kalakaua
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Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:32 pm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/226955_leahy03.html

Airbus says A350 ready to take on 787
Second version will challenge 777, P-I told

By JAMES WALLACE

...

Leahy said at least four airlines will announce orders for more than 100 A350s at the air show, which begins June 13. The bulk of those are expected to come from Emirates, for as many as 50 planes, although Leahy refused to identify any customers.

...

One factor that works in favor of the fuel-efficient 787 and A350 is the "stubbornly high price of fuel," Chew said. "That makes both propositions more attractive right now. But a lot will depend, at the end of the day, on how much it will cost to own and operate. We are waiting to hear what Airbus presents. If they price the A350 attractively enough, we would take a look."

...

Although the fuselage cross-section of the A350 remains the same as that of the A330, the inside of the fuselage has been revised to provide more room for passengers as well as more seats, Leahy said. By moving the aft pressure bulkhead and relocating the crew rest under the cockpit, the A350-800 will have about 15-18 more seats than the A330-200, Leahy said, and about 30 more seats than the 787-8. The bigger A350-900 is also gaining seats over the A330-300 with the addition of a couple fuselage frames.

...

"Boeing argues they have a little more headroom on their plane, so we changed the shape of the sidewall to have similar width," Leahy said of the recent A350 changes.

The A350-800, with more seats than the 787-8, will be able to fly about 300 miles farther than the Boeing plane with about 4 percent lower fuel burn per seat and lower maintenance cost per seat, Leahy said. The cash operating costs to the airline per seat will be less than for the 787-8, as will the plane's empty weight per seat, he said.

And not only does the A350-900 beat the 787-9 on any seat-cost comparison, but it is also beats the 777-200, Leahy said.

"We have about same number of seats, and I can fly about same range, within a couple hundred miles, but burn 30 percent less fuel and I'm doing it with a much quieter airplane," Leahy said of the A350-900 versus the 777-200.

...

Leahy said if Airbus had been able to offer the A350 in its present form, those campaigns, and others won by the 787, might have turned out different.

"We have been listening to the airlines and going through the design loops," Leahy said.

"Our customers said we should have done this a year ago. But that's water over the dam."

---

Bring it on, counters Boeing's Carson.

[Edited 2005-06-03 12:33:58]
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flyAUA
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:00 pm

Bring it on indeed   

Glad to see we have two aircraft competing on the same level from both manufacturers now 

Regardless of the fact that Leahy made it sound like the A350 and B787 are almost identical, I am sure that each will have pros and cons over the other. Airlines will make purchases from either side and it will be interesting to see who picks which.

[Edited 2005-06-03 13:13:43]
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Sjoerd
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:06 pm

Things will depend on wether an airline can fill the A350, if it can it's the best choice. If not the B787 is.

Sjoerd
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ATLFlyer323
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:48 pm

Wow a lot of talk for an airplane that many said was dead in the water, they can promise but can they deliver? Another problem in my opinion is the fact they haven't really shown us anything, when do they plan on this plane entering service??
Just my thoughts,
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flyAUA
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 3):
do they plan on this plane entering service??

Initially Airbus stated 2010, and recently they said, probably to be more realistic, 2011-2012.
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hz747300
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:05 pm

The headline should read: "What Do You Expect Leahy to Say"

Seriously though, what would want him say. However, what he is saying is like a little kid,...my bike is better than your bike. Even though his bike has been redesigned four times and orders are as elusive as a disease free prostitute.

He may surprise us, but I do not believe him.

To answer your question Brandon, they say that it will be two years behind the 787 entering service. Which is fine, it is a design starting from scratch now--finally.

[Edited 2005-06-03 14:05:52]
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keesje
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:20 pm

Leahy (Airbus)
"We have about same number of seats, and I can fly about same range, within a couple hundred miles, but burn 30 percent less fuel and I'm doing it with a much quieter airplane," Leahy said of the A350-900 versus the 777-200.

Carson (Boeing)
"We would be pretty happy with that as a 777 competitor, the 777 is still preferred by passengers. It is roomy inside and has high ceilings."

 boggled 
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:21 pm

Any pics of what the A350 may look like? Not seen any to date.
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dutchjet
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:29 pm

Question: the A359 sounds more and more like a 777 competitor, no problem there, but how will the A350 impact A346 sales???

