dtwclipper
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United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:05 pm

Op Ed from todays New York Times, see my letter back to the paper below... wonder if it will get published?

United We Stand (in Line)

By DANIEL SQUADRON
Published: June 1, 2005
INTERMINABLE security lines have become a routine part of air travel. The inconvenience seems a small price to pay for increased safety. After all, we tell ourselves, it's a burden all passengers share.

But this isn't quite true. At some of the busiest airports in the country, including ones in New York City, Miami and Los Angeles, passengers with premium-class tickets or upper-level memberships in airline clubs are now able to cut the line.

When they show their boarding passes and identification these passengers are directed into a separate luxury lane to be screened by Transportation Security Administration employees. The person checking boarding passes is often an airline employee. The security screening personnel and equipment are part of the federal agency and are financed in part by a flat fee added to the purchase price of your airline ticket.

The agency exists because in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, Congress no longer trusted the airlines with the critical job of balancing security and convenience. By administering special lanes for airlines' most favored customers, the agency is serving the wrong master. At Los Angeles International Airport for example, Transportation Security Administration representatives say that if an airline requests, the agency will provide a dedicated security checkpoint for its luxury lane, or allow them to escort those passengers to the front of the line while economy class passengers creep along behind them.

It is not unheard of for the government to provide different levels of service based on graduated fees. But there is an enormous difference between a passport office offering say, express processing for an added fee - the surcharge is a legitimate way to maximize both government revenue and quality of service - and the Transportation Security Administration's providing an expedited service that encourages people to increase an airline's profit by buying a more expensive ticket.

President Bush should insist that the agency start treating all the people that it was created to protect equally. The agency should take over boarding pass and identification screening in all airports and move passengers through security lines without regard to ticket class or airline club membership.

Increased security protects us all and the inconvenience it requires is a trial we all must share. No one should be able to buy his way out of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/opinion/01squadron.html

My response in letter form to the New York Times:


Daniel Squadron is way off-base in his understanding of Premium Passengers and their "pass" cards through the elite security lines at America's major airports. In the wake of 9/11 these express lines for the airlines' best customers were put in place to reassure America's road warriors that they would not have to spend hours queuing up with the amateur travelers who have not learned, nor will ever learn, the proper etiquette of airport security. Yes, I rank at the highest level of Northwest Airlines top tier of Frequent Flyers. I pay full fare for those same day round trip tickets, and watch with amazement at the vacationers as they try to get through security; steel-toed boots, ten pound metal belt buckles, lace up shoes, and everything but the kitchen sink in their carry-on bags. Now, look over at the so called elite lines. The professional road warrior working to keep the American economy humming, with his/her loafers, lap top out and ready, nothing that will trip the magnetometer in sight, and never a second screening. This service keeps the high fare paying passenger flying, without it, the airlines would be in even worse (is that possible) trouble then they are now.
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geoffm
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:28 pm

I'll be honest here. You give a very "holier than thou", an "I'm better than those cattle" sort of attitude in your response. You may well be a frequent flyer and I do respect your general a.net posting quality, but I get a very negative reaction to this particular response!

What I couldn't determine was whether the airlines pay more for the premium screening. I guess they do with the "graduated fees" mentioned.

It's a bit like the priority immigration and security you can get at LGW and LHR (Fasttrack) - and have been able to do so for years. Amazing how US aviation seems to be years behind everybody else!

Geoff M.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 1):
I'll be honest here. You give a very "holier than thou", an "I'm better than those cattle" sort of attitude in your response. You may well be a frequent flyer and I do respect your general a.net posting quality, but I get a very negative reaction to this particular response!

Do you really think it isn't true? If people wouldn't bring their entire lives with them on board, things would go a lot faster, and there wouldn't be a need for these "elite" lines.

Secondly, if I am paying 600+ for a R/T same day DTW-CVG flight, I really don't want to get to the airport two hours (circa 4am) earlier to sramble with the kids on their way to Disney World. Look, there are very few perks in air travel these days, and this is one that I would hate to see go.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
geoffm
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do you really think it isn't true? If people wouldn't bring their entire lives with them on board, things would go a lot faster, and there wouldn't be a need for these "elite" lines.

Oh sure, I get pissed off too, when I'm standing there patiently with my shoes already off, keys, coins, phone, and carry-on bags already in the plastic tray while I wait for the people in front to even start considering what they need to do. Mind you, I have jumped the queue (or "cut the line") more than once, just to help speed things up. It can be a little "interesting" to see what the security people think when you do that though...

Geoff M.
 
