NYC777
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Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:09 am

I guess they are attempting to grow some balls after all the defeats that they've been handed. Doubt that this one will be overturned as well. Boy what a bunch of cry babies!  cry   hissyfit 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1128480.cms
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commavia
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:13 am

They really need to let this go already. This isn't the way to do business.
 
airtran737
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:21 am

Jesus let it go already. You lost the order. Move on, stop bitching and try to win the next one. Babies.  crying   hissyfit 


I'd say the the same thing if Boeing was pulling this crap
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B742
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Boy what a bunch of cry babies!

Well said, Boeing have clearly won the order so move on Airbus!!!!  banghead 

Rob!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:26 am

Give me a break. Airbus has the argument: 'all our planes are better so anyone choosing a boeing must be doing it for other reasons.' There is no way anyone could choose the 738 over the A320, or the 739 over the A321, or the 73G over the A319, according to A.

That is a stupid argument based on pride, not reality. I guess all the other 73x carriers are throwing money away too. We all know how businesses love to throw money away for fun. Somehow WN and B6 both do well despite competing planes. And WN uses those 73Gs on many of the same kind of routes AI Express will use the 738.

Airbus has the air of a desperate company all of a sudden. It's gone from confident to cocky to fearful in the span of one year.

edit: fixed typo on WN models.

[Edited 2005-06-01 21:27:43]
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flyAUA
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:30 am

The Airbus communication highlights how the airline started off by evaluating Boeing B737-900 and Airbus A321 for selecting 160-seater aircraft. The A321 was seen as a clear winner in this category... However, A-I decided to go in for B737-800 with 189 seats, far more than what the first configuration envisaged...A-I subsequently started a new evaluation calling bids for aircraft with 150 seats and more and the race was between the A320 and B737-800. While the A320 would have won on a cost-based analysis, the airline chose to place emphasis on additional seats of the B737-800.

I can see why Airbus is not letting go  sarcastic 

Looks like the airline doesn't know what they want themselves!!

But yes it's getting embarrassing, I agree  embarrassed 
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clickhappy
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:36 am

The A321 was seen as a clear winner in this category (small capacity short range or SCSR) in terms of profitability, performance and overall specifications...

Those LCC's are just flocking to the A321, aren't they?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 5):
While the A320 would have won on a cost-based analysis, the airline chose to place emphasis on additional seats of the B737-800.

Is that not a legitimit reason for AI-Express to choose the 738? It's a bigger airplane by several seat-rows, and if that gives them their jollies, what are you gonna do about it?  Confused
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:40 am

I think that Airbus managers are quite some guys, especially when they sepak in the public. I remember April 27th for the A380s first flight, As CEO Noel Foreard was saying some words to the press like "bullshit" or whatever when talking about B.
Though I prefer Airbus, I have to agree that this story is annoying, and that they'd better be concentrating for the Paris airshow and towards their future potential orders rather that making fools of themselves....
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Danny
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:42 am

Airbus has a point. When you ask for an aircraft with 160 seats then you select one with 189 seats then the whole deal stinks especially if the government is so heavily involved.

Although I don't think they should raise it now as the governments never admit to anything so there is no way this deal will be overturned.
 
SA7700
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:44 am

I never like to get involved in A vs B threads, but for heavens sake, IMMHO Airbus is really humiliating itself in the business community.

If a client does not want to make use of my products or services, the last thing on my mind is going to be to yap like a freaking dog on heat at the client.

Yeez guys have some pride and keep on going to win over other potential clients. You win some you lose some.

Rgds

SA7700
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dragon-wings
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
Airbus has a point. When you ask for an aircraft with 160 seats then you select one with 189 seats then the whole deal stinks especially if the government is so heavily involved.

So a airline can't change it's mind?
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
Danny
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 8):
As CEO Noel Foreard was saying some words to the press like "bullshit" or whatever when talking about B.

Any credible source?
 
commavia
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 5):
Looks like the airline doesn't know what they want themselves!



Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
Airbus has a point. When you ask for an aircraft with 160 seats then you select one with 189 seats then the whole deal stinks especially if the government is so heavily involved.

Is it really Airbus' judgement to make, though, about why or how AI changed its requirements and specifications? Note to Airbus: things change, so move on and get the h*ll over it already! (And, by the way, before I get flamed, I would say the exact same thing if tables were turned and Boeing was basically ambulance chasing from airline to airline all over the world trying to turn Airbus orders into Boeing orders.)

I challenge anyone to name a single airline RFP for aircraft where the original specifications did not differ, at least somewhat, from what the airline finally took delivery of. Things change. That's reality. If Airbus doesn't like it, sorry, but that is business -- and SA7700 is exactly right, Airbus is really making themsleves look very difficult to do business with.
 
flyAUA
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
what are you gonna do about it?

Ummm... nothing! Unlike some people I couldn't give the slightest s***

The reason why it was bold is because that was quoted from the article. They were not my words.

Quote:
Is it really Airbus' judgement to make, though, about why or how AI changed its requirements and specifications?

You are right, it's up to the airline, and not the manufacturer. But I do understand why airbus is getting wound up about it. They ask for something for which they have the better option. Then they consider something else for which they also offer the better option (again, not my words, the article stated it was the clear winner), yet then the airline leans to the other side which offered the less suitable option for both scenarios that the airline considered.

As a manufacturer, I would also get really wound up about this. However I would certainly not make a fool of myself like airbus is now. Just really embarassing that they keep "expressing" their views in this way. As some have said, you lose some and you win some. If they don't get this deal, they'll get another.

[Edited 2005-06-01 21:58:41]
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Danny
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 11):
quoting Danny (Reply 9):
Airbus has a point. When you ask for an aircraft with 160 seats then you select one with 189 seats then the whole deal stinks especially if the government is so heavily involved.

So a airline can't change it's mind?

It is not the airline - it is the government (Air India is not a private company).
The process of making big purchased by government is very different than by private companies. To avoid corruption government have to specify what they want and how they will asses offers. That is what they did but they selected a winner not based on their own criteria - and that is very fishy.

Although I agree that Airbus should rather shut up or it may have a problem to sell anything to India over a couple of years.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 15):
It is not the airline - it is the government (Air India is not a private company).

Oh ok I did not know that.  smile 
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PipoA380
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
Any credible source?

It was during the live broadcast from the airbus webpage on that day, about 2 or 3 hours into the flight. The press asked his poinion about the big order Boeing got the day before ( for AC if I remember well ), and he said something like "let's not talk about this, we're here to talk about the A380, this is bullshit". I quote that from my memory... so no real source, sorry.
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magyar
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:33 am

Methink, the Indian goverment just wanted
to have a cozier relationship with the
present US administration, so tilted the
playground a bit in Boeing's favor.

That is how governments work, and
Airbus should accept it. There will be
time when the Indians want to coze
up with the EU, and that is the time
when the bill should be handled to them
(with the proper interests of course).
 
Leskova
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:54 am

Let it go - nothing's going to change anyhow...

... and by that, I am not only addressing Airbus in regards to the order, but the people who have and will be posting on this thread...

Regards,
Frank
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atmx2000
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 15):
It is not the airline - it is the government (Air India is not a private company).
The process of making big purchased by government is very different than by private companies. To avoid corruption government have to specify what they want and how they will asses offers. That is what they did but they selected a winner not based on their own criteria - and that is very fishy.



Quoting Magyar (Reply 18):
Methink, the Indian goverment just wanted
to have a cozier relationship with the
present US administration, so tilted the
playground a bit in Boeing's favor.

Actually, the AI Express order always seemed more like a sop to the US to cover up the travesty of AI making an order for A343s in 2003 despite the fact their technical committee had recommended the 777. After the technical recommendation leaked out, Airbus and the French government worked overtime to ensure that the widebody order would go to Airbus for political reasons using various inducements, despite the original recommendation. Airbus might have gotten the narrowbody order to begin with if they hadn't gotten the politicians involved in trying to win the widebody order. Now they are crying about the narrowbody order loss years after the fact and after the planes have already entered the fleet. They really only have themselves to blame.