More and more, it sounds like the A350 series will bring the A333/A343/A346 programs to an end......by focusing so much on the 777ER market, is Airbus forgetin that they already offer a 777ER competitor, better known as the A346?
 
Boogyjay
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Question: the A359 sounds more and more like a 777 competitor, no problem there, but how will the A350 impact A346 sales???

The A350 will compete the B777-200ER whereas the A346 competes the B777-300ER.

The A359 could indeed affect some of the A346 sales, but I'd think in a positive manner (with a package offer like the B773 can be sold with the B772). The A346 has still its own market (in Airbus' product line I mean  Wink ). And don't forget the A346 keeps being under improvement with the HGW version for example.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 5):
my bike is better than your bike. Even though his bike has been redesigned four times

Actually, that could be a good explanation for the better plane.

But anyway, all that is marketing I'm always surprised to see how people take those things seriously. I know marketing people, because I work beside them, and they are really disconnected from reality.
It was the same, if not worse, with Boeing and their brand new looking revolutionary aircraft, the 7E7 "dreamliner" (LOL) which finally looks exactly like another Boeing plane.
 
micstatic
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:05 pm

Good luck to both airframe producers. We certainly will all benefit from the competition. However, when it comes to CEO's in this industry, Leahy is a sensationalist. I think of far greater concern for Airbus, is the delay of the A380. Imagine next if performance goals cannot be met...?
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Danny
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 11):
I think of far greater concern for Airbus, is the delay of the A380. Imagine next if performance goals cannot be met...?

Surely they are concerned although you have to acknowledge that such delays happen with all major aircraft developments (should I mention 777?).
Regarding performance they already said that A380 is exceeding expectations so no worries.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:52 pm

Everything about the "new" A350 sounds really nice but what I don't get is, why has airbus failed to come up with an A300/310, B767 replacement, to compete with the 787-3? To start with, Airbus became what it is today by first realizing that there is a market for a high capacity short/medium range twin, and came up with the A300 30 years ago. Now, all Airbus is doing is trying to beat the 787-8's range and economics by stuffing in more seats and increasing the MTOW, and what we have is a plane that will most probably be great when flying 300 people over 8000 mile sectors but the operating costs for routes like LHR-AMS and FRA-MUC will be nothing like those advertised by Mr Leahy.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Duh, of course he is going to say his airplane is "better". Boeing says the 787 is "better". The marketplace will decide who's is better.

787: 366 firm orders to date
A-350: 90 including EK, Air Europa and HP/US.

And yes, if they would have changed the aircraft a year ago and listened to the potential customers then (instead of assuming what they wanted), we may have had a different outcome. This is no one's fault but Airbus. It is a classic, textbook business error.

Everyone (except keesje of course) said it was initally a crappy offering-a knee jerk reaction and everyone saw it; except Airbus.

Now that they have corrected it, this could turn out to be a very interesting battle.
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Leahy - he needs some Pepto for that diarrhea of the mouth problem he has.  irked 
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Boogyjay
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 13):
but what I don't get is, why has airbus failed to come up with an A300/310, B767 replacement, to compete with the 787-3?

Yes, I keep wondering the same thing. But I don't worry: if we here, or people at Boeing think about this market, I'm sure some people at Airbus do it too. They have people analysing the market, and if they think they can make money with a A300/310 replacement, then they will come up with something.

We don't really know what the numbers for the A350 are, but if they can make it as (more) competitive as (than) the B787, Airbus may answer this high density-short/medium haul market with a slightly changed wing for example. I'd enjoy a A305 project announcement: flying in a widebody for short/medium haul is so nice  Smile.

In a 2-class configuration, a 250-300 seater A350 would be too heavy for short/medium haul, but as I stated above, do we know the actual figures?
So, a A305 could be a lightened A350 = a double-lightened A330.

Poor A330, they put you on a hard diet  melting   Big grin
 
kalakaua
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 5):
The headline should read: "What Do You Expect Leahy to Say"



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
Duh, of course he is going to say his airplane is "better". Boeing says the 787 is "better". The marketplace will decide who's is better.

NSS... Duh! I'm just highlighting what Leahy has to say on recent characteristics of the A350 as described by him, which happens to look "better" than what Boeing is offering. And that's what we're here to argue about...
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KL808
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
course he is going to say his airplane is "better".

I think the title is a bit misleading.

