airish
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India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:20 am

India and Canada have agreed to increase the number of flights between the two countries.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...06/08/stories/2005060800930700.htm

http://www.dgca.nic.in/bilateral/canada0605.pdf
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B742
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:22 am

Who will introduce new flights, AI,AC,9W,IA...?

My guesses is that 9W will jump in, can 9W make a YUL,YVR,YYZ flight through LHR?

Rob!
 
karan69
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
My guesses is that 9W will jump in, can 9W make a YUL,YVR,YYZ flight through LHR

I think you are probably right, but only IF they get the aircrafts, my sources at 9W tell me that YVR[i hope this is the code for Vancouver] is on top priority, most probably via CDG.

However i do feel that N.India-MAN/LHR-YYZ would be great options too.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:05 am

This is quite promising! 
According to the article, my understanding is that esssentially they can operate double dailies into the respective cities. Is this limited to AC and AI or can include 9W?
I'd love to see AI AND 9W go daily into both YYZ and YVR.

Cheers,
Kaz

[Edited 2005-06-07 23:19:11]
 
sebring
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:12 am

AC will go into Mumbai, and launch YVR-DEL. I would expect YYZ-Bangalore flights by 2007. AC needs more aircraft for Bangalore and Mumbai, but can do Vancouver-Delhi with existing 343s.
 
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yyz717
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:20 am

Aerotransport database reports this week that Jet Airways will be adding 2 345's shortly, currently flown by Emirates. I presume the EK 345's are surplus due to the 773ER arrivals.

The 345 will certainly increase Jet's North American options.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:34 am

Your kidding right??? YYZ-BANGALORE!!! HAHA Come on?? In fact, the flight was unprofitable according to many sources...its low yielding VFR traffic at best........maybe you want double daily DEL too???
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shawnnyc
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:45 am

Did you all notice that the agreement does not allow aircraft bigger than the B747. Is this forshadowing of India not allowing the A380?

Also reading the agreement, it seems to me that India cannot fly to Canada via East Asia and pick up pax. If this is true, I wonder why the flights couldn't come from East or West?

[Edited 2005-06-08 00:53:15]
 
DYK
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:59 am

It would fantastic to see either AI or 9W into YVR. However I doubt very much AI will be interested in YVR, seems lack of aircraft and expansion is focused on SFO, IAH and other U.S. cities
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cbphoto
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 7):

I did not know that any airports with in India could handle the A380 nor where they plans to accommodate the aircraft, could be wrong though.

I remember reading WestJet wants to fly to Europe with there 737NGs. Hmmm...Maybe they could continue onwards to BOM????  Wink
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yyz717
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Slawko (Reply 6):
Your kidding right??? YYZ-BANGALORE!!! HAHA Come on?? In fact, the flight was unprofitable according to many sources...its low yielding VFR traffic at best........maybe you want double daily DEL too???

Chuckle. There is an incredible amount of unadultered hot air on all India threads right now regarding new services from India fueled by several factors: new bilaterals, Jet Airways 343 addition, Air-India Boeing order. It remains largely nothing but hot air. The fact remains that India remains largely a VFR market with piss-poor yields and hence marginal prospects.

The sheer giddiness surrounding the recent India-Iceland bilateral took the cake.

How about daily Saskatoon-Amritsar, or Thunder Bay-Madras while we're at it? Will Moncton get Air-India nonstop service in 2006 or 2007? Will it stop in Saint John NB on the way or terminate in YSJ? The opportunities are endless.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
shawnnyc
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 9):
I did not know that any airports with in India could handle the A380 nor where they plans to accommodate the aircraft, could be wrong though

You are right for now. But I would have thought that the Indian government would be signing new bilaterals mentioning the A380 if they intended to upgrade. Otherwise India would have to sign a ton more bilaterals to accommodate the aircraft.
 
cbphoto
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):

How about daily Saskatoon-Amritsar, or Thunder Bay-Madras while we're at it?


