padcrasher
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Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:48 am

According to DOT data Delta has a 59% passenger share compared to Southwest's 30% share in the BDL-MCO market. Additionally Southwest's average fare is 92% of Delta's amount.

In the BDL-TPA market Delta has a 64% market share compared to Southwest's 27%. Southwest's average fare is 98% of Delta's average fare.

This despite the fact that Southwest has around a 69% share of the non-stop seats.

Connecting and thru service would obviously effect these numbers but on the face of it seems like Southwest is getting embarrassed. That's 47% and 41% of Delta's revenue despite have 69% of the non-stop service.

Can anbody add to this? Maybe I'm missing something?
 
goingboeing
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:50 am

What's Song's profit? Case closed.
 
ACAfan
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:56 am

I thought the SONG 757 has a lower CASM than the WN 737 ?
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:59 am

Well summarized Goeingboeing!
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 1):
What's Song's profit? Case closed.

You post as you know, please share. I think you are confusing a single subsidiary with it's large parent corporation.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:05 am

I would think WN still has a lower CASM in this particular market but nothing to the extent that it would make up for that kind of revenue gap.
 
AA7573E
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:06 am

Goingboeing, you are missing the point.

The road to building profitability is paved through the acquisition of market share. Many had written Song off as a failed endeavor before they even took to the air. The fact that they control several head to head markets with WN is quite impressive, and shows traction for the product. It would be a safe extrapolation that market share growth is occurring in other segments as well.

As to the profits, Song is not a company, but rather a division of Delta, and as such they do not report a separate P and L statement. Regardless of the fact that the overall company is not doing well, it is obvious that Song is in fact doing well, and beating WN in key markets.

Turn the question around though, and show me a double digit market gain by WN in a market dominated by Delta. Case closed.
See you up front!
 
Leskova
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Thread starter):
Can anbody add to this? Maybe I'm missing something?

What am I missing here? If I understand your post correctly, this is about exactly two routes - BDL-MCO and BDL-TPA - don't you think that an embarrassment would require a bit more than just two routes?

Are these the only two routes on which these two compete? If not, how does the picture look accross the board?

If the situation is that way on all routes where both compete - or at least on a majority of the routes, that's when you could say that DL/Song is beating WN... but two routes?

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Are these the only two routes on which these two compete?

Pretty much.

FLL-BDL would be the only other route, but knowing FLL and BDL that would have been even more lopsided. (The data was not available since WN has not been in this market long )
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:20 am

My, my, aren't Delta and network partisans sensitive about Song's numbers! So what if Song is a "division?" It's a product of its own with a distinct identity competing in a specific market segment. If Song contributes so much value to the Delta brand overall, Delta should be happy to tell their shareholders and the world how profitable *the Song unit* is. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It would be funny if Southwest is getting better yields off that 92 percent fare, but of course we'll never know.

Delta has been the largest carrier in Hartford, a business-heavy medium-size market where FF miles and connections matter a lot, for years. No one should be surprised that Song would get very good market share there.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
flyAUA
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):

For both Song's and Southwest's sake I hope they do not compete against eachother on too many routes. LCCs should know better and stay out of each other's way. Competition between 2 LCCs can get very filthy Big grin
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
The road to building profitability is paved through the acquisition of market share

It's a double-edged sword: it can easily be the road to low yields and bankruptcy.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
Turn the question around though, and show me a double digit market gain by WN in a market dominated by Delta.

WN makes a point not to chace market share for the sake of market share. They find routes that will support a minimum amount of traffic for the route to break even, and every seat after that is icing on the cake. That's how they've become the largest domestic airline in the U.S.

Here's the jist of this thread: WN isn't dominant in every single market they fly. Excellent observation, Captain Obvious  scratchchin 
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 1):
What's Song's profit? Case closed.

I love it!

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
The road to building profitability is paved through the acquisition of market share.

As long as that market share is profitable.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
What am I missing here?

