keesje
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Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:01 am

The board of European aerospace giant EADS was meeting in Amsterdam on a project to launch the Airbus A350 airliner.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...world_business/view/151555/1/.html

Seems a logical step towards Le Bourget.

Related Topic :
Rolls-Royce, Airbus in talks to offer adapted Trent 1000 engine on Airbus A350

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/06/07/afx2080426.html

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scbriml
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:28 am

Good news if RR are now on board. Always best for the customers to have an engine choice.
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MGA
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:06 am

Rolls Royce Group PLC has proposed an adapted version of the Trent 1000 engine destined for the Boeing Co Dreamliner 787 as an option for the Airbus SAS A350

What do they mean? SAS the airline? I´m confused!  Sad

Also, wouldnt it be better if they would offer diferrent options than theyre competeing product(company)? Same engines on A350 and 787 seems odd...

MGA
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norcal
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting MGA (Reply 2):
Also, wouldnt it be better if they would offer diferrent options than theyre competeing product(company)? Same engines on A350 and 787 seems odd...

one has bleedless engines (787) one has bleed engines (350). Bleedless is "claimed" to be better, but we'll just have to wait and see
 
Glom
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting NorCal:
Bleedless is "claimed" to be better, but we'll just have to wait and see

Whether or not it reduces fuel burn is in doubt. The principle advantage of bleedless systems, other than allowing fresher air in the cabin, is that it reduces maintenance costs (which helps the environment in its own small way). In bleed air engines, there are generators and pneumatics driving the a/c systems. In bleedless engines, there is only the generator and no messy pneumatic systems to deal with. That makes the design simpler, maintenance simpler and also allows the engines to be more easily interchangeable.
 
gigneil
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting MGA (Reply 2):
What do they mean? SAS the airline? I´m confused!  

The name of the company is Airbus S.A.S.

N
 
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scbriml
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting MGA (Reply 2):
What do they mean? SAS the airline?

Often causes confusion! SAS is the company suffix (I can't remember what it actually stands for) - in the UK it would be Ltd. or in the US maybe Corp. Hope I've made that clear!
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scbriml
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
The principle advantage of bleedless systems, other than allowing fresher air in the cabin, is that it reduces maintenance costs (which helps the environment in its own small way). In bleed air engines, there are generators and pneumatics driving the a/c systems. In bleedless engines, there is only the generator and no messy pneumatic systems to deal with. That makes the design simpler, maintenance simpler and also allows the engines to be more easily interchangeable.

All in theory at the moment - yet to be proven in practice.
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NYC777
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
That makes the design simpler, maintenance simpler and also allows the engines to be more easily interchangeable.

It also makes the aircraft lighter as you don't have to put in the associates duct work that is necessary with bleed air.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:03 am

It will be interesting to see how the two theoretical approaches to the engine work out; interesting to see which one works better in the real world.
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scbriml
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting NYC (Reply 8):
It also makes the aircraft lighter as you don't have to put in the associates duct work that is necessary with bleed air.

Presumably, all you're saving in the whole a/c system is the ducting from the engines to the fueslage? Where does the air come from for a bleedless a/c system - presumably some ducting is still needed from the inlet to the a/c distribution?
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RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
It also makes the aircraft lighter as you don't have to put in the associates duct work that is necessary with bleed air.

The engine is also more efficient because less airflow is diverted from thrust. More total thrust means less fuel used to generate the same thrust.
 
Glom
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting RichardPrice:
More total thrust means less fuel used to generate the same thrust.

The only with this is that the engine has to work the generator harder to produce the power to run the systems that are pneumatic in other aircraft. If the generator is a more efficient way of doing this than pneumatics then I can see how there would be savings.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:50 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 12):
The only with this is that the engine has to work the generator harder to produce the power to run the systems that are pneumatic in other aircraft. If the generator is a more efficient way of doing this than pneumatics then I can see how there would be savings.

Taking shaft power from the engine is very much more energy efficient then extracting compressor air, in fact the first thing you usually do with bleed air is pass it through a pre-cooler (basically throwing away energy eh?).

A large advantage to the bleedless arrangement, from the engine point of view, is not having to deal with the variable bleed extraction. This means you can design and operate the compressor "right on the dot" in terms of thermal cycle optimization, where a bleed engine has to be able to operate within a range of bleeding scenarios. This clearly is not a huge issue, since RR seems confident that adapting the -1000 to bleed air is feasible. I would guess FADEC allows for a "no bleed" and a "bleed" regime on the same hardware.

