aviationfreak
Posts: 1069
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Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:46 pm

Delta Airlines one of the major American carriers based at the busiest airport in the world with 80 million pax annually and in control of most operations can't make profit.
I know the fuel prices are sky high but with such a big market at ATL DL should be able to make some profit or not?

Sander
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
SPREE34
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:44 pm

Ah, they think it's still 1970?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Jumpseat70
Posts: 359
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:44 pm

I don't think anyone is interested in rehashing this with you. Do you live in a bubble? or are you just itching for a fight? Delta isn't the only airline NOT making a profit. And I guess if you really want to know the answer you can research the comments in the archives on this website alone.

Price of the airline ticket would be the first place I'd look. Then the increase of refined oil prices might be the second. Otherwise, you could go to DAL on the stock exchange reports and read all the negative stuff about the airlines.
"Up, Up and away with TWA"
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:52 pm

Aviationfreak, while delta does have a "super-hub" in ATL you must remember that many people lately (me not being one) have complained about DL and have started to choose other options like FL (Which is a fine airline in my eyes) so maybe competition from FL and the bitterness of the employees (which again I say I have not witnessed, but many say is there) has started to effect their business in ATL.
Just my thoughts,
Brandon  Smile
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 3):
Aviationfreak, while delta does have a "super-hub" in ATL you must remember that many people lately (me not being one) have complained about DL and have started to choose other options like FL (Which is a fine airline in my eyes) so maybe competition from FL and the bitterness of the employees (which again I say I have not witnessed, but many say is there) has started to effect their business in ATL.
Just my thoughts,
Brandon

The sheer scope of DL's operation would likely mitigate any ill-will from pax in terms of dollars and cents if that were the only issue affecting profits. The bottom line is that the revenue generated by DL, despite its super hub in ATL and elsewhere is not enough to cover the cost of the operating the airline, and therefore yield a profit...period.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ssides
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:16 pm

The only difference between DL's ATL hub and other airline hub operations is that DL is disproportionately focused at ATL.

DL has always had a higher percentage of its operations at ATL versus CVG, SLC, and the now-defunct DFW hub. If you look at AA, its operations are more evenly spread out through DFW, ORD, MIA, and STL. NW is more evenly distributed between MSP and DTW. UA is relatively evenly split between ORD and DEN.

Basically, the volume DL has at ATL is made up for by relatively small hub operations at CVG and SLC. Once you realize that, it's no different from any other legacy carrier.

In fact, as much as I hate connecting at ATL, I wouldn't be surprised if ATL hurts DL. It is quite delay-prone in the summer months, and there used to be a saying that "no Delta flight in the free world can bypass Atlanta." I'd much rather fly non-stop if possible.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
airfrnt
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:29 pm

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines one of the major American carriers based at the busiest airport in the world with 80 million pax annually and in control of most operations can't make profit.
I know the fuel prices are sky high but with such a big market at ATL DL should be able to make some profit or not?

As someone who travels thru ATL fairly frequently, DL's placement of all of their eggs in the ATL basket is not particularly wise. What they are trying to do is grab the economy of scale and cheap connect costs with a mega hub, but their hub is not geographically centered, is prone to weather delays, and they have little pricing power on what should be some lucrative routes due to FL.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 1):
Ah, they think it's still 1970?

Coffee all over the computer, thanks for the morning laugh!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 3):
you must remember that many people lately (me not being one) have complained about DL and have started to choose other options like FL

Delta's share of ATL passengers is up not down, they still yield 20% higher than Airtran on competing routes.

There are many reasons for Delta's financial situation but here are some in order of importance besides oil prices.

1) Delta's domestic routes are lower yielding than other majors due the high degree of LCC competition.

2) Delta's labor rates have been until recently, the tops in the industry and are still higher than average.

3) Delta was performing more in-house maintenance work than other carriers.

4) Delta's utilization rates were not as high as LCCs'

5) Delta's debt service is the worst in the industry at 6/10ths of 1 cent on a CASM basis.

But their transformation program is addressing most of these issues and the CFO has stated non-fuel CASM will be down 13% this year and a good amount next year.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 6):
DL's placement of all of their eggs in the ATL basket is not particularly wise. What they are trying to do is grab the economy of scale and cheap connect costs with a mega hub, but their hub is not geographically centered, is prone to weather delays

Now this is not true at all. ATL taken by itself is the most profitable hub and has a superb geographic location. Just above the huge Florida market, the only significant Southeast hub for Transatlantic flights, far enough South to make it a good Latin America connector.

