hmmmm...
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Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 10:00 am

AP reports that there has been a plane crash in the Philippines today. Reports have it that the entire complement of 120 aboard the Air Philippines flight are feared dead. No info on plane type or cause.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Jubilee777
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 10:05 am

It was a B737-200.
The wreckage has reportedly been found.
 

J777
 
VirginA340
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 10:10 am

This is the nation's worst plane crash since the DC-9 crash that killed all 104 people when it crashed into a mountain a few years back. I don't know the name of the airline but I think it was a charter and probably belonged to the Philippines.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 10:55 am

Could the rudder be the culprit in this crash?
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 2:16 pm

If all aboard are dead as fered, this will be the Philippines' worst crash ever. The DC-9 crash there was Cebu Pacific Air, and occured February 2, 1998.
 
kaitak
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RE: Air Philippines' Fleet Is Old

Wed Apr 19, 2000 2:41 pm

Just watching the GMTV morning news here in the UK and it is confirmed that all 131 on board (tragically including 6 babies) were killed; footage showed that there were very few pieces of identifiable wreckage - I could only see the engine.

Looking at the JP, Air Philippines has an extremely old 737 fleet; of its 9 737-200s, seven are ex United, ALL of which are over 30 years old (LN 42 was built in 1967). The other two are both 78/9 build. Rudder failure is indeed a possibility as the aircraft was circling, but do also bear in mind that corrosion and fatigue could be a factor. Weather was not mentioned as a factor and seemed fine in the footage shown.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:07 pm

Can you say "rudder problem" ?
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Spacepope
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Possible Airframe Idenification

Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:13 pm

What about #6, delivered 9/9/67? (RPC2021).


The only ones less than 30 years old are the ex Southwest planes, which are only in their early 20's. CNN says that the plane has been in service for 22 years, which means that it WAS an ex Southwest plane (former N50SW-N53SW).


Right now we know that it was an Air Philippenes 737-200, flight 541 from Manilla to Davo
The last of the famous international playboys
 
N754PR
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Very Sad..

Wed Apr 19, 2000 4:55 pm

As a spotter that has visited the Philippines on many different trips I feel very sorry to hear this news. I have been on the Ramp at Manila and taken most of their fleet. Nice photos of the 737-200's and YS-11's

Very, Very Sad.

Daryl
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Panman
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 4:57 pm

I just love you guys. Why not quote the whole thing before you start blaming the rudder. The plane was CIRCLING to LAND. If it was an A320 and not a 737 would you guys be so quick to jump to a conclusion about the rudder?

PANMAN
 
MEA-707
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 6:28 pm

Panman is right.... at least wait for the accident investigations. Only few accidents are caused by too old aircraft or technical/design problems... Till now, this seems more a typical approach accident. Smaller third world country-airports don't have good ILS-facilities, many accidents do happen because the airliner is off course and crashes into ground or high terrain. But let's wait for more news first.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
Guest

RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 8:14 pm

Because the crash involved a 737, of course someone will think of the rudder. If it was an A320, the computer FBW system would be the main cause of concern.
 
Panman
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 8:46 pm

Just saw this on PPRUNE, written by The Guvnor:

"The aircraft that went down was a 1978 B737-200 Advanced, registration RP-C3010; s/n 21447 and line number 508. The aircraft was powered by the Pratt & Whitney JT8D-9A engines.

It was originally operated by US-based Southwest Airlines when it was registered as N50SW, It was purchased in November 1998 by AAR Aircraft & Engine Group and stored. Air Philippines leased it from March 1999 to December 2001."

panman
 
Guest

RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 9:05 pm

Heard on the news last night that a passenger on the plane called a relative and told them that there was an explosion on the plane before the plane crashed. Wonder if faulty wiring on the plane was the cause (TWA 800)?
 
N754PR
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Did Not See This One.

Wed Apr 19, 2000 9:24 pm

This is one of the latest aircraft they received and it was the second newest in the 737 fleet.

I however did not see this aircraft as it entered the fleet after my last visit.

Daryl
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
virgin744
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Wed Apr 19, 2000 9:25 pm

Below is a link to the list of all the passengers who were on board, if there's any of us out there concerned or worried about people we may have known travelling who could have been on board...

http://www.mb.com.ph/flash/2000/april/19aflb.asp
 
777X
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RE: Tedski

Thu Apr 20, 2000 1:27 am

Stop your useless scaremongering! Neither appears to be the case, but anyway it's FAR too early to start jumping to conclusions.