LOL...that is great, count me in for that inaugural flight!!!  laughing   Silly
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
B747-437B
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
Thunder Bay-Madras

Paging Texdravid....
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yul332LX
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:25 am

Annex 1, section 2 note 1

Only one point in Canada may be served on the same flight, except Montreal, which may be served in combination with any other point

...and add to that:

Annex 1, section 2 note 4

5th freedom right for pax (...) shall be available only between points in CAnada and one intermediate point in Asia (West of Asia), and three intermediate points in Europe to be named by India (including the UK) and three beyond points in the USA

Quite interesting I'd say.
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texdravid
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 13):
Paging Texdravid....

LOL!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
Saskatoon-Amritsar,

Calling all you other A.netters.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:03 pm

The sheer giddiness surrounding the recent India-Iceland bilateral took the cake.

Much of that thread involved deriding the India-Iceland bilateral and the context under which it occurred. Maybe you just didn't get it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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yyz717
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
The sheer giddiness surrounding the recent India-Iceland bilateral took the cake.

Much of that thread involved deriding the India-Iceland bilateral and the context under which it occurred. Maybe you just didn't get it.

The giddiness I was referring to was that of the 200+ Indians who felt the need to accompany the Indian PM for the crucial earth-shattering bilateral talks in KEF. Maybe you don't "get it".  Yeah sure
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:47 pm

The giddiness I was referring to was that of the 200+ Indians who felt the need to accompany the Indian PM for the crucial earth-shattering bilateral talks in KEF. Maybe you don't "get it".

No, its quite clear that you don't.
Or else you're just borrowing my line.
If you bothered to read that thread, you'd have noticed that I derided the entire far fetched stupidity of the entire operation.
You're just a Johnny-come-lately as usual.
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yyz717
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
If you bothered to read that thread, you'd have noticed that I derided the entire far fetched stupidity of the entire operation.

200+ Indians need to travel to Iceland to complete a bilateral. Complete utter nonsense. So we're in agreement. I bet the Icelanders were laughing when that loaded Air-India 744 left for home.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
You're just a Johnny-come-lately as usual.

Sigh. Another non-sensical insult from the safety of a keyboard. Sad.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:04 pm

Sigh. Another non-sensical insult from the safety of a keyboard. Sad.

Just taking a page out of your book.
You should be proud that someone's reading it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cslusarc
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:18 pm

That "trip to Iceland" was extremely important as Indian-owned carriers will be able to make stops in Iceland in route from India to Canada and the US, offering faster travel times than stoping in "traditional" airports like LHR, AMS, CDG, and FRA.

To bad Canada doesn't have a formal bilateral agreement with Iceland......
--cslusarc from YWG
 
mrniji
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 21):
That "trip to Iceland" was extremely important as Indian-owned carriers will be able to make stops in Iceland in route from India to Canada and the US, offering faster travel times than stoping in "traditional" airports like LHR, AMS, CDG, and FRA.

Yes, but a tech-stop is less lucrative than a 5th freedom stop in LHR or BHX or FRA or CDG, besides nonstops..
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
TKMCE
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 7):
Did you all notice that the agreement does not allow aircraft bigger than the B747. Is this forshadowing of India not allowing the A380?

I know a couple of airlines atleast who would have been thrilled for just getting a 747 capacity (even if the airlines dont have the aircraft themselves) in their bilaterals with India.

Take the recent one with Oman - Hyderabad is capped at 375 seats per week for WY!