D950
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:27 pm

While I enjoy the benefits of being a Premier Exec on UA, there is a better way to move things, for sure single travelers, and couples could be sent to "elite" lines. Last Friday, on a very busy day @ LAX, I went through security in less than two minutes, so something is working there, but I see no need for non elite singles, and couples to have to suffer.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
EnviroTO
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:37 pm

I don't support paying your way to the front of the line but do support frequent fliers having a way to move to the front of the line. Probably the by-pass should be handled the same way immigration provides a fast line at airports to holders of an INS Pass where there is a background check. There definitely needs to be a way to speed through frequent fliers that fly frequently enough to know what they need to do at airport security quickly, know the routine, and who are known to be safe.
 
northwestair
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Daniel Squadron is way off-base in his understanding of Premium Passengers and their "pass" cards through the elite security lines at America's major airports. In the wake of 9/11 these express lines for the airlines' best customers were put in place to reassure America's road warriors that they would not have to spend hours queuing up with the amateur travelers who have not learned, nor will ever learn, the proper etiquette of airport security. Yes, I rank at the highest level of Northwest Airlines top tier of Frequent Flyers. I pay full fare for those same day round trip tickets, and watch with amazement at the vacationers as they try to get through security; steel-toed boots, ten pound metal belt buckles, lace up shoes, and everything but the kitchen sink in their carry-on bags. Now, look over at the so called elite lines. The professional road warrior working to keep the American economy humming, with his/her loafers, lap top out and ready, nothing that will trip the magnetometer in sight, and never a second screening. This service keeps the high fare paying passenger flying, without it, the airlines would be in even worse (is that possible) trouble then they are now.

Actually soem of these Business People are the ones that hold up the Security line cause they have the black roller bag plus their Garment bag plus the briefcase and the laptap. So they have all this crap which in turn causes the X-ray Machine belt to back up. When they could of just checked the Garment bag and the Roller bag. I'm gladthat there is no express line in OKCand I refuse to walk someone to the front of the line if theyare an elite member or have a first class ticket. I even get a chuckle when someone tells me that I need to hurry up (when checking them in for flight ) and the boarding pass comes out as a selectee. That's when I say enjoy your flight.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
exFATboy
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:35 pm

I don't have a problem with express lines for high-end passengers, so long as the airlines are reimbursing the government for the full cost of providing the service (less the security fees those passengers pay directly through their ticket, of course.)

Frankly, the NYT writer comes off as whining "well, I can't afford to fly first class so if I have to wait, everyone should." Yes, the rich don't have to wait in line as much as the rest of us do. That's just life.

(Now if the airlines aren't footing the full bill for this service, then he has a point - the rest of us should not subsidize the elite traveler's perk here. But if the airline - a private business - chooses to do so as part of their marketing strategy, I don't see an issue.)
 
ckfred
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:40 pm

Here's a novel idea, but it would only work at major airports, such as JFK, ORD, ATL, SFO, etc.

Have security lanes for people who are only carrying one personal item (purse or briefcase), or security lanes for people with laptops, or security lanes for people with no electronic items (cell phone, pager, Blackberry, PDA, etc.), since those tend to get a second look-see in the x-ray machine, or have lanes that are only for families with children, since they tend to have diaper bags, small wheeled bags, car seats, and strollers.

I'm not opposed to having lanes for people with elite FF status or first-class tickets. These are the people who are keeping the airlines afloat. If the legacy carriers go under, then some of these TSA screeners will be looking for jobs, too.

But TSA needs to come up with solutions to segregate the family of six going to Disney World from the experienced traveler who can't get the 25,000 miles annually to get elite status and can plan trips far enough in advance that he or she never pays full fare.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:48 pm

I gotta say that was an awesome response dtwclipper, and very true. The elite lines move a lot faster not just because they are shorter, but mainly because the people know what the hell they are doing. Nothing pisses me off more than standing in line with someone shocked "Oh, I can't take my gun through security?" or "What, knives are not allowed?" Wink
 
dtwclipper
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 6):
I refuse to walk someone to the front of the line if theyare an elite member or have a first class ticket.

