mikefly562
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EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:47 am

It looks like the EU is very upset at Japan...

EU: Sent Japan Letter In March On Lack Of Airbus Sales
Dow Jones International News 06/03/05
author: James Simms

TOKYO (Dow Jones)--European Union Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson sent a letter to the Japanese government in March asking for clarification on why Airbus (ABI.YY), which has over half of the global commercial aircraft market, hasn't sold more planes in the Japanese market, an E.U. official said Friday.

The letter, which also covered other trade issues, follows one sent last year requesting more information on the Japanese government's aid to domestic corporations building around a third of the Boeing Co.'s (BA) new midsize, long-range 787 aircraft.

"We inquired about the purchase or non-purchase by Japanese airlines of Airbus" planes, Silvia Kofler, head of the press section at the European Commission Delegation in Tokyo, told Dow Jones Newswires.

Kofler said she was checking to see if further information on the letter sent to Japanese Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Shoichi Nakagawa could be released. A METI public relations official said the people that would be dealing with such a letter weren't available for comment.

Although Airbus has outsold Boeing in recent years in the rest of the world, Airbus is such a stranger in Japan that its chief commercial officer, John Leahy, has joked that its market share here is zero.

The revelation of another E.U. letter also comes after the transatlantic trade spat escalated earlier this week, with Brussels and Washington taking each other to the World Trade Organization over billions of dollars in subsidies to their respective plane makers.

Tuesday, Mandelson also put Tokyo on notice regarding its assistance of companies, like Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (7011.TO), building parts of the 787. He said he was refraining from starting a WTO case against Japan, but that Tokyo's actions were on his radar screen.

Kofler said the Japanese government has lined up $1.6 billion in royalty-based financing, adding she didn't have a further breakdown of the aid.

Analysts say the decades-long relationship between Boeing and major Japanese manufacturers has helped the Chicago-based company gain orders here. There's no doubt the firms have a big stake in the success of the 787.

Mitsubishi is designing and building the plane's wing - the first time a company other than Boeing will do so. Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (7270.TO) will handle design and assembly of the center wing stub, and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. (7012.TO) will provide part of the fuselage.

The companies built about 21% of the Boeing 777 airframe and 15% of the 767, but will be responsible for 35% of the 787. Boeing is even billing the 787 as "Made With Japan."

Japan has been the largest single-country international market for Boeing airplanes in dollar value and 78% of the airplanes ordered by Japanese customers have been Boeing products in the past decade, the jet maker says on its Web site. Boeing also says Japanese carriers make their purchasing decisions on purely commercial terms, not because of partial production here.
 
commavia
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Mikefly562 (Thread starter):
asking for clarification on why Airbus (ABI.YY), which has over half of the global commercial aircraft market, hasn't sold more planes in the Japanese market

"Why won't you buy our planes? The rest of the world has, so that means they must be superior to Boeing's, and thus you're just crazy for not buying them!"
 
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ERJ170
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:50 am

Sounds like somebody need to change their pampers.. pretty childish..
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clickhappy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:51 am

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Who isn't Airbus upset with?

I did not know the new Airbus CEO was a Mr. Wayne Kerr.

Airbus seems to have really come off the rails the past few weeks.

Odd.
 
NYC777
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:51 am

Ahh now we know how Europe is going to do business. If they win then they say "We're great and we're the best" If they don't win then they  cry   hissyfit 
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Boeing Nut
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:54 am

And I thought I was sick of Airbus before..................

What is thier freaking deal!?!?!?!?
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Who isn't Airbus upset with?

Good question. India, Poland, the UK, Japan..who's next?
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commavia
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Who isn't Airbus upset with?

You said it. They're basically bullying Air India, literally resorting to name calling directed at their competitor Boeing, and now they are "asking questions" about Japanese airlines buying Boeing aircraft, after Japanese airlines have been flying Boeings for 50 years! Are they kidding? Maybe all that R&D aid finally went to their heads!
 
N60659
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Who isn't Airbus upset with?

Antarctica maybe. But I could be wrong.

-N60659
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Are they kidding? Maybe all that R&D aid finally went to their heads!

Nah...chalk it up to all the paint fumes wafting off those A380s  Wink
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:58 am

You know, I thought Boeing's "Press Release" (more like bitch release) after the Iberia order was low and embarassing, but this is just sad. First A-I, two French users blaming Poland for the EU constitution failure because of the F-16 purchase and rumors that LOT bought 787s, and then this!? What is going on over there?

I guess all big companies go through phases like this, but jeez.

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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
You said it. They're basically bullying Air India, literally resorting to name calling directed at their competitor Boeing, and now they are "asking questions" about Japanese airlines buying Boeing aircraft, after Japanese airlines have been flying Boeings for 50 years! Are they kidding? Maybe all that R&D aid finally went to their heads!

You need a world view. Basically, the EU is doing what the US does: You want us to buy from you? You need to buy some stuff from us.

I guess you don't remember what happened when EL AL chose Airbus.

cheers

mariner
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clickhappy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:07 am

give it a rest mariner.

The US gives Israel a few billion in "aid" money every year, so they should buy US. It isn't the same arguement, unless the EU finances Japan (if so then I will stand corrected  Wink )
 
Leskova
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4):
Ahh now we know how Europe is going to do business. If they win then they say "We're great and we're the best" If they don't win then they (cry) (hissyfit)

Well... some in Europe learnt from the best in that regard...


Nonetheless - I really can't grasp what the EU is trying to achieve by this; it's really not like the Japanese government is, after receiving this letter, going to go to their airlines and say "Hey, folks, we just realized that you haven't been buying any Airbusses - change that immediately!".

At best, if this letter hadn't come out into the public, they'd have probably received a letter back saying "The airlines told us that Boeing made better overall offers"...

But that best option is gone now - the letter has leaked...

... and the EU has once again made certain that it looks like nothing more than a sore loser.

I'm very pro-EU - but some people in Brussels (and elsewhere) must finally realize one simple fact: the EU is not, I repeat: NOT, entitled to anything.

If they want market share, they have to offer something that the customers not only want, but also at a price and at conditions that the customer wants.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Who isn't Airbus upset with?

Has nothing to do with this letter - it was sent by the EU, not Airbus. And, no, the EU and Airbus are not the same... just thought I'd add that, because some people around here seem to be incapable of seeing the difference...

Regards,
Frank
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brons2
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
I did not know the new Airbus CEO was a Mr. Wayne Kerr.

Maybe it's Wayne Brady. And perhaps the contents of his letter read something like: "Why don't we have any Japanese Airbus orders? Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a bitch?"

 Wink  Wink  Wink
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Popfly
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:16 am

"The EU and Airbus are not the same..." That's becoming less and less believable.
 
hoya
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 13):
And, no, the EU and Airbus are not the same... just thought I'd add that, because some people around here seem to be incapable of seeing the difference...

EADS, which owns 80% of and derives most of its profits from Airbus, is partly owned by the French Government, which is part of the EU. Also, the UK, Germany, France, and Spain (all members of the EU) have loaned/given(depends on how one views the launch aid) significant amounts of money to Airbus, so basically the EU's interests are Airbus' interests. The two are directly linked.
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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
give it a rest mariner.

I don't remember mentioning it before. ?

And for the record, I agree. Given the aid that the US gives Israel, I think they should buy Boeing.

But that doesn't mean it is the aircraft the airline wants.

As to Japan - or any other country, incoluding India - you think that pressure isn't applied every day of the week by both the US and the EU to buy their products.

That would be totally naive.

cheers

mariner
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dutchjet
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:26 am

I find this new approach by Airbus very odd, and this approach is creating a lot of ill-will......its simply bad business. Boeing and Airbus compete head to head for just about every major airliner order......Airbus in the past years had done extraordinarily well, and, at a certain point, even was outselling Boeing. Not bad for an underdog that no one took seriously 25 years ago - lets not forget that Boeing had the advantage of a huge, established customer base.

In the past months, Boeing has had a very good run, landing some very important and very huge deals, good for Boeing! Airbus' response has been unprofessional......acting like a spoiled child. I really dont think that Airbus is making a lot of friends in India and Japan at the moment. Competiton is difficult, you win some, you lose some, and you move along to the next round....does Airbus think that after sending this letter to the Japanese government, the Japanese trade minister will call up ANA and JAL and ask them to order 40 or 50 A380s to get Airbus off his back?

Of course, there is always a lot of behind the scenes politics associated with airliner orders, airliners are expensive, the manufacture of airlines creates jobs, lots of money is involved, and politicians take notice and get involved. Is it right? Probably not. Does it happen? Of course it does. But this very vocal approach of Airbus, attacking and challenging orders that go to Boeing is not going to fly well with the world community.

Yes, the Japanese airlines have a primarily Boeing fleet, the question is.....so what?

[Edited 2005-06-03 22:30:38]
 
commavia
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
You need a world view.

I already have one, thank you, it just isn't yours, apparently.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Basically, the EU is doing what the US does

I don't care what you say about the U.S., Israel, Taiwan, or whatever, I cannot remember a single time -- ever -- at which point either Boeing and/or the U.S. government have basically been fighting with so many different airlines and/or countries about aircraft orders as Airbus is right now. Airbus is so pissed off because they thought that with the state aid, they would never lose their top spot and be able to undersell Boeing at every turn because they could afford to. Well, guess what, Boeing got competitive and Boeing's fighting back with products that customers want and the market demands. And they're winning, and Airbus hates it, and thus the pissing match we see going on right now with, among others, Air India, JAL, ANA, the Indian government, the Japanese government, etc.
 
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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
I already have one, thank you, it just isn't yours, apparently.

But you don't agree that world trade functions as a basic tit-for-tat?

In that case, why do think there is all this concern about the US trade imbalance with China?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
the U.S. government have basically been fighting with so many different airlines and/or countries about aircraft orders as Airbus is right now.

As far as a number of countries are concerned, the US doesn't need to fight.

The US foots much of the bill in the coutnries you name (and more), so when the US says "jump" the country in question is likely to say "how high"?

I do not think this is necessarily wrong. But I don't see the need to get "holier than thou" with the EU and Airbus.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
with so many different airlines and/or countries about aircraft orders as Airbus is right now.

I do not think a letter from the EU to Japan reminding that country of certain trade realities is "a fight", so, off hand, I can think of only one "fight" involving Airbus: India.

And are you seriously going to suggest that the government of India did not have an "opinion" on that deal?

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-06-03 22:41:47]
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kaitak
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:41 am

I have to say that while I'm normally a strong supporter of Airbus, I think their behaviour - not just towards LOT (heavy pressure to favour 350 over 787, although LO clearly prefers 787) and Air India/AI Exprfess - but generally, has been poor. Maybe Boeing and the US does the same, but there's no finesse. I agree that Japan is likely to become an Airbus free zone within the next few years (NH 32Xs and JL AB6s going?), but going public is very bad strategy, particularly as far as Asia is concerned. Loss of face and embarrassment are big issues there; Boeing seems to understand that. That said, Japan will want to maintain good relations with Europe, so perhaps something will be done to "encourage" one of the Japanese carriers to buy Airbuses ... JAL 380s, perhaps?

Mind you, I think the best way to teach Airbus a lesson is that when they win big orders at Paris, from EK or whoever, Air India should write to those airlines and get them to change their minds. See how Airbus likes THAT!!  Wink)
 
atmx2000
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
I guess you don't remember what happened when EL AL chose Airbus.



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
The US gives Israel a few billion in "aid" money every year, so they should buy US. It isn't the same arguement, unless the EU finances Japan (if so then I will stand corrected   )

The US gives plenty of aid to other countries, who aren't pressured to buy US jets more or less exclusively. Egypt for example. Israel (and Taiwan) get the pressure because the US sticks its neck out for them when it is not in the US commercial interests to do so.

As for Japan, McDD was never as successful as Boeing, especially during the 80s and 90s as it got pushed out by Boeing. Clearly Boeing knew something about how to succeed in Japan. Whether that is because they had superior products or superior relationships is for you to decide.
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daedaeg
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:43 am

Boeing and Japanese industry and even greater extent the US and Japan historically have a very close relationship. I think the EU is simply trying to find out what the secret is in this close relationship. The EU trade rep, in my opinion is doing what the European tax payers pay him to do. I wish him luck because cracking the Japanese market is going to require more incentives and investment.

In other news it looks like ANA may purchase up to 53 773's.  Smile
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...00101&sid=a57nWxMGnA9g&refer=japan
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Falcon84
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:46 am

Good God, is the EU and Airbus going to bitch like a bunch of woman eternally on PMS every time someone doesn't order some of their damn aircraft?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
But that doesn't mean it is the aircraft the airline wants.

Do you mind, Mariner, if I laugh my ass off at that statement?  Smile

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
I find this new approach by Airbus very odd, and this approach is creating a lot of ill-will......

I agree, and if they keep it up, they'll find their market share decreasing, not increasing, as airlines and the nations they're based in get turned off by this crybaby game. First India, now Japan, and it's done nothing to help their sales, has it?
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hz747300
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 6):
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
Who isn't Airbus upset with?

Good question. India, Poland, the UK, Japan..who's next?

You can probably throw the US in there too. Also, sounds like they are not pleased as punch with the peeps who wrote the EU constitution either!

I can't be to sure about that last one though, apparently based on the nightly news, the only thing happening in the world is the Michael Jackson trial.
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MarcoT
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):

The US gives Israel a few billion in "aid" money every year, so they should buy US. It isn't the same arguement, unless the EU finances Japan (if so then I will stand corrected )

Since the EU is also giving developement aid to Poland and the rest of recent Central European entries (albeit on a somewhat smaller scale) would then you agree that LOT (not to mention the remaining airlines) should buy only Airbus? And if not why not?

Note:
I fully know that all this is mooth since A ac can even have more American contents than B ones and viceversa... Still it irks me when I see such a selective application of an an argument...
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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Do you mind, Mariner, if I laugh my ass off at that statement?  

Laugh away. But then tell me that El Al did not want to buy (or lease, if you're going to be pedantic) some Airbus aricraft.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/1999/10/25/daily13.html

And that the US Secretary of State was not best pleased:

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-.../245/format/html/displaystory.html

cheers

mariner
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clickhappy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:04 am

MarcoT - your comment is confusing to me, are you saying that the EU should be able to put pressure on LOT to buy Airbus because of the aid the EU provides?

Because aren't they?
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
You need a world view. Basically, the EU is doing what the US does: You want us to buy from you? You need to buy some stuff from us.

That's right Mariner, and the US buys more Japanese products than the EU.
Keepin' it real.
 
MarcoT
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:06 am

Oh, the avalanche of self-righteous hipocrytes!

The existence of hidden barriers and de facto protectionism in Japan's internal market has always been a recurring mantra of US industry, and the question have been raised a few times at political level.

So if the EU raise the same question for the airplane trades what is so new/unprecedente/strange/scandalous?
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 29):
That's right Mariner, and the US buys more Japanese products than the EU.

Yes. I agree. I don't have a problem with all this. I am all in favor of the Japanese buying Boeing.

I don't even ask that it be the right aircraft for the job.

I simply do not understand why some posters need to get so hoity-toity with the EU and Airbus.

I don't regard the EU - or Airbus - as any fatal threat to the US - or Boeing.

cheers

mariner
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zvezda
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:08 am

This is just embarrassing. Our governments should mind their own business, not ours or anyone else's.
 
ikramerica
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:15 am

Japan makes up to 1/2 of the pieces of a Boeing Jet. They make only a token part of Airbus, who wants to keep a majority of the work in the EU. Japan air companies would be foolish not to favor Boeing all else being equal. It means jobs for the economy with more people able to afford to fly and needing to do so.

Why not get on their case for not buying more Mercedes, Jaguars and BMWs, too?

Further, why doesn't Airbus mention the many Euro carriers that are switch over to Airbus for less than obvious reasons.

Also, they seem to forget the dollar has changed drastically. 5 years ago, an airbus was far less in $ terms than it cost this winter.

Further, if Airbus wanted the business, why didn't they announce a Lower Gross Weight, SR version of the A380, or a lower gross weight, SR version of the A330-300, etc. They had plenty of time to do so.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:22 am

MarcoT - perhaps it is a language barrier, but I do not understand what you are talking about  Smile

One reason that Japan buys Boeing, apart from the fact that they make a large % of the parts, is due to the massive trade imbalance between the US and Japan. Is this what you are referring to?
 
MarcoT
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):

Good God, is the EU and Airbus going to bitch like a bunch of woman eternally on PMS every time someone doesn't order some of their damn aircraft?

They have learned from Boeing and the good ole Us of A  Smile
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
aloges
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:25 am

It's odd that I can't find a single thing about this online... can someone please provide a link?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
atmx2000
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 30):
The existence of hidden barriers and de facto protectionism in Japan's internal market has always been a recurring mantra of US industry, and the question have been raised a few times at political level.

So if the EU raise the same question for the airplane trades what is so new/unprecedente/strange/scandalous?

That these barriers exist is not in doubt, though they have weakened over the years as the Japanese have found that they now have to compete with the up-and-comers to win in international markets, so they have to choose best-of-breed.

But the EU isn't complaining about Japanese protectionism, it's complaining about Boeing winning despite the fact that Boeing is the incumbent manufacturer in Japanese majors' fleets. Boeing and the US frankly have more grounds for suspicion when it sees European airlines shifting to Airbus after being predominantly Boeing or McDD.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
I guess you don't remember what happened when EL AL chose Airbus.



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 12):
The US gives Israel a few billion in "aid" money every year, so they should buy US.



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
The US gives plenty of aid to other countries, who aren't pressured to buy US jets more or less exclusively.

....big difference that no one seems to have pointed out yet (forgive me if someone has) is that LY was state-owned at the time, whereas many other such carriers are/were not.

I can empathize Airbus' ado with AI/IC, but I don't sympathize with them at all-- I'm not privy, but I don't see what good can come out of their bitch-fest. In fact, what I see happening is them soon losing the IC order on top of the AI order as well.
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MarcoT
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 28):

MarcoT - your comment is confusing to me, are you saying that the EU should be able to put pressure on LOT to buy Airbus because of the aid the EU provides?

No. I'm just asking if you think that LOT 'should' do so, since you stated that 'EL AL should buy Boeing etc. etc.'

Marco
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clickhappy
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:42 am

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, esp. given that Poland bought F16's. If Poland wants to join the EU, and if LOT is state-owned, then I think LOT should buy Airbus.

Anyone have any numbers for the $$$ amount Poland receives from the US and the EU?
 
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mariner
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 38):
In fact, what I see happening is them soon losing the IC order on top of the AI order as well.

They may decide it is worth it. Or there may be considerably more to this than meets the eye. There may be political ramifications.

After all, if the Air India order isn't, at least in part, politicial, why does the final decision have to be made by the government, and not by the airline?

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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 21):
Mind you, I think the best way to teach Airbus a lesson is that when they win big orders at Paris, from EK or whoever, Air India should write to those airlines and get them to change their minds. See how Airbus likes THAT!!

LOL, I would love to see the faces on the geniuses who came up with the idea of "let's piss off Air India and the Indian Government" and then wonder in the future why they won't buy our planes (although I'm pretty sure they will - or at least some other airline from India will).  laughing 

I'm curious as to why Airbus hasn't gotten into a slinging match with Air Canada or some of the other Airbus customers who've ordered Boeing lately. Seems they're only interested in going after Boeing only customers.
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atmx2000
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 38):
....big difference that no one seems to have pointed out yet (forgive me if someone has) is that LY was state-owned at the time, whereas many other such carriers are/were not.

Since private ownership of airlines is a relatively new phenomena in many countries, I would expect many of the countries that received US aid have state airlines, and many of those ordered Airbus. And it should also be noted that Israel receives aid from Europe as well, yet it isn't really enough to make them buy Airbus. However, what Israel doesn't get is much political support from them, and officials of certain countries are prone to referring to them as a "sh@&$$ little country."
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dutchjet
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 42):


I'm curious as to why Airbus hasn't gotten into a slinging match with Air Canada or some of the other Airbus customers who've ordered Boeing lately. Seems they're only interested in going after Boeing only customers.

I think that you answered your own question - Air Canada flies a large A32X fleet and, atleast for now, has the A330/340 in its fleet - how can Airbus go public with negative comments about one of its largest customers. Same is true for NW - Airbus must have thought that NW would go with the A350 as a followup to its A330 fleet, that 787 order must have hurt, but Airbus could would not dare to piss off NW with negative media. What is the old expression? Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 38):


I can empathize Airbus' ado with AI/IC, but I don't sympathize with them at all-- I'm not privy, but I don't see what good can come out of their bitch-fest. In fact, what I see happening is them soon losing the IC order on top of the AI order as well.

Interesting point - India is a difficult place for the manufacturers to do business, especially when selling aircraft to Air India and Indian Airlines and the process is influenced by the government......if Airbus is too agressive, it could run into trouble with the IC order.
 
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 42):
I'm curious as to why Airbus hasn't gotten into a slinging match with Air Canada or some of the other Airbus customers who've ordered Boeing lately. Seems they're only interested in going after Boeing only customers.

Air India operates Airbus planes as well, specifically a large fleet of A310s.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 41):
They may decide it is worth it. Or there may be considerably more to this than meets the eye. There may be political ramifications.

They aren't going to change IC's narrowbody order as it makes perfect sense for Indian Airlines to add more A320s. However, if Airbus keeps it up I wouldn't be suprised if any Indian Airlines widebody order goes in the other direction.
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ikramerica
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 37):
But the EU isn't complaining about Japanese protectionism, it's complaining about Boeing winning despite the fact that Boeing is the incumbent manufacturer in Japanese majors' fleets. Boeing and the US frankly have more grounds for suspicion when it sees European airlines shifting to Airbus after being predominantly Boeing or McDD.

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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:04 am

When Airbus get 20% of an aircraft's important components from Japan, then they'll be getting serious business. Until then, they can gab all they want, but they won't see much movement. And rightly so. Why should Japan send Yen to Europe if all they get is a good plane, whereas Japan can send Yen to Seattle, and get a good plane plus component orders.

Unfortunately for Airbus this history goes back a few decades, before Airbus could really address this. But I think Airbus won't let the same situation develop in China and India - they will move as quickly as internal labour politics allows to source from those countries.
 
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):
India is a difficult place for the manufacturers to do business, especially when selling aircraft to Air India and Indian Airlines and the process is influenced by the government

Not to nitpick, but I think the first part of that statement India is a difficult place for manufacturers to do business" is just too broad of a generalization. It appears Jet, Sahara, Kingfisher and the other private airlines are able to make autonomous decisions related to aircraft purchase and inducting said aircraft into their fleets with no visible difficulties. I do, however, agree with you about AI and IC. Commercial aviation in India is no longer what it was about twenty years ago.

-N60659
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dutchjet
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RE: EU Upset At Japan...sends Letter To Gov't

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 48):

Not to nitpick, but I think the first part of that statement India is a difficult place for manufacturers to do business" is just too broad of a generalization. It appears Jet, Sahara, Kingfisher and the other private airlines are able to make autonomous decisions related to aircraft purchase and inducting said aircraft into their fleets with no visible difficulties. I do, however, agree with you about AI and IC. Commercial aviation in India is no longer what it was about twenty years ago.

-N60659

I agree - thanks for the clarification - I was referring to AI and IC.