And as far as delays go ATL has seen huge improvements in on-time since their rolling hub was put in. In fact in May Delta will have the highest on-time in the industry. When was the last time that happened?
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:58 pm

IMHO, DL's problems (and losses) have much less to do with ATL and much more to do with high fixed costs that management has largely ignored, even since 9/11, compared with AA and CO. DL management has been too busy building Song, fighting with the pilots, etc., and as a result DL now has one of the highest cost structures of any U.S. carrier.

As for ATL, specifically, IMO, DL has been smart to retreat from where it was weak to build up where it is strong. Pulling down DFW was one of the smartest things DL management has done in years, and the continued shrinkage of mainline operations at CVG and SLC are obviously part of DL's strategy to pretty much make ATL the mainline hub and everything else RJ. Whether or not this strategy will work out, only time will tell, and of course any DL FFs know that this strategy must be questioned by DL passengers and management alike whenever one of those great summer thunderstorms comes rolling into ATL and knocks out seemingly half of the DL system!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
and as a result DL now has one of the highest cost structures of any U.S. carrier.

Delta now has the lowest CASM of the full service carriers now. You must take out the Delta Connection traffic when comparing Delta to AA/CO/UA etc. as they are the only airline that publishes this together.
 
N77014
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:32 am

The hub is not the problem here. DL's problems are related to fixed expenses out of line with the current environment, none of which have to do with the use of a massive hub offering massive connection possibilities worldwide.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:40 am

Just to give you an example of how huge ATL is to Delta's revenue. Back when Delta had 8 or 9 banks of flights during the day. The 5th bank that included the 4PM-6PM departures including International flights brought in more revenue to Delta than the entire hub of CVG during the whole 24hrs of operation.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:42 am

ATL isn't necessarily the problem, but look at SLC and CVG.

Those two hubs primarily rely on low volume, high-CASM RJ's feeding other low-volume high CASM RJ's. This model might work if yields were particularly high, but yields have fallen even in markets with no LCC's. DFW had a similar problem (only to a more extreme extent) and that's why DL had to close it.

DL's also had a hard time in core markets like JFK, BOS, FLL, MCO and TPA due to extreme LCC pressure.

So even if ATL is profitable, the rest of the DL network could easily drag it down.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:48 am

Much of the pricing pressure is off CVG. They've witnessed CMH's demise as a hub, CLE's reductions, PIT's reductions, and IND's demise. With ORD's capacity problems making them more O&D oriented, DTW is the really only full service hub that competes with them for connecting business.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:03 am

If they'd phase out the RJ's in favor of Embraer 170's and Q400's they do better on the regional routes. Using two 70 seaters as your regional feeder balances capacity across the regional system vs. some 30, some 50, and some 70 seaters. The last part of the equation is the prolific use of RJ's has reduced their cargo handling capacity exponentially. The Q400 and 170 don't have this problem, at least not on the scale that the -200 and -700 do. Granted the use of Fedex, UPS and the like has had a greater impact, but they don't even stand a chance of being competitive. You can't even ship a medium sized dog like a Labrador in a series 500 kennel on an RJ.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 15):
CLE's reductions

Being here in CLE pray tell the reductions you speak of? Also DL is hurting in CVG thanks to the closeness of other airport that offer lower fares, i.e. DAY, IND and SDF just to name a few.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 11):
Delta now has the lowest CASM of the full service carriers now.

AA and CO have operating costs considerably lower than DL's, thanks largely to DL's inefficient fleet and exorbatintly high pilot pay plan.

From 1Q05 numbers (AA, CO, DL):

AA mainline only CASM: 9.92 cents
CO mainline only CASM: 10.56 cents
DL mainline only CASM: 11.62 cents

DL's operating costs are far from the lowest of the legacy airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-03 18:15:05]
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:25 am

commavia you don't include 1x charges in CASM calculations, nor do you include Delta Connection traffic.

If you work work for an airline get yourself a copy of Aviation Daily, online to the right they have the CASM calculation excluding 1x charges and Delta Connection. You will find that DL was just barely above CO for the 2nd spot.