Great attitude dude....I guess you forgot that those elite & F/C passengers pay you and your union dues!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
luv2fly
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 6):
Actually soem of these Business People are the ones that hold up the Security line cause they have the black roller bag plus their Garment bag plus the briefcase and the laptap. So they have all this crap which in turn causes the X-ray Machine belt to back up. When they could of just checked the Garment bag and the Roller bag. I'm gladthat there is no express line in OKCand I refuse to walk someone to the front of the line if theyare an elite member or have a first class ticket. I even get a chuckle when someone tells me that I need to hurry up (when checking them in for flight ) and the boarding pass comes out as a selectee. That's when I say enjoy your flight

I do have to agree with part of this, the road warriers do tend to be the ones hauling the most on the plane with them.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
YYZYYT
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 8):
have lanes that are only for families with children, since they tend to have diaper bags, small wheeled bags, car seats, and strollers

As someone who frequently travels with 2 small children complete with diaper bags and strollers (you forgot car seats), I should mention that we DO have a special lane - we are almost always redirected to the express lane (with the first and business flyers - how is that for ironic).
Sorry for the time it takes to get all of our stuff through, but unfortunately we need it - what's the hurry anyway? We all know what security lines can be like and I'm sure we all leave enough time to line up.  Wink
 
northwestair
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):

Great attitude dude....I guess you forgot that those elite & F/C passengers pay you and your union dues!

Actually alot of the elite members are on restristive tickets these days. I've seen gold members that have the 200 or 300 usd ticket from OKC-EWR. The days of the Business passenger paying the 1300 usd walk up fare is over. Also it doesn't take all that much to become an elite member these days. Just the other day I advs a passenger that he was a silver elite and if avail he could upgrade to first classfor no charge. He couldn't believe it cause he said he had only flown NW a couple of times to Europe this year on cheap tickets.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
northwestair
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 12):

As someone who frequently travels with 2 small children complete with diaper bags and strollers (you forgot car seats), I should mention that we DO have a special lane - we are almost always redirected to the express lane (with the first and business flyers - how is that for ironic).
Sorry for the time it takes to get all of our stuff through, but unfortunately we need it - what's the hurry anyway? We all know what security lines can be like and I'm sure we all leave enough time to line up.

Hey I right there with you on this one. I also travel with my 2 kids 3 yrs and 19 months and my wife. So I to have all the diapers and the portable DVD Player and the bag full of goodies for all of us.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
aa777jr
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:11 am

I guess you forgot that those elite & F/C passengers pay you and your union dues!

HAHA. Lovely. Welcome to the respected list. This is exactly how I feel!  Smile

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 13):
I've seen gold members that have the 200 or 300 usd ticket from OKC-EWR. Also it doesn't take all that much to become an elite member these days. Just the other day I advs a passenger that he was a silver elite and if avail he could upgrade to first classfor no charge

Anyone can become "silver" no big deal, and you should know that. But if you treat your PE pax that way, well I'm just glad my business doesn't take me to OKC.

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 13):
The days of the Business passenger paying the 1300 usd walk up fare is over

I and many people still pay Y, B, and F fares because we need to be as flexible as possible.
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northwestair
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:19 am

DTWCLIPPER

In an Airport our size you already know the platinum Elites on a first name. Plus on the shift I work you normally get the same PE on the same flight every week. I bet when you fly to CVG you probably know 1 or 2 of the agents that are working the gate or the ticket counter. All I am saying is that I don't think agents should walk you to the front of the line if you are an elite member. If the airport doesn't want to have a special line for you then there is nothing I can do about it.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
ahlfors
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:30 am

I'm not against these express lanes as long as someone pays (more) for it. Have say a five or ten dollar charge for the express lane, available to everyone. At check-in, the airlines can then provide vouchers for the service to whomever they want, but for that the airline would have to pay the fee. If someone is flying on a last-minute ticket, and want to get through security fast, this fee will be worth it.

I also must agree that frequent travellers move through more quickly than others. Personally I fly several times a year, and have gotten into the habit of putting all metal objects in my carry-on, and removing my laptop, BEFORE I get to security, so I don't waste time doing it there. A lot of people get to the security line and then start digging through their pockets and what-not for all kinds of metal junk, which takes a lot of time. And then they of course have metal in their shoes which just slows it down even more.
 
flyAUA
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 18):
Have say a five or ten dollar charge for the express lane, available to everyone.

Good idea!!! Except... if anybody could purchase these so-called vouchers, I don't think the express lanes would be very "express" anymore  Wink

I think AMS has attacked this very well with their "privium lanes" (link)

But generally I agree... if you wanna be treated in a special way, pay a special price!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
FlyPIJets
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:52 am

I think the main question is if the express lanes pose a security problem or not. And in a very lateral way, I think they might.

If I am just the average traveler watching a F/C pax zooming to the front of the line, I an likely to grow more impatient with the security process. If enough of us average travelers start complaining to our representatives in congress, then the TSA has to investigate and pour resources into something other than security screening.

