flyinTLow
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AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:27 am

Just the other day I saw 5!!! 747s in FRA. Where in the world are they coming from and where are they going to?


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What new destinations is AI planning on adding via FRA? I heard rumors a while back of them wanting to add IAH to their network. But is this decision pending on fleet growth? And what are the new B747 Combis doing?

[Edited 2005-06-09 20:47:55]
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drerx7
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:12 am

Yeah--there was a lengthy debate over IAH vs. DFW for AI. They may route the flights through LHR though.
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vivek0072
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:19 am

I read it somewhere , do not remember , but AI may have plans of making FRA as their second hub, with more Boeings joing their fleet and no space at BOM it did seem possible.
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aseem
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 2):

this is subject to imposition of transit visa by Germany, and relative compliance of CDG folks. As of today, the only constraint is fleet strength.
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flyinTLow
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:46 am

So is AI maybe even considering basing an aircraft or two in FRA? Or will the flights just be routed through FRA?
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shawnnyc
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 3):
this is subject to imposition of transit visa by Germany, and relative compliance of CDG folks. As of today, the only constraint is fleet strength.

Is CDG a better hub than FRA (visa aside)? I thought after the UK, Germany had the most O&D traffic to India. While FRA and CDG have good traffic to the USA, I thought AI had problems filling the seats of pax that de-planed in CDG for the onward to India.
 
lazyshaun
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:00 am

Probably because they have no more slots left at LHR...
They'll probably move onto CDG sooner or later...
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karan69
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 5):
Is CDG a better hub than FRA (visa aside)? I thought after the UK, Germany had the most O&D traffic to India. While FRA and CDG have good traffic to the USA, I thought AI had problems filling the seats of pax that de-planed in CDG for the onward to India.

You are right about O&D traffic from Germany--but only after UK as you mentioned and ofcourse USA.
FRA would def be a better hub, but i think that transit visa is hurting AIs expansion plans from FRA.

For future expansion they should route all USA flights via LHR and keep the current ones at FRA, and the CANADA flights through CDG and secondary airports like MAN/BHX/MUC. as there will be great 5th freedom from these flights
 
TheBigOne
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Thread starter):
Just the other day I saw 5!!! 747s in FRA. Where in the world are they coming from and where are they going to?

FlyinTLow - In answer to your question, these aircraft transit FRA on their way to LAX, ORD, from BOM / DEL.
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B747-437B
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:03 am

You saw 5 747s because 2 of them were running on multiple day delays after being AOGs at LAX.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
LAXDESI
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 7):
For future expansion they should route all USA flights via LHR and keep the current ones at FRA, and the CANADA flights through CDG and secondary airports like MAN/BHX/MUC. as there will be great 5th freedom from these flights

Does UK not require transit visas? I think AI needs a scissor hub, without which they can never offer convenient connectivity from multiple US cities to multiple Indian cities, like LH does through FRA. If AI could offer EWR/MAA-BLR or SFO/MAA-BLR, or LAX-MAA-BLR, one stop through FRA, they could realize a much higher yield even with older planes and perceived poor service. Convenient connections and reliable service are more important factors for many.

LHR gates may be difficult to acquire, and AI already codeshares with LH, which suggests that LHR is not a good choice for expansion.
 
incitatus
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
I think AI needs a scissor hub, without which they can never offer convenient connectivity from multiple US cities to multiple Indian cities,

That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.
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flyingzacko
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 11):
That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.

As much as I am a huge fan and very much in favor of AI's expansion, I don't think the airline is anywhere in a position to acquire those type of aircraft anytime soon. It's still a carrier in government hands, and a government, as we all know, for some reason are rather slow in making decisions... One day they will get there, but for now, they need to go for the alternatives possible for them.
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shawnnyc
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 12):
As much as I am a huge fan and very much in favor of AI's expansion, I don't think the airline is anywhere in a position to acquire those type of aircraft anytime soon. It's still a carrier in government hands, and a government, as we all know, for some reason are rather slow in making decisions... One day they will get there, but for now, they need to go for the alternatives possible for them.