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):
It was during the live broadcast from the airbus webpage on that day, about 2 or 3 hours into the flight. The press asked his poinion about the big order Boeing got the day before ( for AC if I remember well ), and he said something like "let's not talk about this, we're here to talk about the A380, this is bullshit". I quote that from my memory... so no real source, sorry.

I saw something similar quoted elsewhere. I think he was calling the study about the A380 costs, market and profitability "bulls%&@."
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VEEREF
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:59 am

Sounds like somebody needs a timeout!
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SA7700
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:18 am

Okay, I may be way off here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

SAA is also government owned and invited both Airbus and Boeing to make presentations and demonstrate their proposed aircraft at JNB International a few years ago. This was when SAA put out tenders for the replacement of their B747 Classic fleet. This only included the 74L’s, 742’s and 743’s.

Embarrassingly enough the B777 had a engine malfunction or blow-out, I can’t remember the exact specs, but the long and the short was that the Airbus presentation went far better than Boeing would have wanted to. Next thing we hear, as South African taxpayers, is that SAA and the SA Government has decided to become an all Airbus operator and would be replacing both short-and longhaul equipment over a period of more than 10 years. At no stage was it indicated that SAA was open for an entire fleet renewal, yet Boeing had to take the punch.

Toulouse was laughing all the way. Why now this childish fuss when the same type of thing happened with Boeing a few years ago at SAA? Please, this is just an example and I equally like both Boeing and Airbus products, but as I have said business is business. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Airbus should cut their losses with AI and move on; they are making fools of a reputable company. Let it go.

Rgds

SA7700
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travelin man
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:59 am

This part of the article caught my eye:

The Airbus communication says A320 is the preferred choice of a majority of low-cost airlines across the world and evaluation of SCSR on an all-economy configuration would have provided a different result.

Really? I mean, really? More popular than the Boeing 737? I have a VERY difficult time believing this.
 
JohnStevens
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:19 am

Let it go? Why should they? Put yourself in their position you've just lost out on a big money order and you feel you weren't treated fairly, even more so you feel there is a great deal of government/political influence (possibly some corruption somewhere along the line) that caused you to lose that deal, trust me you would want to make a song and dance about it. You may not get the deal reversed but at least you've highlighted something that concerns you and have therefore shown you will not stand for it should it happen again. Airbus won't get bullied by anyone let alone AI or any government that wants to impress the current occupants of the White House.

Lets try and be fair about this shall we, some people come across as far too biased.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
You may not get the deal reversed but at least you've highlighted something that concerns you and have therefore shown you will not stand for it should it happen again. Airbus won't get bullied by anyone let alone AI or any government that wants to impress the current occupants of the White House.

Don't get your knickers in a twist.....this is just bad business behaviour (I would say the same thing if Boeing did this)......it doesn't matter who the owner of AI is...AI is the customer (and its THEIR...well..citizens money-but Indian controlled money, and they choose to what to buy), and the "customer always comes first"...I would NEVER do this to any of my clients......
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:37 am

Airbus feels that the entire process was biased against it favouring Boeing.

Awwwww. Poor little muti-billion dollar Airbus. They obviously went to an American public school, and were unfailingly taught that life is fair, and the measure of fairness is "when I get what I want."

You gotta love it. In the same vein...

"Compromise" = surrendering everything you want and giving me everything I want.
"Fair" = getting the outcome I want.
"Get along with me" = do exactly what I say, and we'll have no problems.
"Correct conclusion" = if you saw what I saw, and knew what I knew, you'd have no choice but to agree with me. Disagreement is impossible because your objection is based on your own flaws.

I have a question for our Indian friends on this board. Is there some cultural subtext here that we westerners are not grasping? I mean, this is the *second* time this year that Airbus has done this. Such whining is *obviously* embarassing in the western world, and you look like a pansy. Is it different for India?
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commavia
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
Let it go? Why should they?

