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clickhappy
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A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:21 pm

How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

"We have about same number of seats, and I can fly about same range, within a couple hundred miles, but burn 30 percent less fuel and I'm doing it with a much quieter airplane," Leahy said of the A350-900 versus the 777-200.


Source is the Seattle PI
 
MarcoT
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):

How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

Why not? The A350 always got to have a new composite wing and a new lightweight Li-Al fuselage. Now it seems that it will have a composite half (rear) fuselage and a Li-Al half (forward) fuselage or viceversa, so very roughly speaking it will have at least 75% of the weight reduction factor of the 787. It will sport the same engine in a bleed air version, and engine manufacturers have played down the importance of bleedless vs bleed air for fuel savings effects.
So it will have efficency improvements on the same order of magnitude of 787, albeit a bit less, and since the 787 is (I think) supposed to have a 30-33% savings over the existing conventional competitors I will say that we are almost there.

Now pick with a grain of salt what Lehay say about having 'roughly the same seats and range' and it is pretty plausible that the A359 will have maybe a 30% savings over the 772ER on a trip basis and say 25% or so on a seat basis.

Marco

[Edited 2005-06-03 12:52:22]
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keesje
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 pm

ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

.............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flyAUA
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

"We have about same number of seats, and I can fly about same range, within a couple hundred miles, but burn 30 percent less fuel and I'm doing it with a much quieter airplane," Leahy said of the A350-900 versus the 777-200.

Well it's not so surprising really. The A350 is supposed to match the B787, so just like the B787 has those advantages over the B777, so does the A350. It's a simple equation really...
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trex8
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 3):
so just like the B787 has those advantages over the B777,

AFAIK all comparisons released by Boeing for the 787 are relative to the 767, not the 777, though with a lower weight yet similar capacity and range and more efficient engines the A350 will be more economical than the 772 though 30% may be stretching it.
 
flyAUA
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
AFAIK all comparisons released by Boeing for the 787 are relative to the 767, not the 777

Yep true, I just used the 777 because that's what they compared the A359 in the article to  Wink

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
though with a lower weight yet similar capacity and range and more efficient engines the A350 will be more economical than the 772 though 30% may be stretching it.

That thought also sat in the corner of my mind... for Airbus' sake though, I hope it! But we'll see  Smile
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WINGS
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:54 pm

Airbus may have a direct competitor to the B787-800/900 and B777, although the B787-300 remains not targeted. Airbus may find that this market segment may prove to be very attractive as it is intended to replace A300/310 and the B757/767 on short hopes. I can not see Airbus laying back and giving it all away to Boeing.

By the way what ever happened to the A305 project? Does anyone have any info as to what was proposed?
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
boeingbus
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Airbus may have a direct competitor to the B787-800/900 and B777,

Not for the 787-800! the 350 is way bigger... So Airbus has a direct competitor to just the 789 and possibly the 772.

But I am not sure if the 359 is adequate to compete with the 772. 772 holds more cargo and is wider... more range and much more spacious interior... I can see Boeing modify the 772, just like its going to do to the 747Adv. - new engines and a modified wing tips.

Airbus is smart going after the 772... but I think they are ignoring the smaller widebody jets. BIG MISTAKE!!!!
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WINGS
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
But I am not sure if the 359 is adequate to compete with the 772. 772 holds more cargo and is wider... More range and much more spacious interior... I can see Boeing modify the 772, just like its going to do to the 747Adv. - new engines and a modified wing tips.

You may be right as to the range and cargo but as for comfort I would choose the A330/340 over the B777 any day. I still prefer 2-4-2 seating over the 3-5-3.
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
AFAIK all comparisons released by Boeing for the 787 are relative to the 767, not the 777,

Of course...Boeing does not want the 787 to canibalize the 777.
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DAYflyer
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:56 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

A-It's not "so bad". It is one of the most efficient passenger jets ever developed.

B- It is being somewhat eclipsed by newer technology and that happens to all aircraft. Just because the 787 is now the more efficient replacement for the A-330 does that mean the A-330 is "that bad"?? Or because the 747-100/200 was replaced by the 777 does not mean the 747 was "that bad" ?? Hardly-the new product is simply superior.

