LAXintl
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Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:30 pm

The Australian Federal Cabinet is due to decide next Tuesday if Singapore Airlines will be granted rights to enter the Australia-US market breaking up the duopoly currently enjoyed by Qantas and United.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/...oute/2005/06/08/1118123898035.html

[Edited 2005-06-09 07:39:14]
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TG992
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:49 pm

Mr Gregg said the report failed to take into consideration the large numbers of passengers who flew between the US and Australia each year through stopovers such as Auckland and Tokyo.


Very important point - we (NZ) carry a LARGE amount of Australia-US traffic.
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777ER
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:00 pm

Hope SQ is allowed on the route. QF would cry thou that its unfair having SQ on the route. More airlines means more competition means lower airfares and means more passengers on the route.
 
aerohottie
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:18 pm

Since when has SQ been a cost leader, and been interested in lower fares as opposed to trying their best to lift yields?
SQ just want a piece of a very tasty pie... they have no interest in changing the flavour of it at all.
What?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 3):
Since when has SQ been a cost leader, and been interested in lower fares as opposed to trying their best to lift yields?

Isn't lowering higher priced fares on this route just what this sentence of the report meant?

"Singapore Airlines said it would make a heavy dent on business fares if it entered the Los Angeles route."

It appears they've already made their intentions clear, unless I'm reading it incorrectly.
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TBCITDG
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:36 pm

Speaking of duopoly, why does the Australian government permit the duopoly between SAA and QF between Australia and South Africa? Both these carriers can pretty much charge whatever they want between the tow countries.
Wouldn't it be nice if the government granted SQ "some" rights between OZ and the US so long as they break the other duopoly taking place?
 
zvezda
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:41 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 5):
Speaking of duopoly, why does the Australian government permit the duopoly between SAA and QF between Australia and South Africa? Both these carriers can pretty much charge whatever they want between the tow countries.
Wouldn't it be nice if the government granted SQ "some" rights between OZ and the US so long as they break the other duopoly taking place?

What would really be nice is if all countries would allow all airlines to operate everywhere without any barriers. Then we would all enjoy great service and low fares everywhere.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:52 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Then we would all enjoy great service and low fares everywhere.

With the American experiment with deregulation beginning in 1978, and the EU following suit some 20 years later, I think we've seen exactly the opposite. Full deregulation leads to common denominator service levels dictated by price competition.

[Edited 2005-06-09 08:53:41]
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aerohottie
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:57 pm

Regardless of what SQ have stated publically. I have no doubt they have no intention of lowering fares, other than a nice introductory fare.
SQ are interested in having a slice of the traffic, not interested in being the market leader on this route.
What?
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 8):
Regardless of what SQ have stated publically. I have no doubt they have no intention of lowering fares, other than a nice introductory fare.
SQ are interested in having a slice of the traffic, not interested in being the market leader on this route.

What is wrong with that. Look at the disparity of service on the route now. UA and QF are not equal, but both charge the same fares. I venture to say if SQ is allowed on the route, both them and QF would do just fine. However, I think UA would be the one left holding the bag. Their service, in all classes, can not compete with either SQ or QF. So, who wins? The consumer.
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Sydscott
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:34 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 5):
Wouldn't it be nice if the government granted SQ "some" rights between OZ and the US so long as they break the other duopoly taking place?

SQ hasn't asked from them. Any foray into Australia will be on the densest International routes where Qantas has already significantly developed the market and SQ can piggy back onto that success.

Quoting TG992 (Reply 1):
Mr Gregg said the report failed to take into consideration the large numbers of passengers who flew between the US and Australia each year through stopovers such as Auckland and Tokyo.

The report doesn't even take into consideration passengers flying from Brisbane and Melbourne. Only from Sydney. What the government should do is say to SQ if you want into Sydney you need to help develop traffic out of Melbourne or Brisbane first. Lets make them do some dirty work on the market development side before we hand them a plum route on a platter.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Full deregulation leads to common denominator service levels dictated by price competition.

SQ wont be engaging in any sort of major price war on the US runs and anyone who thinks they will are delusional. QF makes nice big fat profits off of this route and SQ wants a slice of that profit pie. Besides even if we do grant SQ 1 daily service to Sydney from LAX, QF will still dominate the direct route with 3 dailies plus service to Melbourne, Brisbane and Auckland. So the market may grow slightly but it will be QF and United with their unlimited frequencies that will be there to take advantage of it. If the market starts growing faster then that's great, it means the daily SQ 747 can be an A380 and all the QF services can be A380.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
However, I think UA would be the one left holding the bag.

Not really. UAL can still draw from its hub in San Francisco and will still be the only airline offering direct service from there. So that is a point of differentiation for them. If UAL does find themselves losing out on SYD-LAX, (which I dont think they will), then what they should do is re-introduce the direct MEL service. Thus they fly SFO-SYD and LAX-MEL and have the direct service to the two largest Australian cities. They'll need a 744ER to do the MEL run though which is a problem in their current state.

Of course the unknown factor in all of this is how much pressure Chris Corrigan and Virgin Blue can bring to bear on the government to delay SQ's access and give them the chance to formulate a strategy to fly Trans-Pac. That would potentially by more damaging to Qantas than SQ would be.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:37 pm

So - if it is granted - is there a quid pro quo?

Does Qantas get some goodie in return?

cheers

mariner
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AeroWesty
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 10):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):Full deregulation leads to common denominator service levels dictated by price competition.

SQ wont be engaging in any sort of major price war on the US runs and anyone who thinks they will are delusional.

I'm not quite sure why you selected that sentence to go on about justifying SQ not starting a price war, since it was in response to the effects of global deregulation, not a single flight on a popular run.
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LAXintl
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Does Qantas get some goodie in return?

Qantas for years have enjoyed the very liberal air transport policies of Singapore. Qantas has been able to operate several of its Kangaroo services via Singapore with full traffic rights on all sectors. In addition Qantas has been able to operate mini hub via Singapore were several Qantas aircraft will arrive at about the same time and transfer passengers between them for the onward journey.
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aerohottie
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:53 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
What is wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with that... I was merely pointing out that making a point of "lower fares" and "increasing competition" is just a smoke screen. The true story is as stated serveral times now by myself and others that SQ just a slice of a very profitable pie. All the propaganda spewed by the politicians and SQ about increasing competition, developing the market etc etc is just crap.
What?
 
aerohottie
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:55 pm

I think NZ should re-enter this route with the new long-haul product...they would kick QF's arse.

(Added - product and service wise I mean, not frequencies blah blah blah, you know what I mean).

[Edited 2005-06-09 10:56:37]
What?
 
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:02 pm

I think NZ should re-enter this route with the new long-haul product...they would kick QF's arse. NZ will kick QFs arse on the AKL-LAX route anyway
 
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mariner
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:46 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
Qantas for years have enjoyed the very liberal air transport policies of Singapore. Qantas has been able to operate several of its Kangaroo services via Singapore with full traffic rights on all sectors.

Yes, I thought that. But I was puzzled by a line I read:

http://www.etravelblackboard.com/index.asp?id=38874&nav=2

"Flying to the United States is a major revenue earner for Qantas, which has said letting in Singapore Air would be unfair as it has no reciprocal access to routes out of Singapore."

So I wonder what Qantas would like - what they would consider as "reciprocal access".

cheers

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zeekiel
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:48 pm

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 14):
The true story is as stated serveral times now by myself and others that SQ just a slice of a very profitable pie.

The question is if SQ enters the market hypothetically, how would their entrance alter the price of the SYD-LAX airfares. No one really knows and it might end up with slight drops in the price, but there would be enough of a markup over cost (or however they calculate it) to still be really lucrative.

I have no issue with them operating services through SYD. QF operates to SIN from MEL, SYD, PER onwards to LHR and FRA.

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 15):
I think NZ should re-enter this route with the new long-haul product...they would kick QF's arse.

Yes. It would be nice, especially the premium economy service in its own right. It would be the only airline. Not to mention the AVOD with all this new technology I have been hearing about on the Air New Zealand website. There's been plenty of mail correspondence from Air New Zealand about its AVOD and Business Premier service. Fancy mail as well.

Cheers

Zeekiel
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Gemuser
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
Qantas for years have enjoyed the very liberal air transport policies of Singapore. Qantas has been able to operate several of its Kangaroo services via Singapore with full traffic rights on all sectors.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17)
Flying to the United States is a major revenue earner for Qantas, which has said letting in Singapore Air would be unfair as it has no reciprocal access to routes out of Singapore."

So I wonder what Qantas would like - what they would consider as "reciprocal access".

Currently SQ's rights from Australia and QF's from SIN are about equal. QF 5th freedom rights from SIN are balanced by SQ 6th freedom rights from Oz. I think its a reasonable to ask what's in it for Oz (NOT QF) in letting SQ access transpac routes? (In bilateral treaty terms)

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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:05 pm

Heard that CX is interested in doing LAX-SYD as well...

Wonder if NZ will resume LAX-SYD service...
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:10 pm

No offence to my kiwi counterparts, but in all seriousness, NZ kick QF's ass??
Qf is slowly upgrading all it's aircraft to AVOD, that and the fact that QF still offers a first class product which are viable (maybe not profitable) on the SYD-LAX sectors!
I respect the fact that you admire NZ so much, but it would loose out big time if it where to compete head to head with SQ and QF. I mean, the SQ product speaks for itself and the AA hub in LAX also!
 
zeekiel
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:16 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 21):
NZ kick QF's ass??

No no, just it would be nice to see their product operate on the route. Nothing to do with superiority. Are you making any gestures towards superiority and QF?

No just kidding .

I still have a soft spot for QF and will be travelling at the end of the year on QF to LHR from MEL and guess what TBCITDG, on First Class. Yay!!!

I just have the gripe with Air New Zealand having absolutely no Business Premier or Business Clasas seats on FF points or Airpoints Dollars to LHR at the end of the year. Discount ones that is. Unlike QF.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-06-09 13:17:07]
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aerokiwi
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:23 pm

Aerowesty: Funny because the growth you have seen in global commercial aviation is a direct result of liberalisation within and between countries. the more the better for consumers, who can then chose between higher prices for greater service quality, or lower fares with a corresponding lowering of services. So many on this site just don't seem to understand that the colourful world of aviation we have today would be far smaller and far more dull without deregulation.

Anyway, I say let SQ have what it wants. QF enjoys a Singapore hub so why not a reciprocal situation? It'a pretty hard to argue against that isn't it?

And the more capacity there is in the market the more pressure there is on prices to fall, unless of course demand is sufficient enough. So SQ would not be "eveloping new markets", just giving the consumer more choice. Where is the harm in that except denting the too-long protected Qantas?
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:24 pm

Maybe I'll see you on board Zee??
Make sure you drink the cabin dry of Dom Perignon in first!!!!!
 
zeekiel
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 24):
Maybe I'll see you on board Zee??
Make sure you drink the cabin dry of Dom Perignon in first!!!!!

That would be nice mate. Have a chat and have some champers.

Drinking the cabin dry. No probs there. I was more concerned about the cabin air drinking me dry  Smile.

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:19 pm

Interesting to note that Singapore has also allowed a partly-QF owner JetStar Asia to base itself out of SIN as well.
 
CXoneworld
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 26):
Interesting to note that Singapore has also allowed a partly-QF owner JetStar Asia to base itself out of SIN as well.

What's more interesting to note, the partly-QF owned Jetstar Asia has been denied access to crucial markets such as Indonesia and China, despite Singapore's apparent indifference to fight the case on the LCC's behalf... That's so much for the claim of the "liberal" Singaporean sky while a legitimate carrier invested by Australian Qantas has been prejudiced.

In the end could 3K cherry-pick to fly SIN-KUL or SIN-PVG?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 23):
So many on this site just don't seem to understand that the colourful world of aviation we have today would be far smaller and far more dull without deregulation.

And I agree. But I don't agree that it brings "better service with lower fares" over the long haul which is the statement my comment responded to.
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airtropolis
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting CXoneWorld (Reply 27):
"What's more interesting to note, the partly-QF owned Jetstar Asia has been denied access to crucial markets such as Indonesia and China, despite Singapore's apparent indifference to fight the case on the LCC's behalf... That's so much for the claim of the "liberal" Singaporean sky while a legitimate carrier invested by Australian Qantas has been prejudiced."

Given that the Singapore government has a 19% stake in Jetstar Asia, through Temasek holdings, I don't think the above argument really holds weight, unless I see some actual facts otherwise.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting CXoneWorld (Reply 27):
partly-QF owned Jetstar Asia has been denied access to crucial markets such as Indonesia and China,

I believe especially in the case of China, the bilateral does not allow for more service, nor the designation of additional airlines between the countries. This is certainly not a Singapore caused restriction, as the country prefers to have open skies bilaterals with all nations.
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CXoneworld
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting Airtropolis (Reply 29):
Given that the Singapore government has a 19% stake in Jetstar Asia, through Temasek holdings, I don't think the above argument really holds weight, unless I see some actual facts otherwise.

I don't see how your mentioning of Temasek's modest stake in Jetstar Asia has undermined the above line of argument. In all that matters, Jetstar's access out of Singapore has been severely limited, a fact that you have not refuted. And I wish your local insight could shed more light on the discussion whether 3k has ever be allowed to cherry pick KUL or JKT.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
I believe especially in the case of China, the bilateral does not allow for more service, nor the designation of additional airlines between the countries. This is certainly not a Singapore caused restriction, as the country prefers to have open skies bilaterals with all nations.

Bizarre as it is, cuz another non-Qantas owned Singaporean LCC, Valuair has faced no issue at all venturing into China -- and two new destinations since last two months!
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LAXintl
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting CXoneWorld (Reply 31):
Bizarre as it is, cuz another non-Qantas owned Singaporean LCC, Valuair has faced no issue at all venturing into China -- and two new destinations since last two months!

I do not have a copy of the China/Singapore bilateral, however if it has any similarity with some of the other China bilaterals there are specific limits on frequencies, cities, and number of carriers. Could very well be Valuair had their applications in before Jetstar.

However speaking of China and Singapore, Qantas was in the last year also awarded cargo traffic rights to operate SYD-SIN-PVG-USA/Europe by both the Chinese and Singaporean authorities. QF has allready started to make use of these rights several times per week via its leased in 747 freighters from Atlas Air and Polar Air.
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airtropolis
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:02 am

Re: CXoneWorld's reply 31:
All I have to say is that with the Singapore government having a stake in JetStar Asia, it has no interest in hindering the airline's access to routes out of Singapore. Until otherwise indicated, all other comments about any favoritism on the part of the CAAS are simply baseless insinuations.

JetStar Asia's problems with rights can be attributed to many reasons, the major bit being just plain timing and luck. The Indonesian government for example, simply decided that the threat of LCCs was simply too much for its own carriers especially Garuda (case in point being that the Indonesians, recently increased the air-rights of Singaporean "full-service" carriers), as for the Chinese government and rights to China, the rumour is that it was upset that JetStar Asia decided to fly to Taipei first. Routes to Malaysia are limited by very restrictive bilaterals between Singapore and Malaysia, with SIA and Silkair having taken up almost all slots.
 
aviasian
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:40 pm

Aerohottie: SQ's services have been price - competitive in many of the markets it serve, and the consumer gains from such competition. Even where SQ charges similar fares to its competitors, consumers enjoy far superior services and amenities!

Of course SQ wants a piece of the pie . . . did you think they are keen to serve the SYD-LAX run as a charity? Did you realise that QF has had the SIN-Europe pie since the 1930s?

Objectively, SQ's services (at once daily) is not going to dent Qantas in the manner in which the airline's management has been crying about. It will only offer yet another alternative, perhaps slightly lower fares than Qantas, another level of service (consumers decide if this is better service than Qantas or worse) . . . and SQ has never been shy about promoting and growing the market for a route.

I recall when SQ first began operating to SFO in April 1979, airlines opposing its service include cargo airlines and passenger carriers. They said that the route could not sustain even Pan Am's daily B747SP service. Look at the route today, and look at how many airlines offer SIN-USA service via their home bases such as MH, JL, CI, BR, CX, TG, KE, OZ, NH etc. SQ has an impeccable record of growing the pie.

All said, my gut feeling is SIA will not be granted immediate authority for this route and Australia will still ask for more time - and in the meantime, Qantas will continue to enjoy dipping its kangaroo paws into the 70 year old pie and savouring every morsel of its sweetness. And perhaps Virgin Blue in whatever form or guise will build up its case, be granted the authority to operate on the SYD-LAX route and then SIA will be told that there is already competition and sufficient capacity on the route.

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laca773
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:04 pm

I also thought VS wanted a part of this as well?
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Gemuser
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:36 pm

Quote=Aviasian,reply=34
Aerohottie: SQ's services have been price - competitive in many of the markets it serve, and the consumer gains from such competition. Even where SQ charges similar fares to its competitors, consumers enjoy far superior services and amenities!

What markets from Oz? In over 10 years of regularly booking OZ-Europe tickets SQ has NEVER been even remotely cost competive, in Y or J! The only execption to this has been a ticket issued by a European carrier that used SQ as a connector.

Quote=Aviasian,reply=34
Of course SQ wants a piece of the pie . . . did you think they are keen to serve the SYD-LAX run as a charity?

Why should we give it to them???

Quote=Aviasian,reply=34
Did you realise that QF has had the SIN-Europe pie since the 1930s?

And SQ and MSA before them has had a share of the Oz-Europe pie in return!

Quote=Aviasian,reply=34
Objectively, SQ's services (at once daily) is not going to dent Qantas in the manner in which the airline's management has been crying about. It will only offer yet another alternative, perhaps slightly lower fares than Qantas, another level of service (consumers decide if this is better service than Qantas or worse) . . . and SQ has never been shy about promoting and growing the market for a route.

Still I ask, Whats in it for OZ???


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aerorobnz
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 16):
NZ will kick QFs arse on the AKL-LAX route anyway

If the loads over the last month are anything to go by NZ kicks QFs ass already, even with a dated product. QF does well, but NZ does better still. QF does have the hot young blond chick pilots however.....

I would be very surprised to see SQ's proposal accepted.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Avalon
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
This is certainly not a Singapore caused restriction, as the country prefers to have open skies bilaterals with all nations.



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 19):
So I wonder what Qantas would like - what they would consider as "reciprocal access".

Currently SQ's rights from Australia and QF's from SIN are about equal



Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
So I wonder what Qantas would like - what they would consider as "reciprocal access".



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
Qantas for years have enjoyed the very liberal air transport policies of Singapore.

Qantas argues that it does not currently enjoy reciprocal access from Singapore. An example is that QF recently discontinued its flights to Paris (via SIN) because the Singaporean Govt would not allow QF to operate a daily service: the Singaporean Govt restricted QF to flights on only 3 or so days a week, which QF claimed was insufficient for them to make the route pay.
 
avek00
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:02 pm

Thankfully, I believe that the Aussies have learned some lessons from EK's introduction into the OZ-NZ market and will not allow SQ onto SYD-LAX.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting Avalon (Reply 38):
Qantas argues that it does not currently enjoy reciprocal access from Singapore. An example is that QF recently discontinued its flights to Paris (via SIN) because the Singaporean Govt would not allow QF to operate a daily service: the Singaporean Govt restricted QF to flights on only 3 or so days a week, which QF claimed was insufficient for them to make the route pay.

I don't think that is quite the story. QF has unlimited traffic rights out of Singapore. My understanding is the French gov't was the roadblock. In fact, lack of open skies agreements with other gov'ts has hindered QF's ability to really utilize the open skies agreement it has with Singapore.

In addition, the traffic carried on the CDG route was not living up to QF's expectations. The decision to withdraw was more a commercial decision than anything else.
Fly fast, live slow
 
zvezda
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:05 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 36):

Why should we give it to them???

OZ should grant SQ full onward rights because it would directly benefit Australian consumers and the Australian tourism industry.
 
Avalon
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 40):
I don't think that is quite the story. QF has unlimited traffic rights out of Singapore. My understanding is the French gov't was the roadblock.

I would disagree and stand by my assertion above, on the basis that it was reported consistently in the Australian press that the Australian minister of transport and a former deputy PM of Australia, (Tim Fischer) were taking up this particular point with the Singapore Govt on behalf of Qantas.

Therefore, if Qantas does have unlimited rights out of SIN - such as to Paris, I would have expected this to have come out in the press here by now - the Singaporean Govt's views are often reported here, and often critical views at that.

I may be wrong on this; but after all the reporting here, I would need to see a source.

The French Govt could well have been a roadblock - but if it had been, it would have been a roadblock in addition to the SIN Govt roadblock.

Yes, Qantas may have been using the whole matter as an excuse - it may have been the case that even if they had as many flights as they wanted, the route may have been unviable. But this is speculation.
 
airbazar
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 8):
Regardless of what SQ have stated publically. I have no doubt they have no intention of lowering fares, other than a nice introductory fare.
SQ are interested in having a slice of the traffic, not interested in being the market leader on this route.

Well, for what it's worth, I can tell you for a fact that in the JFK-FRA route SQ consistently has one of the lower fares. So, it's been known to happen.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting Avalon (Reply 42):
I would disagree and stand by my assertion above, on the basis that it was reported consistently in the Australian press that the Australian minister of transport and a former deputy PM of Australia, (Tim Fischer) were taking up this particular point with the Singapore Govt on behalf of Qantas.

Please see the following link. The quote is right from the horse's mouth. The issue is between the French and Australian govt, not Singapore.
www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/pub.../details?ArticleID=2004/jun04/3101

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 43):
Well, for what it's worth, I can tell you for a fact that in the JFK-FRA route SQ consistently has one of the lower fares. So, it's been known to happen.

The pricing on the JFK-FRA route is a completely different issue. If you look at other non-european airlines that provide beyond service to the US you will notice they are all much lower than the US or European airlines. Basically, if the flight were not done the aircraft would sit in FRA for the entire day and then return to SIN in the evening. This tag on service enables some revenue to be generated. Nothing more. If you look at SQ's J and F class fares you will find them the same as any other carrier in the market.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Avalon
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:54 pm

OK, thanks for the link.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 19):
Currently SQ's rights from Australia and QF's from SIN are about equal. QF 5th freedom rights from SIN are balanced by SQ 6th freedom rights from Oz. I think its a reasonable to ask what's in it for Oz (NOT QF) in letting SQ access transpac routes? (In bilateral treaty terms)

I don't see anyone addressing this question, so I'll attempt to tackle it. You are not incorrect in making this assertion. However, while 5th freedom rights are often negotiated and enforced, 6th freedoms are hardly ever negotiated and even then enforcement is difficult at best. Therefore, speaking strictly from the standpoint of theoretically negotiable rights, SQ does have every reason to ask for "reciprocal" rights out of Oz. It is geography that has allowed SQ to make use of these unofficial 6th freedoms, and it is also geography that makes QF unable to do the same.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:50 am

In regards to AirNZ 'Kicking Arse" on the LAX runs, i would have you think again.

Sources say that LAX is one of NZ's most unprofitable routes flown (Not saying they dont make profits) in regards to other routes flown on their international sectors.
To go on "pax loads" is just plane stupid.


In regards to the First class champagne on offer- Dom Perignon, it is no longer being served until furthur notice. The stocks Qantas offer are currently too low that they need to source the champagne from France, thus being too expensive until they have gathered enough stock down here in OZ to have it on offer again.

Cheers
Air New Zealand
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 47):
Sources say that LAX is one of NZ's most unprofitable routes flown

which sources would those be exactly? Sure the money is more in cargo than pax, but cargo is good and the pax loads are doing well, so that ices the cake so to speak. NZ1-2 is the flagship route - the route is what the Kangaroo SYD-LHR route is to QF. Which other routes make as much cash for NZ as LAX-LHR & SFO? Any of the Asian 763/ or the Tasman/Pacific 320 flights??? I highly doubt it.

Without the LAX route NZ would be in trouble, and NZ5-6 is certainly not the poor relation to NZ1-2 on the route. If it was unprofitable, there would not be 17 flights weekly there (NZ2,NZ6,NZ22-RAR-PPT-LAX). Nor would they be pouring cash into getting the new cabin spec on those routes first...

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 47):
To go on "pax loads" is just plane stupid.

Yes, I agree. My assertions were based on more than that.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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NZ1
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RE: Australia To Decide On SQ LAX-SYD Next Week

Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 47):
Sources say that LAX is one of NZ's most unprofitable routes flown (Not saying they dont make profits) in regards to other routes flown on their international sectors.
To go on "pax loads" is just plane stupid.

This is true. In fact the flight to LHR from LAX and return has lost money for a while now.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 48):
Without the LAX route NZ would be in trouble

I doubt it my friend. We have to fly there and LHR just to keep the landing rights active. You could argue whats the point? Well it is better to fly an aircraft to LHR and breakeven, maybe lose money on the odd occasion, than to sit on the tarmac at AKL losing even more. I was looking at the figures just last week, so yes, it is true.

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