Or even worse -Qatar airways - stuck at 500 seats per week fo HYD (even after the revised bilateral!). No wonder they quadurupled the flights to HYD
during winter open skies!!!!
 
karan69
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:22 pm

The routes that make sense are,

AC,
YYZ-DEL---7x
YVR-DEL---7x
YYZ-BOM--7x
YYZ-EU/UK-HYD--4x
YYZ-EU/UK-MAA--4x
YYZ-EU/UK-BLR---3x
YVR-ATQ---3x

AI,9W and S2[perhaps]
DEL-LHR-YYZ-----7x
BOM-CDG-YVR----7x
ATQ-BHX-YYZ----7x
GOA-MAN-YUL----5x
BOM-MUC-YYZ----7x
ATQ-BHX-YVR----3x,

Any additions,corrections,suggestions???
 
zvezda
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 24):

Any additions,corrections,suggestions???

India-Canada-USA flights?
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
India-Canada-USA flights?

Makes sense. Toronto as a scissor hub, offering non-stops to all Indian cities.
 
aseem
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 26):
Makes sense. Toronto as a scissor hub, offering non-stops to all Indian cities.

will Canadian bilateral allow that..if so then why not YYZ-DFW  bigthumbsup 
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
zvezda
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 27):
will Canadian bilateral allow that..?



Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 14):
Annex 1, section 2 note 4

5th freedom right for pax (...) shall be available only between points in CAnada and one intermediate point in Asia (West of Asia), and three intermediate points in Europe to be named by India (including the UK) and three beyond points in the USA

Reportedly so. DFW might make sense, as it is probably too far for a nonstop.
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:27 pm

That "trip to Iceland" was extremely important as Indian-owned carriers will be able to make stops in Iceland in route from India to Canada and the US, offering faster travel times than stoping in "traditional" airports like LHR, AMS, CDG, and FRA.

The trip to Iceland was a pointless junket payed for by the beleagured Indian tax payer that allowed a bunch of bureaucrats and the Indian press an escape from Delhi's wretched summer heat.

The only time I see an Indian carrier landing in Iceland is if an inflight emergency necessitates it. Or in another 50 years when future generations of bureaucrats need an escape from Delhi's crippling heat.
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hrhf1
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 14):
Only one point in Canada may be served on the same flight, except Montreal, which may be served in combination with any other point

Once again the Liberals are sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. Why would YYZ and YVR not be logical points that would allow codesharing much more easily for all involved??
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:26 am

Given the massive expansion of British and Indian carriers on routes between India-UK-North America, I really don't see a need for additional flights between India and Canada for awhile. Someone's going to fill those 50 additional India-UK flights, and I suspect that many will be Canada bound passengers.

If the airlines used the presence of a dozen Indians in every cow poke town in Canada or the US as a marker to launch a non-stop service to India, they'd be broke.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 30):
Why would YYZ and YVR not be logical points that would allow codesharing much more easily for all involved??

What's your point? Obviously YYZ an YVR would be more logical points for flights, and those are the places more likely to get them, not YUL. The appendix regarding YUL is indeed a bit strange, but it certainly does NOT mean that it's more likely to get service because of this statement. More likely than, say YWG, of course. But obviously not more likely that YVR or YYZ. I don't think you understand what you're criticizing.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
hrhf1
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 32):
I don't think you understand what you're criticizing

If Westjet is looking for international partners and establishing Codeshare flights, do you think they'd rather do it through YYZ, their eastern hub, or YUL?

It's artificial...you admit you don't know why it's there

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 32):
The appendix regarding YUL is indeed a bit strange

but clearly it's there for a reason, and that is to get more traffic through YUL.

It's artificial and meddlesome.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:53 am

You STILL don't understand what you're saying. This statement will have absolutely no negative effect on flights to YYZ or YVR. Obviously, the bulk of flights would go to YYZ or YVR. IF WS wants to codeshare on such flightts (and where the hell is that idea coming from? but anyway...) they would still, obviously do it through YYZ or YVR. I repeat: the amendment does absolutely nothing to hinder flights to YVR or YYZ. IF ANYTHING, it may help flights to YYZ, as it would allow an India-YUL-YYZ-YUL-India routing to beef up pax numbers. This only haas the effect of INCREASING options, and not decreasing them, for flights to YYZ and YVR. Your statements really indivate that you do not understand this at all.