Well the 777LR was already selected. THe government of India is slow, but these aircraft will come sooner rather than latter. The gov would not have liberalized so much if they had no intention of buying the aircraft (part of the reason the GOI never liberalized so much before was because they weren't prepared to buy ore aircraft). Everything has been set in motion - more flights for foreign airlines, allowing private carriers to fly international = AI must get more planes or be rendered obsolete.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 11):
That scissor hub should be BOM. The planes to do it are 777-200LR and A340-500.

For one-stop flights, it is better to have your stop somewhere in EU, halfway through the journey, then to have one long and another very short flight using BOM as a scissor hub. The advantage BOM may have is that of scheduling flights for USA market without regards to EU stops-thus providing flights at more convenient hours.
 
shawnnyc
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
For one-stop flights, it is better to have your stop somewhere in EU, halfway through the journey, then to have one long and another very short flight using BOM as a scissor hub. The advantage BOM may have is that of scheduling flights for USA market without regards to EU stops-thus providing flights at more convenient hours.

I don't know, aside from BOM airport being crap, I think people are going to be surprised by the comfort of a nonstop USA to BOM and then connecting. I have always hated connecting in Europe at what amounts to 3am NY time. When I took the nonstop to SIN from EWR, it was great. You got settled, slept when you got tired and had a full eight hours. Plus BOM when it becomes a proper hub would have short connection times and greater options if original connection is missed (in Europe it is usually one flight a day). And yes, I hope the nonstops end the days of arriving India at 1am and leaving at 3am (I always feel sorry for the people welcoming and seeing us off in India).
 
LAXDESI
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 15):
Plus BOM when it becomes a proper hub would have short connection times and greater options if original connection is missed (in Europe it is usually one flight a day).

I see your point. Wouldn't Delhi make a better hub than BOM for USA market as it is the northernmost airport and can provide shorter connection to CCU and other markets in East/North and also serve MAA/BLR/HYD.
 
shawnnyc
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:24 pm

DEL would location wise (I just used BOM as someone else mentioned it). That said, I think BOM will be the first hub for nonstops from the US simply because of the premium traffic that BOM has and the amount of O&D traffic. Right now BOM is the only city that could support a comprehensive array of nonstops to N. America (to say NYC, ORD, SFO, LAX, IAD, YYZ). The Indian carrier that can achieve close to this will really own the BOM based business traffic and then can work on bringing in the "gravy" from BLR, MAA, etc. Right now Indian carriers will do fine, but its just on tourist and ethnic traffic. They really need to "own" the premium traffic of a major city, and then see how the hub developes.
 
trvyyz
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 10):
Does UK not require transit visas?

Indian passport holder with a Permanent Resident/green card or a valid visa of Canada or USA and confirmed onward ticket can transit without visa through UK.

[Edited 2005-06-10 05:32:15]
 
LAXDESI
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:32 pm

Just heard from a friend from inside the aircraft on AI LAX-FRA-BOM flight. The flight is late for departure by one hour already, and will leave after another AI flight on the same route takes off first. This other flight is the delayed flight from yesterday.
My friend's flight is 100% full in economy and according to her about 10% of the passengers are Germans/Americans bound for FRA. This is much higher than the flight I took last July where the Germans/Americans were only about 2-3%. Looks like AI is able to attract a much higher share of LAX-FRA market.

[Edited 2005-06-10 05:55:03]
 
BN747
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 19):
Just heard from a friend from inside the aircraft on AI LAX-FRA-BOM flight. The flight is late for departure by one hour already, and will leave after another AI flight on the same route takes off first. This other flight is the delayed flight from yesterday

He must have been on board VT-EVJ... it indeed was late, sked 1900 and departed 2025 or so was VT-AIM, who was sked at 1830 and got off at 1915. I jetted down to get shots as both were parked right next to one another! This is the 2nd time in 5 days that two AI 744s arrived within minutes of each other-- sunday was hilarious: As VT-AIM and VT-AID arrived with 10 minutes of each other and the tower got confused and couldn't figure out who was assigned gate 101 at Bradley and who got a far off remote gate! Both did some lengthy and serious tours of LAX taxiways as it was being worked out!

