boeingbus
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British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:47 am

Is this the first confirmation yet that Birtish Airways is looking for new jumbos??

Cheers,

Ric
----


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/ar...?in_article_id=401081&in_page_id=2

Broughton also disclosed that BA was in talks about buying an advanced version of the 747 jumbo jet if Boeing decides to go ahead with the model.

He hinted that BA might replace its present 747 fleet with American planes rather than the new giant Airbus A380.
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commavia
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
Broughton also disclosed that BA was in talks about buying an advanced version of the 747 jumbo jet if Boeing decides to go ahead with the model.

If Boeing goes ahead with the 747ADV, I think BA and CX would probably be two of its first customers. Both would likely be enticed by lower unit operating costs, but the capacity between the 777 and A380 behemoth.

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
He hinted that BA might replace its present 747 fleet with American planes rather than the new giant Airbus A380.

I think this is highly likely, and I doubt that BA will ever fly the A380. It completely flys (no pun intended) in the face of their entire business model for the last ten years and is simply far too big for all but maybe 2 or 3 routes in their entire network.
 
707lvr
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:58 am

Is it just me, or does this statement:

"It (BA) is considering either copying no-frills airlines by making passengers pay for their meals, or offering even more luxury to premium passengers,"

pretty much give people the choice of flying like The Queen or like luggage? Isn't there some formula which would provide travel that most people want?
 
oldeuropean
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
BA was in talks about buying an advanced version of the 747 jumbo jet if Boeing decides to go ahead with the model.

... to be the first airline to fly it with 3 engines.  biggrin 

Only one customer is too few. Don`t expect an anouncement in Paris.

Axel
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:12 am

I think the reference to ShortHaul luxury refers to an improved Club Europe product currently on trial. With BD abandoning business on all routes where it competes with BA except BRU (EDI/GLA are economy only with BA) then it might be possible that Club Europe will stay. Maybe LGW will become an economy only operation though with the focus on leisure routes.

If BA and CX did opt for the 747ADV then could they try and force Boeing's hands to offer RR engines as an option? These two carriers operate 76 RR powered 747-400s between them, plus CX has 6 RR powered freighters. Might not want GE engines forced on them.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
boeingbus
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:18 am

What I have heard is that GE has adapted the 7E7 engines to be bleed versions for the A350 as well as the 747, where as RR has not yet... the problem is not Boeing or Airbus for that matter but RR to solve...

Cheers
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atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
If BA and CX did opt for the 747ADV then could they try and force Boeing's hands to offer RR engines as an option? These two carriers operate 76 RR powered 747-400s between them, plus CX has 6 RR powered freighters. Might not want GE engines forced on them.

Both BA and CX have expressed interest in the 773ER which isn't every going to have a RR engine, so it is not likely an issue for them. The GENx choice for the 747Adv also stems from ease of adaptation issues.
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N60659
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
If BA and CX did opt for the 747ADV then could they try and force Boeing's hands to offer RR engines as an option? These two carriers operate 76 RR powered 747-400s between them, plus CX has 6 RR powered freighters. Might not want GE engines forced on them.

IIRC, wasn't one of the reasons for GE's exclusivity on the 747Adv have to deal with it being the better option for the bleed air version of the GEnx over the RR Trent 1000?

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DfwRevolution
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
These two carriers operate 76 RR powered 747-400s between them, plus CX has 6 RR powered freighters. Might not want GE engines forced on them.

BA also opperates a large fleet of GE powered 777. They weren't satisfied with EOS, but the bulk of their fleet remains Ge90 powered. Likewise, CX hasn't included RR engines as part of their ongoing RFP, and the best product in that class (the 773ER) is only available with GE engines.

You are putting a little to much stock in the engine supplier issue.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Both would likely be enticed by lower unit operating costs, but the capacity between the 777 and A380 behemoth.

The exact economics are yet unkown, but like you say, the trip cost will definitly be lower for the Adv. Seat economics should be competitive.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 3):
Only one customer is too few. Don`t expect an anouncement in Paris.

