flyinTLow
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Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:31 pm

hey everyone!

Have a question about the days when PA was still around with their hub in FRA. Unfortunately I am just a little too young to remember anything about that.

When PA had their hub in FRA, did the fly out of one terminal all the time. From what I understand, their operations were quite large, so did they for example get the entire terminal C for themselves or maybe one of the "B-heads" in Terminal B?


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What kind of aircraft did PA have stationed in FRA, and how many? Did they also have long-haul aircraft stationed, or did they just rotate throughout the PA network?

Thanks for any information anyone can provide!

Cheers,

- T-Low

[Edited 2005-06-09 12:42:53]
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MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:34 pm

As I remember they were scattered all over B with the Berlin shuttle flights always leaving from close in gates right after security near the "bus station" gates.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
rootsair
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:19 am

What were the destinations served by the FRA Pan am hub ?
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PanHAM
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:33 am

The operation was from the B part of Terminal one, including the check-in area. The Internal German fleet was stationed in Berlin, first at THF and later at TXL. That gave PanAm even more freedom since, before the reunification of Germany, the US and allies were the sovereign powers in Berlin. Hence, actually Berlin was the European hub and PA had flights from there to HAM/HAJ/FRA/NUE/STR/MUC, the other destinations served by BE/AF. They also had flights to ZRH and LHR, another PA hub in Europe which had also direct flights to HAM and DUS.

From the FRA hub the flights went to LHR (at least twice daily 727s connecting with 747 under the same flight (including the tragic 101), JFK,MIA,IST,BOM, and that list is not complete. I am not sure if LAX and SFO had non-stop flights or just through flights.

By any standards, the PanAm operation in Germany at the time was huge and LH took a while to overtake them. They had many German employess and a good number ofn Americans stayed here after retirement. The 727s had Germany names like "Clipper Flotte Motte" or "Clipper Langer Lulatsch" which are typical Berlin lingo.

Planes operated, well, I have seen the DC6's until the late 60s, after that they had 727-190, 727-200, 737-100 and A300 / A310 on the European network. Intercont services saw the Dc8, 707 and 747-100/200s as well as the SP.

Well, sweet nostalgia. I loved PanAm as an airline I flew many times and did business with as a freight forwarder. These times are gone and they don't come back, the business is different today, much different.
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MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
(at least twice daily 727s connecting with 747 under the same flight (including the tragic 101)

That was a great post so I'm not trying to slam you here. However it was the tragic PA103. I remember this vividly as I drove two friends from Bremen to the Hamburg Airport. They both went HAM-LHR on Pan Am, one connected to SFO the other to JFK (PA103). They were both fellow GIs lucky enough to get leave at Christmas. Many of us requested to attend the funeral on Long Island at our own expense. We were denied permission because the death was not "in the line of duty".
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
quickmover
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:13 am

From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?
 
kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:16 am

Nonstop or one stop PA destinations from Frankfurt:

July 7, 1981 timtetable:

Ankara
Bahrain
Bangkok
Belgrade
Berlin
Bombay
Bucharest
Delhi
Dubai
Istanbul
Karachi
London
Miami
Munich
New York
San Fransisco
Tampa
Warsaw

May 24, 1990 Timetable

Ankara
Athens
Belgrade
Berlin
Bombay
Budapest
Bucharest
Delhi
Dubrovnik
Istanbul
Karachi
Krakow
London
Los Angeles
Miami
Moscow
Nairobi
New York
Nurmeburg
Prague
Riyadh
San Fransisco
Warsaw
Washington
 
kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 5):
From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?

Miami and New York flights were 747s. Washington nonstop was a 747 from 1987 on. The Tampa nonstop was operated with a former National DC10. (after all it was an inherited National route)
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 5):
From FRA, where did they fly to in the USA with those 747s?

JFK, MIA and IAD I believe. I don't believe LAX and SFO were in the mix. I can vouch for JFK for sure, since when I left Germany after my two year tour I boarded a PanAm 747 bound for JFK on June 1, 1980. Remember it well, the flight was about 3 hours late leaving FRA, which made me miss my connection at JFK for a TW flight to STL. Ended up taking a limo to LGA and caught the last flight out to STL..