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Thunderbird1
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:46 pm

On Tuesday there were two 747s at LAX, which seems like it's exploding with AI activity lately as well (-EVJ and -AIM).
 
nisson
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:00 pm

Quoting Thunderbird1 (Reply 21):
On Tuesday there were two 747s at LAX, which seems like it's exploding with AI activity lately as well

READ THIS: http://web.mid-day.com/news/city/2005/june//111247.htm probably related, probably not, but its still trying to catch up on normal ops, due to damage of one 747-400.

[Edited 2005-06-10 08:02:44]
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:23 pm

VT-AIM is suffering as the only combi in the fleet and dedicated to the LAX route, her AOG there a few weeks ago is still being felt through the system. Normally you would just cancel one flight and make up time but the loads are so busy at this time of year there simply isnt capacity to accomodate everyone!
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 9):
You saw 5 747s because 2 of them were running on multiple day delays after being AOGs at LAX.

Makes Sense.
BTW AI def need those extra Aircraft.
regds
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masterluu
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:45 pm

With every AI plane coming into LAX basically late or delayed for 23 hours. Or worse being cancelled for three or more days. This kind of activity from AI is more than questionable. and it remains to be questionable after the last three weeks if AI still will be able to take some market share on the Lax-Fra route from LH.
 
PanHAM
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:28 pm

Quoting Masterluu (Reply 25):
With every AI plane coming into LAX basically late or delayed for 23 hours. Or worse being cancelled for three or more days. This kind of activity from AI is more than questionable. and it remains to be questionable after the last three weeks if AI still will be able to take some market share on the Lax-Fra route from LH.

They can get a share of the market by price only. When PK was scheduling their NYC flights through FRA they were always the cheapest. What suprises me is the need of a transit visa, passengers changing here do not need to exist the transit area, they simply move from gate D6 to D5 for example but it might be that the Border Police is at the aircraft door to prevent someone from saying the magic word that provides for a paid holiday in Germany over several years.

Anyway, I saw people standing in the T2 gate area of an AI flight recently and they were in transit.
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flyinTLow
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 19):
My friend's flight is 100% full in economy and according to her about 10% of the passengers are Germans/Americans bound for FRA. This is much higher than the flight I took last July where the Germans/Americans were only about 2-3%. Looks like AI is able to attract a much higher share of LAX-FRA market.

Just as an example for their growing popularity. It was in some newspaper that said that the national soccer coach of Germany, Juergen Klinsmann, flew AI to LAX!
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BWI757
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:30 pm

What is a scissors hub? Never heard the term before. Thanks

BWI757
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HT
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 28):
What is a scissors hub?

To my knowlegde: Imagine flight routes in the shape of a "X" with very long legs. Or: Its like a mild form of a hub with only 4 spokes:
Say, 2 longhaul flights from different airports into one with alomsot the same arrival time, exchange pax (plus some O&D), then depart to two other airports still into the same geographical direction (and longhaul again).
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BWI757
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:24 pm

Thank you!

BWI757
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BaliMorris
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:08 pm

What's the story behind VT-AIM's AOG? I understand it involved radome damage, but was there a specific incident that caused this?
 
shawnnyc
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
They can get a share of the market by price only.

AI is fine with that, as they have a much lower cost structure than LH or UA and the German market is large enough for all the players. Plus I'm sure there are small businessmen who would love to be able to fly AI's business class or first at ~50% off the LH fare. AI hits a different market segment not served by LH & AI. AI biggest problem over peak season is that it can't sell too many LAX-FRA seats as it can't fill them all for the FRA-BOM leg. AI's JFK-LHR flight is a different story. They could have 90% of the pax from JFK deplane in LHR and fill the plane up with LHR pax going to India. Which is why: If the stock market will give the money to Jet, Jet should aggressively buy LHR slots and fly to the US (assuming the slot prices are not ridiculous).