C- Boeing will incorporate the new 787 technology across the family of commerical aircraft and develop a 777 replacement that will offer greatly enhanced performance.

D- The 777 was, until the 787, the most advanced product offering in the Boeing line. It has sold about 900 airframes to date. It hardy qaulifies as a "bad" aircraft. It outsold it's nearest competitor to almost the point of shutdown, hence the A-350 had to be developed.

E-The A-350 is a reaction to the leap Boeing took with the 787. It is supposed to compete with both the 787 and 777-200. The 777-200 is on life support anyway and will be replaced.
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scbriml
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:58 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
but I think they are ignoring the smaller widebody jets. BIG MISTAKE!!!!

They will not ignore this market segment. They have said they will look at a short-ranged people-mover (the so-called A305).
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DfwRevolution
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Not for the 787-800! the 350 is way bigger... So Airbus has a direct competitor to just the 789 and possibly the 772.

Not necessarily, the 787 are much bigger aircraft than they look. The -8 variant is large enough to economically compete with the A358.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 9):
Of course...Boeing does not want the 787 to canibalize the 777.

The 772ER is past it's experiation date, Boeing knows this. It's order stream has slowed down significantly since before the 787 and A350 have been available for purchase. The last new customer was Air NZ (a year ago) and the 772ER hasn't been a part of most major evaluations since. It's just a matter of when to replace it... how many times has what EK wanted been what the rest of the market wanted?

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
By the way what ever happened to the A305 project? Does anyone have any info as to what was proposed?

Purely conceptual. It will be atleast 2015 before it has a chance of becoming reality.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
But I am not sure if the 359 is adequate to compete with the 772. 772 holds more cargo and is wider... more range and much more spacious interior... I can see Boeing modify the 772, just like its going to do to the 747Adv. - new engines and a modified wing tips.

All valid points, but the cost and lead-time for a 777NG might be prohibitive. By Airbus own admission, they predict several "waves" of 300-seat replacement and growth. I can't see why Boeing will invest heavily in the 777 now just to catch the first wave.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
I still prefer 2-4-2 seating over the 3-5-3.

I can count the number of 3-5-3 777s on one hand... ZERO  Wink
 
MD80Nut
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
still prefer 2-4-2 seating over the 3-5-3.

Nobody flies the 777 with a 3-5-3 configuration. Most airlines us either 3-3-3 or 2-5-2. Emirates uses 3-4-3, I believe they are the only ones though.

Cheers, Ralph
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PA110
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

The A359 is still just a blueprint. Considering the steady improvement in composits and manufacturing, it only stands to reason that new designs will be more efficient than existing ones. Considering that both manufactures deal in hyperbole, it remains to be seen how efficient the A359 will actually be. Keep in mind that Boeing has enjoyed a recent track record of exceeding expectations while Airbus has had a problem meeting expectations. This too could change.
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Leskova
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 13):
Emirates uses 3-4-3, I believe they are the only ones though.

No, they aren't - Lauda also has a 3-4-3 config.

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

How's it possible? The A350 is much newer and based on completely new technology... that's how.

And, no, as others have said - the B777 isn't bad, but just as many other very good planes, it's slowly being overtaken by newer ones. Will happen to the B787 some day as well...

And as to why airlines keep buying it? How many B787s or A350s are in service today? That should answer your question.

Regards,
Frank
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ikramerica
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:46 am

Boeing is at this point selling only 773ER and 772LR models, though some 772ERs are still being sold/delivered. The 772LR is more efficient than the 772ER, and it is pretty interesting that Leahy seems to be ignoring that plane, or is he?

The 772 legacy will be receiving winglet retrofits before the A350 EIS, which should increase efficiency 5-8% for those who want to keep theirs, cutting down on the A350 advantage as a replacement for a still viable airframe. But it will still be 15 years newer than the 772ER.

I still don't get why Airbus is forcing 30 more seats on the market.