The big question is how much more efficient the "no bleed" regime is. I have seen guesses ranging from 1% do 3%, but even if the larger figure is true, its still a manageable (if significant) difference.

mrocktor
 
ikramerica
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
All in theory at the moment - yet to be proven in practice.

well, military tests of fighters with bleedless vs. bleed engines show substantial improvements. but of course, they have different airhandling requirements for a fighter pilots.
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Sjoerd
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:59 am

Nowhere (I can find) it is mentioned anymore that the B787s engines will be bleedless...

Sjoerd
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Glom
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Sjoerd:
Nowhere (I can find) it is mentioned anymore that the B787s engines will be bleedless...

That'll come as a shock to the engine manufacturers who now don't have an engine to sell.
 
Rj111
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:12 am

They're still bleedless. Boeing just no longer emphasises this fact since the engine manufacturers revealed the savings are actually quite modest.

[Edited 2005-06-07 23:16:28]
 
gigneil
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 15):
Nowhere (I can find) it is mentioned anymore that the B787s engines will be bleedless...

What are you talking about?

N
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
What are you talking about?

I looked on Boeing's website, GE's and RR's and nowhere it is mentioned that the engines (GEnx, Trent 1000) they're developping will be bleedless...
In the beginning it was described like that.

Sjoerd
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F14D4ever
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 12):
The only [problem?] with this is that the engine has to work the generator harder to produce the power to run the systems that are pneumatic in other aircraft.

AvWeek (March 28, p.51) suggests the generator load will be about four times that of a conventional bled engine. That kind of load can do nasty things to core compressor stall (surge) margin. R R claim to have solved this by extracting shaft power off the intermediate spool of their three-spool Trent 1000. Loading the I.P. shaft unloads the H.P. shaft, improving HPC stall margin. It's all very nicely described and charted in the article. Get yourself a copy.

Kinda makes me wish GE had a three-spool configuration. They've studied it on occasion, but have stayed with the two-spool config.

Sorry if this is drifting a bit off-topic.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
since the engine manufacturers revealed the savings are actually quite modest.

...when/where did they reveal that?
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A350
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:57 am

I never had any doubt that that a Trent 1000 powered A350 will come.

A350
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:30 am

What's the technical difference between the Trent 900 (from the A380) and non bleedless Trent 1000? They both seem to produce about 70k?
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trex8
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
since the engine manufacturers revealed the savings are actually quite modest.

...when/where did they reveal that?

try reading AWST occasionally, also their quote of a 787 manager about how they don't seem to be finding the degree of weight savings from bleedless that they thought they would
 
abba
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
It also makes the aircraft lighter as you don't have to put in the associates duct work that is necessary with bleed air.

This must be a matter of balance because you will still need to compress air for the cabin. Hence you will need to have some devise - a compressor - to do this work. Now in order to have this compressor working you will also need to have some power generated. So it cannot be as simple as just saying that the duct system is being saved because a more powerful generator and the equipment to produce pressure in the cabin also come at a weight price.

Abba
 
SonicZoom87
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:27 am

Just wondering, what airliners have the most powerful engines including of those who haven't come out yet? B777? A380? or the future A350/B787?
 
airtran737
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:31 am

Would that still be the 777-300 with the GE-90-115B?
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GEnxPower
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:19 pm

GE90-115B still holds the record for per engine basis. The A380F has the max total thrust, but it comes from 4 engines in total.

B787 is an all electric airplane. There will be no engine "bleed" but the engines need to power the entire airplane for all the systems. There will be more IFE, more features, electronic control windows etc etc.. There's gonna be more electric power consumption than ever. The Boeing requirement to us is 1 MW.
 
sq212
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 28):

Wow! Do they really need 1 MW of power? such power is enough to power our entire building (20 floor with 3,000 sq. m. floor area).
 
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Revelation
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:58 pm

Looks like the result of the vote on the A350 is "Non!", at least for now...

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2158487/

Industrial launch is now targetted for end of September.
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sebolino
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:13 pm

S.A.S. stands for Société Anonyme Simplifiée.
 
brons2
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RE: Eads Meets On A350 Airliner, RR -> Trent 1000

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
They're still bleedless. Boeing just no longer emphasises this fact since the engine manufacturers revealed the savings are actually quite modest.

Well even 1% would be a lot of money over a year's time in airline operations.
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