bells
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A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:48 pm

EADS has just announced the A350 will not be launched at Paris. They are now aiming for the "end of September".
 
kl911
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:51 pm

And they had +100 orders? I don't get it........ Do you have a link to the story?

KL911
 
HEGAN
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:51 pm

And all those orders???

Agur,
Hegan
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
EADS has just announced the A350 will not be launched at Paris. They are now aiming for the "end of September".

Come on you gotta learn... when it comes to a story like this you have to include the SOURCE!  Wink
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teva
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:04 pm

maybe part of the issue is the compensation for the EKs A380 delay.
the deal about the A350 has to be re-negotiated because of this, and they will probably make the announcement during the DXB airshow.
teva
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:10 pm

Quoting Teva (Reply 4):
maybe part of the issue is the compensation for the EKs A380 delay.
the deal about the A350 has to be re-negotiated because of this, and they will probably make the announcement during the DXB airshow.

Perhaps, but Leahy made the "100+ A350 announcement" comment AFTER they had announced the A380 delay so for all I know, this could be a hoax. That's why I am asking for a source. I can't find anything about it on the net. It doesn't make sense.
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boeingbus
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 3):
Come on you gotta learn... when it comes to a story like this you have to include the SOURCE! Wink

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...1_YUE841419_RTRUKOC_0_ARMS-BAE.xml

""We at BAE Systems (BA.L: Quote, Profile, Research) are fully supportive of the programme as are the customers, with more than 100 commitments already taken," he said."
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:17 pm

This could be the reason - the EADS Board can't reach agreement:-

"Separately, EADS directors failed to reach a decision on whether to officially launch the A350 after a meeting Tuesday, French newspaper Les Echos reported. The board is meeting again Wednesday, AFX News reported.

"Industry observers expect the official launch of the A350 to take place next week at the Paris Air Show."


http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...81B7-386FF89F9BF5%7D&siteid=google
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 6):

Wahaaay, thanks for the link Big grin

"EADS, which holds the other 80 percent, said on Wednesday the boards of the two firms aimed to proceed towards the full industrial launch of the A350 programme by the end of September"

This is not to say that they will not announce their A350 orders at Paris. This is only saying that the industrial launch date is somehwere between now and September. So nothing new here. Either way, I think they will make a big deal of the A380 and ensure that's the focus of attention, rather than the A350 (for now at least).
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PM
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:24 pm

However they try to spin this, it doesn't inspire confidence. The A350 is having a very troubled birth. It's beginning to look as if 2005 will be a year that Airbus will want to forget.
 
flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
However they try to spin this, it doesn't inspire confidence. The A350 is having a very troubled birth. It's beginning to look as if 2005 will be a year that Airbus will want to forget.

Troubled year? Yes considering the delay with the A380 and current A350 complications. But I wouldn't go as far as saying they want to "forget it". So the US is giving them a hard time regarding the financing of the A350? So what... it will be sorted out. Where there's a will there's a way. And there definately is a will  Wink
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aeronuts
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:29 pm

Makes good sense for not launching the A350 during the show. Look at it this way - why split your focus - you've got the A380 as "THE PLANE" at the show. Why split the time with the A350? Airbus can always launch the A350 at a later date, to continue the buzz AFTER the Paris air show.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:29 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
However they try to spin this, it doesn't inspire confidence. The A350 is having a very troubled birth. It's beginning to look as if 2005 will be a year that Airbus will want to forget.

Beginning to look? I am afraid its already past that.  Sad

Anyway, is it possible that the recent delay of the new Airbus CEO may be playing a factor in this decision?

By the way I understand it - Airbus have what you may call an Authority to Offer the A350 now, but won't commit to a "full industrial launch" until later September?

If thats the case I fear its more an internal Airbus issue with senior management than anything else, but thats just my feeling.  Wink
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boeingbus
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:30 pm

The reason for this is that they lost one of their 'expected' order the Qatar for 60 units. So this would be another Airbus customer going for Boeing.