25 years goes by very quickly..
 
MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:37 am

In the late eighties LAX and SFO were being done from FRA with the then ancient 747s. I think both ended when Gulf War started. Between the downturn in trans-Atlantic traffic and Pan Am's massive CRAF obligations they could no longer could sustain the routes.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
777D
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:38 am

Just imagine if Pan Am still existed today. They would be a very powerful carrier. LHR and FRA as hubs, flying to all sorts of destinations around the globe. Boeings flying everywhere. Sadly that did not happen. Perhaps they would have ruled the skies from various points from the USA and from their foreign hubs. This is a "what if" situation. TWA also had a sizeable operation until they hit hard times.
 
BCAL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting 777D (Reply 10):
Just imagine if Pan Am still existed today. They would be a very powerful carrier. LHR and FRA as hubs

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.

Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US.

FYI many UK charter airlines had aircraft based in Berlin to fly Berliners to tourist hotspost, as West German carriers were at the time not allowed to operate any flights from Berlin's airports.
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flyingzacko
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:53 am

PanHAM:

You really did your homework. Your knowledge is very impressive!

Quoting 777D (Reply 10):
TWA also had a sizeable operation until they hit hard times.

PA and TW both with pretty sizable foreign operations going bankrupt. You just cannot miss the similarity. Really sad, but that's the industry we work in!
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MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR

Sorry dude but these route authorities still belong to UA. They transferred the LHR slots to Lufthansa. However the route authorities still exist under the Bermuda II agreement. As for the FRA hub, Delta still holds these (granted cold war relic) beyond Germany authorities. The domestic German operation was officially sold to Lufthansa thus killing these authorities.
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A999
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:38 am

Don`t forget the RTW flights PA1/2 which also went daily through FRA.
 
flyinTLow
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US

Ok, then a different question right there:

Where did Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement? What rights did those airlines have to LHR?

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.

Very true. But on the other side. PA would prolly still consider a hub to go to various destinations in Africa and India. So they would have prolly had to make up their mind what hub to choose. And then the question of alliances would have played a major role in that decision as well?! It would be interesting to say the least if PA would still be around today...
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MD95
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:58 am

Pan Am not only had a hub in FRA but also from LHR they had a bunch of flights. I remember taking a 727 to Munich via Amsterdam.
dario
 
MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Where did Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement? What rights did those airlines have to LHR?

I know TWA had some beyond LHR authorities, but not much. I know they had an LHR/LGW-FRA that DL picked up on an abandonment (LGW only). As for PA(now UA) the beyond LHR authorities are numerous and still in effect. The LHR slots on the other hand are pretty hard to get a hold of.
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kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Eastern come into the Bermuda II agreement

You are confusing EA with another Miami based carrier National. Had the Eastern/National merger been approved I assume EA would have gained National's LHR rights under Bermuda II. Instead, the CAB rejected the merger and allowed PA to buy NA thus limiting Heathorw to only two US carriers under Bermuda II.
 
kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 15):
Very true. But on the other side. PA would prolly still consider a hub to go to various destinations in Africa and India. So they would have prolly had to make up their mind what hub to choose. And then the question of alliances would have played a major role in that decision as well?! It would be interesting to say the least if PA would still be around today...

If PA were still around today these flights would operate from Frankfurt, unless PA were involved in Global alliance with someone else. Sky Team would be logical because Pan Am's operation at Paris was never very large, as oppossed to TWA who had the biulk of Paris-USA traffic. On the other hand TWA was not very strong at Frankfurt, so perhaps they would have been in the Star Alliance to enhance that traffic.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Somehow I cannot see PanAm being allowed to operate a hub from LHR. True, they might have had the slots but the UK/US agreement would probably not have allowed a US carrier to have a hub at LHR unless a British carrier could have similar rights in the US.

Several PA flights to/from LHR had restriction on the carrying of local traffic. Flights to/from Oslo, Stockholm, Brussells, Amsterdam and Athens were not permitted to carry anything but connecting traffic. Pan Am was not allowed to sell tickets from LHR to Indian or Mideast destinations via Frankfurt either until sometime in the mid to late 1980s.