Seems like to me, an express line should be for people ready to be screened. Take that person that sits there and checks to see if you have your boarding pass. Move them a little more up stream and if they spot that you have your ID and boarding pass ready, shoes off, laptop out, you get moved to the express lane.

If, on the other hand, you have a roller bag and garment bag, your laptop is still in the a case and you have to search for your ID, then you move to the slow lane.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting the article
President Bush should insist that the agency start treating all the people that it was created to protect equally. The agency should take over boarding pass and identification screening in all airports and move passengers through security lines without regard to ticket class or airline club membership.


It's very simple. Let the airlines pay the TSA for the premium line so there will be no squandering tax payers money.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
luv2fly
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
It's very simple. Let the airlines pay the TSA for the premium line so there will be no squandering tax payers money.

I'll second that one.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ikramerica
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:05 am

Security has nothing to do with hurt feelings and such. I pity anyone who resents a FF flyer in the express lane or resents a First Class passenger for flying first class. Get a life!

As someone who works hard to earn my elite status at CO (since I don't fly enough to be elite on multiple carriers), I am loyal to CO, and I get rewarded. For some jerk who flies once a year on the lowest price fair they can find to get personally offended because I only wait 10 minutes to clear at LAX and not 20, well I can't be concerned with that guy.

But I hear the biggest complaints come from new yorkers because those airports were not designed for security screening really. But visit LAX (at a good terminal like 2,4 or 6, not 1 or 3, or IAH, or TPA, etc., and you won't gripe so much. It is not the elite travelers responsibility for the local airport authority to upgrade their facilities...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:03 am

Flash a SWA Companion Pass at some airports, they let you use the elite line. [the closest Southwest comes to recognizing status]. Now I walk with the ultimate access to elite lines - a pre-boarding stick (cane). Of course, that is elite access that no one wants.

Good piece, nice reply. Totally agree – elites keep the planes flying.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
FlyPIJets
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 24):
Good piece, nice reply. Totally agree – elites keep the planes flying.

Particularly the elites at SWA. I suspect that's why SWA has remained profitable during this current downturn. Elites.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
adh214
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:13 am

I don't see the problem. The airlines control the lines the TSA just does the scanning. If the airline wants to manage the line in a different way that is their business.

Also, as far as resources being squandered, I have never seen a scaning station standing unused waiting for a premium passenger while the regular line is creeping along. Typically, the portion of the line that the airline controls stops at the tables prior to the scanners. Once you get past that point, you can go to any scanner you would like.

Another interesting point, I don't believe AA has premium lines at DFW because they would be just as long as the regular line.

Andrew
 
S12PPL
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Daniel Squadron is way off-base in his understanding of Premium Passengers and their "pass" cards through the elite security lines at America's major airports. In the wake of 9/11 these express lines for the airlines' best customers were put in place to reassure America's road warriors that they would not have to spend hours queuing up with the amateur travelers who have not learned, nor will ever learn, the proper etiquette of airport security. Yes, I rank at the highest level of Northwest Airlines top tier of Frequent Flyers. I pay full fare for those same day round trip tickets, and watch with amazement at the vacationers as they try to get through security; steel-toed boots, ten pound metal belt buckles, lace up shoes, and everything but the kitchen sink in their carry-on bags. Now, look over at the so called elite lines. The professional road warrior working to keep the American economy humming, with his/her loafers, lap top out and ready, nothing that will trip the magnetometer in sight, and never a second screening. This service keeps the high fare paying passenger flying, without it, the airlines would be in even worse (is that possible) trouble then they are now.

My my my. Aren't we a little stuck up?? Listen to yourself. All you can do is sit there and say how much better you are than the rest of us that don't fly the miles you do every year. I have had the fortune of using the special line at the TSA screening area a few times in my life, and while it is a nice luxury to have...I don't think of myself as better than the other travelers as you do. Do us all a favor, and get off your high horse. Stop being so arrogant.

All you are saying is that you deserve better treatment because you payed more than me for your ticket. That family goin to Disney World you speak of? Mom and Dad probably saved for over a year, and spent at least $1,000 bucks just to take the kids on a fun vacation. Does that make you better than them, because you fly more in one year than they will in they're entire lives? Just because you know in advance to take off your belt, and have your shoes ready, with your laptop out? NO, IT DOESN'T!!!

Check your arrogance at the door, and stop complaining. Your attitude twards me and the other people that fly coach all the time sucks.
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
Skymonster
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:20 am

Sad that today many people want to dumb everyone's travel experience down to the lowest common denominator - its the low-fare/socialist mentality really.