This is strong indication that there are more than one passenger airline in negotiations with Boeing for the Adv. This isn't even factoring in cargo carriers, namely Cargolux, who could also help launch the Adv.
 
dutchjet
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:42 am

If Boeing is to proceed with the 747A, it needs BA as one of the launch customers.......BA has been commited to Boeing for longhaul for ages, it has a huge 744 fleet that will need replacement over time, and BA has stated that it thinks that the A380 is just too big for its needs and "downsizing" at slot restricted LHR is not really an attractive option.

With respect to the 747A, its more and more NOW or NEVER for Boeing....if it could land a 747A order from BA and maybe CX, the 747A program maybe can get off the ground. There is big gap in the market, between the A346/773 and the A380, maybe Boeing can fill it with the 747A and get the airline's attention.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:45 am

Seems like a far cry from the, "Prediction: BA will purchase the A380."
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Glom
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:56 am

The BA debate happens on a regular basis. I think BA will buy Tupolevs for no other reason than to annoy us a.netters.
 
dutchjet
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 11):
The BA debate happens on a regular basis. I think BA will buy Tupolevs for no other reason than to annoy us a.netters.

Funny, but this time I think that its getting serious - both BA (and some other key carriers) and Boeing must make a decision about the future of the 747 project. If there will be a direct successor to the 747 program, the airlines need to know very soon or they will look to other alternatives.
 
AZA330
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:19 am

are there any informations about how big the 747ADV will be? Just like the current 747? I was wondering if BA is really intrested in changing their 747 in more efficient 747 while a lot of their competitors are buying the A380 (according to me, with the A380 the airlines will be able to offer a better service to passengers).

Ciao  Smile
 
Glom
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting AZA330:
are there any informations about how big the 747ADV will be?

Loads of posts about it. It's a small stretch giving an extra 40 seats. It is intended to sit in between the 773ER and the A388.

Quoting AZA330:
I was wondering if BA is really intrested in changing their 747 in more efficient 747 while a lot of their competitors are buying the A380 (according to me, with the A380 the airlines will be able to offer a better service to passengers).

It depends on layout. Anyone could use a low density config on the 747ADV to give loads of cool things.
 
atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:28 am

BA's goal no doubt is to occupy as many slots as it can get away with at LHR, so that it can limit competition. Sudden large increases in capacity from switching to an aircraft like the A380 could lead to overcapacity which could lead to a situation where they cannot profitably use all of their slots.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting AZA330 (Reply 13):
are there any informations about how big the 747ADV will be?

Yes, the 747-Adv will be stretched several frames to allow 448 seats in Boeing's three-class demo configuration. See link below-

http://www.boeing.com/randy/archives/photos/rb_747a_lg1.html

Quoting AZA330 (Reply 13):
I was wondering if BA is really intrested in changing their 747 in more efficient 747 while a lot of their competitors are buying the A380

The A388 will still maintain a sizeable advantage in terms of floor area, so it's true A380 opperators can be a little more creative and liberal with their premium product.

The 747-Adv will have some major trump cards of its own. For example, the Adv will weigh 175,000 lbs less than the A388 but carry only 25,000 lbs less payload. The Adv also requires less airport modification than the A388, meaning greater flexibility in network planning.
 
atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
The A388 will still maintain a sizeable advantage in terms of floor area, so it's true A380 opperators can be a little more creative and liberal with their premium product.

Since the A380 appears to have less cargo capacity on a per passenger basis, this may necessitate reducing passenger count and thus increasing per passenger space to accomodate passenger luggage along with extra revenue cargo.
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zvezda
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting AZA330 (Reply 13):
are there any informations about how big the 747ADV will be?

The passenger version will be stretched 80 inches (203cm) forward of the wing (including the hump) plus 60 inches (152cm) following the wing. Also the wingspan will increase due to different wingtips.
 
SNATH
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:39 am

Give it a few more days and then we'll hear that Tony Blair got a letter from Peter Mandelson asking him why BA is not talking to Airbus about the A380!  Smile  bigthumbsup 

Tony
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mauriceb
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:40 am

Only one customer is too few. Don`t expect an anouncement in Paris.

