEZE last summer as well...and yes then ended up upgrading to 744 during xmas. Wall St Journal had it yesterday along with the fact that it was only 4 aircraft leaving the fleet in the near term with negotiations on 4 more continuing. I would suspect the upgrading of the IAD pilot base to include 747 this fall is part of the equation here...looks like enough for 6 aircraft at the begining.
 
latinaviation
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 1):
Thanks for the breaking news. I am surprised to see the suspension on the route, as last year during the busy Christmas period UA used the B747 full pax ORD-EZE.

Hardi- UA hasn't used a 747 to EZE since the late 1990s on MIA-EZE.

Source. This does not appear to be a seasonal cancelation, but a permanent one. From this morning's WSJ:

She said the only route that will be dropped as a result of the latest plane-lease dispute is between Chicago's O'Hare International Airport and Buenos Aires. The Argentine city was going to be phased out from August until December anyway because winter in the Southern Hemisphere is the low season there. She said United will continue to serve Buenos Aires from Washington Dulles International Airport. The other three plane returns won't result in loss of service, she said, because other airplanes will cover those routes.
 
dutchjet
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 10:30 pm

Thanks for the research, this is not a big surprise, with the 763s going, ORD-EZE and the second IAD-GRU flights were favorites to be cut. UA will also shuffle its remaining 763s and any domestic flying of the type is likely to be cut out and replaced with the 752s.......I am curious if ORD-AMS remains in the system and if the IAD-GRU flight is upgraded to a 772 (is an aircraft available?).

With UA cutting South American services, does this:

-open the door for CO to launch its proposed and applied for IAH-EZE route?

-clear the way for AA taking over UA's now unused Brazil frequencies which would allow AA to add flights on the MIA-GIG route (which was cut back to allow more sevice into GRU) or another route to Brazil?

I think that there are more implications here than UA simply losing 5 aircraft....the loss of the 763s may result in UA giving up some valuable route authorities.
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 10:58 pm

American Airlines, Delta Airlines, and Continental Airlines now have more than a valid reason to go after the frequencies that United Airlines is now not going to be using.

In regards to the Buenos Aires to Chicago route authority, it is about time that the Argentine and American governments give United Airlines a stern warn. Do it, or lose it. The Argentine press will if and when the nes comes out will have a field day with United Airlines. Does anyone remember the last time United Airlines pulled Buenos Aires? In Argentina, they were remarking someting to the fact of "The Lost Airline".

It is amazing how one airline can manipulate so many people, in such a short amount of time. My money is on Continental Airlines for IAH-EZE or Delta Airlines for JFK-EZE, and American Airlines ORD-GRU.


Regards - Kahala777
 
Bicoastal
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 pm

United needs to cut aircraft within a week. The second IAD-GRU flight isn't even scheduled to start until October 31. At that time, summer trans-Atlantic capacity will be shifted to South America. They'll be able to do it and reinstate ORD-EZE.

And, United will likely be out of bankruptcy by October with new financing to purchase/lease aircraft. Of course, that's IF United can cut labor and other costs enough to attract bankruptcy exit financing.

[Edited 2005-05-31 16:10:27]
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PHXinterrupted
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:08 pm

Yeah, I just flew this route in early April and I had no problem upgrading with miles, in fact, the UA reservation person said it was one of their easiest routes to upgrade.
Keepin' it real.
 
commavia
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
open the door for CO to launch its proposed and applied for IAH-EZE route

Because UA is only temporarily suspending ORD-EZE for six months (although it is possible that this could become a permanent 'suspension') it remains unclear as to whether UA has to return the route authority and frequencies associated with ORD-EZE into the unallocated US-Argentina pool. If, indeed, that is the case, and UA returns these seven weekly frequencies to the pool, than CO is almost certainly going to be the main benificiary. No doubt, AA and CO will both go after the slots -- CO for IAH-EZE, and AA probably for the third, daylight, MIA-EZE, but of these two CO will definitely win.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
clear the way for AA taking over UA's now unused Brazil frequencies which would allow AA to add flights on the MIA-GIG route (which was cut back to allow more sevice into GRU) or another route to Brazil

Brazil and Argentina are governed by two different bilaterals with the United States and as such UA's pullout of ORD-EZE would not have an effect on AA's efforts to increase frequency on the second MIA-GIG flight.
 
cayman
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:16 pm

Good chance for AC to pick up some STAR customers who would otherwise use ORD EZE, they could now fly AC YYZ EZE.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:16 pm

A coworker of mine worked for UA for seven years until recently, and he told me that IAD-EZE does pretty poorly load wise. That really doesn't surprise me. I suppose they are only keeping it for European connections out of IAD if it is timed as such.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
-clear the way for AA taking over UA's now unused Brazil frequencies which would allow AA to add flights on the MIA-GIG route (which was cut back to allow more sevice into GRU) or another route to Brazil?