Thing is, elites buy tickets on those days when the once-a-year bargain-basement travellers don't want to fly. Elites often buy higher yielding flexible fares. And yes, most elites do know how to get through the screening in one pass and that in itself helps cut down the length of the elite line. Its not about reducing the screening of elites, its about their line moving faster, so there's no security threat. But it gets worse! The elite checkin lines are usually shorter too, even if they've paid low fares. Elites can use lounges even when they've paid the same fare as those who can't get access. Wanna stop that too? Elites are more likely to get a free upgrade than the rest, again even when they've paid the same fare. Terrible isn't it.

Face it, without the elites who fly week in, week out and pay what the airlines demand rather than chose whether or not to travel based on the price, every casual passenger would be paying higher fares. Airlines know this all to well, so they treat the elites well.

So, the solution - instead of getting bent out of shape about others getting preferential treatment, travel more or pay more, and become an elite too!

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
TWFirst
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
I pity anyone who resents a FF flyer in the express lane or resents a First Class passenger for flying first class. Get a life!

Amen!

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
President Bush should insist that the agency start treating all the people that it was created to protect equally. The agency should take over boarding pass and identification screening in all airports and move passengers through security lines without regard to ticket class or airline club membership.

So the TSA can become even more bloated than it is? Please.

I can't believe the NYT would take an editorial stance on this... how trivial. The TSA DOES treat all passengers equally...the screening is exactly the same. If the airlines choose to reduce the security wait time of their best customers as a service to them, why in the hell should the NYT care? Get over it. If the people flying coach once every six months who are bitching about this had to wait in a long security line every day, I think they would get over their pettiness and understand the rationale for elite/first class lines.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
All you are saying is that you deserve better treatment because you payed more than me for your ticket

Yes!

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
Does that make you better than them, because you fly more in one year than they will in they're entire lives?

Yes!

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
Check your arrogance at the door, and stop complaining. Your attitude twards me and the other people that fly coach all the time sucks.

Check your envy at the door my dear!

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 28):
Elites can use lounges even when they've paid the same fare as those who can't get access.

Though we pay a yearly club membership for that.

New WorldClubs Membership Fee

One Year
$450* BASE
$350 Silver
$300 Gold
$250 Platinum

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 28):
Elites often buy higher yielding flexible fares

I never travel on a restricted ticket, how very true.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
dtwclipper
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
That family goin to Disney World you speak of? Mom and Dad probably saved for over a year, and spent at least $1,000 bucks just to take the kids on a fun vacation.

Oh, that family spent $1000 dollars on one trip. Last fiscal year NW received more than $180K from me and my firm. They know it, and know it very well. That's all that counts, not you.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
S12PPL
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 31):
Oh, that family spent $1000 dollars on one trip. Last fiscal year NW received more than $180K from me and my firm. They know it, and know it very well. That's all that counts, not you.

I feel sorry for you, that you have to live with yourself.
How do you do it? You are no better than me, you are no better than anyone on this board for traveling alot. Get a fricken life
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dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 32):
You are no better than me

I never said that, you seem to be a little insecure. My point being, that yes, if I pay 1500,00 for a DTW-SAN R/T or 8K for a WBC seat, I am entitled to better service, and I get it. 'Nuf Said on that.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 32):

I feel sorry for you, that you have to live with yourself.

I don't, I have a wonderful life. Granted being on the road a lot is a pain in the butt, but hard work does have its rewards. Though being home sick today has not been fun.
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S12PPL
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 33):
I never said that, you seem to be a little insecure. My point being, that yes, if I pay 1500,00 for a DTW-SAN R/T or 8K for a WBC seat, I am entitled to better service, and I get it. 'Nuf Said on that.

Yeah, you did.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 30):
Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
Does that make you better than them, because you fly more in one year than they will in they're entire lives?

Yes!

'Nuff said on that.
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AADC10
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:38 am

The sad part is that the extra security does not work. TSA tests have shown that unallowed test items are slipped past security at the same rate as before 9/11/01. The extra standing in line is suppsed to make passengers feel better about security but actually does little, other than delay passengers.

We should just go back to the old, limited security screenings. They were just as (in)effective and made less of a mess at the airport. Like millitary planners always fighting the previous war, the next hijacking or terrorism on aircraft will be completely different than the last one. First it was hostage taking, which led to the metal detectors, then it was bombing, which led to bomb sniffing dogs and explosives detection. The problem with screenings pre 9/11 is that they were mostly concerned about bombs.
 