Axel


since the 747adv won't be an entire new model, the Design costs will be lower....

and with BA having one of the biggest 747 fleets, as well as CX wich still buy's them and is rapidly expanding, this may be good for about 70 orders. since i don't see airlines like KLM , AF , LH , JAL, CI , AI replacing theire aging 747 fleet with a to big A380 (not on all markets) and a bit to small A340-600/777-300ER i would assume they will go for the 747adv...
 
avek00
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
The A388 will still maintain a sizeable advantage in terms of floor area, so it's true A380 opperators can be a little more creative and liberal with their premium product.

Not really - Airbus is AGAIN forcing A380 customers to shed more weight off of their cabin plans, which will likely eliminate many of the already pie-in-the-sky ideas envisioned for the plane.
Live life to the fullest.
 
AZA330
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:51 am

ok, thanks for the info  Smile

I remember some posts on this forum, months ago, that said that Boeing stopped the development of the improved version of the 747, so I was wondering if this was a different version, but it looks like it is the same aircraft of those posts some time ago.

I was wondering if the 747adv is more economical to fly, even if it can carry about 100 less passengers...
 
zvezda
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 20):
this may be good for about 70 orders.

70 orders would certainly exceed the number needed to break even _IF_ Boeing can sell enough B747-400s (probably as part of the B747Adv deals) to keep the line open until B747Adv production starts.
 
atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
70 orders would certainly exceed the number needed to break even _IF_ Boeing can sell enough B747-400s (probably as part of the B747Adv deals) to keep the line open until B747Adv production starts.

There has been speculation that the 744 could be re-engined with 747Adv engines, which could depress the market for 747Advs. However, I wonder if by the same token that 744s sold during this period could have a re-engine option offered to create a 747-Not-so-Adv.
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scotron11
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):

Seems like a far cry from the, "Prediction: BA will purchase the A380."

It is critical that Boeing receive new orders for their present 747/767 models to keep the lines viable. If no significant orders materialize, they will shut them down. Period.

All Mulally said was that they "were pleasantly surprised" by the interest shown in the "proposed" 747ADV, he never said there was a definite commitment if Boeing decided to go ahead with it. It seems there is a more definite interest in their freighter version, hence quite a few airlines opting to convert their current 744s to the 744SF.

Then again, how long has Boeing hinted at a revised version of their 747? Bloody ages...if they were serious they would have already started production. But, hold on a minute, didn't Boeing say there was little future market for giant planes like the 747? And that their future was in planes like their 787?

Maybe the 747ADV is the true dreamliner.
 
flyAUA
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:16 am

So much for their "cost cutting" and "restructuring" and "we are not going to purchase any aircraft for the time being"...  sarcastic 
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Glom
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Atmx2000:
However, I wonder if by the same token that 744s sold during this period could have a re-engine option offered to create a 747-Not-so-Adv.

That was one of the scenarios Boeing had studied but it attracted little interest because without other changes, the improvements weren't enough to justify it.

Quoting Scotron11:
But, hold on a minute, didn't Boeing say there was little future market for giant planes like the 747? And that their future was in planes like their 787?

They only need a little market for the 747ADV for it to work, unlike the A380, which needs a much bigger market.
 
N60659
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 25):
Then again, how long has Boeing hinted at a revised version of their 747? Bloody ages...if they were serious they would have already started production.

The biggest difference between the 747-500,747-600, 747400XQLR etc. - availability of powerplants that makes the economics of the 747 truly viable in this cost conscious market. This is definitely Boeing's best shot at a true 747-400 successor.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
create a 747-Not-so-Adv

747-Advanced Retro perhaps?

-N60659
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zvezda
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 24):
There has been speculation that the 744 could be re-engined with 747Adv engines, which could depress the market for 747Advs.

I think an ability to refit existing B747-400s with the GEnx engine would be very popular, but I don't think it would significantly depress the market for the B747Adv. Some customers will want the B747Adv for capacity reasons.

Similarly, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be possible to refit existing B747-400s with the wingtips from the B747Adv.
 
trex8
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 19):
Give it a few more days and then we'll hear that Tony Blair got a letter from Peter Mandelson asking him why BA is not talking to Airbus about the A380!