The article does not mention Leahy saying quote un-qoute that the A350 is "better", rather he said:

"I'm now getting an airplane out there that is more than competitive with the 787, and you will see orders very soon,"

he just states that the aircraft "is more than competitive with the B787"

To me that means its just as good.

Anyways back to the topic, what is the 4th airline he's talking about?

They have EK, HP/US, and Air Europa.

Is it LOT or QR ???

I still dont believe that the 6 UFO orders for the B787 is for LOT, rather I think those where ET's.

Drew
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kalakaua
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:25 pm

Forget about the damn title, and just read the article for goodness sakes.

[Edited 2005-06-03 16:27:48]
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SNATH
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 7):
Any pics of what the A350 may look like? Not seen any to date.

Take a picture of an A330, write "2 engines 2 make money" on its side with big black letters, and you pretty much have it.  Smile

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 13):

Alex, Kalos hr8es sto a.net!

Tony
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kalakaua
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
he just states that the aircraft "is more than competitive with the B787"
To me that means its just as good.

Haha! The key word is "more".

If it was just as good, he would have said, "is competitive with the B787."
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Danny
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
I still dont believe that the 6 UFO orders for the B787 is for LOT, rather I think those where ET's.

Indeed most of us believed that these 6 were for LOT (specially after Mr. Wallace article). Although yesterday several Polish sources quoted LOT Chairman saying that they are "very seriously considering A350" and will make announcement in coming weeks (Le Bourget?).
 
NYC777
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
I still dont believe that the 6 UFO orders for the B787 is for LOT, rather I think those where ET's.

They're not LO nor are they ET. ET signed a firm contract for 10 787s but Boeing has not put it up on their orders page as they are waiting for final approval from the US EXIM bank. 787 order to be finalize this month - VN, AC (as stated by Milton), probably 2-3 of the Chinese carriers. Still waiting on CO.

The other orders for the A350 will porbably come from lessors.

I would expect that Boeing will have some significant 787 orders at Paris including orders from Lessors (ILFC and GECAS) as well as 2-3 orders from airlines. AirNZ has stated that they're looking to exercise options on the 787 (probably go for the -9).
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PHXinterrupted
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
Everyone (except keesje of course) said it was initally a crappy offering-a knee jerk reaction and everyone saw it; except Airbus.

You forgot Dutchjet and a couple of die-hard Germans. LOL
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sebolino
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
The marketplace will decide who's is better.

787: 366 firm orders to date
A-350: 90 including EK, Air Europa and HP/US.

Actually, you are implying that the marketplace has already decided, which is a nonsense.
 
agill
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:30 pm

Discussions about semantics are always interesting  Yeah sure
 
stirling
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:40 pm

Would the A350 program invalidate the previous Airbus position that 4 is better than 2 for long-range operations?

If the A350 is projected to be only marginally better than the 787/777; is this enough to compensate for the head-start Boeing has?
I can't help but think back to the DC8 and 707 competition. By the time Douglas got their program up and rolling, the 707 had already acquired a tremendous "head-of-steam", even though, as some editorial analysis through the years has suggested; the DC8 aircraft was a much better aircraft. One only look for the service life of the DC8, and it's adaptability across many generations of modalities; as one element of proof in this argument.

Echoing the words of Kaneporta1, this obsession with "Range" is curious to me....as if the markets of less than 7000 miles will suddenly no longer be important. Where is the medium-haul, high-capacity aircraft? The A330 has been tried by some airlines inserting it into "A300" type routes, only for the reality of the aircraft's economics come to light.

Does this aversion to short range aircraft correlate to in anyway to re-sale value?
I was reading something about ANA looking to replace "ALL" their widebodies with the 777. The summary concluded, that since most of these would be mid-range models, (for intra-Asia flights) they don't have the re-sale value as similar aircraft of much longer range capabilities.
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Leskova
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 25):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
The marketplace will decide who's is better.

787: 366 firm orders to date
A-350: 90 including EK, Air Europa and HP/US.

Actually, you are implying that the marketplace has already decided, which is a nonsense

Aside from the numbers being guesses based on rumors... the actual numbers for firm orders for both are much lower, with the A350 currently still at 0 and the B787, if I recall correctly, somewhere in the 120-140 region...

Regards,
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KL808
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:49 pm

If SQ where to order the B787 today as an example, when would they possibly get their first aircraft?

If it is later than the EIS date of the A350, and Airbus gives a good discount because it being a launch customer, I think we could see SQ go for the A350.

