Palladium
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What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:21 pm

I was just wondering what's the status of the SQ 006 pilot who crashed the plane in taipei?

Did SQ banned them to be their pilot forever? or they actually let them to be a pilot again and continue working with SQ?

I know this case is an old case, but I was just wondering if the pilot is really the caused for the accident?

I heard that the runway that was being repaired, the runway light was on and there's no sign of construction in progress or a warning sign whatsoever....

[Edited 2005-06-05 07:21:53]
 
N1120A
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:54 pm

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
and there's no sign of construction in progress or a warning sign whatsoever....

Well, he hit construction equipment, so I would think there was some sign

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
if the pilot is really the caused for the accident?

Yes
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
filejw
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:18 pm

Well not quite.If you ever had a look at the signage in TPE you would find it still sub par.Can't imagine how hard it must have been in poor visibility.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:39 am

Emotionally He must be having Nightmares.Tough on all Involved.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jorge1812
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:55 am

IIRC he was withdrawn from SQ and got also in trouble by court. Don't know exactly but I think he ended up in jail.

One question. From what I saw few weeks ago TPE has two parallel runways with the terminal complex between. Is this correct? If yes, how could he choose the wrong one. I can understand it when the runways are next to each other. Or am I wrong about the TPE rwy system?

Georg.
 
zvezda
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:01 am

There is plenty of blame to go around. The signage could have been better -- a lot better.
 
boeing764
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 4):
From what I saw few weeks ago TPE has two parallel runways with the terminal complex between. Is this correct? If yes, how could he choose the wrong one. I can understand it when the runways are next to each other. Or am I wrong about the TPE rwy system?

Taipei has three runways 05R, 05L and 06. The pilot attempted to take off on 05R, which was closed, instead of the operational runway 05L. In these photos you can see the 05 runways at the bottom right of the airport. They are close together on the same side of the airport, so it wouldn`t be too hard, with the poor visibility at the time, to make the mistake.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Irving Tjin



Also you can see a diagram of the airport here at airdisaster.com.
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...=9V-SPK&airline=Singapore+Airlines
From Dr. King's America to Nelson Mandela's Africa, the journey of equality moves on.
 
b741
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:03 am

Whether it be the airline pilot, the truck driver or the taxi, the person at the controls seems to take the blame, if at fault or not.
Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
 
Palladium
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:21 am

From my personal point of view is that the pilot is actually not at fault.
The runway light was on....why TPE airport turn off the runway light that was being repaired and not putting any sign that says that the runway is closed due to construction in progress or whatsoever.....

I can't believe they put all these fault and blames to the SQ pilot......
 
avek00
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Palladium (Reply 8):
I can't believe they put all these fault and blames to the SQ pilot......

Because the pilot failed to verify his position using one of the many tools available to him to do so.
Live life to the fullest.
 
jorge1812
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting Boeing764 (Reply 6):

Thanks, that helped me to understand.

Georg.
 
zvezda
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting Palladium (Reply 8):
From my personal point of view is that the pilot is actually not at fault.
The runway light was on....why TPE airport turn off the runway light that was being repaired and not putting any sign that says that the runway is closed due to construction in progress or whatsoever.....

I can't believe they put all these fault and blames to the SQ pilot......

There was a NOTAM that the runway was closed and that there was construction equipment on the closed runway. That should have been enough to give the pilot pause to make very, very sure that he was on the correct runway. He did not. The preponderance (but not all) of the fault is with the pilot.

That said, the airport could have done a better job, as you point out.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:12 pm

Well, all the armchair experts have weighed in. So, I will put forth my humble perspective.

During the best of times, TPE is a nightmare. The signage is useless there. Now you add, night, wind, rain, reduced visibility and you have an accident waiting to happen.

Was the crew to blame, yes. But the question I would ask is why takeoff in the first place. I, as a Captain, don't have to get anywhere. If someone wants me to violate my own standards, sorry, it's not going to happen. It's easy to view the situation with 20/20 hindsight, but frankly, the cause of the accident was the decision to go. The signage, or lack of it was a very big contributing factor.

The original question was what happened to the crew. The last I heard, and this was some time ago was ALPA-S is trying to get the crew back. Will it happen? I doubt it. But they are trying.
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TKMCE
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):
But the question I would ask is why takeoff in the first place. I, as a Captain, don't have to get anywhere. If someone wants me to violate my own standards, sorry, it's not going to happen

Come on- yes "Captain has the last word", But doesnt the circumstances in which you work , the company policies - the possible inconveneiences of a delayed flight- FDTL (may not be an issue here as I beleive they were starting their duty)- dont they all count?

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall, at Tenerife in the Pan Am-KLM accident, the fact that the crew was nearing their FDTL also played a part right?