If the ORD-EZE and the 2nd IAD-GRU flight are dropped, AA will indeed go after the frequencies.

AA for a daylight MIA-EZE service, but they will be contested heavily by the loser of the current CO/DL EZE compieition.

AA will also probably go for all nine unused US-Brazil frequencies, most likely to increase MIA-GIG once again and to finally start a service to a secondary city, probably Manaus, a few times a week.
a.
 
latinaviation
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Tue May 31, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 13):
A coworker of mine worked for UA for seven years until recently, and he told me that IAD-EZE does pretty poorly load wise. That really doesn't surprise me. I suppose they are only keeping it for European connections out of IAD if it is timed as such.

Load wise, perhaps. But it does ok in F/J. The World Bank, IMF and Inter-American Development Bank are all heavy supporters of the route, as well.
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:41 am

On IAD-GRU, United might just play the DoT game. Leave the plans for a second IAD-GRU on. Then file to postpone the start of service to buy time and keep other airlines from adding service.
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commavia
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
On IAD-GRU, United might just play the DoT game. Leave the plans for a second IAD-GRU on. Then file to postpone the start of service to buy time and keep other airlines from adding service.

That is quite possible, and some would argue that this is what UA is doing with the second IAD-GRU flight anyway. Most agree that UA will probably never be able to fill the plane, in premium cabins or coach, and that it will probably drag down yields for both flights. IMO, UA is just flying IAD-GRU because they have nowhere else to use those frequencies and don't want AA or anyone else to get them.
 
hardiwv
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
On IAD-GRU, United might just play the DoT game

I dont think the DOT will buy UA's game anymore. UA has been playing this game for some time now, and DOT already gave 7 of UA's frequencies to DL (ATL-GIG). I'm sure DOT will give UA's unuse frequencies to AA. As stated above, I predict AA will use the frquencies to operate MIA-GIG and MIA-MAO.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
IMO, UA is just flying IAD-GRU because they have nowhere else to use those frequencies and don't want AA or anyone else to get them.

UA is doing well on both ORD-GRU and IAD-GRU. However, I agree that the 2nd IAD-GRU will undermine yields and loads. UA has a fairly strong pax base in Brazil because of RG's FFs (Star).

Rgs,

[Edited 2005-05-31 17:57:29]
 
Bicoastal
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:57 am

Not fill the planes????!!!

Have you tried to get on a UA flight to Brazil between October and Easter?? They're packed and frequently oversold. Don't know the yields/premium/coach but I do know that they are also packed with cargo down below. United will easily be able to fill the second flight during those months.
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hardiwv
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 19):
Not fill the planes????!!!

Have you tried to get on a UA flight to Brazil

Agree. As I stated above, UA's twice daily services to Brazil (ORD and IAD) are both doing quite well and are in no danger.

Rgs,
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 19):
Have you tried to get on a UA flight to Brazil between October and Easter??

Every airline to Brasil is full during those time periods! It is nothing special!


Regards - Kahala777
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 19):
Have you tried to get on a UA flight to Brazil between October and Easter??

Every airline to Brasil is full during those time periods! It is nothing special!


Regards - Kahala777
 
panamair
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 8):
My money is on Continental Airlines for IAH-EZE or Delta Airlines for JFK-EZE

May not have to be an "or". Depending on whether the suspension is permanent and if the slots go back to the unallocated pool, there could be 14 weekly flights available which would accomodate both CO and DL. AA will certainly try to grab its share as well but stands less of a chance unless it opens up another gateway.
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
I dont think the DOT will buy UA's game anymore.

United can still claim it will fulfill its promise of service even after losing several 767s. There is no way to for the DoT or the other airlines to disprove that intent. Then in October, if the service does not start, they can file an extension for another 90 days. If service does not start, the frequencies may be out for competitive bidding. It could be late 2006 before we see any other airline using those frequencies.
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hardiwv
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
Then in October, if the service does not start, they can file an extension for another 90 days

The DoT has the right not to grant the extension, especially based on UA track record, as the did before in the case they gave UA's positions to DL! An ailrine, i.e. AA or CO, could get UA's positions in late 2005 and start operations in the course of 2006.

Rgs,
 
DLKAPA
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:29 am

Anybody have the tail #'s of the birds that are leaving the fleet today?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
aa777jr
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:36 am

Lost another one...hope this isn't a trend we are starting to see. This is only because they are losing five of the 763 correct?