News stories today indicate that visibility was poor and the airport had no ILS, and had just reopened after being closed due to below minima conditions.

 
Guest

777x

Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:03 am

I am flying on a 737 late this month and next month, so of course this crash is bothering me so much!
 
Guest

RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:50 am

Rudder?
Faulty Wiring?

What a load of crap - people are drawing conclusions while the wreckage is still smouldering. Have you been to the crash site? Are you an accident investigator? What are you basing these assumptions on?

Stop drawing unfounded conclusions based on non-existent evidence. It's complete rubbish to say because a 747's fuel tank exploded, or there was possibly a rudder problem involved in 2 737 accidents 9 and 6 years ago, then they are likely to be the cause here.

Kaitak, I expected more from you - suspecting the rudder because the plane was circling - How many 737s circle every day? BTW - In the Colorado Springs/Pittsburgh accidents the aircraft weren't turning when the upsets occured.

Lets wait for some proper evidence and allow the experts to draw their conclusions.

At this time you should be thinking about people who have just lost their friends and families - not guessing what happened

TEDSKI, you've nothing to worry about flying on a 737!

James
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 6:04 am

I agree with you guys, stop criticizing the 737.
All that can be said for the moment is that it was a very old aircraft, operated with an airline that is not exactly 1st class for safety and maintenance, trying to land on a underequiped airport.
All the rest is only speculation.
 
goooooaaal
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 7:37 am

My condolences to the families of those killed in this deadly crash.

I just would like some explanation of why civil aviation has such a poor safety record in Southeast Asia and the Western Pacific...
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 7:47 am

I think what Kaitak was getting at when he mentioned that the plane was circling, is that when the 737 is configured for approach with flaps at 1, with weights greater than 110,000 lbs, and flying slow below 190 knts, below what they call the crossover speed, its ailerons do not produce enough lateral force to counteract the sideslip-induced roll produced as a result of an uncommanded full rudder deflection, should it occur. This is why some airlines, such as USAir, have instructed their pilots to come in faster than normal, to minimize the time spent in this vulnerable part of the flight envelope.

ALPA report on USAir427

We can begin to speculate as to the cause as soon as we know the nature of the crash. If we find out that it hit a mountain, flying too low, then we can forget about the rudder. If, however, it went nose first from 6,000 feet, for no apparent reason in clear weather, then we know that the serial killer has struck again.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
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American 767
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 7:54 am

I agree with you guys.
At this time we cannot say that the disaster of flight 541 bound from Manila was due to a faulty rudder system. How many 737 disasters involved rudders within the last 35 years? Two. United 585 in Colorado (1991) and US Air 427 in Pittsburg (1994). How many 737's fly everyday? Hundreds. At any time, over 800 737's are in the air. A 737 incident is not always due to the rudder.
Airline officials had said that there was nothing abnormal with the aircraft before departure.The aircraft's records in the maintenance log book show that it had no particular problem. This particular Boeing 737 was a 200 built 22 years ago. The 737-200 was built between 1966 and 1988, more than 1100 of those were made.

It is said that the cause of the crash is related to the weather; I really think so. There were low cloud layers and the Davo airport was not ILS equipped! When attempting an instrument approach, if the visibility is less than minimums published on the approach charts then the pilot must execute a go around, redo the approach or go to an other airport. The Cockpit Voice Recorder has been retreived from the crash site but the Flight Data Recorder is not recovered yet. I'm convinced that the cause of the crash is due to the weather which was below minimum and the lack of proper equipment for instrument approaches. Wait till you see what the Flight Data Recorder shows before you blame it on the rudder!

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
goooooaaal
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 7:57 am

My condolences to the families of those killed in this deadly crash.

My question is why such a terrible safety record for civil aviation in Southeast Asia and the Pacific Rim...
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 10:51 am

This is a terrible incident, especially when some so young die so soon. My condolences.