Frank –

Padcrasher hates SWA and other LCCs like AirTran (although I think she'd love FL because they are the only major domestic carrier that pays 5% commission on every published fare to travel agents, but that’s a moot point and off-topic).
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Thread starter):
WN isn't dominant in every single market they fly. Excellent observation, Captain Obvious

No that's where you're wrong. I went back over these routes when Delta Express was in these markets and not only did it look like WN had just as high a load factor, they had higher average fares.

This is a blow out.
 
positiverate
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:26 am

Going Boeing, do you have some insight on Song's revenues that you care to share?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Two routes are indicitive of nothing.

I can only hope the decision makers at Southwest share your bravado..LOL

Carry on, don't worry about two little markets that might just be a taste of what you have in store.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Yes Padcrasher... you've uncovered the scandal of WN, contact the Washington Post in a dark parking lot and you can be Deep Throat II. Keep that weedwacker of a brain going and try to extrapolate WN's mysterious profitability.

And who says there is no God! Priceless!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Two routes are indicitive of nothing

She is just pointing out two routes, but more and more of these examples are popping up around WN's system. Their profit continues to drop and the most recent profit was on the coat tails of a smart fuel hedging effort. I highly doubt WN said a year ago that the only way they make a profit this year was because of hedging fuel.
I agree they have a great business model, but as the industry continues to deal with too much capacity market share is important. If you are going to compete on a route with a bunch of competitors you better be beating those competitors.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
2. WN sells more full-fare, non-discounted tickets than just about any other domestic airline.

True, but those full fares on average are their $79 FLL-MCO, or $79 OAK-SNA fares, not the $249 BDL-LAX fare.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Yes Padcrasher... you've uncovered the scandal of WN, contact the Washington Post in a dark parking lot

 hyper  Lol!

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 18):
True, but those full fares on average are their $79 FLL-MCO, or $79 OAK-SNA fares, not the $249 BDL-LAX fare.

Those fares are more likely around the $90-$100 mark, as are most SWA short hops
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 19):
Those fares are more likely around the $90-$100 mark, as are most SWA short hops

Yeah I was just going off of memory. Full fare MCO-FLL is $83, Full fare SNA-OAK is $103 and Full Fare BDL-LAX is $299.
The point was to show WN's full-fare and that a majority of the full-fares are purchased on short hops.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:20 am

She is just pointing out two routes, but more and more of these examples are popping up around WN's system. Their profit continues to drop and the most recent profit was on the coat tails of a smart fuel hedging effort. I highly doubt WN said a year ago that the only way they make a profit this year was because of hedging fuel.

Which routes in particular? There may be other examples, but I don't have time to do number-hunting right now.

Of course, fuel was substantially less expensive in early 2004, so it's unlikely that WN would have said that good fuel-cost management was as important then as it is now.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
beauing
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
Turn the question around though, and show me a double digit market gain by WN in a market dominated by Delta

How much of Song's market gain came at the expense of Delta?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Thread starter):
In the BDL-TPA market Delta has a 64% market share compared to Southwest's 27%. Southwest's average fare is 98% of Delta's average fare.

This despite the fact that Southwest has around a 69% share of the non-stop seats.

I think your information is a little erroneous.

WN flies BDL-TPA 2x daily using 737's thats about 260 seats each way daily.
DL flies BDL-TPA 2x daily using Song 757's that's 398 seats each way daily.

So how does WN have 69% of the nonstop seats?
 
PVD757
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:21 am

MCO-BDL (3rd quarter 2004):

DL Song 3x daily 757 (199 seats each) or 597 seats each way
WN 2x daily 73G (137 seats each) or 274 seats each way

DL has 68.54% of the capacity
WN has 31.46% of the capacity

3Q04 DOT data shows that:

The MCO-BDL market sees an average of 1000 pax a day total (500 each way).

DL has a 58.71% market share (a little below the % of capacity) at an average fare of $111.49 (total revenue of $65,444 per day). That averages out to $54.81 per available seat of revenue (65444 divided by 1194 seats).