FlyPIJets
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 33):
never said that, you seem to be a little insecure. My point being, that yes, if I pay 1500,00 for a DTW-SAN R/T or 8K for a WBC seat, I am entitled to better service, and I get it. 'Nuf Said on that.

Except we are talking about security, and, no, you really shouldn't be treated differently than anybody else. Especially since in the U.S. everybody pays the exact same security fee.

Now, if we really want to use the express lane at TSA as an incentive to bolster the airlines bottom line, I propose that express TSA service be limited to pax that hold full fare refundable F/C tickets. That should rule out a lot of the FF low yield riffraff.

After all, business flyers aren't what the use to be and a FF with elite status that came about on low-yield fares ain't really an asset to the airlines.

Of course, maybe with all of the TSA background checking, they could learn who is about to whine the most. Come up with a ranking system. The less likely you are to whine, the more likely you are to get into the express lane.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
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PA110
Posts: 1897
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
Check your arrogance at the door, and stop complaining. Your attitude twards me and the other people that fly coach all the time sucks.

Dude, get a life and move on... your argument is shallow and belies a fundamental lack of understanding of what it is like to travel on business.

As another who travels frequently on business, I'm focused on my work. Since 9/11, the airport and flight are an annoying yet necessary evil that has to be endured in order for me to accomplish my work. Funny, the airline thinks the same way too. Because I generate far more in revenue for the airlines than you and your self-righteous indignance, the airline tries to make my airport experience slightly less of a hassle, and I am appreciative of this. Even business travelers who purchase only the cheapest fares still generate far more revenue than most, because of the frequency with which they travel. A point that you've obviously missed.

Am I led to the front of the line ahead of those already waiting? Absolutely not! Instead, the airline makes a separate line available for those you generate the bulk of revenue for the carrier. I've observed on numerous occaisions the TSA staff directing those waiting for the other lines, to come over and use the priority line if there isn't anyone waiting.

Sadly, UA had a fantastic system at SFO just immediately following 9/11, which fell victim to the TSA's lack of imagination. They had 3 lines. One for elite level frequent flyers, one for passengers traveling with only a single small shoulder bag or briefcase (the fastest line), and the general line for all other passengers. This worked fantastic because the single bag line moved faster than even the elite frequent flyer line and pulled all the day-trippers away from the other lines, and was a built in incentive to check your other bags curbside.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:17 am

Come on! Dtwclipper is right here. Lets face it. The airlines survive because of the high fare paying passangers. The airport exists only because of the airlines. So why can't people who are important to the airlines (as a result important to the airport) get faster screening? And yes, at the airport elites ARE more important then the average once yearly traveller.
 
B744F
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:26 am

Instead of using another line to make insecure people feel good about themselves how about opening that line up to everyone to even out the lines? You already get your special treatment by better service at the gate and on the airplane. Do you want your own special lane and parking garage too? And why would someone be jealous of a traveling door-to-door salesman?
 
bravo7e7
Posts: 1162
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 39):
Do you want your own special lane and parking garage too?

Uhhhhhhh, sounds good!
 
S12PPL
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 37):
Dude, get a life and move on... your argument is shallow and belies a fundamental lack of understanding of what it is like to travel on business.

That would make yours just as bad, then.

Again, you seem to think that because you travel more than me, you are better than me. You aren't. You think that you deserve special treatment because you fly alot, but you don't. Why should I get punished for showing up at the airport an hour and a half before my flight? I do my job when I fly. I take off my belt, I take off my shoes, and I'm always ready when I get to the front of the line. So why am I thrown into your classification of the 'moron' traveler?? I dont' hold up the line when I get to the front. So I only fly four or five times a year on a bussy year right now....How does that make you more important than me??? If I make more money than you, should the IRS process my taxes faster, and give me a refund quicker than you? Should they give me a dedicated department, so my tax returns will be dealt with faster than yours, while your tax return is shoved to the bottom because you only make $50,000 dollars to me $150,000 dollars?

Or for that matter, what if I owned a $70,000 dollar car, while you had a Honda Accord....should I get a special line at the toll booth, while you sat a mile back going half the speed of snot?
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dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 41):
Again, you seem to think that because you travel more than me, you are better than me. You aren't. You think that you deserve special treatment because you fly a lot, but you don't. Why should I get punished for showing up at the airport an hour and a half before my flight? I do my job when I fly. I take off my belt, I take off my shoes, and I'm always ready when I get to the front of the line. So why am I thrown into your classification of the 'moron' traveler?? I dont' hold up the line when I get to the front. So I only fly four or five times a year on a bussy year right now....How does that make you more important than me??? If I make more money than you, should the IRS process my taxes faster, and give me a refund quicker than you? Should they give me a dedicated department, so my tax returns will be dealt with faster than yours, while your tax return is shoved to the bottom because you only make $50,000 dollars to me $150,000 dollars?