Tony and Peter are as close as you get without being spouses! If it wasn't for Peter, Tony would never have been Labor party leader and PM. They won't be communicating by letter I can assure you!
 
ikramerica
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:04 am

Any chance of seeing a 745 and 746? At 11ft stretch, the 747Adv would still be shorter than or equal to the A380, 773, and 346. But they need to rebuild the wings and engine anyway, so a 22ft stretch could be achieved with the length being only 5 feet longer than a 346. Considering the stretch would occur more in the cargo section of the plane than the rear "slope" and that the 747 is higher off the ground than an A346, combined with the active tail strike system and EFB from Boeing, rotation should not be an issue.

If there were both a new 445 seat and a 490 seat 747, both with better cargo and economics and similar range to the A388...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
steve7e7
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 30):
Tony and Peter are as close as you get without being spouses! If it wasn't for Peter, Tony would never have been Labor party leader and PM. They won't be communicating by letter I can assure you!

Perish the very idea!!

I reckon they're sleeping together. Smile
 
agill
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:08 am

Am I missing something? Normaly people seem to dismiss everything in articles, at least when it's vague like this, but this time people seem to take it as the deal is already made.
 
zvezda
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
Any chance of seeing a 745 and 746? At 11ft stretch, the 747Adv would still be shorter than or equal to the A380, 773, and 346. But they need to rebuild the wings and engine anyway, so a 22ft stretch could be achieved with the length being only 5 feet longer than a 346.

The B747Adv would retain the wing of the B747-400. Only the wingtips would change.
 
ikramerica
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:09 am

Also, part of the gain in seats, vs. length, can be achieved by using the crown of the main cabin as crew rest similar to the 777 longer range products. Such a move gives 10-15 seats back right there on a 747A design, a fact I am sure is not lost on Boeing. Both the A346 and the A380 need to use revenue cabin space or the lower deck for such things.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
Also, part of the gain in seats, vs. length, can be achieved by using the crown of the main cabin as crew rest similar to the 777 longer range products. Such a move gives 10-15 seats back right there on a 747A design, a fact I am sure is not lost on Boeing.

Boeing have been actively talking about this.
 
whitehatter
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:21 am

It's an interesting article. Broughton, however, is the chairman and not in the main driving seat. Willie Walsh will be in a position to do the steering more than the guy with the gavel.

BA does need to consider fleet renewal, but just not yet. Willie does have a track record with EI of going down the GE/Airbus road for longhaul operations which might cloud the issue somewhat, but there seems to have been an unwritten policy at BA of Boeing for longhaul and Airbus for shorthaul in recent years.

The substantial assets in the UK for GE support makes it easier too to contemplate adding more GE power, but I'd like to think Rolls could counter the GEnx adaptation by reworking the Trent 1000 for Boeing. I haven't seen any indication that Boeing have done any hard decisions regarding exclusivity as yet, unless their weight contract with GE makes this compulsory not just on the 777.

For British Airways, image is also a major factor. I'm sure they could easily whip up a PR storm if they bought the 747ADV over the A388 which would negate any advantage other A380 operators could be perceived to have.
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clickhappy
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:23 am

I already told you  Smile

BA QA and CX for 10 each 747ADV @ Paris, the rumor of the past few weeks in Seattle.
 
atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 37):
I haven't seen any indication that Boeing have done any hard decisions regarding exclusivity as yet, unless their weight contract with GE makes this compulsory not just on the 777.

They were evaluating both engines for the 747Adv so it can't be a result of the 777 GE deal. I suspect GE will be aggressive about keeping the 747Adv if it comes to pass because it will give them the inside track on any 787 or A350 purchases for any airline purchasing the 747Adv.
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Planesmart
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 9):
With respect to the 747A, its more and more NOW or NEVER for Boeing....if it could land a 747A order from BA and maybe CX, the 747A program maybe can get off the ground. There is big gap in the market, between the A346/773 and the A380, maybe Boeing can fill it with the 747A and get the airline's attention.

They've offered prospects multiple options, firmed up one derivative, offered a stunning launch package bundled with 744, 777 & 787, and now finally add fear to the mix. If there is no 747ADV, you will have the choice of the A38 and nothing else for the next decade.

While gaining the ear of BA, CX and existing A38 customers, this has again raised the issue of exclusive engine suppliers. Highlighting risk/downside of no customer choice has apparently bitten B on the backside recently during 777 & 747ADV customer presentations.