[Edited 2005-06-09 22:17:41]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 4):

That was a great post so I'm not trying to slam you here. However it was the tragic PA103. I remember this vividly as I drove two friends from Bremen to the Hamburg Airport. They both went HAM-LHR on Pan Am, one connected to SFO the other to JFK (PA103). They were both fellow GIs lucky enough to get leave at Christmas. Many of us requested to attend the funeral on Long Island at our own expense. We were denied permission because the death was not "in the line of duty".



You are right, it was flight 103. And it was the 727-100 of cource, the 190 was a typing error.

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 12):
PanHAM:

You really did your homework. Your knowledge is very impressive!

That was actually a quick one just by memory, that's why the destinations are incomplete, I would have to dig deep to get the full board, but someone else did it already.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):

Whilst it would be great if PanAm existed today, in the events that happened it is highly unlikely that they would still have hubs at LHR and FRA. I think it has previously been pointed out that the FRA hub only existed as the post WW2 treaty did not allow a German carrier to fly on some domestic routes, so this is where PanAm came in at FRA, along with BEA and AF. When LH was permitted to operate German domestic routes without restrictions previously imposed, presumably the PanAm operation at FRA would have had to shut down or be scaled down.
.

To answer that question - look at NRT and UA + NW + FX operating with full traffic rights beyond NRT (and KIX/NGO) to other Asian destinations. That status quo would remain until today and the US certianly would not have renegotiated these "grandfather" rights. LH might enjoy some fifth freedom rights beyond the USA, which the actually did in the 70s from JFK with alternating stops MBJ/KIN/BOG/UIO/GYE/LIM/SCL served by 707s and later DC10s. They might still have these rights but don't use them.

LHR is another story with Bermuda 2, the US wants oipen skies but the Brits block that because of Heathrow access.
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flyingzacko
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 17):
I know TWA had some beyond LHR authorities, but not much. I know they had an LHR/LGW-FRA that DL picked up on an abandonment (LGW only). As for PA(now UA) the beyond LHR authorities are numerous and still in effect. The LHR slots on the other hand are pretty hard to get a hold of.

So let me get this straight:

the original Bermuda II was that PA, AA, and TW had rights into LHR? For other flights, PA used LGW, which DL later picked up, while PA's LHR rights were bought up by UA?
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MarkATL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:13 am

PAs LHR authority was assumed by UA and TWs LHR authority was assumed by AA. Bermuda II never allowed more than two US and two UK carriers into LHR. Any of the remaining PA or TW London authorities regardless of weather they were a LHR eligible gateway had to be flown into LGW after they transferred their LHR rights to the successor (PA to UA & TW to AA).
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kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:18 am

UA did not even fly to Europe in `77. NA was the third US airline to serve LHR.
 
N1120A
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
I am not sure if LAX and SFO had non-stop flights or just through flights.

Well, having flown the LAX flight, I can assure you it was non-stop

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
737-100

-200. PA never had the -100

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 21):
the original Bermuda II was that PA, AA, and TW had rights into LHR?

PA, NA and TW. AA did not get LHR rights until TW sold their rights to them
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kkfla737
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 21):
PA used LGW, which DL later picked up, while PA's LHR rights were bought up by UA?

Pan Am flew to LGW from Houston between 1980 and 1983. PA's other flights to London all were from Heathrow as designated by Bermuda II : New York, Washington, Miami, Detroit, Seattle, San Fransisco, Los Angeles.

After the UA sale, PA flew from Gatwick to Miami and Detroit which were not part of the UA sale. (Though Stephen Wolfe very badly wanted PAs MIA-LHR route, PA tried to hold Miami-London, since they needed that route to feed traffic to Latin America.)
 
hawk44
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 4):
I remember this vividly as I drove two friends from Bremen to the Hamburg Airport. They both went HAM-LHR on Pan Am, one connected to SFO the other to JFK (PA103). They were both fellow GIs lucky enough to get leave at Christmas. Many of us requested to attend the funeral on Long Island at our own expense. We were denied permission because the death was not "in the line of duty".

MarkATL, just wondering are you talking about the two DSS agents that were on PA 103?

