ChiGB1973
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Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:42 am

If there is such a cost saving, why are 738s being built without them. I know the airline has to order the winglets, but why not? The savings is supposed to be tremendous, so much so that WN and CO are adding them aftermarket.

Can the airlines not change an order to add the winglets, are they not concerned with fuel costs, can they not afford the initial cost versus the added fuel costs over the life of the aircraft?


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S12PPL
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:44 am

because each airline has to make that choice based on LOTS of facts...like gate space at airports... Sometimes gate space is limited wingtip to wingtip. There are lots of factors to consider.
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trex8
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:45 am

I would think the winglets are more useful on longer flights where there is a prolonged cruise, if you are doing a lot of very short trips, there may be less advantage.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:51 am

No according to the manufacturer, as they claim they are great no matter what length of flight...

But also the winglets are supposed to cut down on engine power required for takeoff (and thus noise), so this might be a favorable factor for some airlines with greater noise restrictions.
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CPH-R
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:54 am

Keep in mind that the winglets itself adds weight to the aircraft - so before they can really be seen as effective, the cruise have to be long enough, so the fuel saved is greater that the fuel used to carry the winglets around. Also, I do believe that they do cost a bit to (retro-)fit.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
No according to the manufacturer, as they claim they are great no matter what length of flight...

But also the winglets are supposed to cut down on engine power required for takeoff (and thus noise), so this might be a favorable factor for some airlines with greater noise restrictions.

Strange Ikramerica. There is a recommended altitude where winglets are more effective and for short trips, it's probably a minor factor as you take a time to get to the cruise altitude and also to land. Gol (G3) LCC received some 738 without winglets and they operated short trips like CGH-GIG, CGH-CWB, CGH-CNF, BSB-SSA, BSB-CNF, BSB-CGH, POA-CWB. Nowadays with longer flights (EZE-GRU for example), G3 added winglets to its most recent 738 fleet.
Any idea of how much adds in terms of cost the winglets ?

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Felipe
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Cactus739
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Thread starter):
The savings is supposed to be tremendous, so much so that WN and CO are adding them aftermarket.

I believe they are actually coming installed on all new 737-700 deliveries for Southwest..
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
optionscle
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:52 am

All of Southwests 73G's currently have winglets and all of the factory new planes should be coming installed with them.

The reason that FL didn't get winglets is, indeed, gate space issues at ATL. Like someone said, winglets are only economical on trips above a certain distance in which the fuel savings at cruise are greater than the added fuel consumption due to the increased weight.

-Andrew
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:56 am

Both CO and WN are getting them new on the 73G for WN and 738 for CO and retrofitting as well. The 736 has just become available with them from B, but not the 739.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/main.htm

You can either increase TOW from many airports, or decrease engine thrust instead, due to better climb out performance. This can cut down on noise, and fuel use, even for short trips.

Also, approach speed can be slower, again reducing thrust required/noise.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:59 am

Westjet is also receiving their -800s with winglets already installed.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

it makes me wonder if its worth it for WN. With many short hop flights is the fuel savings exceeding the cost of construction and added weight on the aircraft?
 
je89_w
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:18 pm

Funny how Shanghai Airlines only has one B738 with winglets (one of their first delivered), all their other newer B738s don't have any.

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N1120A
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Keep in mind that the winglets itself adds weight to the aircraft - so before they can really be seen as effective, the cruise have to be long enough,

Except that after sitting on the sidelines for years, short-haul specialist and ultra-tight fisted Ryanair decided to equip all 738s with winglets

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Also, I do believe that they do cost a bit to (retro-)fit.

900,000-1 million USD

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 6):
I believe they are actually coming installed on all new 737-700 deliveries for Southwest..

They are

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 7):
winglets are only economical on trips above a certain distance in which the fuel savings at cruise are greater than the added fuel consumption due to the increased weight.

Actually, WN has seen savings even on short hauls. This is one of the main reasons FR has decided to add them

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
but not the 739.

They are available, just not certified yet. The 739X will come standard with them

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 10):
it makes me wonder if its worth it for WN.

Um, they decided to equip, when all is said and done, close to 400 aircraft with them, so yes, it is worth it. Apparently they are saving on the line of $500,000 per year, per aircraft with that mod. Can't say so much for fuelmizer
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Bluewave 707
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:38 pm

-800s with winglets? I have got these shots over the last year of -800s, now coded as 73H. 738 is reserved for non-winglet -800s.

China Eastern has winglets on their -800s ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00301325
and ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00359211

Qantas does as well ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00362691

As does Air Pacific ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00156192

As does ChangAn Airlines ...
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00303831
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:40 pm

If the Cruising time is not long.Why would you want to add to the Weight.
regds
MEL
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MEA-707
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:51 pm

The winglets also became more attractive now with higher fuel costs. So airlines like Ryanair and Continental who earlier decided to ignore the winglet options are now retrofitting their aircrafts because the costs outweighed the fuel benefits back in say 2000 but not now.
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fly_yhm
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RE: Why No 738 Winglets?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:49 am

westjet also has winglets


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