I live in India, and I recall way back in the 1990s, when both Indian Airlines and East West had flights landing at Cochin within minutes of each other from Mumabi using 737s (classics), during the monsoon, every few days, the Indian Airlines flight used to divert to its alternate (Trivandrum) due to Weather, while East West used to land withoout fail!!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 13):
East West used to land withoout fail!!!!

There was a report about a Go around from COK during Landing in Bad Weather the Aircraft Wingtip touched the Surface as the Pilot [currently in 9W] opted for CJB.
Dont know how true.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 13):
Come on- yes "Captain has the last word", But doesnt the circumstances in which you work , the company policies - the possible inconveneiences of a delayed flight- FDTL (may not be an issue here as I beleive they were starting their duty)- dont they all count?

In a word, NO!

I am sorry if you don't agree, but if I don't consider the situation safe, that's the end of the story. I don't care how much pressure is exerted on me, I have my own bottom line that I will not compromise. As much as an inconvienence it is to delay or cancel a flight, it's a small price to pay in the larger view of things.

Quite frankly, the company can always get someone to fly the trip.
Fly fast, live slow
 
TBA04
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:15 pm

PhilSquares, I couldn't agree more!

Sure most of time people will get away with cutting corners for safety, but is it worth the risk of potentially fatal cosequences? NO!

Can you imagine the pax reaction to this 'she'll be right' attitude if they knew?!

IMO there is no place for safety short-cuts in aviation.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:47 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 15):
I am sorry if you don't agree, but if I don't consider the situation safe, that's the end of the story. I don't care how much pressure is exerted on me, I have my own bottom line that I will not compromise.

Flight management tells us that they will never question good judgement, whether it's a go-around or a delayed flight, in the name of safety.
 
TKMCE
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:19 pm

[

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 15):
Quite frankly, the company can always get someone to fly the trip.

And I am sure there will be atleast a few companies in whiich the company may as well decide to get someone else for your job as well! Not all countries have water tight labour laws!


Look folks - PhilSquares/TBA04/Cosmic cruiser et all. I respect and support your strong views on this and if I am caught in a similar situation as a passenger, resulting in inconvenience, I would take exactly the same view - SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT.

But - what I am trying to state is that unfortunately, many pilots are literally forced (ofcourse the pushes and pulls will always be subtle) to flout laws. That is something which you may have to live with, in some coputnries/operators - more than the others.

I am no expert in the flying side of things - yes - maybe even an "arm chair expert". But I do have a rudimentary academic knowledge of flight operations and safety and also peruse accident reports in detail (within the limitations of my knowledge). I am sure I have come accross atleast quite a few in the NTSB database itself, where the pressure exerted on the operator to complete the flight was cited as a contributory factor to the accident/incident.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
There was a report about a Go around from COK during Landing in Bad Weather the Aircraft Wingtip touched the Surface as the Pilot [currently in 9W] opted for CJB.
Dont know how true.
regds
MEL

Mel these sort of incidents are not uncommon in India, but normally go unreported in the media. DGCA accident reports list only the major incidents.
I do know of one East West 737 which over ran the runway and stopped just short of the boundary wall at CCJ- outside was a steep drop to a public road!

Pasted below is anoter incident taken from the local media at COK , which was one of my earliest posts in Anet way back in 2002.

************
Incidentally 5 hours earlier another Indian Airlines aircraft this time a Airbus A 320 operating IC 976 on the SHJ COK CJB MAA route was grounded at Cochin
after a go around. This has not been widely reported but as per a local media report, the aircraft touched down away from the centre line and went off the
runway and the pilot on realising this immediately managed to go around and landed again on the second attempt. Details are very sketchy about this incident, but the media report appears to be true as Indian Airlines web site shows IC976 cancelled from Coimbatore for 18May.
*******

Cheerio
 
jetfuel
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:28 pm

Sorry but thats why a Captain earns his $200-$300k PA. To make the right decisions. If there was any doubt on his position on the airfield he could have referred to his GPS/INS etc. The runway was marked with the runway numbers which tends to make me think the weather was in excess of being safe and/or the flight crew had not read the notam. Yes the runway lights probably should have been off and yes better signage would have been nice BUT that does not, in my view, let the Captain off the hook....

Sorry no excuses
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting TKMCE reply 18:
"And I am sure there will be atleast a few companies in whiich the company may as well decide to get someone else for your job as well! Not all countries have water tight labour laws!"

that brings something to my mind. My groundschool teacher use this "story" to enlighten various aspects regarding PIC responsibility.


Please understand that this story is retold by atleast two different persons, and therefore might contain errors regarding actual circumstances. But hopefully it will draw a basic picture.

Several years back, a NWA flight departed into such bad weather that the captain decided to return to the depature airport and wait for improved weather. After x amount of time NWA decided the weather had improved enough for the flight to be conducted, but the captain still refused to fly, because in his opinion the wx had not improved enough.