Have you ever heard the saying, "shooting yourself in the foot?" If Airbus wants to have any chance of developing future business relationships in India, and much of the developing world following in India's footsteps, in might not be such a good idea to piss and moan every single time you loose. Not only does it make you look like a sore loser (which Airbus obviously is, even with all their state aid) but it also makes you look like a company that is difficult to deal with and hard to do business with. I don't think that is the reputation Airbus wants to project in a market (India) that is probably going to double or triple in size over the next twenty years. They're going to be need a lot more planes in India in that time!
 
soaringadi
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Give me a break. Airbus has the argument: 'all our planes are better so anyone choosing a boeing must be doing it for other reasons.'

lol.....  Smile Man its amazing what bullsh*t people will say just to sell their airplanes.

Thats why there are way more 73's than 320's....... b/c. the 320's are better... nice.

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flyAUA
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
Let it go? Why should they?

While politics obviously played a bigger role in this than economics, I still think they should let it go. They are making themselves look desperate when actually this is not necessary. They will get more orders soon.
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SA7700
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
Airbus won't get bullied by anyone let alone AI or any government

Airbus is a supplier of aircraft and has therefore, to my knowledge, absolutely no say in an airline’s ultimate order. They can make recommendations in line with the specific airline's needs, but should airline XYZ decide to order 20x A346 frames, which they by they way do not need, I can bet the farm on it that Airbus will most definitely not shoot them down - they will sign the deal. It comes down to $$$. When the customer makes a final decision the suppliers should abide by the customer's preference, which Airbus clearly does not want to do in AI's case

Simple example: How would you personally feel if I bugged you morning, noon and night, after you chose another supplier of products/services, instead of my products/services? It’s pure unprofessional conduct and comes down to alienation of a future customer, most likely till kingdom come. The expression: "Cut of your nose to spite your face", comes to mind.

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
You may not get the deal reversed but at least you've highlighted something that concerns you and have therefore shown you will not stand for it should it happen again.

You have highlighted that you are unprofessional and will most likely alienate potential customers. It's a tough market out there and manufacturers don't actually have the luxury of picking and choosing clients – it’s a buyers market. Each and every airframe counts towards revenue for the manufacturer.

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
even more so you feel there is a great deal of government/political influence

With all due respect, wake up and smell the roses. Both AI, SAA, etc. are government owned airlines and you can argue until you are blue in your face, but the ultimate “yes” or “no” will come from the government and of course there is political influence. We see it with Boeing as well as Airbus. It may stink, but you can not force an airline, especially a government owned airline to order your product if they don’t want to do so. The word “diplomacy” comes to mind…

Rgds

SA7700
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brons2
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting Soaringadi (Reply 28):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Give me a break. Airbus has the argument: 'all our planes are better so anyone choosing a boeing must be doing it for other reasons.'

lol..... Smile Man its amazing what bullsh*t people will say just to sell their airplanes.

Thats why there are way more 73's than 320's....... b/c. the 320's are better... nice.

I request you gently to never write again

Meethinks sarcasm is lost on Soaringadi.
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flyAUA
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:23 am

Quote:
Thats why there are way more 73's than 320's.......

Not because it's better, but because B737s have been around much longer than A320s. They are both one of the best-sold aircraft, but you are not comparing apples with apples.
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N79969
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:29 am

I agree with the consensus that Airbus should drop it and move on. Calling your customers dishonest and unfair after the deal is done is not how to generate future business. Boeing got hosed by Iberia took one bitter parting shot and that was the end.

But I think there is a reason that they must not letting this one go. Remember that Airbus is the brainchild of European industrial planners. If you look at some of their past decisions and actions, you will see that they like labelling certain industries, markets, and market segments as "strategic." I believe that China and India are considered strategic for Airbus. Note how Hu Jintao (or Jiang Zemin) were feted in Paris during a recent visit. I think the guys back in Paris were banking on winning at least 75% of the business of India's state-operated airlines at a mininum and sent in French diplomats to make sure the political fix was in. I think they simply underestimated Boeing and its products and also overestimated their own influence and cannot deal with the loss.