Assuming India grows the way it is growing now, Europe - India O&D will continue to grow to fill up more of these flights. Given all of the liberal bilaterals India has signed with France, Germany, etc; look for Indian carriers to become bigger players in the USA-Europe routes as USA-India traffic will be shuttled to nonstops (a la SQ's strategy out of NYC and LA).
 
PanHAM
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 28):
What is a scissors hub? Never heard the term before. Thanks

BWI757

A good example is QF at SIN, flighs come in from Eruope and exchange passengers going to BNE/SYD/MEL/ADL/PER/CNS/DRW
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B747-437B
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 32):
If the stock market will give the money to Jet, Jet should aggressively buy LHR slots and fly to the US (assuming the slot prices are not ridiculous).

Slots cannot be "bought" as per EU policy. They can be "exchanged" and occasionally the exchange involves "other commercial considerations". Tomorrow is the start of SC116 in Berlin, so the latest "level of consideration" will quickly become evident.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
flyinTLow
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:18 am

I also heard AI wants to get rid of some of their older A300s? Is there something to that? Are they maybe considering converting them to freighters? AI seems to be doing rather well with cargo if the combi's AOG got them so confused and overwhelmed?!
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 35):
I also heard AI wants to get rid of some of their older A300s?

Air India donated all 3 of its A300 fleet to Ariana Afghanistan.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
flyinTLow
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:22 am

Are they even considering getting all-cargo aircraft then? I think they would definitly pay off for them!
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 2):
I read it somewhere , do not remember , but AI may have plans of making FRA as their second hub, with more Boeings joing their fleet and no space at BOM it did seem possible.

I thought DEL was AI's second hub.
 
masterluu
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 27):
Just as an example for their growing popularity. It was in some newspaper that said that the national soccer coach of Germany, Juergen Klinsmann, flew AI to LAX!

I can assure you that this is a lie. Lufthansa is the national soccer team sponsor and Mr Klinsmann flies Lufthansa on FRA-LAX. A busy person like him cannot afford a circus like AI is doing at LAX right now. Ai137 is already scheduled to come in late 5 hours for 11 Jun 2005. Scheduled to be late! Pathetic.
 
flyinTLow
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting Masterluu (Reply 39):
I can assure you that this is a lie. Lufthansa is the national soccer team sponsor and Mr Klinsmann flies Lufthansa on FRA-LAX. A busy person like him cannot afford a circus like AI is doing at LAX right now. Ai137 is already scheduled to come in late 5 hours for 11 Jun 2005. Scheduled to be late! Pathetic.

Of course I know that Lufthansa is the official carrier for the national soccer team, and the team and the trainer would never fly AI on anything official. But this must have been a private trip. And there are no rules for that matter for the private life of Klinsmann
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:38 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 40):
But this must have been a private trip.

That could be the Answer.Probably He wanted to Experience AI.
regds
MEL
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kkfla737
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 28):
What is a scissors hub? Never heard the term before. Thanks

BWI757

Pan Am @ FRA was the perfect example. With the exception of Berlin flights, the hub was mostly transcontinetal and passengers from several cities in the USA could connect onwards to Africa, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent. I personally used it several times to fly from Miami directly to FRankfurt and on to India and not have to deal with flying through JFK.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:18 pm

The Thread is almost same as that of mine- AIR INDIA Spotter's haven-FRA

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2120349
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
9V-SPF
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RE: AI's Invasion Of FRA

Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 40):
Of course I know that Lufthansa is the official carrier for the national soccer team, and the team and the trainer would never fly AI on anything official. But this must have been a private trip

I´m pretty sure that Mr Klinsmann doesn´t pay a single cent out of his own pocket for his regular trips between LA and Frankfurt. However, interesting to hear he took AI at least once.

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