Hawk44
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LAXintl
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:00 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Well, having flown the LAX flight, I can assure you it was non-stop

Indeed PA150/PA151 remember it well. Flew them several times myself. Was even a WorldPass platinum member those days!
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wingedarrow
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:45 pm

And what about the presence of PA in FCO? As FlyinTLow I'm too young to rember, but I know they had a lot of traffic coming and going to/from Rome...
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flyinTLow
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:02 pm

It's really impressive to see the gigantic operation of PA around the world. 7 destinations from LHR! That has to be impressive. What did TW and NA serve from LHR? And I thought TW kinda had a hub in Paris back then. What flights did they have there? And did NA have a hub in Europe?

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 22):
Bermuda II never allowed more than two US and two UK carriers into LHR.

So was NA now allowed to fly into LHR or not? Cause that would make three airlines?!
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PanHAM
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 29):
It's really impressive to see the gigantic operation of PA around the world. 7 destinations from LHR! That has to be impressive. What did TW and NA serve from LHR? And I thought TW kinda had a hub in Paris back then. What flights did they have there? And did NA have a hub in Europe?

PA and TW mostly duplicated their LHR ops over the times, they both had LHR/JFK, connected from FRA through LHR with the exception that TW operated 707s between LHR/FRA. There was a route swap in the 70s when they "divided" Europe between them, TW pulled out of FRA for instance but came back in the 80s with flights to JFK and later STL non-stop. TW always was a bit smaller than PA but dominated in Paris over PA, I once flew ORY/JFK on a TW707 and remember that there was quite a number of TWA planes around at the terminal.

NA started LHR fliights in June 1970 and that bwas the only time when 3 US carriers served LHR. Later came Paris, AMS/FRA/BRU but these were all point to point operations, there was no real hub in Europe. In 1978 I was on a FRA/AMS/MIA flight, that was a DC10 and continued a few days later MIA/MCO/TPA which was a DC10 as well. Fuel was cheap those days.
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EDDM
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting A999 (Reply 14):
Don`t forget the RTW flights PA1/2 which also went daily through FRA.

Oooh! This sounds interesting. Any more info on those flights? Routings, equipment, whatever?
 
BCAL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting EDDM (Reply 31):
Any more info on those flights? Routings, equipment, whatever?

PA001 San Francisco-Honolulu-Tokyo-HongKong-Bangkok-Rangoon-Calcutta-Karachi-Tehran-Istanbul- Frankfurt-London-New York-San Francisco

PA002 was in the opposite direction.

The flights were operated by 707s, hence the relatively short hops. PanAm was not allowed to pick up any domestic travel between JFK and SFO.

I do not know if the aircraft was ever upgraded to a 747 but if it was, I would imagine some of the intermediate stops might have been dropped.

I remember flying LHR-FRA-IST and IST-FRA-LHR as an unaccompanied minor in circa 1966 and that was my first experience of American flight crews  
 



[Edited 2005-06-10 14:58:29]

[Edited 2005-06-10 14:59:42]
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rootsair
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:21 pm

I remeber PA coming with 727 to GVA. Where did these come from. FRA or LHR
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stirling
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:24 pm

PANAM 1959 ROUTE MAP

PANAM 1969 ROUTE MAP

Unfortunately these scans have visible signs of aging on the folds of the timetable, which correspond to where Frankfurt is located on the map.
Nonetheless, some interesting insight into a once very large international airline.

Continuing the theme of KFLA, departures from FRA: 1977.

Beograde/ThSu 727
Berlin/10XDaily 727/2X ExSu 727/Sa 727
Istanbul/Sa 727
London/Daily 747
Moscow/Tu 727
JFK/2XDaily 747
Prague/Mo 727
Tehran/Daily 747
Warsaw/WeFr 727

To answer the question about Rome. Same year, 1977.

Damascus/Sa 707
Istanbul/ExSa 707
JFK/ExWe 747 We 707

And Then Paris. 1977.

Nothing.