Prospects should support ADV to ensure no market domination by A38, and on the other, not be concerned they have no engine supplier choice.

B need finance for the ADV. GE brought $'s, but RR wouldn't come to the party, presumably because they don't see the niche as big enough for two, and because GE had already done a deal.

Could the last gasp for B with a 747 in the shape we are so familiar with, be a launch at Paris with GE & RR power, plus newer 777's with RR too, and launch orders for both models from BA, CX and maybe even Singapore?
 
co7772wuh
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 25):
But, hold on a minute, didn't Boeing say there was little future market for giant planes like the 747? And that their future was in planes like their 787?

Maybe the 747ADV is the true dreamliner.

I beg to differ . Though , I see your point . However , Boeing was correct about the 787 ! The success of the 787 is obvious . And most likely correct about the super jumbo market at this time !!!

Since the ADV will require substantially less in development costs , requiring a rather low # of a/c orders to brake even and an a/c offering more flexablity , which may make it even more attractive then the A380 for certain airlines . Boeing is in a good position to take some potential A380 orders away from AB. That being said , every lost A380 order is a bigger blow to AB than to Boeing since the market may very well be small and the cost of the A380 R&D costs so high . Why should Boeing bet the farm at this time as AB may have done .

Though , the ADV is not directly competing with A380 . Having the ADV in the market will require AB to keep the prices down on the A380 and making it so AB won't have a complete monoply in the super jumbo market .

Boeing , I feel is in a very good position in regards to the ADV and the success of the 787 . And know that the ADV must be built .

 cool 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
The 747-Adv will have some major trump cards of its own. For example, the Adv will weigh 175,000 lbs less than the A388 but carry only 25,000 lbs less payload. The Adv also requires less airport modification than the A388, meaning greater flexibility in network planning.

If that is accurate . Then the ADV should be very competitive .

 scratchchin 
 
atmx2000
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 40):
Prospects should support ADV to ensure no market domination by A38, and on the other, not be concerned they have no engine supplier choice.



Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 40):
Could the last gasp for B with a 747 in the shape we are so familiar with, be a launch at Paris with GE & RR power, plus newer 777's with RR too, and launch orders for both models from BA, CX and maybe even Singapore?

Unless they are concerned about monopoly reasons only, I don't see why they would object to the GE 777LRs. The performance and reliability of the combo is known and is attractive. Any RR offering would be an open question. I would imagine that the concern for the 747Adv engine is that the engine platforms are untested, and thus not having a supplier choice makes things riskier.

If the combined market for 747Adv, 787s and A350s is large enough, and if selection of the first's engine type has any influence on airlines' choice of the engines for the latter two, then maybe both RR and GE would be willing to pay for the "privilege" of nonexclusivity so that they don't adversely affect their chances for 787 and A350 engine deals.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Planesmart
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 42):
Unless they are concerned about monopoly reasons only, I don't see why they would object to the GE 777LRs. The performance and reliability of the combo is known and is attractive. Any RR offering would be an open question. I would imagine that the concern for the 747Adv engine is that the engine platforms are untested, and thus not having a supplier choice makes things riskier.

My point has nothing to do with reliability or being untested, and everything to do with listening and responding to customers.

CX and BA are the front-runners for a 747ADV launch order. And despite being consulted on engine preference, B signed an exclusive with GE. Do you believe CX & BA would have said they were keen for an exclusive engine supplier? And if there was an exclusive supplier, do you believe they would have preferred GE?

As a customer, who is most likely to provide you with better pricing and customer service? The exclusive engine manufacturer or the manufacturer that must compete for every sale based on price and service?

In 2005 you have B offering the 787 with engine options / interchangeability, stressing to customers the importance for residuals, competitive pricing, service, etc. Plus you have B offering the 747ADV, highlighting to prospects that if it isn't launched, A will enjoy a monopoly in the very large end of the aircraft market until B launches a 787-based competitor in the next decade.

And on the other hand, with the 747ADV and certain 777 versions, you have the same company offering aircraft with an exclusive engine manufacturer, and thats supposed to be OK.