Of course bear in mind that SQ is still watching the market closely with regards to the LCC market in its back yard, therefore I dont see an order till late this year or early next year.

Drew
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:51 pm

SO why did it take forever for Airbus to deliver the A318?
 
SNATH
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting B737200300 (Reply 30):
SO why did it take forever for Airbus to deliver the A318?

I believe this had to do with the engines not being not ready on time...

Tony
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mham001
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
Anyways back to the topic, what is the 4th airline he's talking about?

They have EK, HP/US, and Air Europa.

The Chinese CAAC have instructed Shenzhen Airlines to purchase the A350..expect a LOI of 10 at the airshow.
 
MarcoT
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):

787: 366 firm orders to date
A-350: 90 including EK, Air Europa and HP/US

Again, those you provided are a mixture of announced commitments and credible rumours, but firm orders they are not. Why insisting to use a term with a specific meaning in a completely non standard way?

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):

Everyone (except keesje of course) said it was initally a crappy offering-a knee jerk reaction and everyone saw it; except Airbus.

Now that they have corrected it, this could turn out to be a very interesting battle.

Exactly what have they corrected in their offering?
The A350 had at least since the beginning of this year being described as a 4,5+ billion project with an all new composite wing, an all new Li-Al alloy fuselage and a bleed air version of 787 engines, ie pretty much an almost all new aircraft, retaining only fuselage dimension and internal systems from the A330. A much more radical changes than say from the 737 classic to the NG. Only people willing to blind themselves have continued to devalue it as a warmed up A330...

What apparently is new of lately is that the fuselage will be half composite and half Li-Al and some minor internal configuration changes -as of Lehay interview- ie thing that don't make o break an aircraft.
If really the A350 was crappy before then it is still crappy now, and if it is competitive now it was also competive also 6 months ago...

Marco
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atmx2000
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:10 am

Does anyone have payload weight data for the A358 and A359?
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keesje
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
Everyone (except keesje of course) said it was initally a crappy offering-a knee jerk reaction and everyone saw it; except Airbus.

Most people here thought Airbus' only chance to survive was an all new design, a composite fuselage & introducing bleedless all over, instead of just new engines/wing.

Well that just hasn't happened, has it? and its selling..

Of course Leahy says the A350 it an all new aircraft.

However all the A330/340 lessons learned / improvements will be in.

We just ought to know better. If it works, don't fix it.



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MarcoT
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 13):

Everything about the "new" A350 sounds really nice but what I don't get is, why has airbus failed to come up with an A300/310, B767 replacement, to compete with the 787-3? To start with, Airbus became what it is today by first realizing that there is a market for a high capacity short/medium range twin, and came up with the A300 30 years ago.

Because not always you're able to do all what you want to do.

The A330 have already an heavier structure than the A300, so it was not an option to shrink it.
You'll get a much heavier airplane than the A300, and even a new wing will not be enough (apart from being too expensive).
Updating the A300 with say fly-by-wire, cockpit communality and eventually a new wing with the A330 was deemed either not attractive enough for the airlines or too expensive for the projected market size.
Actually I gather that Airbus tinklered with various incarnations of those concepts for all these years, but failed to attract enough interest in any one of them to justify launching any one of them.

Probably (at least from my naive viewpoint) Boeing is able to offer the 787-3 because the new technology for the fuselage construction lend itself very well and relatively cheap to the possibility of tailoring the fuselage to various strength requirements.
Since Airbus apparently is not going use this technology in the A350, probably they're just simply unable to offer a short range version of the A350 at an acceptable price.
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 20):
Take a picture of an A330, write "2 engines 2 make money" on its side with big black letters, and you pretty much have it. Smile

Ah, I see your point
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:38 am

Until Airbus (Leahy - not so much Airbus) figures out that reducing seat costs through incremental capacity increases isn't what airlines are looking for he'll always be wrong. Average aircraft size has been getting smaller for 10 years and will continue to do so. So you have to find smaller variants with better efficiency.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:59 am

I think Airbus is going to find out pretty quickly that the more "new" technology they put into the A350, the more expensive the plane will get. Putting in an all-new wing design, using GENx and Trent 1000 derivatives, a likely new tail design and switching to aluminum-lithium fuselage structure are all very expensive propositions.