In the scheme of things, Air India's order is big but the biggest one out there. Airbus oversized reaction is not justified on business grounds alone.
 
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PA110
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Ord

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:39 am

If Airbus is to be criticized at all it should be for their appalling naivete when dealing with Indian carriers. Most Indian members of A.net would probably agree that despite any direct agreements between airline managers and aircraft manufacturers, government ministers will likely to find a way to meddle and influence the outcome. I can't imagine what Airbus hopes to achieve airing their grievances so publicly.
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 14):
As a manufacturer, I would also get really wound up about this.

Your emotion is understandable, but expression thereof would still be over the top. It's just whining. Question: How many business owners on this forum have lost a bid or had a contract terminated even when you *knew* you were the best possible decision your client could make? (ContnlEliteCMH raises his hand.) It just happens. It sucks. You're sad and/or angry. You want to punch some moron in the nose not because you are out the money (that hurts, believe me) but because you know the decision is probably not the best for their business in the long run. But do you *really* have a proper basis for anger? I don't think so. It's just business.

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
Lets try and be fair about this shall we, some people come across as far too biased.

What's your definition of "fair?" Is it "Fair is when Airbus wins the order regardless of what the customer really wants and chooses?" Is it "Fair = results in my favor?"

*You* tell *us* what defines fair in your mind, and maybe we'll better understand your scolding. Or is it that you just flat out don't believe that Boeing can win a deal like this? No, if the customer chooses Boeing, certainly it's because the White House or other phantom monsters forced the customer to choose Boeing?
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nirvarma
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
This part of the article caught my eye:

The Airbus communication says A320 is the preferred choice of a majority of low-cost airlines across the world and evaluation of SCSR on an all-economy configuration would have provided a different result.

Really? I mean, really? More popular than the Boeing 737? I have a VERY difficult time believing this.

Yeah LOL since 17 out of the top 20 LCCs last year operated a 737 fleet.  
according to this

[Edited 2005-06-02 02:49:14]
 
travelin man
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:55 am

Heh. Nice find Nirvarma. That's what I assumed, although I didn't want to go look up all the data. It looks like Boeing anticipated this Airbus "argument".
 
ETStar
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Ord

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
I guess they are attempting to grow some balls after all the defeats that they've been handed. Doubt that this one will be overturned as well. Boy what a bunch of cry babies!



Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
They really need to let this go already. This isn't the way to do business.



Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Jesus let it go already. You lost the order. Move on, stop bitching and try to win the next one. Babies. crying hissyfit

Aaah yes folks, this is exactly what your congressmen did too when China Airlines ordered a fleet of Airbus aicraft a few years ago... They wrote letters, complained about likely job losses at Boeing, and much much more!!!

The table does turn around.
 
airtran737
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:59 am

I wonder why FL wasnt on that list. We ordered 50 firm with 50 options of the 737.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
nirvarma
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RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 37):
Heh. Nice find Nirvarma. That's what I assumed, although I didn't want to go look up all the data. It looks like Boeing anticipated this Airbus "argument".

Actually this was posted on the boeing website in January (i think) but yeah looks like the Airbus guy was bending the truth a bit...

Cheers
NV
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 35):
Your emotion is understandable, but expression thereof would still be over the top. It's just whining. Question: How many business owners on this forum have lost a bid or had a contract terminated even when you *knew* you were the best possible decision your client could make?

You are talking about a government tender here, not a private rfp.
The government sets extremely strict and usually a lot of unnecessary but time and cost consuming conditions...which may include non-refundable guanatees.
When, according to the conditions, you are the winning bidder and the tenderer just changes his mind, you are expected to proceed to court....and win or get compensated.
Something wrong with this ?
 
shawnnyc
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 33):
I think they simply underestimated Boeing and its products and also overestimated their own influence and cannot deal with the loss.