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 33):
It's artificial...you admit you don't know why it's there

Of course it's artificial; that much is obvious. Further, it obviously exists to increase the chances of flights to YUL. No argument here, and I did not argue against that in my earlier post. But this amendment means that these flights would NOT BE AT THE EXPENSE of flights to YYZ or YVR, but would only increase options for routings to those cities (more realistically, just YYZ though.)

This artificial addition to the agreement does put YUL at an advantage in comparison to, say... YOW, or perhaps YYC. But I think both of those would be more doubtful for India flights anyway. I repeat: while this amendment is strange and seems more or less unnecessary, it does not interfere with flights to YYZ or YVR in any way whatsoever. I have no idea how you are drawing the conclusion that it does, unless you are just seeing the word YUL and are foaming at the mouth because of it.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
astral
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:18 am

More points for you all to think.
Other than Air Canada, attending the Bilateral Talks, there was executives from Harmony Airways and AirTransat. So ---- ??!!!
For Code Share issue, so far only Air Canada and Harmony Airways can code share, all others like Westjet, Canjet cannot. Why ? Because it is their business plan and decision, as such the setup of the airlines including reservation system and settlement procedure would not be able to handle the very complex code share process.
Lots of opportunity now for the two Canadian international IATA standard airlines.
 
hrhf1
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 14):
Only one point in Canada may be served on the same flight, except Montreal, which may be served in combination with any other point

The point is, Jean, that should a codeshare flight originate in any city outside of those listed in the agreement, it HAS to go through YUL. I'll admit the threat is not huge right now, but it's there. As far as WS and expansion to codeshares, why is that so crazy? If they could get extra pax on their domestic flights to international hubs, they'd be crazy not to.

Finally, as for YUL, I don't "foam at the mouth when I see it" at all. I love Montreal and look forward to flying there; however, there is an inordinate amount of Federal dollars, attention and concern paid to an airport(s) (see Mirabel) that is in reality the 3rd most important in the country (behind YYZ and YVR). I am nothing if not firm in my belief that the free market should decide how and where to operate and that government should let things develop to a natural course. I am not a fan of government dictation and mandates that make no sense (AC MUST be in HQ'd in Montreal)...let freedom reign...let AC HQ be in Halifax if they so wanted....
 
shawnnyc
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
Given the massive expansion of British and Indian carriers on routes between India-UK-North America, I really don't see a need for additional flights between India and Canada for awhile. Someone's going to fill those 50 additional India-UK flights, and I suspect that many will be Canada bound passengers.

Jaysit, I think you're underestimating the Indian population in YYZ and YVR. YYZ has a much bigger Indian populations than LA and Chicago (and YVR has similar). Take Indian concerts, both YYZ and YVR are big markets. While you are right, small towns should not receive flights now, these two need them badly (right now there are only 10 flights per week India-Canada). The gulf airlines want to start flights to Canada for who...India bound pax (as well as Pakistan). Plus Indian carriers have fifth freedom. So they can easily fly both YYZ and YVR via say MAN and do just fine (drop off half the pax from Canada in MAN and pick up half the pax for onward to India).

The point of the liberalization and allowing private carriers to fly abroad is so that Indian carriers can start behaving like foreign airlines exploiting pax that are not from their home country. I guarantee you an Indian airline will eventually fly YUL-CDG (and it definitely won't be for Indian pax originating in YUL).
 
jaysit
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:53 am

Jaysit, I think you're underestimating the Indian population in YYZ and YVR.

I'm not.

But you can't base a massive expansion program on VFR traffic alone. The reason the US is such a huge market is because of the sizeable high yield business traffic between the US and India in addition to the low yield VFR traffic that fills the back of the bus.