But that was then this is now. The full effects Delta's labor cuts (and CO's as well) will have kicked in and Delta will have assumed it's historic place as having the lowest CASM among the majors.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 17):
Being here in CLE pray tell the reductions you speak of

Surely you are aware of CO pulling out mainline fights? Pulling out of markets all together? Research this and get back to us.
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 19):
commavia you don't include 1x charges in CASM calculations, nor do you include Delta Connection traffic

I am quoting directly here from DL's press release of 21 April 2005:

Mainline
Operating Cost Per Available Seat Mile - excluding special Items:

9.98

Per Delta, this excludes DCI, and it excludes special items, and their costs are still almost 10.0 cents, compared to lower numbers for both AA and CO. These are DL's own numbers. DL--mainline with or without regionals--does not have lower operating costs than AA or CO.

[Edited 2005-06-03 18:37:23]
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 20):
Surely you are aware of CO pulling out mainline fights? Pulling out of markets all together? Research this and get back to us.

I'll get back with you once you post the truth, and maybe you should stick to your bashing LCC's and your precious DL, which even though you post incorrectly at that, it makes for humorous reading when others shoot you down. Also since you are not in CLE and do not know the market enough said.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:59 am

COMMAVIA

Slow down and read what is being said here. I said "right now" Delta has the lowest cost among the majors. First you post bogus numbers including 1x charges, then you post Delta's numbers but don't compare them to AA which came out to be 9.80. Now Delta will see the full effects of their paycuts this quarter, their guidance say non-fuel cost will be 13% lower from this Quarter last year.

Will you take me up on a gentleman' bet the DL will have the lowest CASM among the full service carriers when 2Q numbers are posted?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 22):
I'll get back with you once you post the truth

I knew you'd run away LOL Even if I asked the smallest question about CO and CLE you'd run away like a little girl. You absolutely cannot back your B.S.
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 23):
Slow down and read what is being said here. I said "right now" Delta has the lowest cost among the majors. First you post bogus numbers including 1x charges, then you post Delta's numbers but don't compare them to AA which came out to be 9.80. Now Delta will see the full effects of their paycuts this quarter, their guidance say non-fuel cost will be 13% lower from this Quarter last year.

I know what I wrote. I, by accident, posted the wrong DL numbers the first time. I didn't make that mistake the second time. Not only does DL not have the lowest CASM of the legacies now, but I doubt they will in the future. Their costs are coming down, but so are AA's and just about all the other legacies. And, quite frankly, this arguing back and forth about whose costs are lower -- where I think I'm right and you think you are -- is missing the whole point. Regardless of which airline has lower operating costs now or one month from now (and we'll have to respectfully disagree on this point), I think just about everyone would generally agree that AA is in a far strong operating and financial position than DL in just about every metric imaginable.

[Edited 2005-06-03 19:03:57]
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 24):
I knew you'd run away LOL Even if I asked the smallest question about CO and CLE you'd run away like a little girl. You absolutely cannot back your B.S.

Believe what you want with that weedwacker you call a brain! There is no game in arguing with an idiot on the internet and using up band with for no good reason.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:13 am

Well thank you for conceding that point.

But in Delta's defense they are smack in the middle of a major cost overhaul, AA as you are aware is farther along than this, hence they will most likely not see the large percentage drops in CASM that Delta will see.

And of course I agree AA is much better off financially what with being cash flow positive, having less debt service, less pension obligations, and more cash.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:22 am

Oh I'm sorry I misread your post. Delta does not have the lowest cost now? You conceded nothing.


Very well, you will receive proof in six weeks.
 
LGAtoIND
Posts: 416
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 15):
and IND's demise

Ummm what demise in Indy are you talking about? Just last November NW satrted a small hub there.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
From 1Q05 numbers (AA, CO, DL):

AA mainline only CASM: 9.92 cents
CO mainline only CASM: 10.56 cents
DL mainline only CASM: 11.62 cents



Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
I am quoting directly here from DL's press release of 21 April 2005:

Mainline
Operating Cost Per Available Seat Mile - excluding special Items:

9.98

Per Delta, this excludes DCI, and it excludes special items, and their costs are still almost 10.0 cents, compared to lower numbers for both AA and CO. These are DL's own numbers. DL--mainline with or without regionals--does not have lower operating costs than AA or CO.

Ahhhh, since when is 10.56 lower than 9.98, pray tell? And I will shock myself for agreeing with Padcrasher on something at least once in that the first quarter numbers will not fully reflect the impact of Delta's network restructuring initiative. (Wow, I still can't get over agreeing with Padcrasher!)