Either way, something the A350 has going for it is this: many 787 launch customers are buying 772LRs also. With the A350-8/9, you get a 789 and a 772 sized craft in the same type, with same engines and 90%+ commonality.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:50 am

ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

.............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0


You can watch that evaporate when Boeing rolls out a 777 ADV.
 
trex8
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
It has sold about 900 airframes to date.

Boeing website shows 680 orders through April

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
The 772LR is more efficient than the 772ER, and it is pretty interesting that Leahy seems to be ignoring that plane, or is he?

if you don't need the range why get an LR, you are paying landing charges at many airports based on certified TO weight, let alone 10-15 tonnes extra structural deadweight
 
PPVRA
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
But I am not sure if the 359 is adequate to compete with the 772. 772 holds more cargo and is wider... more range and much more spacious interior... I can see Boeing modify the 772, just like its going to do to the 747Adv. - new engines and a modified wing tips.

I don't think a cannibalized 772 can make up for an all new (or so claimed by Airbus) design like the A350. Same issue as before with the 787/A350, except Airbus did not make that mistake and the A350 became an all new deisgn.

Considering the greater payload and range of the 777, they could get closer then the initial A350 concept, but doubt enough for the all new design.

Keep in mind that the 777 already makes use of composites (little, but still), making reaching that 30% superior efficiency claimed by Airbus with a 777Adv. much more difficult.

This is what will be needed to compete on the same playing field:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
C- Boeing will incorporate the new 787 technology across the family of commerical aircraft and develop a 777 replacement that will offer greatly enhanced performance.

Cheers,
PPVRA
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WINGS
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
can count the number of 3-5-3 777s on one hand... ZERO

Ooooops, sorry about that its been a long day.  Embarrassment
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
N60659
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
This is what will be needed to compete on the same playing field:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
C- Boeing will incorporate the new 787 technology across the family of commerical aircraft and develop a 777 replacement that will offer greatly enhanced performance.

Agreed. Whatever Boeing could do to reduce the OEW of the 772ER while either maintaining or increasing the MTOW would suffice to counter the A359. And Boeing has time to do this. Even if a formal launch for such a project is issued in 2008-9, it should be ready to enter airline service right around 2012. By this time, the 787 would be in airline service, Boeing would have a much better understanding of the issues involved with composite technology and still emerge with a product only a year or two after the A359. Just my  twocents 

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cltguy
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:29 am

I look forward to seeing the USAirways A350 in CLT...I think it will look sweet.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:44 am

Tell me what engines are to power the 359 at the weight necessary to get 300 pax , 7500nm?

787 engines won't do it.

I have not seen the article but would be interested in the MTOW Airbus is stating for the 359 with this capability.

Airbus have obviously made some btreakthrough efficiency discovery, to get 30% efficiency gain , considering the 787 can only get 20% improvement with a start from scratch all weight bearing composite aircraft, new engines and groundbreaking systems improvements, which Airbus have already said they are not going to use.

One thing is for sure, if this is not a distortion of the figures, as well as killing the 772 it will kill the 380, and the 340, and the 330.

Ruscoe
 
MarcoT
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):


.............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0

You can watch that evaporate when Boeing rolls out a 777 ADV.

No.
Exactly in which way this hypotetical 777ADV will achieve efficiency gains similar to the all composite 787 and 75% composite A350 without going down the composite alley, ie without being an almost all new plane with a proportionate development cost?
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 20):
Ooooops, sorry about that its been a long day.

It's cool... there are a few carriers that opperate 3-4-3, namely EK.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
You can watch that evaporate when Boeing rolls out a 777 ADV.

But would the cost and lead-time of such an aircraft be?

I agree that the A359 isn't an invincible product, it could be countered a number of ways, however, it is superior to what Boeing has to offer in the B-market niche.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
Tell me what engines are to power the 359 at the weight necessary to get 300 pax , 7500nm?

First, I belive the A359 range has been downrated to 6,800 nm. The MTOW reported by Flug Review is 242,000 kg.

Second, the GEnx72A1 will power the A359. Assuming that an output thrust of 72,000 lbf, that's still significantly less than the weakest engine on the 777.
 
aerosol
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 13):
Nobody flies the 777 with a 3-5-3 configuration. Most airlines us either 3-3-3 or 2-5-2. Emirates uses 3-4-3, I believe they are the only ones though.