Can someone tell us what the load factors are on AC's daily YYZ-DEL flight? I'm sure its high in Dec/Jan or Jun-Aug, but what about the rest of the year?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
DYK
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:20 am

"Jaysit, I think you're underestimating the Indian population in YYZ and YVR."

Vancouver has a very large Indian population and growing by large numbers each year. I think with a 9W or AI service into Vancouver will have an effect on other carriers which depend on the Indian traffic, carrier such as KLM, Lufthansa, SIngapore and JAL as well Aeroflot ex Seattle. So I am curious what effect a new link to India will have on these other carrier in terms of frequency and aircraft?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:24 am

Hrhf1,

I don't have any disagreement whatsoever with your concern for federal favouritism towards YUL. I too believe this stuff should be decided by the market. Once againg, I did say this 'annex' statement was strange, and i did say it could give YUL an unfair advantage. But NOT at the expense of YYZ or YVR, only at the expense of other smaller airports that could have benefitted from a two-stop service (such as YYC or YOW). I still do not see how this would negatively impact flights to YYZ or YVR, or what it has to do specifically with codeshares.

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 37):
should a codeshare flight originate in any city outside of those listed in the agreement, it HAS to go through YUL.

As for this comment... are we reading different documents? As far as I can see, the statements copied above do NOT require any such passage through YUL. Is this another part of the document that has not been quoted thus far? If so, please inform. But the statements above do NOT say that any flight from another city must pass through YUL, but only that YUL (for no apaprent reason, I again acknowledge!) can be served in conjunction with another airport, whereas others cannot. This would have no impact whatsoever on a desired direct flight to YYC, YWG, etc.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:56 am

Well, I've read through the whole thing now. Indeed, there is NO requirement stating that all flights to cities other than those designated must pass through Montreal. Nothing like that at all.

It seems to be that the provision for services stopping in YUL as well as another canadian city are intended to mirror the provision for the same status for Kolkuta. Perhaps the Indian request for this status came firts, and YUL seemed like the best fit to have a similar provision (to the Canadian negotiators). My guess would be that both cities were considered ones that could benefit from this exemption.

Perhaps an Indian member could explain the situation of Kolkuta; that might help clarify what the provision for YUL is intended for.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
shawnnyc
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 41):
Perhaps an Indian member could explain the situation of Kolkuta; that might help clarify what the provision for YUL is intended for.

You are right the provision is there only because of CCU. India often allows this exemption for CCU to encourage flights there (right now BA is the only major Euro carrier to serve CCU).

Quoting DYK (Reply 39):
So I am curious what effect a new link to India will have on these other carrier in terms of frequency and aircraft?

If convenient new service happens, I think it will affect secondary players a lot. Indian carriers have low cost basis and fifth freedom rights which should make them competitive. I don't think Indian carriers will start nonstops in the beginning as the fifth freedom via europe lowers risk, and starting nonstops to US are more important now.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:46 am

Ok, so, correspondingly, Canada does want to encourage flights to Montreal, and have provision to do so because of the CCU provision. Is this, in itself, unfair? Well, if one believes that, say, YYC or YOW would be better served by this incentive, then yes. If, however, YUL makes more sense or is more likely to receive a flight than whatever other city might have been chosen, then it's a fair designation, I would say. Not being sure about ties to India (cultural or economic) in YYC et al., I am not sure.

If it is true that YUL:

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 36):
is in reality the 3rd most important in the country (behind YYZ and YVR

then I think it only makes sense that this provision was added. Thus, I don't think it is necessarily an indication of further federal favouritism of YUL (the rest of which is not really relevant to this topic). If someone could make a case that another city would be better suited to this provision, then I would like to hear that!
Next flight.... who knows.
 
hrhf1
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:49 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 43):
If someone could make a case that another city would be better suited to this provision, then I would like to hear that!

Jean, unfortunately you've insisted on the approach in earlier posts today that I think this is to the detriment of YYZ or YVR, which is not my point. My point is there is no reason to include in these provisos the YUL condition if free market conditions rule the day.