The round the world (RTW) flight PA1/2 (ExFr)
Westbound

747
Los Angeles
Honolulu
Tokyo
Hong Kong
(Delhi ExMoFr)
(Karachi Mo)
Tehran
Frankfurt
London
JFK
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EDDM
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 32):
PA001 San Francisco-Honolulu-Tokyo-HongKong-Bangkok-Rangoon-Calcutta-Karachi-Tehran-Istanbul- Frankfurt-London-New York-San Francisco

Thank you very much, BCAL, for sharing this!

Do you know how long that trip took? When did PA operate this flight? What was the cost for F? For Y?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
You are right, it was flight 103. And it was the 727-100 of cource, the 190 was a typing error.

What many people forget, is that PA103 had two equipment changes.

727-200 FRA-LHR, 747 FRA-JFK, and 727-200 JFK-DTW.
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stirling
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:42 pm

PA1

Dep LAX 0815
Arr HNL 1145

Dep HNL 1300
Arr NRT 1650 +1

Dep NRT 1800
Arr HKG 2140

Dep HKG 2300
Arr DEL 0350 +1

Dep DEL 0500
Arr THR 0725

Dep THR 0855
Arr FRA 1120

Dep FRA 1225
Arr LHR 1255

Dep LHR 1415
Arr JFK 1650
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BCAL
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:56 pm

@ Stirling

The route and times you quoted for PA001/002 must have been during the 70s. Was the service then operated with 747s?

Quoting EDDM (Reply 35):
Do you know how long that trip took? When did PA operate this flight? What was the cost for F? For Y?

Sorry, I do not know the answers to your questions but I am sure it must be available somewhere in the books remembering PanAm, or perhaps some a.net members might know.
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Clipper002
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RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:20 pm

BCAL,
Yes, the round the world trips were operated with the 747 as well. The trip actually took 2 1/2 days. When it was 707 it flew in a 32/94 configuration and the aircraft always came out of a maintenance check at JFK early in the morning. It's first trips prior to leaving as PA002 was to operate PA132/133 JFK/BDA/JFK getting back into JFK a little after 4 in the afternoon. That way, maintenance was given a 3 hour ground time to remedy in problems picked up on the BDA turn.

LAXintl, Believe the flight numbers were 120/121. Flight 150 series flights operated from JFK to LIS/BCN/NCE/FCO as well as JFK/SMA and BOS/SMA. The 120 series flight numbers were used for Polar operations. Actually Pan Am had a very sophsticated flight numbering system and you could generally tell a flights destnation just by knowing the flight number.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
kkfla737
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:28 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
NA started LHR fliights in June 1970 and that bwas the only time when 3 US carriers served LHR. Later came Paris, AMS/FRA/BRU but these were all point to point operations, there was no real hub in Europe

Yup National operated from all those cities and Zurich as well straight to the Miami hub where connections were possible to domestic cities and via Pan Am or Braniff to South America. Amsterdam was also served from JFK in addition to Miami. At the point when PA absorbed NA, NA actually had more nonstop destinations in Europe then PA did from JFK, since so many flights were routed via LHR, FRA or FCO on PA.
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:43 am

How many flights did PA operate on a normal day? I mean just looking at those route maps, it seems like all carriers known today look like peanuts!
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 29):
What did TW and NA serve from LHR? And I thought TW kinda had a hub in Paris back then. What flights did they have there?

Back in the 70's and into the 80's, TW served four cities in the US from LHR:
New York/JFK
Boston
Chicago
Los Angeles

Philadelphia came along later with a daily 707 service FRA-LHR-PHL. This started sometime mid to late 1978, and was the first Trans World service to Frankfurt since the Pan Am route swap in the mid 70's. Flights to JFK started several years later.

Paris was the major connecting point for flights between the US and the Middle East. Paris CDG was served from:
Boston
New York/JFK
Washington/Dulles
Los Angeles
Cairo
Tel Aviv
Kuwait
Bombay

TWA had their own round-the-world service in the 60's and into the early 70's.
Stops included..JFK-ORY-FCO-BOM-BKK-HKG-GUM-HNL-LAX-JFK. IIRC the flight was dropped in '73 or '74 for financial reasons...