Put Air Austral on that list as well.
 
Glom
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:50 am

30% eh? Ambitious! At this stage, given that the A350 keeps on changing, it's more of a target rather than a statement of what they can achieve.

I think we are now looking at two Airbus mantras disappearing. 4 engines 4 long haul is truly dead. But, it seems that the over use of composites argument is also dying now that the A350 is a giant piece of GLARE.
 
NoUFO
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 27):
30% eh? Ambitious! At this stage, given that the A350 keeps on changing, it's more of a target rather than a statement of what they can achieve.

Agreed.

Quoting Glom (Reply 27):
4 engines 4 long haul is truly dead.

Was't that VS's mantra? The first 2-hauler crossing the Atlantik was an A300.
I support the right to arm bears
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 28):
The first 2-hauler crossing the Atlantik was an A300.

The A300 was the frist widebody twin, however it lacked intercontinental range. Initial variants were delivered to North America via YQX and REK.

The first widebody twin with transAtlantic range was the 767.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 28):
Was't that VS's mantra?

4Engines4Longhaul was VS, but Airbus repeated the same PR in just about every other form possible.

Ironic that the last few all-new 777 customers cited that being a twin helped influence them toward the Boeing product...  Wink
 
brons2
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:39 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Airbus may have a direct competitor to the B787-800/900 and B777, although the B787-300 remains not targeted.

Airbus is not competing with the 787-8 in the 220 seat range.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
You may be right as to the range and cargo but as for comfort I would choose the A330/340 over the B777 any day. I still prefer 2-4-2 seating over the 3-5-3.

There is no 777 made that is flying 3-5-3.

3-3-3, yes. 2-5-2 yes. But not 3-5-3.
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zvezda
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 13):
Nobody flies the 777 with a 3-5-3 configuration. Most airlines us either 3-3-3 or 2-5-2. Emirates uses 3-4-3, I believe they are the only ones though.

TG also. I believe there are others.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):

I still don't get why Airbus is forcing 30 more seats on the market.

Because that's the only way they can get close to the B787's CASM without going to a composite fuselage.
 
ikramerica
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:42 am

yeah, but that's not a good answer. If it's too big, it's too big.

Also, how are they going to thin out the interior materials to give the plane a little more interior width AND make the plane quieter inside than a wider, newer fuselage shaped 787? I doubt it. You can't just assume that the quietest cabin in the sky will stay that way when you trim out space that held sound insulation, and latch on two more powerful engines.

In that regard, the A340s and the A330s are in a unique position, no?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
gigneil
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
First, I belive the A359 range has been downrated to 6,800 nm. The MTOW reported by Flug Review is 242,000 kg.

It hasn't. Its still 7,500 nm. 6800nm isn't competitive with the 772ER.

Also, I believe they've decided on a 262kg MTOW now.


Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
Second, the GEnx72A1 will power the A359. Assuming that an output thrust of 72,000 lbf, that's still significantly less than the weakest engine on the 777.

GE has offered Airbus a 75,000 lbf variant.

You have to keep in mind, this plane will be lighter than an A330-300, which is MUCH lighter than a 777-200ER.

N
 
QFA001
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
I have not seen the article but would be interested in the MTOW Airbus is stating for the 359 with this capability.

The -800 is hovering around 245t. Airbus was trying to do a -900 based on the -800 MTOW, but airlines have said that they want more payload/range. So, they're looking at something around 260t. However, to do 260t, they need an engine modification.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
First, I belive the A359 range has been downrated to 6,800 nm. The MTOW reported by Flug Review is 242,000 kg.

Evidently, every Airbus document says something different. However, Leahy is still talking about a 7,500nm version. He didn't mention the MTOW, though...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 34):
Evidently, every Airbus document says something different.

I was going by a Flug Review article posted within the last week or so, but I agree, finding details for a product yet to be firmly defined is clear as mud...  Wink
 
atmx2000
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 34):
Evidently, every Airbus document says something different. However, Leahy is still talking about a 7,500nm version. He didn't mention the MTOW, though...