I don't want to reveal a source but lets say its a hunch.... and speculation for now...

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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 12):
By the way I understand it - Airbus have what you may call an Authority to Offer the A350 now, but won't commit to a "full industrial launch" until later September?

If thats the case I fear its more an internal Airbus issue with senior management than anything else, but thats just my feeling.

They have only said that the official industrial launch will be by the end of September. Nothing else, so you can still expect them to be taking and announcing orders at Paris. As you have mentioned, it is an internal thing. Thanks to NAV20's article you can see the main reason behind this were the legalities regarding how to pay for the project... which is not being made easy for them at the moment. Again, nothing new!
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monteycarlos
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
The reason for this is that they lost one of their 'expected' order the Qatar for 60 units. So this would be another Airbus customer going for Boeing.

Not disputing that QR may have done this, I do not believe that is the reason for this. Quite simply, it would be stupid for Airbus to sit back and let Boeing have the floor in announcing such a big order and delaying the much awaited announcement of the plane they want to compete with it.

As I believe the article NAV20 posted stated, the reason is a funding issue concerned with the talks between the US governments and the WTO.

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 14):
Thanks to NAV20's article you can see the main reason behind this were the legalities regarding how to pay for the project... which is not being made easy for them at the moment. Again, nothing new!

I expect that they will need those few extra months to sort out the legalities and other issues associated with obtaining the launch funds from another source?

[Edited 2005-06-08 15:09:10]
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 15):
Not disputing that QA may have done this, I do not believe that is the reason for this. Quite simply, it would be stupid for Airbus to sit back and let Boeing have the floor in announcing such a big order and delaying the much awaited announcement of the plane they want to compete with it.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Besides when did Qatar or Leahy ever state that there was an A350 order from their side. Airbus still talks of a 100+ order so unless there were like 175 last week, I doubt Qatar is an issue.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 15):
I expect that they will need those few extra months to sort out the legalities and other issues associated with obtaining the launch funds from another source?

Or from the same source, but with more paperwork  Wink
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dynkrisolo
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 12):
Airbus have what you may call an Authority to Offer the A350 now

That was in December when Air Europa announced their MOU.
 
zvezda
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:59 pm

I think these "orders" are still rather speculative. Boeing could probably still win the EK order by offering a B787-10. I don't think that's likely in this time frame, but it's possible. We'll have to wait a week to see.
 
NYC777
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:38 pm

Well Airbus has said that they could develop the A350 w/o launch aid, they could have proceeded with full launch if that was the case given their statement. So I do not believe that it is the WTO dispute that is holding up the industrial launch. There must be another reason for the delay in my opinion.
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Sjoerd
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:38 pm

Airbus only announced 100+ orders for the A350 in Paris, they never announced a launch of the program.

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monteycarlos
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
I think these "orders" are still rather speculative. Boeing could probably still win the EK order by offering a B787-10. I don't think that's likely in this time frame, but it's possible. We'll have to wait a week to see.

Yeah, on one hand Airbus seems confident that it has 100 orders for the aircraft (which would tend to make one think that EK was in there) but on the other hand there is industry speculation that EK are very much open to suggestions - however I don't feel the 787-10 is an option. Boeing has said nothing about it, and if it were to be offered the time frame would be a very large drawback if it were to win the EK order.  Wink
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KFLLCFII
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:42 pm

I'm confused. When Airbus first announced this new type called the A350, wouldn't that have been considered the "launch"? Why would they take orders for something that hasn't even been "launched" yet?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:48 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
Why would they take orders for something that hasn't even been "launched" yet?

That's how it always works. The first order and industrial launch are usually concurent. Creating an airliner goes something like this, I will deliniate at which point this happened with the A350 and 787

- Conceptual product announced (A350- Nov 04) (787- Jan 03)
- Athority to offer the product given to sales team (A350- Dec 04) (787- Dec 03)
- First order and industrial launch (A350 - ?) (787- Apr 04)
- Design freeze (787- Summer 05)
- Production start (787- Jan 06)
- Prototype roll-out (787- Jan 07)
- First flight (787- Jan 07)
- Certification and Entry to Service (787- Jan 08)

That's just in a nutshell, of course...
 
monteycarlos
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:49 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
I'm confused. When Airbus first announced this new type called the A350, wouldn't that have been considered the "launch"? Why would they take orders for something that hasn't even been "launched" yet?

No, its the same as Boeing and the 747Adv. or even the 787 (7E7) for that matter. Essentially there are a number of stages involved with a new type.

Obviously the R&D, and all the associated economics and market "games" and then they announce it... and then they authorise the salespeople to sell it, and then the industrially launch it (where the funding comes and the thing starts to get the real momentum) and then they make it, test it etc.

For example, technically people know the 747Adv. exists because Boeing have announced it - but they haven't authorised it for sale yet which is why their is never-ending speculation here as to what is going on with it.

A little confusing I agree.

*Edit* - See DfwRevolution's post above! A really good explination of it all!  Wink

[Edited 2005-06-08 15:52:27]
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boeingbus
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 20):
Airbus only announced 100+ orders for the A350 in Paris, they never announced a launch of the program.

while true no formal announcement was made... Nervetheless, everyone expected an announcement in Paris...

When you have Leahy running around raising everyone's expectations for over 100 to 150 A350 orders to be announced in Paris, how can you NOT expect a launch w/ that many orders in the bag? At the largest airshow in Paris no less... This just hurts Airbus' credibility. I don't think the WTO has anything to do with the launch... EADS/Airbus has the cash and creditors to launch this program and when you have this many orders - it just doesn't sound logical.

I wonder if the A350 has promised too much for one customer is the issue??? Possibly, the issue may lie in the continue bickering and disarray of upper management. Whatever it may be... Something triggered this... And eventually it will be found out....
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airfrnt
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
EADS has just announced the A350 will not be launched at Paris. They are now aiming for the "end of September".

Holy cow. This is a big deal, it smacks of the exact same behavior Boeing did when they tried to launch the various 747 derivatives. Remember that Boeing was openly talking about 250 commitments at launch of the 787.

It's also interesting because there is a growing community inside of the UK that is opposed to the launch aid that the UK was planning on giving Airbus pointing out that UK laws restrict such aid to situations where the vendor could not get the aid by any other means.

Between that and the WTO and also Boeing's continued success with the 787, launching the A350 is by no means a no brainer. The 350 does not directly compete with the 787. While there are sales to be had by besting the 777, the 777 is a new plane, and the bulk of it's orders have already come. The 767 and A300 needs replacement so they must target that market directly.
 
flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 25):
I don't think the WTO has anything to do with the launch... EADS/Airbus has the cash and creditors to launch this program and when you have this many orders - it just doesn't sound logical.

It has the cash and the creditors but certain people are whining about that so first they have to get those obstacles "out the way" to put it nicely. It sounds very logical and this is what the article STATED. That's more credible than a.net speculation.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 26):
The 350 does not directly compete with the 787

Oh really now? You better have another look at the numbers! Those two aircraft sure are competing with eachother. Have a look at the various derivatives  Wink
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boeingbus
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 27):
first they have to get those obstacles "out the way" to put it nicely

and do you believe everything you read? Look, this doesn't look to good... no matter what excuses they come out with... a WTO case takes years of investigation and trials... So if Airbus is trying to get over that obstacle, they are going to launch this in 2010!!!!

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 27):
. That's more credible than a.net speculation.

This is not speculation. It's more of common sense. Fact: Boeing officially launched the 7E7 w/ only 50 commitments. Fact: According to Leahy, Airbus has over 100 commitments... so why can't Airbus launch the A350?

This doesn't make any sense and it's not good PR for Airbus.
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airfrnt
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 27):
Oh really now? You better have another look at the numbers! Those two aircraft sure are competing with eachother. Have a look at the various derivatives

The A350 is considerably larger then the 787. While there is overlap between the largest 787 and the smallest A350, the plane is really targeted (at least according to the last public specs) against the 777. Hence EK's decision to go with the A350 over the 787. They really believe that the 787 is too small for them.

( I think EK would think the Spruce Goose would be too small for them).
 
NYC777
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 29):
( I think EK would think the Spruce Goose would be too small for them).

These guys think the A380-800 is too small for them. Hate to be on a 650 passenger plane though. Sounds like EK wants to fly cattle trains.
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zvezda
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 29):
The A350 is considerably larger then the 787. While there is overlap between the largest 787 and the smallest A350, the plane is really targeted (at least according to the last public specs) against the 777. Hence EK's decision to go with the A350 over the 787. They really believe that the 787 is too small for them.

The A350-900 -- if launched -- will kill the B777-200ER. However, the A350-800 would compete with the B787-9.
 
boeingbus
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 31):

The A350-900 -- if launched -- will kill the B777-200ER.

I wouldn't be so sure. The 777 has features that still set it apart... such as cargo volume, range and a wider fuselage. so while, the A350 may consume less fuel w/ the 777 airlines potentially make more money on cargo, fly further and roomier interior... and plus, its part of a family so yes existing Airbus customer will find the A359 a pleasant upgrade but existing customers 777 may not....

Therefore the A359 is not a good substitute for the 777. At least from the numbers I am hearing.

Of course, nothing would prevent Boeing to announce a more efficient 772 using the bleed version of the new GenX and Trent 1000 sooner rather than later....
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
and do you believe everything you read? Look, this doesn't look to good... no matter what excuses they come out with... a WTO case takes years of investigation and trials... So if Airbus is trying to get over that obstacle, they are going to launch this in 2010!!!!

No I only believe what I feel is a credible source. Airbus is not coming up with excuses. They don't have to give anybody excuses. They are just letting the public know what is going on. Don't know where you came up with the idea that they are trying to justify the september launch to any of us  Confused

And it will be 2010-2012 by the way.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
so why can't Airbus launch the A350?

Maybe because they are busy with the recent A380 mess and because somebody is complaining that they are getting funding from it's countries  sarcastic 
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 29):
The A350 is considerably larger then the 787. While there is overlap between the largest 787 and the smallest A350, the plane is really targeted (at least according to the last public specs) against the 777. Hence EK's decision to go with the A350 over the 787. They really believe that the 787 is too small for them.

Sorry this is not correct. Again people are confusing the different A350 derivatives. This is why I said you should have another look at the numbers. The A350-800 has ~dozen seats less than the B787-900 so it is not larger. The A350-900 (the one you are referring to) has a few seats less than the B772. So the A358 competes with the B789, and the A359 competes with the B772. Capiche?  Wink

Hope that makes more sense now!
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Ken777
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:50 pm

The comment in one of the articles about Airbus willing to give up government financing if certain conditions are met might be one of the keys. This can be worked out rather fast if everyone comes to the table and talks about it in a reasonable manner. (A "reasonable manner", unfortunately, can mean very different things to different people.) If this is the situation then things could settle down rather fast.
 
zvezda
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 32):
I wouldn't be so sure. The 777 has features that still set it apart... such as cargo volume, range and a wider fuselage. so while, the A350 may consume less fuel w/ the 777 airlines potentially make more money on cargo, fly further and roomier interior... and plus, its part of a family so yes existing Airbus customer will find the A359 a pleasant upgrade but existing customers 777 may not....

Therefore the A359 is not a good substitute for the 777. At least from the numbers I am hearing.

The A350-900 won't touch the B777-200LR, but it will eat the B777-200ER alive. The A350 has greater range, similar cargo capabilities, and much lower costs. The airlines will not choose a B777-200ER over an A350-900 just for a "roomier cabin".

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 32):
Of course, nothing would prevent Boeing to announce a more efficient 772 using the bleed version of the new GenX and Trent 1000 sooner rather than later....

Nothing except insufficient thrust.
 
flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
A "reasonable manner", unfortunately, can mean very different things to different people

Haha, yeah 

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
If this is the situation then things could settle down rather fast.

I would hope so for the sake of both sides  

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
The A350-900 won't touch the B777-200LR, but it will eat the B777-200ER alive. The A350 has greater range, similar cargo capabilities, and much lower costs. The airlines will not choose a B777-200ER over an A350-900 just for a "roomier cabin".

Plus they have manged to make the A350 have a roomier cabin without widening the fuselage I've read in an article. Would be curious to see how they've done this and what it looks like...

[Edited 2005-06-08 16:57:46]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 31):
The A350-900 -- if launched -- will kill the B777-200ER.

Which raises the question, was it already dead? Could Boeing really get another 100 orders from the 772ER, A350 or no A350?

The niche that the 772ER targeted, 300 seat B-market, went through explosive growth in the 1990s, but by 2002-2005 had slowed significantly. Since sales of other 777 models, namely the 773ER, picked up substantially, I wouldn't attribute the 772ER's slump to just events like 9/11, SARS, and economic recession. That market itself was slowing down, and as evidence, I would point to the fact that Boeing has only scored a single new customer for new-build 772ER in the last year.

For 772ER customers with small fleets that can be rolled-over without serious headache (LY or VN, for example) the A350 could be a compelling product. I see little reason for the mega-777 customers to roll their fleets over when it's likely that Boeing will have some sort of modern 777 replacement at some point, and most of their fleets would just be amortizing by 2010.
 
HEGAN
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:01 am

As finanzas.com says, Airbus will launch the A350 in September, and it will be so due to the commitments they have and which will be announced at Paris.

It also says (quoting La Tribune) that one of the commitments come from Qatar (with the possible 60 orders). Airbus hopes to reach 200 orders by year's end (familiar???)

So it seems that this is not such a bad news.

Agur,
Hegan
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RayChuang
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:03 am

Why do I have this feeling that the A350 launch delay may have been caused by Emirates Airways (EK) quietly reaching a deal with Boeing to buy more proven-track-record 777's (including a substantial 777-200LR order) and possibly buying maybe 20-30 787-9's for some of EK's less-busy routes?

The A350-9 may look attractive but given Airbus' constantly changing the specs of the plane that would cause a serious delay in development time, and I don't think EK wants to wait that long.
 
atmx2000
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
The A350-900 won't touch the B777-200LR, but it will eat the B777-200ER alive. The A350 has greater range, similar cargo capabilities, and much lower costs. The airlines will not choose a B777-200ER over an A350-900 just for a "roomier cabin".


Since when has it had greater range and similar cargo capabilities? The range numbers I have seen are lower, and while the A359 probably has greater cargo volume, I haven't seen Airbus claim greater payload weight.
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting HEGAN (Reply 39):
So it seems that this is not such a bad news.

No it never was, and I believe the thread title was quite misleading in that sense in order to create some hyped-up, heated, speculative discussion.

"A350 industrial launch date now confirmed" would have been more reasonable.
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wingman
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:10 am

Two factors at play here I'm sure. One is the recent SIA news about a 250 seater RFP. This could really be worrying to Airbus if they are suddenly seeing a 350 that is oversized for the bulk of potential customers. I agree that EK will buy anything made by Airbus and if they had launched a 1500 seat 380 EK would be demanding a 2500 seater. Their market predictions and forecasts are singular to Dubai and have little basis in "fact" for 90% of the world's other airlines. Second is the launch aid question. This news today from the EU tells me that the US case against Airbus must be looking pretty tight in Brussels. The EU's primary argument is that US governmental and NASA subsidies for advanced technology research that somehow ends up in Boeing commercial aircraft to the detriment of Airbus sales. Think about that argument for a few seconds and you realize that based on Airbus' own marketing statements over the past 20 years about Boeing aircraft and their own stellar sales success and any first year law student would have an easy time with it. So, with $3-$4B in payments looming on the 380 and another $5-$6B in outlays for the 350 and my guess is that some folks at Airbus are not feeling too comfortable right now. And this doesn't include the $12B in their own money for the 380.
 
HEGAN
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:11 am

Quote:
"A350 industrial launch date now confirmed"





Yes probably a much better title. The main idea I think is that thanks to the 100+ commitments the A350 will be launched in September.

The following Weeks will be really interesting.

Agur,
Hegan
HEGAN: Euskadiko Aeronautikako eta Espazioko Clusterra
 
airfrnt
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:13 am

I said:

Quote:

While there is overlap between the largest 787 and the smallest A350, the plane is really targeted (at least according to the last public specs) against the 777.

You said:

Quote:

The A350-800 has ~dozen seats less than the B787-900 so it is not larger.

And the media says:

Quote:

Even before the recent changes, the A350-800 and A350-900 were bigger than the 787-8 and 787-9. In a two-class configuration, the 787-9 will seat 258 passengers, or 35 more than the 787-8

I think that qualifies as "overlap between the largest 787 and the smallest A350

I said:

Quote:

the plane is really targeted (at least according to the last public specs) against the 777. Hence EK's decision to go with the A350 over the 787. They really believe that the 787 is too small for them.

You said

Quote:

The A350-900 (the one you are referring to) has a few seats less than the B772. So the A358 competes with the B789, and the A359 competes with the B772.

Leahy Says:

Quote:

"We have about same number of seats, and I can fly about same range, within a couple hundred miles, but burn 30 percent less fuel and I'm doing it with a much quieter airplane," Leahy said of the A350-900 versus the 777-200.

Which I think makes my second point. Airbus is not going to win many A358 versus 787 battles. They may win a fair number of 772 versus A359 battles. Hence my assertion. Also note that the A350 is not even trying to compete against the two smaller 787s.
 
N60659
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:45 am

Well, at the end of 2004, when Airbus made their initial product offering of the A350, it appeared to be ill-conceived and lacking in specifics. Since then, it appears that Airbus has gone back to the drawing board and come up with a proposal that appears to be gaining more traction. One of the keys to offering the latest avatar of the A350 is the powerplant. According to the FI article from a couple of weeks ago, to power the -800 and -900 series the GE and RR offering would need to be in the "63,000 - 75,000lb" thrust range. Although it may be possible to scale the GEnx and Trent offering to this level for the bleed-air versions of these powerplants, it is possible that more time may be needed from their perspective as well for a better definition. The same article also talks about a -1000 growth version of the A350 as well which would "require engines with a thrust above 75,000lb". If this were true as well, the additional time could also be to better define the A350-1000 with an appropriate powerplant choice and allow Airbus to market a trifecta of A350 variants similar to the 787-3, -8 and -9. Just my  twocents .

-N60659
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flyAUA
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
Airbus is not going to win many A358 versus 787 battles.

Maybe not many but definately a fair bunch! It can do exactly what the 787 can with similar fuel burn, capacity, range, and on top of all that, commonality with the rest of the fleet (if it is an airbus customer).
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NYC777
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 47):
commonality with the rest of the fleet (if it is an airbus customer).

Commonality it seems is not trully going to be a factor given that AC and KE, notable A330 operators did not buy into that arguement when the A30 was being pitched. Now you're going to say that the A350 now is vastly different from the A350 that was marketed to AC and KE...true but Airbus was marketing the commonality trait then and this has not changed in the "new and improved" A350.

Bottome line is airlines are going to look at the bottom line that both airplanes can give and not at the commonality with existing fleet.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
airfrnt
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RE: A350 Will Not Be Launched At Paris

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 47):
Maybe not many but definately a fair bunch! It can do exactly what the 787 can with similar fuel burn, capacity, range, and on top of all that, commonality with the rest of the fleet (if it is an airbus customer).

That remains to be seen. Airbus unlike Boeing has very little creditability in terms of launch numbers. The A380 may reverse that trend, but I would not hold my breath. Also, given the sheer amount of new technology Boeing is investing in the 787, the chance that Airbus will match that with a simple dervitive of the A350 not so good.