WN has 30.21% of the market share (just below % of capacity) at $102.87 (total revenue of $31,066 per day). That averages out to $56.68 per available seat.

Looks like WN is earning more revenue (at less cost to the consumer) per available seat in the market (more than $2.00 per seat in fact). Never mind the cost side of the equation where Song is at best the same as WN. DL has more market share because they are offering many more seats, and that's about it! DL's average load factor (assuming no one connects to MCO - which isn't the case) is 49.16% (587 divide by 1194). WN's is 55.11% (302 divided by 548), despite having less frequency to choose from!

Please do the math before making claims, because you can rest assured I will if I think your wrong!

WN WINS!!!

Oh wait, but DL has more market share, WN should pull out of BDL immediately!

Oh yeah, take a look at the PVD-MCO market where DL had DL Express through the summer of 2003. Look what WN did there - DL ran with their tales between their legs (this is despite the fact that I am hoping for a return to the market by DL either with Song or the 170's, but that's another thread)!

[Edited 2005-06-01 21:31:52]
 
PVD757
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:59 am

BDL-TPA (773 average daily pax):

DL:

market share: 64.43%
seat capacity: 74.39%
2x daily 757 398 seats each way/796 total seats/day
average fare: $104.15
average revenue per day: $51,866
average revenue per available seat: $65.16

notes: like MCO DL offers more seat capacity than market share

WN:

market share: 26.64%
seat capacity: 25.61%
1x daily 73G 137 seats each way/274 total seats/day
average fare: $102.28
average revenue per day: $21,069
average revenue per available seat: $76.89

notes: like MCO, WN offers less seats than it's market share and really blows DL out of the water with the average revenue per available seat ($11.00 plus).

Again, WN wins - so do the BDL passengers and WN's stockholders...
 
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mariner
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
The road to building profitability is paved through the acquisition of market share.

What is so alarming about that statement is that so many people running airlines still believe it.

It is the Rono Dutta School of Airline Management - market share trumps profitablity - and look where Rono Dutta is now.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
nonrevman
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:17 am

Before the rest of my post is made, a short disclaimer:

I am not here to bash Southwest Airlines or their business model. It obviously works for many people, therefore they have profited greatly on these routes

When choosing one of these carriers, assuming that fares are similar, I would choose Song. I simply would prefer to have assigned seating, especially on a route that enjoys a high load factor. Call me crazy, I would rather not stay up until midnight and compete with others who have just logged in to get in the "A" group, nor do I wish to get to the airport early to secure a place in line to get the "A" or "B" group certainty. Yes, I realize that there could be equipment changes or some other risk of having my seat assignment changed (or voided), yet most of the time, the seat I request is the seat I get. It is nice to be able to go to a kiosk, get a boarding pass, and not have anywhere in particular I have to be until the flight is boarding. No unnecessary standing in line. Enough said. Before the defenders of WN arrive to tell me the "benefits" of open seating, realize that this is just my preference and one opinion.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 4):
You post as you know, please share. I think you are confusing a single subsidiary with it's large parent corporation.

Unless and until Delta breaks out the numbers of Song, and as long as the parent company is experiencing huge losses, then it doesn't matter...if Delta goes under, so does Song.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
As to the profits, Song is not a company, but rather a division of Delta, and as such they do not report a separate P and L statement. Regardless of the fact that the overall company is not doing well, it is obvious that Song is in fact doing well, and beating WN in key markets.

As DCA-ROCguy pointed out, if Song is such a moneymaker, why wouldn't the parent airline spread the word to the world? Better yet, why hasn't the parent company become more "song-like"? I'm sure that THEY have the real numbers - why not show the world it's profitable?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):
Going Boeing, do you have some insight on Song's revenues that you care to share?

The only people who have those numbers are Delta's managment...and they ain't sharing them. As I said...unless and until they do...and as long as the parent company experiences huge quarterly losses, then the profits of Song, if any, are moot.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
The road to building profitability is paved through the acquisition of market share. Many had written Song off as a failed endeavor before they even took to the air. The fact that they control several head to head markets with WN is quite impressive, and shows traction for the product. It would be a safe extrapolation that market share growth is occurring in other segments as well.