Careful now. Someone might be trying to smoke out your identity.  Wink
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
lehpron
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
How is this even possible? Is the 777 that bad? If so why do airlines keep buying it?

Dude it's been ten years, would there have been enough improvement in the industry to talk about getting better? By the time A359 goes into service, the first 777 will have been 15 years old or more. A plane doesn't have to be up for replacement for competition to offer a 'better' one.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

I thought the first version 772 and the 772ER were different planes? Or did you automatically think of the most recent version?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
intothinair
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 18):
Boeing website shows 680 orders through April

That's without the 18 777"s for AC 15 777's for AI, and 5 777F for AF though, including those this would add up to 718 orders.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
Tell me what engines are to power the 359 at the weight necessary to get 300 pax , 7500nm?

787 engines won't do it.

True, I thought of the same thing

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
Second, the GEnx72A1 will power the A359. Assuming that an output thrust of 72,000 lbf, that's still significantly less than the weakest engine on the 777.

Yes, I also thought that Max. Thrust is 72.000 pounds, which is significantly less than most airlines use on their 772ER, which is between the 90000-95000 pounds of thrust range.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
GE has offered Airbus a 75,000 lbf variant.

Even if, the A350 has got to be smaller in at least one way, less cargo, less passengers, or less range than the B777-200ER. I'd say to match to range, cargo and amount of pax. They'd need at least 85,000 pounds of thrust.

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
trex8
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 38):
That's without the 18 777"s for AC 15 777's for AI, and 5 777F for AF though, including those this would add up to 718 orders.

good point but its still not anywhere near 900!
 
zvezda
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 38):
Even if, the A350 has got to be smaller in at least one way, less cargo, less passengers, or less range than the B777-200ER. I'd say to match to range, cargo and amount of pax. They'd need at least 85,000 pounds of thrust.

Gigneil is correct. 75,000 lbs thrust would suffice because the A350-900 (262,000 kg MTOW) will be a lot lighter than the B777-200ER (297,560 kg MTOW).
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:33 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):

You have to keep in mind, this plane will be lighter than an A330-300, which is MUCH lighter than a 777-200ER.

Weight (or the lack of it) is critical for aircraft efficiency.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):

GE has offered Airbus a 75,000 lbf variant.

Judging from the thrust the A389 is going to be much more efficient than the 772.

Others have noted that Boeing could do a wingtip treatment (772LR) and engine change to the 777 to keep it competitive to the A389. But with 20+ years of wing development, there is going to be about a 10% drag difference that Boeing would find tough to overcome...

I'm curious is Airbus can make a Li-Al airframe as efficient as a composite airframe.

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 38):

Even if, the A350 has got to be smaller in at least one way, less cargo, less passengers, or less range than the B777-200ER. I'd say to match to range, cargo and amount of pax. They'd need at least 85,000 pounds of thrust.

Or better flaps and a more efficient wing.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
intothinair
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:24 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40):
75,000 lbs thrust would suffice because the A350-900 (262,000 kg MTOW) will be a lot lighter than the B777-200ER (297,560 kg MTOW).

Ok then, the average thrust for a 777-200ER per engine is between 90,000 and 95,000 pounds of thrust, so let's say 92,500 pounds of thrust.
However, the A350-900 has 12% less MTOW, so, let's reduce the 92,500 pounds of thrust by 12%, this would equal to 81,400 pounds of thrust.
Ok, it's close here, it could work with 75,000 pounds, though the plane would be under powered. I still think that the A350-900 is either going to have to have less range, less passengers, or less cargo capacity than the B777-200ER.
Unless they want an under powered aircraft.

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 42):
Ok, it's close here, it could work with 75,000 pounds, though the plane would be under powered.

It would be, if all other factors were equal - drag, wing, etc...

They're not, so just going by percentages won't work.

Regards,
Frank
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astuteman
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 41):
Others have noted that Boeing could do a wingtip treatment (772LR) and engine change to the 777 to keep it competitive to the A389. But with 20+ years of wing development, there is going to be about a 10% drag difference that Boeing would find tough to overcome...