Besides, Boeing could likely "stretch" the 787 to a size larger than the 787-9 and use an uprated GENx or Trent 1000 series engine to compete against A350-9, while still maintaining the 787's biggest advantage: the interior cabin air pressurization equivalent of only 6,000 feet altitude, which means more comfort for passengers and cabin crews.
 
trex8
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 39):
while still maintaining the 787's biggest advantage: the interior cabin air pressurization equivalent of only 6,000 feet altitude, which means more comfort for passengers and cabin crews.

you gotta be kidding, like anyone would even really notice! certianly no one who lives in Denver!
 
brons2
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:07 am

Nobody with 2 brain cells in their head can seriously think the A358 competes with the 788-8 anymore. It's 30 seats bigger, according to the article. It's pretty much the exact size of the 787-9. So this pretty much invalidates Leahy's seat mile arguments, as they are talking about airplanes in two different seat classes.

The A359 may have a seat mile advantage against the 772 but if you look across a whole product line, like AC probably did, it's 3 out of 4 for Boeing.

220 seat: Boeing 787-8 vs Airbus ?
Airbus does not offer a product in this range.
Advantage Boeing

260 seat: Boeing 787-9 vs Airbus A350-800
Advantage Boeing

300 seat: Boeing 777-200ER vs Airbus A350-900
Advantage Airbus

350 seat: Boeing 777-300ER vs Airbus A340-600
Advantage Boeing

On narrower campaigns which just focus on the 260-300 seat range, Airbus may indeed have an advantage as the A359 will definitely have better economics than the 777-200ER.

However for those that consider the 220 seat range, or a wide range like AC, Boeing definitely has the upper hand.

My .02.
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redflyer
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
you have to acknowledge that such delays happen with all major aircraft developments (should I mention 777?).

The 777 encountered delays? I wasn't aware of that. I recall Boeing saying EIS would be June (I forget the exact date) 1995 on the day the plane made it's maiden flight, and if I recall correctly it entered into service on the exact date projected.

Or did I interpret your comment incorrectly??
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RayChuang
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 40):
you gotta be kidding, like anyone would even really notice! certianly no one who lives in Denver!

You'll be real surprised how much more comfortable people are at 6,000 feet altitude versus 9,000 feet altitude cabin air pressure equivalent. You forget a good number of people can get sick from high-altitude sickness due to lower oxygen levels, hence the reason why people not acclimated to high altitudes have trouble walking around in places like La Paz in Bolivia.
 
YULMRS
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 41):
220 seat: Boeing 787-8 vs Airbus ?
Airbus does not offer a product in this range.
Advantage Boeing

260 seat: Boeing 787-9 vs Airbus A350-800
Advantage Boeing

300 seat: Boeing 777-200ER vs Airbus A350-900
Advantage Airbus

350 seat: Boeing 777-300ER vs Airbus A340-600
Advantage Boeing

I think you're right for the 787-8, 777-200 and 777-300 ? But on what is based you're explanation on the 787-9 ? 2 new planes which aren't even completely designed yet ...

Airbus seems to be pretentious in their announcements on that AC, we'll see if it reaches their hopes in 2012 ... But 30% is incredibly pretentious ...
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MarcoT
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 38):

Until Airbus (Leahy - not so much Airbus) figures out that reducing seat costs through incremental capacity increases isn't what airlines are looking for he'll always be wrong. Average aircraft size has been getting smaller for 10 years and will continue to do so. So you have to find smaller variants with better efficiency.

This for sure must be the reason for which the still-waiting-for-launch 747Adv will seat more than the 744 and not less
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:16 am

And the battle continues !!! (where is UDO when we need him ?)  Smile

As of now none of those planes haveflown, all is Media Hype and PR cranked to the top. So basically I dont believe either one, why?

Because we dont know the real benefits of an all composite fuselage in SERVICE, we dont know the reliability of Bledless engines.
Because we dont know the improvements of a Al Li Fuselage and the new bonding by Airbus, We dont know what the economics of the plane.

For example I know that the new wing of the 787 will be very advanced and thin, but I dont know the weight of the new engines, so I dont know how much the engine will help the bending relief the wing will experiment while climbing and cruising, if the wing is thin and the engine heavy the will be close to the fuselage, but it will not help the outside part of the wing bending movement (maybe thats why th e wings appear going up on the artists drawings, if the engine is light it can be moved out thus helping the wing and reducing weight, but we dont know, as of know is only a battle of especulation and puting even more promises on the table that they MAY OR MAY NOT be able to deliver.