Though it's too soon to be drawing conclusions as to what the cause was, I'm not sure how many people are going to be wary of setting foot in a 737-200 or another old a/c after they hear the tragic news of the PAL crash, especially in a developing nation. Remember what happened to the DC-10 in the '70s? Many people tried rebooking flights or alternative modes of transportation just to avoid the DC-10, especially after the AA crash in Chicago. The DC-10 is actually a safe plane to fly in. The 737-200 actually has a better safety record than most Boeing aircraft!

Personally, I wouldn't worry about flying in a 737-200 or any other old plane flown by Canadian or any other North American carrier. These are often maintained very well, despite their age. It's more likely to do with the airline's maintenance record and airport facilities and how well their pilots handle their planes, rather than some defect in the plane's mechanism.

Unfortunately, many airlines and airports in developing nations do not have safety record as good as those in richer countries. Often, it is due to lack of suitable facilities because they're too expensive. Pilots may be undertrained compared to their counterparts in developed countries. Or the airline has a poor safety record because of either serious corruption, (I've seen cases like that, as some third-world carriers may try to save face or avoid censure by their governments or the FAA.) or they simply cannot afford the maintenance costs.
 
sfo
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RE: Samurai 777

Thu Apr 20, 2000 11:09 am

The ill fated carrier is Air Philippines not PAL (Philippine Airlines.) Air Philippines was one of several upstart Philippine carriers that started operating after the local airline industry was deregulated a few years ago.
 
teahan
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Stop

Thu Apr 20, 2000 11:14 am

Stop fighting and pray for the victims and families! 
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Samurai 777
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RE: Samurai 777

Thu Apr 20, 2000 1:59 pm

Thanks for correcting me on this one. I'd hate to get burned for confusing one airline with another. You'd be amazed at how many people confuse Western Pacific with Pacific Western Airlines(PWA). I've seen that happen in this forum, too. Good thing neither airline existed at the same time. No disrespect meant to those close to the 131 people who perished.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Plane Crash In The Philippines

Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:06 pm

It's funny. Right now we don't know any of the details on this crash other than it was a 737. Yet, on one hand, some posters tell us not to speculate on the rudder thing. Don't bad mouth the plane they tell us until the facts are in. Then they speculate that it could have been a maintenance thing, a Third World thing, a shoddy airline thing, or an "asian" thing. We don't want to bad mouth the plane. But we can bad mouth the airline, the country, the region, the airport, and the people that operate them. Most likely their fault.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Guest

A Bit More Detail

Thu Apr 20, 2000 9:35 pm

Hope I'm not drawing any unfounded conlusions, but this information is from today's paper;

The airport had been closed a short while before the 737 made it's approach due to low visibility due to fog.
Davao aiport has no ILS, and all approaches are non-precision approaches using a VOR procedure.

On it's first approach the 737 was unable to land because there was another aircraft on the runway, and the Air Philippines flight was cleared to circle round and land on the runway from the reciprocal direction.

According to witnesses the plane was low, clipped some coconut palms and tried to pull up, but it descended into the trees and crashed.

This doesn't sound like an uncommanded rudder deflectiom, in the PIT/COS crashes there were extreme bank angles and inverted/vertical dives with complete obliteration of the aircraft, none of which seem to have happened here.

It seems to be emerging as the all too familiar non-precision approach in low visibility type accident that happens all too often.

(Hmmm... - thanks for clarifying the rudder issue)

 
Samurai 777
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Even More Details

Fri Apr 21, 2000 4:03 am

The Air Philippines(not to be confused with PAL!) 737-200 was said to have undergone a routine maintenance check just prior to taking off from Manila. The plane didn't seem to have any obvious defects. The transmissions by the pilots seems to confirm that - there was no dialogue that would have indicated the plane had mechanical problems.

Operations at Davao Airport were suspended for a while because of low cloud ceiling that day, which may have been a factor, according to investigators. Davao's airport doesn't have the equipment necessary for instrument landings, or ILS. Others in this forum mentioned that, too.

Air Philippines is one of a number of upstart airlines which sprang up since 1996, when the aviation industry was deregulated. But poor maintenance and flight safety records have been so rampant that practically all of those upstarts have been warned and grounded by the Filipino government at one time or another.

The Filipino people are undestandably angry at the safety record of not just the aviation industry, but also other modes, too, especially ferries. In the last two weeks, at least 140 people were killed when an illegal ferry capsized. Another capsized, but fortunately, no lives were lost.