Although you've tried to dismiss my other comments as irrelevant, they are relevant in that the point is PAX and their needs should determine routes, not continuous federal interference. Indeed the Indian delegation may have requested the CCU notation for their own needs, but the Indian transportation markets needs have no bearing on Canada's. Although they may have requested it first, its no reason for our Government to do the same.

Were YUL the dominant hub with a thriving Indian populace over YYZ, I'd think the same in reverse. I simply look at this document and while admirable in opening up oppourtunities for 2 countries, still makes me think the Liberals couldn't resist yet another oppourtunity to curry some favour from the Quebec populace.
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:40 am

So to clarify, you think it would have been better for Canada not to have sought for ANY city to have the privelege of being a second Canadian stop on a route, and just let India have this provision on its own? You claim that that is your main point. I guess I can't agree with that. I simply don't see how there would be anything to gain in that scenario. It would simply mean that NO city would have that privilege in Canada, while in India, CCU would have it. I think that would defeat the purpose of trying to engineer a fair bilateral agreement, no? If this provision is available, why not use it? As I see it, it adds a couple of options for carriers, although they are options that are unlikely to be used any time soon. My point is though, that it doesn't TAKE AWAY any options whatsoever. So I'm not sure I see what the problem is with it.

The whole point of this document is for the two governments to decide on where the flights should go. Isn't it all, then, "continuous federal interference"? I simply don't see what makes the provisions regarding CCU/YUL so particularly villainous.

I have at no point disputed the fact that the Liberals like to "curry some favour from the Quebec populace", and nor have I suggested that this is a good thing. But unless a better case could be made for another city to receive this status under the agreement, I don't see how this is an example of it.

Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier points, but your posts #30, #33, and #36 seem to indicate that you think flights would be FORCED to go through YUL under this agreement, which is simply not the case. You twice bring up YYZ and YVR as better places from which to have codeshare flights. My point is that the provision regarding YUL does not hinder that in any way.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
HanginOut
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 3:24 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 24):
The routes that make sense are
AI,9W and S2[perhaps]
BOM-CDG-YVR----7x

I wonder how Air France would react to this, considering they've been trying to get the rights to fly to YVR for ages. This route would be great for the Indian carriers (and perhaps AC, if they think that a route to India is viable via CDG).  scratchchin 
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 46):
I wonder how Air France would react to this, considering they've been trying to get the rights to fly to YVR for ages. This route would be great for the Indian carriers (and perhaps AC, if they think that a route to India is viable via CDG).

AF (or should I say, France) probably has a veto to deny this "right" to the Indian carriers (or even Canadian carriers for that matter).

[Edited 2005-06-09 02:30:13]
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
shawnnyc
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:48 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 47):
AF (or should I say, France) probably has a veto to deny this "right" to the Indian carriers (or even Canadian carriers for that matter).

France does not (although I think India is limited to just one point in Canada). France got expanded access to India in return. Indian carriers need to be smart with their 5th freedoms and identify routes between Europe and North America that are underserved.
 
hrhf1
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:49 am

RE: India And Canada Agree On More Flights

Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 45):
you think flights would be FORCED to go through YUL under this agreement, which is simply not the case

Jean, perhaps I am reading this wrong, so enlighten me if I am. The note reads that

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 36):
Only one point in Canada may be served on the same flight, except Montreal, which may be served in combination with any other point

, so yes, if I were to take ACxxx to YYZ or YVR, then yes I could hop on ACyyy to Delhi and all is fine and dandy.

What I read though is if Air India for instance is having a codeshare, or for that matter if AC scheduled it's flights in such a way as to consolidate 1 flight number for say, YYC then it would have to go through YUL as it is involving more than one point in Canada. Yes, there are ways to skirt this system and connect where you want but I think directing pax through a city with a tenuous grip on the East Indian community at best is silly.

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