A330323X
Topic Author
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:46 pm

Trans States Airlines will discontinue its at-risk Jetstream 41 flying for US Airways Express.

To be discontinued on 6/4/05:
PIT-TYS

To be discontinued on 7/2/05:
PIT-GSO

To be discontinued on 8/31/05:
PIT-RDU
PIT-RIC
BWI-GSO
BWI-RIC
BWI-SYR

US Airways Express will no longer serve the PIT-TYS, PIT-GSO, BWI-RIC markets.

US Airways Express will continue to serve the PIT-RIC market with 3x ERJ, and the PIT-RDU market with 1x ERJ + 2x DH8

US Airways Express carrier Colgan Air will begin service in the BWI-GSO and BWI-SYR markets on 9/1/05, with 3x daily BE1 roundtrips in each market.

Trans States currently operates 8 Jetstream 41 aircraft for US Airways Express. I do not know whether Trans States intends to retire the aircraft or move them to its AmericanConnection operation.

[Edited 2005-06-05 08:48:50]
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:56 pm

Not good news for US Airways. It is absolutely impossible for US Airways to lose any money on at-risk flying. Why most airlines have their regional flights fee-per-departure rather than at-risk is so far beyond my comprehension, other than the almighty control and market share, I fail to understand how Albert Einstein could figure this one out. Fee-per-departure flying is nearly-guaranteed money-losing, at-risk is nearly-guaranteed money-making. Well, market-share over bottom-line is what got many of the legacies to this point...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:45 pm

Hopefully these J41's will be moved to American connection. Adding more props to their routes will only help AA's bottom line.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
flypdx
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:07 am

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is at risk flying?
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:22 am

Basically, Flypdx, take Air Wisconsin for example. They choose a route to fly. Let's say they choose to fly PHL to CAK. They pay US Airways a fee to use the US Airways Express brand name, their reservation systems, ground handling and so on and so forth. However, Air Wisconsin gets all of the revenues from that flight, minus of course the fee they pay US Airways.

FEE-PER-DEPARTURE

  • The mainline carrier pays the express carrier a fee.
  • The mainline carrier sets the schedule.
  • The mainline carrier keeps all profits from the flight.
  • Almost always profitable for the express carrier.


AT RISK FLYING

  • The express carrier pays the mainline carrier a fee.
  • The express carrier sets the schedule.
  • The express carrier keeps all profits from the flight, minus the fee they pay the mainline carrier.


Hope I Helped,
AAndrew
 
flypdx
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:35 am

Ah, thank you very much  Smile
 
A330323X
Topic Author
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Not good news for US Airways. It is absolutely impossible for US Airways to lose any money on at-risk flying. Why most airlines have their regional flights fee-per-departure rather than at-risk is so far beyond my comprehension, other than the almighty control and market share, I fail to understand how Albert Einstein could figure this one out. Fee-per-departure flying is nearly-guaranteed money-losing, at-risk is nearly-guaranteed money-making. Well, market-share over bottom-line is what got many of the legacies to this point...

Actually, I'm in favor of this move. It certainly *is* possible for US to lose out on this flying. It's very difficult for US to lose money directly, that I grant you. (And the Trans States operation was so small, US did not make a whole lot of money on it.)

But the indirect losses to the US brand can be big. It hurts the US brand when you have Air Midwest and Trans States flying planes that look like this:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Robbins
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Wheeler



To use an extreme example, it *really* hurts the US Airways brand when Air Midwest (and, to a lesser extent, Colgan) are involved in plane crashes. And, the reason I'm most in favor of this, it hurts US to have many different carriers operating different types of airplane, because there is no standardization and customers don't know what to expect. In the last year, US has gone from 6 carriers operating 4 types of 30-to-37 seat planes to 2 carriers operating 2 types of planes. That is a good thing.

And the two routes that were actually making money are being picked up by Colgan, so there is not much loss to the US network. (Colgan's Saab fleet is stretched pretty thin right now, but I expect the routes to be upgraded at some point.)
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PHLAUA
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:00 am

For some reason I thought they stopped using J41s a while ago. Guess I hadn't been keeping up with USX-TransStates operations. It's been a while since I've seen one of them here in PHL.

Jeff
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:08 am

Jeff-All of US Airways Express' turboprop operations at Philadelphia are wholly-owned, and US Airways will not allow any at-risk operations under their banner at Philadelphia. Also worth noting is that the only at-risk operations at Charlotte are Air Midwest's 2x daily to Athens, Georgia, and 1x daily to Lewisburg, West Virginia, and both of those cities are EAS cities.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
PHLAUA
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:10 am

That makes sense. Is there a specific reason that's the case at PHL and not PIT, BWI and the 3 flights from CLT?

Jeff
 
loggat
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:06 am

For what it's worth... from the inside...

Most of the J41 leases are expiring this year and the planes are being returned to the lessors. By Sept '05, any remaining J41's will be transferred to the AA side in STL. All J41 flying (both US and AA) is a loss maker for Trans States Airlines. If, and only if, the lease agreements can be reworked to lower the lease costs to TSA, the J41 service will continue, or we can expect to see all J41's leave the fleet.