Maybe. I think they really underestimated how the Indian aviation market was changing with bilateral liberalization as well as increased affluence of Indians. The Indian government, and thus AI, obviously knew India was going to liberalize. So they changed their aircraft requirements.

In fairness I do think politics played a role but NOT forcing India to buy aircraft it didn't need. Remember there is BARELY any hue and cry in India about the AI deal. Let Indians decide if their government is corrupt or being bullied by America (believe me the Indian elite in the press would scream about this). I think most people feel AI picked the right aircraft for their needs. In truth the A vs B offerings probably were very close and wanting to suck up to the US pushed it one way. So India got the aircraft it needed and played a political game it and its people appear to want to play.

Airbus should let it go and be more concerned about how Jet and AI offering nonstop flights to the US will affect EK's A380 orders.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting JohnStevens (Reply 24):
Airbus won't get bullied by anyone let alone AI or any government that wants to impress the current occupants of the White House.

And to the others that have brought up the "Politics" issue, what exactly does India hope to gain from impressing the Bush Administration?
Is it so hard to accept that the Boeing might be a better product?

Exchange rate people! Helps on the side of the Americans...

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
Really? I mean, really? More popular than the Boeing 737? I have a VERY difficult time believing this.

I'm with you, we must have missed the Asterisk (*)

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
The Airbus communication says A320 is the preferred choice of a majority of low-cost airlines across the world and evaluation of SCSR on an all-economy configuration would have provided a different result.

*except Southwest and Ryanair, two of the biggest LCCs in the known universe...one of them being the freekin' genesis of the concept. Oh, and those thousands of 737s, from the -100 to the -900, well those were just free samples, cause people hate those things... Silly

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 14):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
what are you gonna do about it?

Ummm... nothing! Unlike some people I couldn't give the slightest s***

I don't want to speak for Mr. DFW, but I am pretty sure his statement was colloquial; a figure of speech, not to be taken as a direct statement to you, but rather to Airbus...

Lastly.
As someone who makes a living by selling, I can't believe the boys at Airbus have not heard of this rule:
The customer is always right, no matter how stupid they might appear.
Delete this User
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1376
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 41):
You are talking about a government tender here, not a private rfp.
The government sets extremely strict and usually a lot of unnecessary but time and cost consuming conditions...which may include non-refundable guanatees.
When, according to the conditions, you are the winning bidder and the tenderer just changes his mind, you are expected to proceed to court....and win or get compensated.
Something wrong with this ?

Nothing's wrong with it necessarily. But is this really how it is?

So what if the government creates a lot of red tape? That doesn't entitle Airbus *or* Boeing to a contract.

I would also question why you are *expected* to proceed to court. If Indian law requires AI to pick the winning bidder according to the criteria, then *somebody* may have a legal basis for suing. But would Airbus actually have standing? Are they really the wronged party? No. The Indian taxpayers are the real victims if a less-than-optimal decision were made. Granted, this is not a legal interpretation by any means, but it further makes Airbus' reaction look like whining.

If Airbus had already paid money for "non-refundable guarantees" and AI took their money and ran, they'd have a reason to cry. Heck, I'd be upset for them. But I read no such complaint.

The article says nothing about legal action. It does say there is a carefully worded letter to complain about the fact that AI repeatedly changed its requirements. Government or not, that is *always* the buyer's prerogative. There may be laws in force which require a new RFP process, but that's the way the proverbial cookie crumbles. Governments and private enterprise change their mind *all the time* even after people have spent time and money preparing a bid.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Ord

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:09 am

At first look Airbus' action seems
childish, however, what if the target
is not the Indian but the US and
Boeing?