Man, you have got some real issues to work through. Nobody is said you where a moron, but you are certainly not able to draw logical conclusions.
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:03 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 18):
I'm not against these express lanes as long as someone pays (more) for it.

in an indirect way, they do..$1,500 business class and 1st class pax pay more in airfare taxes than the $150 cattle class pax pays in airfare tax....that tax revenue goes directly to the govt., which is allowing both to fly from/to the same location (on the same plane)

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
It's very simple. Let the airlines pay the TSA for the premium line so there will be no squandering tax payers money.

that would be good (possibly-but I think in the end, they would have to charge it from their customers)..also, see above..

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
My my my. Aren't we a little stuck up?? Listen to yourself. All you can do is sit there and say how much better you are than the rest of us that don't fly the miles you do every year

your arguments dont' hold too much water.....people who pay more should get a little extra service...they paid for more (and better) quality..and that starts from the time they walk to the ticket counter to the time they pick their luggage up-hence why 1st class/business class/elites FF's have priority and separate check in counters...

I fly about 60K miles/year..and my hard earned money goes to certain air carriers.I expect some extra service for giving some extra business (even if I can find a cheaper flight from a competitor)...simple as that...its called "loyalty"....not "being better" or "stuck up"

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
ll you are saying is that you deserve better treatment because you payed more than me for your ticket.

YES! What part do you not understand?  confused 

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 31):
Oh, that family spent $1000 dollars on one trip. Last fiscal year NW received more than $180K from me and my firm. They know it, and know it very well. That's all that counts, not

thats right, in the end, its all a business..if NW start screwing you around, i'm sure you'll/firm will be more than glad to give $180K to some other air carrier, who would love to have you as their client...!!

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 32):
I feel sorry for you, that you have to live with yourself.
How do you do it? You are no better than me, you are no better than anyone on this board for traveling alot. Get a fricken life

once again..nobody is saying that one is better than the other..but if one is giving extra revenue to a particular air carrier, that air carrier has an obligation to give something in return...

as I said, AA gets A LOT of my hard-earned dollars, which I could easily give to some other air carrier (I'll even pay more, or take a stop-over flight just to fly AA-i.e. a real-world example..I'll fly AA SFO-PHL,which is via ORD/DFW, yet I can do it cheaper and nonstop via UA).....since I go through the hassle of using AA, they appreciate my business, and in return, give me some extra favours which basically doesn't cost them anything.....i.e. emergency exit row seating, checking in @ 1st class check in, etc.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 37):
Because I generate far more in revenue for the airlines than you and your self-righteous indignance, the airline tries to make my airport experience slightly less of a hassle, and I am appreciative of this. Even business travelers who purchase only the cheapest fares still generate far more revenue than most, because of the frequency with which they travel. A point that you've obviously missed.

yup..same thing as I mentioned above.... Wink

Quoting B744F (Reply 39):
Instead of using another line to make insecure people feel good about themselves how about opening that line up to everyone to even out the lines? You already get your special treatment by better service at the gate and on the airplane. Do you want your own special lane and parking garage too? And why would someone be jealous of a traveling door-to-door salesman?

what does the garage have to do with security line at a particular airline? Many united states airports (ok, not all), such as SFO/ORD/JFK/LGA, etc. have a dedicated air carrier terminals, and thats where the higher paying class/elite get extra service by the air carrier..

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 41):
So why am I thrown into your classification of the 'moron' traveler??



Quoting S12PPL (Reply 41):
Or for that matter, what if I owned a $70,000 dollar car, while you had a Honda Accord....should I get a special line at the toll booth, while you sat a mile back going half the speed of snot?

you are COMPLETELY missing the point..you are comparing apples to oranges....

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 42):
Man, you have got some real issues to work through. Nobody is said you where a moron, but you are certainly not able to draw logical conclusions.

I couldn't agree with you more...!!!
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:38 pm

Okay, for you silly people who just don't get it:

1. If you are on vacation, you are not working. If you are not working, an extra 10 minutes, or even extra 1.5 hours will not change your life nor cost you money. If you are on vacation, you can choose to fly at other times, not at the busiest hours. Most airports and airlines will tell you when the worst times to fly are. If you choose not to listen, that is not the fault of the elite flyer. If you choose to fly WN out of LAX and wait three hours to save $25, that also is not the fault of the elite traveler. Those are all choices.

2. If you are on business, every hour you are in the airport on line is one you are not working. If frequent business travelers were forced into such a scenario, it would cost the economy quite a bit of money in lost productivity, and hurt their business and careers personally. Slowing down a vacationer costs the economy little if anything, nor does it cost the vacationer much personally. Business people often do not have the privelage of choosing when to fly. They are told to be here by X and there by Y and fly at those times. Why should they be punished for a situation over which they don't have control?

3. The TSA does not control the line access. The Airport does. They have private security all the way to the point where they point you to the scanning lines. They enter into agreements with carriers to allow various groups into a second line in some, but not all airports. This was true before 9/11 and the policy returned sometime after 9/11, but before the change in the post 9/11 era, when TSA controlled the line too, there was no elite line. There was no favoritism by a government agency then nor is there now. Once you are into one of those lines under the current system, ALL PAX ARE TREATED EQUALLY. To claim otherwise is ignorance.

4. Elite lines are not unfair or evil. While they do allow very frequent and/or full fare passengers through faster, they are also used by disabled, elderly, and very often families with strollers, and in many airports by flightcrews and airport workers. They are there for a subset of passengers and employees, not a better class of people. People who resent other people they don't know for what they have or what they can do are shallow. Happiness in life is not achieved by resenting other people.

That is all.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
geoffm
Posts: 2082
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:58 pm

People look, everybody has valid points to make here. Try to see the argument from both sides of the fence and you'll see.

S12PPL, welcome to my respected users list as you seem to be the only one who has kept a fairly level head in this while others haven't necessarily done so.

Geoff M.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):

My my my. Aren't we a little stuck up??



Quoting S12PPL (Reply 27):
Your attitude twards me and the other people that fly coach all the time sucks.



Quoting S12PPL (Reply 32):
I feel sorry for you, that you have to live with yourself.
How do you do it? You are no better than me, you are no better than anyone on this board for traveling alot. Get a fricken life



Quoting Geoffm (Reply 45):
S12PPL, welcome to my respected users list as you seem to be the only one who has kept a fairly level head in this while others haven't necessarily done so.

a level head in all of this?  confused  It seems as if Dtwclipper and Ikramerica are the ones who understand the situation
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 30):
Quoting Skymonster (Reply 28):
Elites can use lounges even when they've paid the same fare as those who can't get access.

Though we pay a yearly club membership for that.

Or in the case of non-US carriers, we paid for the elite status by flying, which is the same thing...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:46 am

RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 8):
But TSA needs to come up with solutions to segregate the family of six going to Disney World from the experienced traveler who can't get the 25,000 miles annually to get elite status and can plan trips far enough in advance that he or she never pays full fare.

Here Here! I agree 100%...I actually just joined DL's FF program yesterday...I book far in advance and I know there is no way that I'll get the miles needed anytime soon. However, I'm an expret at the security. I know exactly what to do....but I don't complain about the delay (and at FLL there is oftentimes a LONG delay!) and I just take it in stride and know that I'll get through fine even if John Doe with his baby tripplets traveling home to see grandma may not know all the security regulations.
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deltairlines
Posts: 6875
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RE: United We Stand (in Line)

Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:24 am

I see nothing wrong with your letter DTWclipper. In fact, I agree with it.

I too am an elite, and I do enjoy the perks I get with it. Whether that means I get to use a special line at check-in (if I'm actually checking bags, that one or two times a year), using an express security line (so I can get to the airport at 530 for a 6 am flight, which means I can get an extra few minutes of sleep), pre-boarding (so I can get my overhead space), etc. I choose to stay loyal to Delta, and I too get rewards for that. I fly on a mix of tickets, in that past year, I've flown on unrestricted walk up tickets 25% of the time (including a few full fare First Class tickets), discounted (Delta H/Q/K class) tickets a good percentage of the time, and deep-discount tickets (L/U/T) on a few other occasions (when I have plans months in advance on a slow travel day). I could easily take the cheapest airline out there, but I don't - over the past year, I've spent maybe an extra $1000 just to fly Delta instead of a Southwest or United.

As for people not knowing what to do, I see it all the time, especially at GSO, where there is no elite security line (even though there are enough US and DL elites to make it work...). People with laptops wait until they are to the checkpoint, they take all their stuff out right there instead of while in line, wear shoes that undoubtedly set the detector off...it all gets irritating when theres 10 people in front of you who don't know what they're doing. In all my times travelling since 9/11, I have only tripped the metal detector once - on my first trip through after 9/11 - since then, I'm batting 1.000.

Jeff