To launch the 747ADV, B must create a 'trigger' event. Offering an exclusive engine deal to two of the World's more conservative and successful airlines, doesn't seem to be the right approach.
 
dutchjet
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:38 am

Potential launch customers for the 747A at the moment are:

BA - huge 744 fleet, based at slot controlled LHR, has repeatedly stated that the A380 is simply too big for its needs.

CX - large 744 fleet, growing HKG hub, and unlike some other big airlines in Asia, has yet to order the A380. (although there is a rumor that a CX A380 order may be announced in Paris this week).

QF - flies a large 744 and 744ER fleet, due to geography requires lots of high-capacity longhaul pax, has made a commitment to the A380 but certainly not an adequate amount to repalce the 744 fleet (over time), does not have and has not ordered any other longhaul types (ie, 777 or A340NG).

Aside from the OneWorld connection, each of these airlines flies 744s with RR engines - is the 747A + RR engines the key to getting the 747A program off the ground?

JAL is another potential 747A prospect - it flies one of the largest (or is it the largest?) 747 fleets in the world which will need updating and replacement in the coming years.

SQ will be another major factor in this 747A story, they are still a very large 744 operator and I cannot imagine SQ not having an aircraft to bridge the gap between the 773 and A380. Other airlines in this category are LH, EV, KE and some others.
 
agill
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):

SQ will be another major factor in this 747A story, they are still a very large 744 operator and I cannot imagine SQ not having an aircraft to bridge the gap between the 773 and A380.

Wasn't it they who said that they wouldn't use the 474A?
 
Lemurs
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 43):
As a customer, who is most likely to provide you with better pricing and customer service? The exclusive engine manufacturer or the manufacturer that must compete for every sale based on price and service?

Only so far here...B also needs financing help and risk-sharing on these exclusivity deals, and they need to justify the costs of integration for multiple vendors on what might end up being a limited run of aircraft.

If GE is willing to put up the $$ and time, but CX and BA don't want to buy because they want RR, it might not even make sense to launch the ADV. It would cost Boeing more money and possibly more sales to others for very little return. Don't think Boeing made this choice lightly, because they are certainly aware what BA and CX would prefer.

It's just that the customer is not always right.
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Planesmart
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 46):
If GE is willing to put up the $$ and time, but CX and BA don't want to buy because they want RR, it might not even make sense to launch the ADV. It would cost Boeing more money and possibly more sales to others for very little return. Don't think Boeing made this choice lightly, because they are certainly aware what BA and CX would prefer.

It's just that the customer is not always right.

I'm not saying CX & BA want RR. They may order GE. My point is highlighting that B is stressing choice as key sales feature for 787 sales, and to keep A honest with A38, and then when it suits, exclusivity / no choice is OK.

No disrespect intended, but the customer IS always right, especially when you are trying to win a $1b plus contract. The customer isn't always right approach is what earned B the reputation of being arrogant and listening / respecting customers opinions. I thought B changed for the better from November 2004.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 47):
My point is highlighting that B is stressing choice as key sales feature for 787 sales

I don't think the 787 is stressing that at all. Many configurations that were optional with previous generation Boeings are now standardized. Boeing is trying to reduce what airlines can choose to increase the resale value of the airframe later in life.

There are some confusions with say, common engine pylon. It would seem to allow an airline to choose to swap engines, however, the purpose is to make the airframe itself as standardized as possible.

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 47):
No disrespect intended, but the customer IS always right, especially when you are trying to win a $1b plus contract

To an extent. Some of the options Boeing is eliminating are things like switch configurations, for example, the infamous AA 757 configuration versus TWA 757 configuration. There are also things like optional exit door configurations (763) versus standard doors (787).

Boeing isn't trying to alinate customers by eliminating options, just the opposite. If AA could swap TW's Pratt engines for Rolls Royce and have immediate cockpit commonality, the benefit of a seemless fleet would be great.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: British Airways In Talks About Buying 747Adv

Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Agill (Reply 45):
Wasn't it they who said that they wouldn't use the 474A?

They are rumored to be including the 747-Advanced in an upcoming RFP. Yes, they did say they would misuse A388/773ER, but it appears they are taking a more detailed look... or seraching for a better deal  Wink

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