In the end all this war of I CAN DO BETTER might hurt one or both manefacturers BIG TIME remember what happened to Douglas witht the DC-8 and then again with the DC-10 and then yet again with the MD-11...

Ill wait till Paris is over, but in the mean time Ill entertan myself with this battle of the unknowns..!

Best Regards
TRB
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DAYflyer
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 33):
Again, those you provided are a mixture of announced commitments and credible rumours, but firm orders they are not. Why insisting to use a term with a specific meaning in a completely non standard way?

These are orders which are firm according to Boeing.

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 33):
Exactly what have they corrected in their offering?

You answered your own question. They have corrected the number of seats, the increased use of composites to lighten it and reduced the thickness of the interior walls and copied Boeing's unique lighting and added bigger windows. I would say those are fairly substantial, IMO.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 35):
Well that just hasn't happened, has it? and its selling..

Yes it has, and now it is selling. Before it was not. Airbus has made numerous changes to the design to get it to sell.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 39):
Besides, Boeing could likely "stretch" the 787 to a size larger than the 787-9 and use an uprated GENx or Trent 1000 series engine to compete against A350-9, while still maintaining the 787's biggest advantage: the interior cabin air pressurization equivalent of only 6,000 feet altitude, which means more comfort for passengers and cabin crews.

Boeing has said that any stretched 787 would bump into the 777-200 and they are not going in that direction. I believe they will re-do the 777 family incorporating the new technology from the 787 to compete with the 350. So far the 777 seems to be holding it's own....

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 44):
Airbus seems to be pretentious in their announcements on that AC, we'll see if it reaches their hopes in 2012 ... But 30% is incredibly pretentious ...

How so? Boeing said 30% improvement between 767 and 787. They also said 25% over DC-9 with the 717.
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B2707SST
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Question: the A359 sounds more and more like a 777 competitor, no problem there, but how will the A350 impact A346 sales???

More and more, it sounds like the A350 series will bring the A333/A343/A346 programs to an end......by focusing so much on the 777ER market, is Airbus forgetin that they already offer a 777ER competitor, better known as the A346?

Absolutely. If the A359 is a 772 competitor, then it is even more strongly an A343/A345 competitor, especially since the latter is such a heavy airplane (it has one of the highest OEW/seat ratios in commercial aviation). The A350 program may finally give Airbus a worthy 772ER competitor, but the costs are high:

- A330-200: killed by A358/B789
- A330-300: killed by A359
- A340-200: dead already
- A340-300: killed by A359/772ER
- A340-500: killed by A359 and possibly 772LR (too early to tell)
- A340-600: sole survivor or killed by 773ER?

Randy Baseler described the launch of the A350 as a "great day for Boeing" because it confirmed the superiority of the "2 engines 4 long haul" model and basically forced Airbus to scrap their long-term product strategy. Definitely heavy on the spin -- I'm sure they would have preferred that Airbus continued concentrating on the A380 and let them run away with the middle of the market -- but there are elements of truth in Boeing's argument.

--B2707SST
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kaneporta1
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RE: Leahy Says A350's Better Than 787 Or 777

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 36):
Because not always you're able to do all what you want to do.

The A330 have already an heavier structure than the A300, so it was not an option to shrink it.
You'll get a much heavier airplane than the A300, and even a new wing will not be enough (apart from being too expensive).
Updating the A300 with say fly-by-wire, cockpit communality and eventually a new wing with the A330 was deemed either not attractive enough for the airlines or too expensive for the projected market size.

Me not flying my own private A380 is not being able to do what I want.
For the biggest airplane manufacturer in the world not to able to develop a new medium capacity, medium range aircraft is not the same. Like Boeing, it will have to be a new design, NOT an A332 derivative, maybe apart from the all familiar 222 inch Airbus fuselage. There has been discussion about the A305 and although there is no such airplane on the drawing board, that's pretty much the idea of a new aircraft, something as big as the A300/310 with new wings, engines, FBW and sub-systems, that would perform well on high demand short/medium haul routes, with economics attractive enough for even LCCs to operate it. As far as demand is concerned, even if half of the 1200 A300/310s B767s that still fly, those which operate short/medium haul routes today, need replacement by such an airplane, it's 600 units we're talking about.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers