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kc135topboom
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TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:35 am

Will TZ and WN merge? They could call themselves TWNZ (twins?), LOL.

This gets WN into the bigger US Military Contracts, and a little fleet diversification. It also gets them into DFW and around the Wright Admendment, while at the same time maintianing their hebs at DAL and MDW.

This gives TZ the stability (and cash) they need.

It gives both airlines the mid section of the US.

What are the down sides of such a merger?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
It also gets them into DFW and around the Wright Admendment, while at the same time maintianing their hebs at DAL and MDW.

They are currently trying to avoid that like the plauge, doing so would literally give ammunition to DFW to use against themselves. WN has made a point not to expand the WN/TZ codeshare to DFW because they do not want to "confuse" the issue one bit.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
Will TZ and WN merge?

I think they will maintain their current status for the time being. If ATA were to completly collapse, WN would likely pick-up certain portions of their domestic opperations only. It doesn't suit them to add x-number of 757 at this time.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:46 am

But, without WN's help, TZ will not be able to get the B-763s or B-742s they want. Unless they have financial help somewhere else.
 
flypdx
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:56 am

No I don't see this coming..It really just doesn't make sense. Southwest is getting enough done with the codeshare, and doesn't need to buy the money troubled airline..
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:56 am

WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this
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wnsocal
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely

Never is a mighty long time.
Airline Nut
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 5):
Never is a mighty long time.

Yep
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Airlinerfreak
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:10 am

My bets are that it will never happen. Though US and America West got away with it I do not think that TZ and WN would. Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:29 am

Not gonna happen. WN already has a good chunk of the domestic military charters, they don't nees ATA's 'help' to get more.

767's seems to be hard to get. ATA now has booked time for two L-1011 D-checks in England, according to the Yahoo-board ...
- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
 
aeroman62
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:57 am

WN has acquired, and in one case, absorbed the aircraft and operations of two airlines, namely Muse Air and Morris Air. The great thing about WN is that they'll do what makes sense to make money at any juncture in time, the TZ code share is something no one could have imagined 3 years ago.
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:03 am

I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.
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N77014
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:08 am

Morris Air was basically a shell; leased everything, complementary route system, and a very small work force that was easily integrated into WN.

TZ, on the other hand, is really two airlines in one, with a rather militant union and many years in existence. On paper, it would not be a good match.
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FATFlyer
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
but they were an all 733 fleet

It wasn't just aircraft. Morris also was originally set up closely following the Southwest model. There were boarding cards instead of seat assignments, etc. Lots of commonality that made that merger a little easier.
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juventus
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:14 am

How about UPS and FeDex, and call it FedUp.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.

They opperate 737-800, which have full cockpit commonality with the 737NG opperated by WN. TZ will also begin opperating "classic" 737 this fall. The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 7):
Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!

For what reason?

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

And they will never protest the Wright Ammendment  Yeah sure
 
N77014
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
I know that Morris especially was a large acquisition, but they were an all 733 fleet. TZ has no fleet commonality.

They opperate 737-800, which have full cockpit commonality with the 737NG opperated by WN. TZ will also begin opperating "classic" 737 this fall. The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 7):
Also WN would be making a big mistake by acquiring TZ!!

For what reason?

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):


WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

And they will never protest the Wright Ammendment

Buying an airline merely to acquire common aircraft is a poor business reason. There has to be inherent value, as what Morris offered to WN when they bought them.

TZ, as I pointed out earlier, offers too many dissimilarities to WN for a merger. Perhaps the closest they would come would be as a separate division, as Muse Air was. The issue of merging certificates, routes, seniority lists, fleet types; a real headache.
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FlyingTexan
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

Don't put anything beyond Southwest.
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flyboyaz
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 16):
Don't put anything beyond Southwest.

Exactly! I think WN will have to change in the future to keep competing with other carriers. As they tend to like smaller, less used cities...this can cause a problem in the future when they run out of markets to go in. I dare say they might have to acquire smaller planes that can be used in even smaller markets....like FAT, BFL, EUG, PSP, etc. They do just fine of course with what they have, but in general you have to keep growing to remain competitive.
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N77014
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:05 am

FAT, BFL, and PSP are growing areas. I think the only think keeping WN out right now are terminal facilities.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:14 am

Look at a map. There are scads of cities WN could serve without changing thier business model. Just off the top of my head:

COS, DSM, MSP/RST, MKE, GRR, DAY, CAE, SAV, FAT, ICT, MEM, GPT, RSW, SWF, ROC, SYR, PWM, BTV, MDT, ABE, RIC, TYS etc...

WN has a ton of long-term growth potential without integrating another airline.
Coast to Coast and Border to Border, Ozark Flies YOUR Way!
 
flyboyaz
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:56 am

Some of those cities don't have enough traffic to support the amount of frequencies WN likes.

Considering how slow they expand, yes they have quite a long time until they need to change things.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 16):
Don't put anything beyond Southwest.

I agree.  Silly

If WN decides that TZ is part of their business plan, it will happen.  bouncy 

Does WN currently fly to IND? IIRC, that is TZ's HQ and they are the largest airline there?  box 

So, could WN use a presence at IND, or if they are there, would it work for them to be the biggest airline there, like DAL?  scratchchin 
 
N1120A
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:36 pm

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
TZ has no fleet commonality.

Not only do the 738s at TZ have cockpit commonality, but also engine commonality.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
The only lack of commonality is their 757 fleet...

Well, the L1011s too Big grin

This much is true. WN is the Debtor in Posession financing provider for TZ. In lay terms, they are putting up the money for TZ to emerge from bankruptcy, much like Retirement Systems of Alabama did with US. In doing this, they have guarenteed themselves a significant stake in ATA Holdings when they emerge from bankruptcy. So, yes, WN will own at least part of TZ
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Silver1SWA
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:47 pm

At the Message to the Field a few months ago, I think the one thing stressed with the greatest emphasis was that Southwest has absolutely NO INTEREST in buying/mergin with ATA.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
sendMEtoLAS
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
At the Message to the Field a few months ago, I think the one thing stressed with the greatest emphasis was that Southwest has absolutely NO INTEREST in buying/mergin with ATA.

I agree. It's not going to happen. A merger for WN doesn't make sense, regardless which carrier it is.

I think TZ is the most likely for a merger for WN, but I think the chances of a WN TZ merger is less than %5.

TZ and WN make money off each other. WN is stronger because their FF don't have to go to UA, US, or NW to fly to LGA, DCA, or MSP.

TZ is marketing flights to HA from 3 west coast cities. WN is going to help make their flights successful.
 
N200WN
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:38 pm

Quoting N77014 (Reply 11):
Morris Air was basically a shell; leased everything, complementary route system, and a very small work force that was easily integrated into WN

The Morris workforce was not integrated into WN in the classic sense of the word. All Morris employees had to interview for positions at Southwest and were considered new hires.
 
N77014
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:05 pm

Quoting N200WN (Reply 25):
The Morris workforce was not integrated into WN in the classic sense of the word. All Morris employees had to interview for positions at Southwest and were considered new hires.

And non-union with no merging of seniority issues to worry of.
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Planesmart
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting 1millionflyer (Reply 4):
WN Will NEVER acquire another airline completely...mark my words on this

If the US-based airline industry unravels through uncontrolled airline failures, WN will undoubetdly prosper through rapid growth.

However, if the industry re-organises / rationalises in a controlled manner, WN won't sit on the sidelines. They want to be part of the action.

WN are hedging their bets at presently. They are lobbying against changes to anti-trust and foreign ownership laws which will facilitate a controlled industry re-organisation, at the same time talking to airlines and financiers to see what deals are on the table.

So yes, 1millionflyer, their preference is not to acquire, but never say never. If WN were offered an airline viewed as partly / completely compatible, with discounted funding and leases, would it be just too tempting?
 
FRA2DTW
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RE: TZ & WN, Next Airlines Merger In The USA?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:17 am

WN is not going to introduce ALPA-think into their pilot force. Their in-house union works and ALPA's confrontational style, which would be carried over from TZ, would mess up the good relationship the company enjoys with their pilots.