NWA got a new captain, and the involved captain was fired. He then brought the case to court, and won.

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 18):
what I am trying to state is that unfortunately, many pilots are literally forced (ofcourse the pushes and pulls will always be subtle) to flout laws. That is something which you may have to live with, in some coputnries/operators - more than the others.

That may be true and that's these operators should be AVOIDED. There are some carriers that I can tell you I will refuse to get on.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 18):
I am no expert in the flying side of things - yes - maybe even an "arm chair expert". But I do have a rudimentary academic knowledge of flight operations and safety and also peruse accident reports in detail (within the limitations of my knowledge). I am sure I have come accross atleast quite a few in the NTSB database itself, where the pressure exerted on the operator to complete the flight was cited as a contributory factor to the accident/incident.

Then that's the fault of the PIC. I can guarantee you no one will take the flight if they know the original crew turned it down. That is a simple fact of aviation life.

Believe me, in Singapore the labor laws don't favor the employee. But my bottom line is I don't care. The reason why is I know I am right. As the PIC, my decision stands. There is no amount of pressure that can be exerted on me to continue.
Fly fast, live slow
 
MKEdude
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:12 am

Getting back to the subject...

Blame aside what happened to the pilot? Some people have said that he is in jail, while others have said that he is trying to get his job back. Guilty or not, what happened to the guy?
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
Palladium
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:24 pm

Just right before the SQ took off, there's another plane ahead of SQ and took off safely and also a plane waiting to took off as well behind SQ.

So, I don't think that weather is an issue here. The level of weather is within the limit of standard safety for take off.

This is why TPE airport should have a ground radar control so the tower can control and see exactly what's going on their airport - runway etc...

To prevent an accident, is just not by having a good aircraft with execellent maintenance and well-trained pilot, but the safety of airport play a big part as well.

In this case , during the SQ accident, TPE airport does not have a ground radar control which is very essential and necessary to monitor every single plane in the airport, their exact position and everything. And since Taipei has soo many thunder storm and bad weather, I think this ground radar control will help them a lot and to improve the safety.
 
zvezda
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:36 pm

Jailing someone for making a mistake like that is, in my opinion, unwarranted. On the other hand, letting him continue in the same job is unconscionable. Perhaps letting him fly cargo-only flights would be ok, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with him having any sort of pilot's license.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:45 pm

Quoting Palladium (Reply 24):
Just right before the SQ took off, there's another plane ahead of SQ and took off safely and also a plane waiting to took off as well behind SQ.

So, I don't think that weather is an issue here. The level of weather is within the limit of standard safety for take off.

Beg to differ, there might have been an aircraft that took off quite some time prior to SQ6. But there was no departure right before SQ6, nor was there a departure after SQ6.

Interestingly enough, there was a SQ freighter that the Captain refused to depart because of the weather.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Palladium
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:56 pm

so now I am confused... so the captain is the only person who can make decision wheter to take off or not?

I thought the people who work in the control tower that can say yes or no for take off.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Interestingly enough, there was a SQ freighter that the Captain refused to depart because of the weather.

very interesting....

Wanna hear something more interesting?

I live in seattle now and I am a student.... and I have 1 friend from Indonesia and his parents was on board SQ006 >_< lucily his parents was safe and unhurt. Since they traveled in First class section. Which was one of the safest part of the planes during that accident.

I believe his parents got some compentation from SQ about $ 80,000.00 and his parent received the money from SQ and donate all the $$ for some loacl churches back in Indonesia.

Just prior the boarding time...there were some pax asking interisting question to the SQ's flight attendants in the boarding gate. " are we still going to fly in this such bad weather? " and those SQ's flight attendants were just laughing at those pax ans said "don't worry, everything is just gonna be fine..."

my friend told me that his parents is afraid of flying now and still in shock. =(
oh...and I heard SQ gave his parent a lifetime free flying with SQ...whoah..... I don't know if this is true thou... but it's possible since his parents is a frequent flyers with SQ.
 
na
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:59 pm

Bad signage, poor weather, fatigue, and a runway closed. 4 reasons, why it was extra-important for the pilot to clarify he was on the right track. 4 reasons, why he shouldn´t be allowed to fly pax again. This man was blind, knew it, and still didn´t ask for help. How much graver a mistake can a pilot make?
 
ua777222
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:00 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Interestingly enough, there was a SQ freighter that the Captain refused to depart because of the weather.