We still currently operate 13 ERJ-145 aircraft on the USX banner, but we will see what happens to those once things pan out with US/AWAC.
There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2529
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 6):
And the two routes that were actually making money are being picked up by Colgan, so there is not much loss to the US network. (Colgan's Saab fleet is stretched pretty thin right now, but I expect the routes to be upgraded at some point.)

are they getting more saabs? if njot what type of upgrade are you reffering to?
 
A330323X
Topic Author
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
Also worth noting is that the only at-risk operations at Charlotte are Air Midwest's 2x daily to Athens, Georgia, and 1x daily to Lewisburg, West Virginia, and both of those cities are EAS cities.

Air Midwest can fly all the flights they want to out of CLT, no one is stopping them. The reason they've dropped all the non-EAS flying is because they can't make any money doing it. They've only got 3 non-EAS subsidized routes left in the whole US system.

Quoting PHLAUA (Reply 9):
That makes sense. Is there a specific reason that's the case at PHL and not PIT, BWI and the 3 flights from CLT?

US only lets Piedmont operate props at PHL right now to help ameliorate the capacity-related air traffic delays and also a shortage of gate space.

Quoting Loggat (Reply 10):
We still currently operate 13 ERJ-145 aircraft on the USX banner

I believe the number is 17.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 11):
are they getting more saabs? if njot what type of upgrade are you reffering to?

Yes; while I don't know of any specific plans, Colgan has been adding more Saabs for a while now. Also, they should have a few aircraft free up after the ACK/MVY high season ends. Alternatively, they could add additional Beech frequencies. Or they could move the Saabs off of another route if the new ones perform well.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:44 pm

Yeay, RDU gets the Dash 8 back to PIT. I love that airplane
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5469
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 13):
Yeay, RDU gets the Dash 8 back to PIT. I love that airplane

It was previously 2 J41 and 2 DH8... the DH8 remain.. the 2 J1 changed to 1 ERJ...
Aiming High and going far..
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 14):
It was previously 2 J41 and 2 DH8... the DH8 remain.. the 2 J1 changed to 1 ERJ...

I stand corrected. I haven't spent much time as I'd like in RDU recently and it seems the only flights I'd ever seen on ASD from PIT to RDU are the J41s.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
Air Midwest can fly all the flights they want to out of CLT, no one is stopping them. The reason they've dropped all the non-EAS flying is because they can't make any money doing it.

Why is some of that EAS flying (I'm referring more to Colgan's Staunton and Bluefield flights than anything else) going to Northern Virginia then, as opposed to Charlotte, even when you consider that Northern Virginia is a United hub, rather than a US Airways hub? I'm not disputing what you are saying, just wondering what Colgan is thinking...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
A330323X
Topic Author
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 16):
Why is some of that EAS flying (I'm referring more to Colgan's Staunton and Bluefield flights than anything else) going to Northern Virginia then, as opposed to Charlotte, even when you consider that Northern Virginia is a United hub, rather than a US Airways hub? I'm not disputing what you are saying, just wondering what Colgan is thinking...

LOL, I should've known that would be your next question.  Smile

The answer is that Air Midwest can fly all the flights they want to out of CLT. I said nothing about Colgan. Colgan can't fly the Beech into CLT because Air Midwest's contract allows them to be the exclusive 19-seat provider for US Airways Express at CLT. It dates back to the CCAir days. Similarly, Colgan is the exclusive 19-seat operator for US Airways Express at BOS. I'm not sure whether or not Colgan could fly the Saab into CLT; I would guess not, since CCAir and Mesa previously operated the Dash-8 at CLT.

As for why IAD, I'd note that Colgan is headquartered near IAD, and that US Airways Express historically has had a large presence at IAD, much larger than what they have now. And, of course, the obvious reason being the United codeshare.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6091
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:26 am

Colgan is stretched very thin right now in terms of aircraft, crews, and resources due to the rapid build-up of IAH CoConex ops down in IAH. They are busy obtaining additional Saabs for this flying, hiring/training crews and now running operations half way across the country. They may run into some serious crew shortages later on this year as their training department is max-ed out and crews time-out.
 
loggat
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
Quoting Loggat (Reply 10):
We still currently operate 13 ERJ-145 aircraft on the USX banner

I believe the number is 17.

You believe incorrectly, it's 13. N801HK-N812HK, plus N829HK.
There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Trans States To Discontinue US Express J41 Flying

Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 16):
Why is some of that EAS flying (I'm referring more to Colgan's Staunton and Bluefield flights than anything else) going to Northern Virginia then, as opposed to Charlotte

To add to this, I believe that the EAS subsidies are tied to routes, not just small airports. If memory serves, the Colgan routes (from the smaller cities in VA & WV) can go to either PIT, IAD, or CMH. They'd have to file for a different route when the EAS award expires if they wanted to fly to CLT instead.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Why most airlines have their regional flights fee-per-departure rather than at-risk is so far beyond my comprehension, other than the almighty control and market share, I fail to understand how Albert Einstein could figure this one out. Fee-per-departure flying is nearly-guaranteed money-losing, at-risk is nearly-guaranteed money-making.

Actually, it really depends on how well the large airline prices and markets the fee-for-departure flying. If they do a good job of it, they can make far more money since they keep all the profits over and above what they pay the regional partner to operate the flights. Looking at US Airways in 2000, the Express portion of the business made over $100 million.

Who is online