And I've said before and I'll say it again...Southwest would rather be number 2 in market share and making a profit than number 1 in market share while bleeding losses.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:38 am

Is that your final answer pvd757?

You are saying that DL averaged 3 departures over the Quarter versus 2 by Southwest?
 
PVD757
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Nonrevman (Reply 27):
Before the defenders of WN arrive to tell me the "benefits" of open seating, realize that this is just my preference and one opinion.

With all due respect, I hate the open seating deal too. I also love the 757 and IFE, but the thread is about market specifics, not whether or not one chooses which carrier and why. If profits were earned on who has more amenities, then DL/SONG would be win in this case, but we all know it's quite the opposite. Numbers don't lie and DL isn't winning...
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:45 am

Only 1 daily TPA departure during the Quarter?
 
ScottB
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:00 am

Padcrasher-

Yes, in the 3rd quarter of 2004 (the quarter for which your DOT numbers apply), Southwest operated two daily round-trips from BDL to MCO and one daily round-trip from BDL to TPA. The third daily BDL-MCO was added in October, 2004, while the second daily TPA frequency was added in February of this year. Song's schedule was similar to the current schedule in the third quarter of last year.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
Delta has been the largest carrier in Hartford, a business-heavy medium-size market where FF miles and connections matter a lot, for years. No one should be surprised that Song would get very good market share there.

I concur. There is a lot of that brand mentality and loyalty at work. After all, (according to an interview with Herb K) WN planes flew with about 5 people on board them out of Love Field for a few years when they were first getting started; and DL had a major presence in DFW at that time. Now look where they are respectively.

Song and WN will not be decided perhaps for another couple of years yet.
One Nation Under God
 
PVD757
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 29):
Is that your final answer pvd757?

You are saying that DL averaged 3 departures over the Quarter versus 2 by Southwest?



Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 31):
Only 1 daily TPA departure during the Quarter

Thanks ScottB.

Yes and no Padcrasher. They had 2 daily roundtrip flights between MCO and BDL versus DL's 3 daily roundtrip flights during the 3rd Quarter 2004.

TPA-BDL was 1 for WN and 2 for DL.

What seems to be the problem, besides the fact that I exposed your lack of research before making an unsubstantiated claim?

and again, I have nothing against either airline.

[Edited 2005-06-01 23:19:49]
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 8):
FLL-BDL would be the only other route, but knowing FLL and BDL that would have been even more lopsided. (The data was not available since WN has not been in this market long )

Yes, but FLL-BDL is a n/s for Song and has stops for WN. If WN offered a n/s it would have more competition than MCO and TPA. (as 2 song N/s would equal 1 DL N/s meaning they could do 4 N/s and be about equal)


I'll choose WN because they will be cheaper for the holiday travel season (song is already the most expensive for Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays at over $200 o/w!)

Note that WN and DL are the same price otherwise, even with the stop. If it is not the holiday time, I'd take DL hands down. In fact I'm doing so tomorrow Big grin
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:35 am

You're actually incorrect. Song was on a reduced schedule during this time. And WN did have 2 flights on certain days.

But you're no more guilty of bad research than I am. The actual capacity for the Q tracks along with the revenue. What advantage Song has is only from the small yield premium. Thanks for the push back.

I my defense I did say "what am I missing here?"
 
N77014
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Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:53 am

Really insignificant news. These are leisure markets from cities that DL has been in for longer than WN has been in business.

I'm beginning to feel WN isn't even the main threat to DL anymore. What Jetblue has done to them in the NYC-Florida market is more important.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting Nonrevman (Reply 27):
When choosing one of these carriers, assuming that fares are similar, I would choose Song. I simply would prefer to have assigned seating

Agreed. I will only deal with Southwest and Southwest's travelers if the price is about 1/3 of any other airline in the same market.
Stop pop up ads
 
jetblueatjfk
Posts: 1556
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RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
What am I missing here? If I understand your post correctly, this is about exactly two routes - BDL-MCO and BDL-TPA - don't you think that an embarrassment would require a bit more than just two routes?