Good comments from all. Keep 'em coming...
 
kkfla737
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:28 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:18 am

Pan Am operated between 15 and 20, Int'l flights a day from Frankfurt. The IGS services ithin Germany usually totaled 15 flights a day as well. These were flown with 727s.
 
Avalon
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 6:36 pm

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:40 am

I flew Pan Am from Lax To JFK, then JFK to Paris CDG in on new years' day, 1986, straight after transferring from a Qantas flight from Melbourne ( I scored 2 New Years that way). All sectors involved the same type of plane: 747-200, but the Pan Am flights were unbelievably poor - every part of the Pan Am planes seemed dirty and worn; the staff were friendly, but the service delivery was disorganised - it seemed that everywhere, something was wrong, which was a shock to me at the time, because I was expecting Qantas to be something of a poor relative compared to the mighty Pan Am.

Would I be stretching the thread too far by asking why Pan Am folded? Was it the Lockerbie disaster or were they already in mortal trouble?
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:49 am

There have been numerous threads on this subject. Go to a search and you'll find hundreds of posts referring to Pan Am's demise.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 43):
The IGS services ithin Germany usually totaled 15 flights a day as well. These were flown with 727s.

Mon-Fri only. Not all flights operated 7 days a week.
Amount of flights correlated to aircraft. More with 737, less with 727.

Only around 10 actual flights operated on a full daily.

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 41):
How many flights did PA operate on a normal day?

Pre National Merger?/Post National Merger?

They may have flown to many destinations, but prior to NA, it was only around 200 a day, not a lot....I will check my facts tonight when I have more time...

Quoting BCAL (Reply 38):
The route and times you quoted for PA001/002 must have been during the 70s. Was the service then operated with 747s?

That was the fall schedule of 1977. 747. Hence the non-daily schedule. Daily in Summer.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 42):
Paris was the major connecting point for flights between the US and the Middle East. Paris CDG was served from:
Boston
New York/JFK
Washington/Dulles
Los Angeles
Cairo
Tel Aviv
Kuwait
Bombay

Good example of why PanAm had an on-again/off-again relationship with Paris.
TWA was clearly the dominant carrier.
Delete this User
 
tundra767
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:04 am

WOW thanks for the history lesson guys! I always love hearing stories of the great PAN AM. What I would give for a quick flash back to the early 80's!
 
A999
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:28 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:04 am

BCAL

In 1980 I had to go to Japan and the US on business trips. I got the opportunity to bring my wife and we decided to combine the trips as we learned that PanAm had a special offer: "Round the World in 80 days or Less" The Y fare LHR to LHR was 998 Pounds while F was 1998 I believe. They also offered standby F for 1248 Pounds so we decoded to go for the latter. In fact it was called P class as there were sleeper seats. On the upper deck of the 747 there were 8 seats while some other carriers crammed 32 Y seats in the same space.
Our first leg was LHR-HKG, but as PA not having traffic fights on that sector (BA ,BR and CX only) we had to deplane and re-check in on an intermediate stop. On that particular day the routing was JFK-LHR-FRA-KHI-DEL-HKG-NRT-LAX. (The LAX-JFK leg had to be made either through IAH,MSY, MCO or MIA) Depending on the day the FRA-HKG sector could also be flown via DEL-BKK or KHI-BKK. After visiting Hong Kong for some days we went on to Tokyo NRT. From Tokyo we continued the day after to Nagoya, this time on "Skinkansen", the high-speed Bullet Train (also on First Class). One week later we boarded PA10 in Osaka bound for HNL for 9 days vacation!
Well, nothing lasts forever so on we went- this time on PA812 for LAX. It was great sitting in the Clipper Club lounge watching no less thah 5 PA 747`s on the tarmac at the same time.
LAX-MSY, MSY-MCO and MCO-JFK were all by 727`s, -200, -100 still in National colors and -100 respectively. After late arrival at JFK we were put on board PA104 instead of #2. LHR-Oslo on BA 737 Y class rounded up our trip.

It sure was an experience of a lifetime!
 
kkfla737
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:28 am

RE: Pan Am's Hub Operation In FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:11 am

TWA did some beyond service from Frankfurt in the early 90s. Istanbul, Berlin, Copenhagen and Vienna were served.

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