Actually, she's also correct in that Delta's pilots were the most obstinate in agreeing to take pay cuts from the stratospheric levels negotiated before 9/11. It's a shame that Delta had to get so close to the point of filing bankruptcy first. C.E. Woolman has probably been rolling in his grave the last several years.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:36 am

Delta had lower costs than AA last Quarter. AA's 9.80 cent figure include a tax credit for fuel taxes. Less, this it would have been slightly over 10 cents and more than Delta.

Scott are you still mad my point that CO will have higher margins than Southwest sans hedging?

You got all technical with the numbers and it turned out I was right. CO will see a higher margin than WN this Quarter correcting for hedging.

I can only lead you to water, not make you drink.
 
Zone1
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:59 am

It's too bad the DL pilots' contract didn't limit the amount of 40-50 seat RJs they could fly as severely as the 70 seat RJs. For once the pilots might have done a favor for DL. I almost wish they would do a pre packaged bankruptcy and get rid of all their CRJ leases and use some of their 738 options, because obviously the frequency is better argument isn't working.
/// U N I T E D
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 31):
Scott are you still mad my point that CO will have higher margins than Southwest sans hedging?

No, not at all, because you are still wrong. You can't just add the gain from fuel hedges to operating costs without subtracting the effect it would have on employee profitsharing!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:06 am

Don't twist it bro. I said CO would have higher magins without hedging. Yes I failed to spell out the math formula and off the top of my head I did some rough math.

The point still stands. CO will have higher margins than WN excluding hedging, taking into account taxes and profiting share.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:10 am

Aviationfreak - You answered your own question within the context of the question. Nobody wants to fly through a SUPER HUB, they are barely willing to fly through a HUB anymore and everybody wants CHEAP, DIRECT flights to THEIR DESTINATION. ATL is not the greatest place to fly though the way you think it may be. If DL's hub was in Kansas City (with ATL's prices) or some other centrally located place, it might not be so bad.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 34):
The point still stands. CO will have higher margins than WN excluding hedging, taking into account taxes and profiting share.

If you are "taking into account taxes" it's even more lopsided in favor of Southwest, since LUV paid out $38 million in income taxes which would have been reversed into a tax credit in the event of a loss, while CAL paid no income tax for the quarter.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:18 am

Scott enjoy your 6 weeks. Because you'll be joining Comavia in the corner when reports come out.
 
Zone1
Posts: 894
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 35):
Aviationfreak - You answered your own question within the context of the question. Nobody wants to fly through a SUPER HUB, they are barely willing to fly through a HUB anymore and everybody wants CHEAP, DIRECT flights to THEIR DESTINATION.

I personally like flying through the ATL super hub. When you are flying to a super hub and are delayed, chances are that there will be another flight unless you are flying at 9 o'clock at night. There are only a few cities in the country that have enough O&D to warrant direct flights. For those of us that don't live in the top 15 cities in the US the hub system is the only system that works. FL has shown us that the hub system works, and cheap trumps direct.
/// U N I T E D
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:39 am

Actually, CO might beat DL in terms of CASM considering they signed big labor concessions that went into effect on April 1. It's hard to tell though.

CO is also increasing the size of its mainline fleet which should help spread some fixed costs over more air frames.

And even if DL does have the lowest cost structure, so what? They also have an incredibly low-yielding network. A low CASM is only good if your RASM is actually higher than the CASM.

Plus, as a percentage of DL's network, more and more of DL's customers are flying on DL's high CASM RJ's. So even if mainline costs are lower, when the customer connects to an RJ's...you lose a lot of then gains you made from cost cutting.

[Edited 2005-06-03 21:46:01]
 
Zone1
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
Plus, as a percentage of DL's network, more and more of DL's customers are flying on DL's high CASM RJ's.

Not by choice! Sunday I'm flying out of PNS to IAD. This will be my first all CRJ trip.
/// U N I T E D
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 40):
Not by choice!

LOL. I think DL has made a big mistake by shifting flight after flight to RJs, but as I said, this is their strategy and time will tell if it works. But, customers are getting sick of flying RJs on long flights and other airlines are turning their mainline operations into profitable operations while DL just shifts more and more flying to 50- and 70-seat DCI RJs.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 40):
Not by choice! Sunday I'm flying out of PNS to IAD. This will be my first all CRJ trip.