Good call. I recall an incident at BOS or an airport in the area where a female pilot made the wrong turn in poor visibility it was either 0-0 or close to it. Well they made the left turn late and ended up stuck on the active. The ATC gets pissed and tells all other aircraft to continue as usual and that she'll deal with the lost a/c when she can lighten the line up. She clears a USAirways to take off and they tell her that they will not move until the lost aircraft is located. Turns out if the ATC and the jet actually took off they would have crashed into the 757 probably killing all. Judgment is always key in situations like this and one that clearly wasn't used in the crash of SQ6. Just b/c the sign says turn left doesn't mean you turn left and on and on it goes.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Palladium
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:05 pm

I am confused...sooo is it the captain decision or the ATC decison for an aircraft to take off ???
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:09 pm

Quoting Palladium (Reply 27):
so now I am confused... so the captain is the only person who can make decision wheter to take off or not?

I thought the people who work in the control tower that can say yes or no for take off.

Tower can only give you clearance to takeoff or land. In reality, it's up to the PIC. In this case the freighter Captain didn't even leave the hotel! Can't say I don't agree with him.

As far as the crew flying again. I don't think it's quite so black and white. There were many contributing factors that led to the bad decision. However, if you've ever been to TPE you would know what I mean. Signage is marginal at best (during the day clear WX), now throw in bad weather, reduced visibility and darkness, not a good situation. Again, it's easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight. However, I don't think removing the Captain is the answer. After all, if a Doctor has a patient die due to the doctor's action/inaction, we don't prohibit the doctor from practicing medicine.

[Edited 2005-06-09 12:29:08]
Fly fast, live slow
 
Palladium
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 31):
Tower can only give you clearance to takeoff

woot... so then I guess, you, as being a captain must take every responsibility then... Don't you think ATC should at least can give advice to not let them take off during bad weather or maybe suspend all activities for 1 - 2 hours 'till the weather gets better?

have u ever land a plane in a really bad weather? what was it like?

Again...back to the topic...I strongly agree with you that during the bad weather...it's better not to take off...why should take a risk if you can take off safely rite?

I believe and I think airlines' companies are really counting on their pilot and whatever their pilot did for ex. to delay take off, to cancel the trip b/c of bad weather.... I believe it's all for the best interest of passengers safety. Safet comes first....

I don't mind getting delayed for few hours b/c of a bad weather. I rather being delayed than force to take off ontime. I don't want to take any risk if I can choose a better path.
 
zvezda
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 31):
if a Doctor has a patient die due to the doctor's action/inaction, we don't prohibit the doctor from practicing medicine.

Sometimes we do. Anyway, I don't think it's an entirely fair analogy. Doctors often deal with situations where patients will die regardless of what they do. You won't find an experienced surgeon who's never lost a patient. Every sentient patient who undergoes surgury knows that the surgeon has lost patients. Airline passengers would be horrified to learn that the SQ006 pilot was flying their aircraft. Just knowing that he was flying again for SQ would cost SQ business. Freight wouldn't care. If I were in SQ management and it were my decision, I'd put him on probation for 5 years and permanently asign him to cargo flights -- if he retained his license -- but then I'm a very forgiving soul.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting Palladium (Reply 32):
woot... so then I guess, you, as being a captain must take every responsibility then... Don't you think ATC should at least can give advice to not let them take off during bad weather or maybe suspend all activities for 1 - 2 hours 'till the weather gets better?

Exactly right, it's the Captain's responsibility. No, I don't think ATC should give advice at all.

Yes, I have had to land in bad weather. It's really what you train for. All part of the job.
Fly fast, live slow
 
zeekiel
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RE: What's The Status Of The SQ 006 Pilot?

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 34):
Exactly right, it's the Captain's responsibility.

The Captain has the ultimate responsibility of the aircraft and its passengers.

However, there were two other crew members on the Flight Deck (both at the same time, I think). They have equal responsibility to confirm the Captain's actions and question any actions that they perceive to be incorrect.

I have sat on a QF 763 flight deck from AKL-MEL (before September 11). From the moment they are getting the plane moving on its own power, the word "check" or "checks" is being repeated by the PNF or in this case the First Officer. The Captain was asking or giving verbal echoes of his intentions and the F/O confirmed with him. It was a foggy morning and even though there is only one runway at that time at AKL, they had a task list and were prioritising and so on. There should be no excuse at all for poor judgement.

That's why they are also pilots and get paid a lot of money (less than the Captain, of course).

A lot of air accidents occur when other flight crew fail to question problems or confirm actions and in this case with the PVD or lining up on the wrong runway. In every documentary regarding pilot error it goes on about the same thing.

Quoting Palladium (Reply 24):
To prevent an accident, is just not by having a good aircraft with execellent maintenance and well-trained pilot, but the safety of airport play a big part as well.

Environmental factors play roles in air accidents. TPE was not at that time the greatest for weather and airfield "friendliness". Doesn't mean that it lets the pilot off, but adds complications to judgements.

I remember something to do with fixation on a single problem had a role. The pilot was so intent on getting the jet into the air that he fixated on that single problem, rather than focussing on other environmental factors that could affect the take off.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force

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