Just a thought - one of the REALLY clever things about the 787 is that Boeing have made it 10t - 15t lighter than the A330, AND more capable. No matter what Airbus do in developing the A330 to the A350 - it will always be a much heavier airplane, and thus uncompetitive with the 787.

In the same way, I think Airbus have been very clever in repositioning the A350 ABOVE the 787, and into 772 territory.
If Boeing introduce substantial improvements to the 772 series, it will move even further away from the A350 into a different market.
I don't think it is possible to improve the 772 to be more directly competitive with the A350 - it's a 295t plane competing against a 245t - 260t plane.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 41):
Weight (or the lack of it) is critical for aircraft efficiency.

As with 787 vs A330, if you want to attack a competitor aircraft, you're better going in from underneath - it's almost impossible to respond without an all-new aircraft.
 
N79969
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:26 pm

I think it is entirely conceivable that the A350 could be more efficient than B772ER by many measures. As Lehpron points out, they will able to utilize new materials and technology that was not available when the 777 was being developed.

The direction that Airbus is taking the A350 is an implicit concession that the A340 (particularly the original series) is a failed program.
 
zvezda
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 41):

I'm curious is Airbus can make a Li-Al airframe as efficient as a composite airframe.

Could one make an aircraft of concrete as efficient as one of wood? Composites have a dramatically better strength-to-weight ratio than that of Li-Al alloys.

Quoting N79969 (Reply 45):
I think it is entirely conceivable that the A350 could be more efficient than B772ER by many measures.

It is more than conceivable. It is all but assured. The A350-900 will kill the B777-200ER. We may already have seen the last B777-200ER order.
 
Glom
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting Zvezda:
It is more than conceivable. It is all but assured. The A350-900 will kill the B777-200ER. We may already have seen the last B777-200ER order.

A great shame given how incredibly cool the 772ER is. Does that mean that a 7810 will be around sooner rather than later?

How long will the 777 last? Will it be long enough to allow the 747ADV to have a decent lifetime before a 773/744 huge twin is built?
 
zvezda
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 47):
A great shame given how incredibly cool the 772ER is. Does that mean that a 7810 will be around sooner rather than later?

If someone has an urgent need for more B777-200ERs and can't pick them up used, then we may see more orders. The earliest we might see either the A350-900 or a B787-10 is 2011 or more likely 2012.

Quoting Glom (Reply 47):
How long will the 777 last? Will it be long enough to allow the 747ADV to have a decent lifetime before a 773/744 huge twin is built?

The biggest factor in when we see an all new B777-300/B747 replacement is whether or not the B747Adv gets built. Once the B747Adv go/no go decision has been made, the next big decision for Boeing will probably be which to build first: a replacement for the B737NG/B757 or a replacement for the B777-300/B747. Boeing is likely to try to delay both as long as possible. Boeing are very careful, so I don't think they will build a B737NG/B757 replacement until they start having trouble selling the B737NG. The B777-300/B747 replacement is even more likely to be put off as long as possible. It seems unlikely that Airbus will produce anything in this market segment, so as long as Boeing has the market to itself, there is no reason to spend many $billions on R&D. If the B747Adv is built, I think the B777-300/B747 replacement will follow the B787 by at least ten years. If the B747Adv is not built, then the B777-300/B747 replacement could follow the B787 by as little as four years.
 
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RE: A359 30% More Efficent Than 772?

Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 49):
The B777-300/B747 replacement is even more likely to be put off as long as possible. It seems unlikely that Airbus will produce anything in this market segment, so as long as Boeing has the market to itself, there is no reason to spend many $billions on R&D. If the B747Adv is built, I think the B777-300/B747 replacement will follow the B787 by at least ten years. If the B747Adv is not built, then the B777-300/B747 replacement could follow the B787 by as little as four years.

well the 773/747 market has also the A346 in it so no Boeing does not have the market to itself. There are a lot airlines replacing the 747 with 773 or 346. the only market niche is where the A310 or B762 and eventually 787-800 will be but then again it is a question if there is a market for such planes today ( Japan not included Smile)