DL has 8 mainline flights a day from PNS to ATL plus a ton of mainline from ATL to IAD, so you should have been able to avoid the RJ if you wanted to.

I do agree with Commavia regarding DL's questionable RJ strategy. The RJ's have their place, but I think DL is relying too heavily on them. If the RJ's were so great, why isn't DL doing better? DL has a lot more RJ's at their disposal than NW, but DL's financials aren't any better.

Even the staunchest DL cheerleader, Padcrasher, stated that DL has an extremely high debt load. Well, guess where a good chunk of that debt came from? The RJ orgy.
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 5):
there used to be a saying that "no Delta flight in the free world can bypass Atlanta."

LOL! And true too!

There's another saying in the South that "When you die, on the way to heaven, your soul will have to connect in ATL!"
 
Zone1
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:47 am

RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
DL has 8 mainline flights a day from PNS to ATL plus a ton of mainline from ATL to IAD, so you should have been able to avoid the RJ if you wanted to.

Don't remind me, but I didn't book my ticket, unfortunately. I got booked on CO on the way back, so at least I get a lot of SkyMiles going through IAH and get to avoid RJs.
/// U N I T E D
 
Guest

RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 4):
The bottom line is that the revenue generated by DL, despite its super hub in ATL and elsewhere is not enough to cover the cost of the operating the airline, and therefore yield a profit...period.

...and that should have ended this thread!  Wink

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 17):
Also DL is hurting in CVG thanks to the closeness of other airport that offer lower fares, i.e. DAY, IND and SDF just to name a few.

Simplifares has made that a non issue.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
AA and CO have operating costs considerably lower than DL's, thanks largely to DL's inefficient fleet and exorbitantly high pilot pay plan.

The new contract has made that a non issue. And just how is the fleet "inefficient" compared to other airlines it's size?

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 35):
Aviationfreak - You answered your own question within the context of the question. Nobody wants to fly through a SUPER HUB, they are barely willing to fly through a HUB anymore and everybody wants CHEAP, DIRECT flights to THEIR DESTINATION. ATL is not the greatest place to fly though the way you think it may be. If DL's hub was in Kansas City (with ATL's prices) or some other centrally located place, it might not be so bad.

No one does? How is DL still the largest airline in terms of pax volume, and the largest across the Atlantic? Please show me the poll you're referencing with that statement.

B
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 45):
How is DL still the largest airline in terms of pax volume,

They aren't anymore...that distintion belongs to AA. But before the AA merger with TWA...DL had always carried more pax than all other carriers.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines one of the major American carriers based at the busiest airport in the world with 80 million pax annually and in control of most operations can't make profit.

One must not forget that ATL is the busiest airport because of Delta, unlike places like LAX, ORD, NYC, where it is much more natural to have a bigger airport simply due to the O/D of the surrounding area. ATL exists in part due to ATL, the the profits there are from passengers Delta mostly brings through there. In a way they create their own statistics at ATL.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
commavia
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 45):
And just how is the fleet "inefficient" compared to other airlines it's size?

Too many fleets and subfleets. DL currently operates a total of 11 aircraft types, with at least 14 subfleets (I am counting two 737-300 configurations, one mainline, one shuttle; two 737-800 configurations, one FY and on Y only; and two 767-300 configurations, one Delta and one ex-Gulf Air).

By contrast, AA is operating with seven aircraft types and 11 subfleets (soon to be eight). CO is operating with 10 aircraft types and 13 subfleets.

Less fleets and less subfleets means less training cost, less planning and logistics cost, less maintenance and overhaul cost, and generally less operating complexity.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: Why Can't DL Make Profit Despite ATL Superhub?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:25 am

I think the problem lies in their homebase, ATL. There isn't a whole lot there, (Georgians: I do like Atlanta!)... business wise, and especially for tourism. I wonder how they create their own statistics. I can't really imagine Foreigners from around the world chosing to fly to ATL over ORD, JFK, LAX, IAD, SFO, MIA, except for less congestion.
I think DL's hubs are also a little "off". They are: sort of LGA (only busy for short commuter flights, and DL serves it with 763s), ALT (above), CVG (see ATL explanation), DFW is closed, and SLC (why?). Compared to AA and UA especially, these hubs are not at all strategic. You could also say the same thing for US's CLT, PHL, PIT hubs... no wiggle-room, no flexiblity, no convienence for DL customers living in SEA.

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