Maybe this is part of the "WTO
settlement". Afterall, if Airbus
can trigger a juicy bribery scandal
here, that could be very handy
when they will lose the recent
WTO case.
It would be a tid bit uncomfortable
for the US to play the hero of free trade
with an ugly skeleton just out
of the closet.
Perhaps, this is part of the mutually
assured embarrassment!
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:16 am

Actually, I see this as a demand by Airbus for India to get it's act in order and use the same standards to order aircraft as the rest of the world. Stop deals made after the request for bids and the specifics presented. Stop deals made by ministers and others that would seem tainted by choices and favoritism outside the scope of specifics requested. Stop behavior that makes every deal done to get this nations aircraft smack of backhanded graft grabbing. Clear the air and act and decide within time limits, performance specifics, support, and up front pricing that a government would hold a private company to in a contract.

This should be the demand by any manufacturer, government, it's citizens, and private carriers. Make a deal based on values placed on the table.

If a government is afraid of another government then those concerns should be aired so that the offending party can see what they are doing to the idea of fair trade. If that nation or manufacturer is using coercion of any kind those facts should be made public so that any subsequent actions can be viewed in the court of public and buyer opinion.

That said, we all recognize that big business, and government, is not done that way but, as citizens who have to pay the taxes to support these peoples decisions, demand should be made for reform and policy to make these choices transparent and value controlled.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 43):
I am pretty sure his statement was colloquial; a figure of speech, not to be taken as a direct statement to you, but rather to Airbus...

You would be correct  Wink

Quoting Magyar (Reply 45):
At first look Airbus' action seems childish, however, what if the target is not the Indian but the US and Boeing?

I dunno, it isn't computing that way in my brain.

The WTO case involves (among other things) the financing for the launching of new products, which isn't Airbus beef with this order. Airbus is throwing a hissy because they feel the comparison between the 738 and A320 wasn't a balanced one. It's an awfully circular way to get at Boeing for launch subsidies if you see what I mean.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 41):
When, according to the conditions, you are the winning bidder and the tenderer just changes his mind, you are expected to proceed to court....and win or get compensated.

Of course, the original widebody tender would have had Boeing winning according to the evaluation criteria, before Airbus snuck in. The question people should be asking is why is Airbus complaining about the narrowbody deal now, well over a year after it was announced and after the planes are already in service. I would suggest they knew that it was a consolation prize for Boeing after Boeing got cheated out of an order they should have won on technical merits.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 43):
And to the others that have brought up the "Politics" issue, what exactly does India hope to gain from impressing the Bush Administration?

They aren't trying to impress the administration. Its Congress, where protectionist sentiment arises from usually, that is their concern.

Quoting Magyar (Reply 45):
Maybe this is part of the "WTO
settlement". Afterall, if Airbus
can trigger a juicy bribery scandal
here, that could be very handy
when they will lose the recent
WTO case.

The likelihood of bribery being involved here is infinitesimal. Politics and trade relations are the key issues here. India enjoys unfettered access to a very rich market for IT services in the US, something they will not find in most European countries.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 38):
Aaah yes folks, this is exactly what your congressmen did too when China Airlines ordered a fleet of Airbus aicraft a few years ago...

Except the issues involved here are different. Taiwan does depend on US security guarantees to discourage a Chinese attack. This security guarantee creates friction between the US and China and no doubt harms US commercial interests with China. For a Taiwanese state airline to go with Airbus, when Europe offers no such guarantees and when certain key Airbus countries would sooner sell Taiwan up the river to curry favor with the mainland Chinese government, is a slap in the face. The same sort of issues are involved with Israel.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 663
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Now Airbus Wants To Reverse The AI Express Order

Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:32 pm

Why does Airbus or Boeing try to poke their nose when Smaller airlines(like AI) come out with a Huge a/c order?
Take AF for example, Airbus does hardly anything when it sees AF purchasing those 773ER's. Same is the case with BA,LH,and others. Never has there been a bigger fight and bullying between companies while ordering new aircrafts. I'd say that it is just that, in this case, Airbus/France can't believe a down-to-earth airline like AI can place such a big order to Boeing, and not even giving Airbus a small fraction of the order. Just my Inexperienced view, but I've tried to make the most sense of this Hell-of-a-Deal !
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(

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