Are these the only two routes on which these two compete? If not, how does the picture look accross the board?

If the situation is that way on all routes where both compete - or at least on a majority of the routes, that's when you could say that DL/Song is beating WN... but two routes?

Yes! It is 2 routes, get over it

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 1):
What's Song's profit? Case closed.

LOL, like said above if they were great why don't they release them or try to more like them

Quoting Nonrevman (Reply 27):
When choosing one of these carriers, assuming that fares are similar, I would choose Song. I simply would prefer to have assigned seating, especially on a route that enjoys a high load factor. Call me crazy, I would rather not stay up until midnight and compete with others who have just logged in to get in the "A" group, nor do I wish to get to the airport early to secure a place in line to get the "A" or "B" group certainty. Yes, I realize that there could be equipment changes or some other risk of having my seat assignment changed (or voided), yet most of the time, the seat I request is the seat I get. It is nice to be able to go to a kiosk, get a boarding pass, and not have anywhere in particular I have to be until the flight is boarding. No unnecessary standing in line. Enough said. Before the defenders of WN arrive to tell me the "benefits" of open seating, realize that this is just my preference and one opinion.

Ok but we are not talking about the seating options of airlines

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 28):
Quoting AA7573E (Reply 6):
As to the profits, Song is not a company, but rather a division of Delta, and as such they do not report a separate P and L statement. Regardless of the fact that the overall company is not doing well, it is obvious that Song is in fact doing well, and beating WN in key markets.

As DCA-ROCguy pointed out, if Song is such a moneymaker, why wouldn't the parent airline spread the word to the world? Better yet, why hasn't the parent company become more "song-like"? I'm sure that THEY have the real numbers - why not show the world it's profitable?

Yes! Like I said above


This is 2 routes people and WN is winning in the end so again, just give up.

Quoting N77014 (Reply 37):
I'm beginning to feel WN isn't even the main threat to DL anymore. What Jetblue has done to them in the NYC-Florida market is more important.

Yes, they damaged DL bad but they brought fares down which is nice (I remember looking at DL fares on NYC-Florida pre-jetBlue and alot of them were not $59-$102). So DL put out Song to compete with them. So the real fight is Song vs. B6 , Padcrasher is just trying to make it look like Song is so great it is beating all the others, no that is wrong.

SO the part you are missing is no Song is not beating WN, closed!

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:20 am

Some posters seem to be missing the point. On a couple of routes where Song and Southwest go head to head, Song is leading. This is easy to believe because if I had a choice between Song and Southwest and Song is about the same or slightly higher, I would take Song. Song has assigned seating, larger bins, and IFE.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 40):
if I had a choice between Song and Southwest and Song is about the same or slightly higher, I would take Song. Song has assigned seating, larger bins, and IFE.

I am sure just about everyone in this thread would choose Song as well.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 38):
Agreed. I will only deal with Southwest and Southwest's travelers if the price is about 1/3 of any other airline in the same market.

And you have no idea how thankful this Southwest traveller is for that.
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 39):
Ok but we are not talking about the seating options of airlines

We are talking about two airlines going head to head on certain routes and that topic could naturally include differences that these two carriers have. One of the differences is the seating policy, therefore I have appropriately posted such. Sure, it is not the entire big picture to who has capture what market share, but I think it is a valid piece of the puzzle and certainly above the need for a nitpick post. I guess the point I am trying to get across--sorry for not making this clear--is that both carriers will attract certain types of customers due to their differences in fare, seating policies, service, frequency, etc. This will factor into route profitablity and market share, which I believe is the subject of this post.
 
jetstar
Posts: 1366
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:19 am

Maybe Song is ahead of WN in some markets they compete head to head, but is DL making money on these routes. Just look at WN’s seat mile costs and Song’s, which is not much lower the DL mainline. WN makes money on their routes or they pull out. I am sure that Song is at best breaking even, which is better than most of DL’s routes. The bottom line is WN is making money by the bucket full and Delta is losing money the same way.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 41):
I am sure just about everyone in this thread would choose Song as well.

 no 

Uber, cult-like, brand-loyalty here.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:45 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 1):
What's Song's profit? Case closed.



Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 4):
You post as you know, please share. I think you are confusing a single subsidiary with it's large parent corporation.

Apparently the large parent Corporation is recording billion-dollar losses per quarter quite consistantly of recent? Maybe that's an small indication? Delta is in such a big mess that a small success can't cover it.

I'd put my money on Southwest for the sake of survival!!
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 39):
Yes, they damaged DL bad but they brought fares down which is nice (I remember looking at DL fares on NYC-Florida pre-jetBlue and alot of them were not $59-$102). So DL put out Song to compete with them. So the real fight is Song vs. B6 , Padcrasher is just trying to make it look like Song is so great it is beating all the others, no that is wrong.

I don't know what fares you were looking at, but it wasn't Delta's. Keep in mind that Delta Express was around while Neeleman was still having to suck up his non-compete clause with WN. DLX fares were Southwest type fares because the pilots could be paid less than mainline(until contract 2000, which made DLX unprofitable). Fares on DLX between Florida and the Northeast were in place to keep out or minimize the presence of any LCC's, which is why DLX was flying 732's with all coach seating. So I don't know who's fares you were looking at or when, but it certainly wasn't while DLX was in town.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:30 pm

One must remember that without WN, there would be no song. There would be no need for an airline like DL to become more efficient. The fares would be high.

Many of us would choose Song, but remember that without WN there would be no Song.

Song was created out of nessescity to compete with WN and other LCC's.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:38 pm

I for one would not choose Song most of the time over Southwest, were I to fly a route with that choice. I give most of my business to the reformers. Indeed without WN, B6, et. al., there would be no Song.

This is not a criticism of Song's product, which I've pretty consistently heard to be very good. If the circumstances called for it I'd happily fly them. It's just a point of personal principle to give most of my business to LCC's.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Song V Southwest : We Have A Winner?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 39):
So the real fight is Song vs. B6

Let us know when B6 puts on the boxing gloves and ventures into BDL.

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 39):
Padcrasher is just trying to make it look like Song is so great it is beating all the others, no that is wrong

Song, like B6, competes with all carriers in their respected markets. Song is not competing with B6 in BDL because they don't fly there. However Song is competing directly with WN as well as UA, US, DH, and CO. You can't sit here and say that Song isn't beating the competition on BDL-Florida routes because numbers ^above^ prove otherwise.

Quoting Midway2AirTran (Reply 46):
Delta is in such a big mess that a small success can't cover it.

You aren't it doesn't cover it, but it shows signs of life. Song is a lower cost unit of DL and because of the lower cost they can start routes like BDL-LAX, BOS-SFO where DL wouldn't have otherwise.

Quoting Midway2AirTran (Reply 46):
I'd put my money on Southwest for the sake of survival!!

This isn't a fight to the death. Both can co-exist. She was just pointing out that on this market where the two airlines go head to head DL/Song is out performing their competition.

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 44):
Just look at WN’s seat mile costs and Song’s, which is not much lower the DL mainline.

It is easy to see WN's, but you have no idea what Song's is so don't proclaim that you do. For all you know it could be identical with WN; either way no matter what you are assuming.

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 35):
I'll choose WN because they will be cheaper for the holiday travel season (song is already the most expensive for Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays at over $200 o/w!)

Note that WN and DL are the same price otherwise, even with the stop

This has to do with revenue management. DL knows it will sell all seats during the holidays (as do all airlines), so they aren't going to open up the lowest fare classes 6 months out. Otherwise the fare structure of WN and Song are identical. Song has the advantage of selling 60 more lower priced seats. If a traveler making a choice of airlines chooses WN over Song based on price it is because the Song flight is nearly sold out.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.

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