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
The DoT has the right not to grant the extension, especially based on UA track record, as the did before in the case they gave UA's positions to DL! An ailrine, i.e. AA or CO, could get UA's positions in late 2005 and start operations in the course of 2006.

In that case United didn't have any firm plans to use the frequencies. Delta did. But we seem to be in general agreement that this could drag on for a while, unless United voluntarily states it won't use the frequencies.
They can also start service as scheduled by reducing transatlantic 767 flying over the Winter and postpone the decision of canceling to Spring 06.
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commavia
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 28):
unless United voluntarily states it won't use the frequencies

While this would obviously be better for all involved, most of all consumers, I doubt it will ever happen. UA knows that the instant they release those frequencies back into the unallocated pool, they will be gone. AA wants them for more GIG flights and to secondary Brazilian cities like MAO, REC and SSA, while DL and CO may ask for them to boost flights to GRU and/or GIG. Remember the days when UA actually used all of their US-Brazil frequencies on flights to GRU from ORD, MIA and JFK, and to GIG from MIA.
 
FA4UA
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:41 am

From United:
Minor Schedule Changes Result From Return of
Aircraft to Leaseholders
----------------------------------------------------
As the company had anticipated, the 7th Circuit
Court in Chicago on Friday ruled that a temporary
restraining order on eight planes under negotiation
with a group of aircraft financiers has been
officially cancelled. Accordingly, the company is
in the process of returning four of the planes,
which are B767-300 aircraft, back to the group.

The return of these four aircraft will have a very
limited operational impact on United's schedule and
network. Chicago-Buenos Aires is the only route
that will be suspended, effective June 6 to Buenos
Aires and June 7 to Chicago. The route had
previously been planned for a seasonal suspension of
service from August through mid-December. The
remaining routes affected by the return of these
aircraft are domestic routes, which will be covered
by other aircraft. United will continue to serve
Buenos Aires via Washington Dulles, and we believe
that we will resume Chicago-Buenos Aires service in
December, when we typically adjust for seasonal
fluctuations in demand.

We have contingency plans in place to minimize the
inconvenience to our passengers, and all affected
customers will be contacted with rebooking options.

The company continues to negotiate new leases on the
other four aircraft, and while United hopes to gain
consensual resolution, it is not in the company's
financial interest to pay above-market rates for
these planes.
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
daron4000
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:17 am

Could UA do the 2nd IAD-GRU flight on a seasonal basis where there is enough demand so still be able to hold onto the routes?
 
SLUAviator
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting LatinAviation (Reply 6):
UA hasn't used a 747 to EZE since the late 1990s on MIA-EZE.

As people continue to mention, yes, UA did use a 744 on a ORD-EZE run this winter. A work friend's mom was one of the CS agents for that flight. It was over booked by something like 70+ in coach alone and if I recall in the neighborhood of 20 or more in business. That was truly one of those rare nights when every last passenger booked showed up. They would have never gotten those people out so the only option was to upgrade to a 747.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
I am curious if ORD-AMS remains in the system

I would not count on UA dropping ORD-AMS any time soon. I know 908 often goes out full and 909 comes back full. That does not include the freight they haul both ways as well. If you check in Apollo I bet you will find most days from now till the end of June over sold. I am also willing to bet most days from here till the end of the summer are pretty full and will probably end up over sold.
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:18 am

So, just to clear up all the rumors and get down what's official:

763ERs repossessed: 4
Routes dropped: 1 (ORD-EZE)

Anything else is pure rumor, and for only one route to be dropped after losing 4 aircraft, UA obviously has had a contingency plan in place.

Also, 6 737s were rejected by UA as part of the 14 aircraft up for repo (this was earlier though, not today).
 
chgoflyer
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:27 am

Anyone know who held the note? Who is doing the repo? Boeing or maybe AIG?
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
LipeGIG
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:55 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 31):
Could UA do the 2nd IAD-GRU flight on a seasonal basis where there is enough demand so still be able to hold onto the routes?

It depends on DOT humor. DOT can grant the slots to other airline (such as AA) for a definitive route as second GIG-MIA or a new MIA-REC or even CNF (as MAO has a three weekly service to MIA). None of the airlines operates seasonal flights nowadays (AA only announced will change 2 DFW-GRU weekly frequencies to boost GIG-MIA during nov/apr)

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
latinaviation
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 32):
As people continue to mention, yes, UA did use a 744 on a ORD-EZE run this winter.

I absolutely stand corrected. My apologies. I was under the impression that it had been a scheduled service, not an ad-hoc equipment upgrade due to loads.
 
LVZXV
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RE: UA To Suspend ORD-EZE

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:05 pm

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?