CXoneworld
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Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:47 am

Despite recent media reports that Qatar Airways will order 60 aircrafts at the Paris show -- with the odds in Airbus' favour -- Reuters was told on Thursday that the airline has yet to make up its mind between the 787 and A350.

"No decision has been made yet but Qatar Airways aims to purchase 60 new planes from either Boeing's (787) Dreamliner or Airbus' A350," the source told Reuters. An order of that size would be worth about $9 billion.

Still, a split order is likely to be ruled out. "It doesn't make business sense to go half Boeing half Airbus because the costs of maintenance for parts and for training staff on different systems would be high."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8746927
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boeingbus
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:58 am

PR BS... they have been studying this over and over the higher ups know what they want... a better price! it's been decided but they just don't want to announce it yet for pricing reasons... make Airbus sweat...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
NYC777
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:00 am

Regardless, with the uncertainty over the A350, I think Boeing will still be price aggressive and win the order.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
zvezda
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:20 am

Boeing have the advantages of lower operating cost and lower manufacturing cost. Airbus need to offer a lower price to win, but unless Airbus are willing to sell at a loss, Boeing can offer the lower price.
 
DeltaWings
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:29 am

Maybe they are waiting fro EK to decide first? However, if they wont order an A/B split, then i have a feeling they will go for the A350, since they have been quite Airbus so far and the A350 is (-900) bigger then the 787, and thats what they want.

But who knows, what if they go for a 777 / 787 split
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:59 am

my bet is on the A350, but that's what I said about the AC order too..so....ummm...we'll just leave it at that... yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
dalecary
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:33 am

Hasn't Airbus said they now expect 350 orders in the weeks after Le Bourget and not at the show?
Hasn't QR said that they will definitely announce an order at Le Bourget?

If so, then the chances of a QR 350 order aren't that high IMO.

I also expect QR to order more than just 350/787.
 
Glom
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
Hasn't Airbus said they now expect 350 orders in the weeks after Le Bourget and not at the show?

I thought it was only 150 they said they were dealing with at the moment. Oh wait, you meant A350 orders. That could confuse stupid people.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
Hasn't Airbus said they now expect 350 orders in the weeks after Le Bourget and not at the show?

No, 150 and that was for the A350 alone. I think it best to wait until the airshow because everything else being said right now is hardly reputable.

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
Hasn't QR said that they will definitely announce an order at Le Bourget?

They will definitely order soon, and some say the deal is already finalised so I guess Le Bourget is the logical choice for an announcement as it will give the airline the greatest amount of PR possible.

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
If so, then the chances of a QR 350 order aren't that high IMO.

Hmmm, logically I would have thought asking the other two questions would lead you to assume that it was likely they would order the A350. But you're right, they will more than likely go with the 787.

 Wink
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
dalecary
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 8):
Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
Hasn't Airbus said they now expect 350 orders in the weeks after Le Bourget and not at the show?

Let me clear this up. I mean A350 orders and not 350 orders in total.
 
sq212
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 1):

Agree.

Shocker for A if it turns out to be in B favor.
 
wukka
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 10):
Shocker for A if it turns out to be in B favor.

It wouldn't be the first in Q1-2 '05.

 duck 
We can agree to disagree.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 10):
Shocker for A if it turns out to be in B favor.

Why? As everyone keeps saying the 787 is the better plane. Why would it be a shock for anyone if (when its announced) it QR go for the 787?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
sq212
Posts: 263
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:50 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 12):

I meant shock for A as a company, but not the forum members. Maybe I should use the term "surprise" instead of shock.

Cheers
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 13):

I think a "disapointment" would probably be the term. QR is a pretty good Airbus customer and was one of the candidates to launch the A350 along with EK. But in the end, what is important for them it to pick the aircraft that makes the most sense to them and I have little doubt that they could use either plane effectively... so I guess it comes down to price and as someone has said it seems that Boeing have the ability to go lower than Airbus on this particular plane.

The time frame may also be an issue? When would the deliveries be expected?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
sq212
Posts: 263
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):

Well Said.

If QR is looking for 359 or 789, will time frame be an issue?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):
QR is a pretty good Airbus customer

They were also an all-Boeing customer before they became an all-Airbus customer.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):
was one of the candidates to launch the A350 along with EK.

Says whom? This order has long been rumoured to be listing in Boeing's direction, it hasn't been until *this* week that there have been rumours that Airbus has a credible chance of winning part/all of the order. Remember the following:

1. Qatar is not looking for the 300-seat aircraft that EK wants. It was first proposed as a mix of 787-8/9 from Boeing or A358 from Airbus, in this event, the A359 "advantage" is a moot point. How well does the A358 fare with both the 787 variants on either side?

2. Qatar was eagerly lobbying Boeing to move the -9 EOS up to 2010 from 2012. In the last month, Boeing has done this.

This could repeat the awful 777 teaser, but if Airbus has been counting on QR for a launch order, they are being way more speculative than I would ever have imagined.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:23 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
They were also an all-Boeing customer before they became an all-Airbus customer.

Yes, but of course I meant of recent times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Says whom? This order has long been rumoured to be listing in Boeing's direction, it hasn't been until *this* week that there have been rumours that Airbus has a credible chance of winning part/all of the order.

Long rumoured in here, but outside of here and particularly at uni I had been hearing rumours up until last month that there was a very lucrative negotiation for A350 frames from QR. It seems they stalled at some point last month.

Which of course is why I said above that I believe the 787 deal is done and dusted.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Qatar is not looking for the 300-seat aircraft that EK wants. It was first proposed as a mix of 787-8/9 from Boeing or A358 from Airbus, in this event, the A359 "advantage" is a moot point. How well does the A358 fare with both the 787 variants on either side?

Of course as I have also said, it seems the 788 is the better plane so it should be no surprise that we will more than likely see it in QR colours. I think the fact that they were considering Airbus was purely a price/deal consideration more than a "perfect-fit" case.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Qatar was eagerly lobbying Boeing to move the -9 EOS up to 2010 from 2012. In the last month, Boeing has done this.

So am I to take it that QR will receive their order before some of the existing 787 customers? I would expect with a large order of 60 frames they would have some degree of elevation in the production line.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
This could repeat the awful 777 teaser, but if Airbus has been counting on QR for a launch order, they are being way more speculative than I would ever have imagined.

I am not sure that Airbus were "Counting," on this order as such (or as they possibly are on the EK order) but I still think they will be disappointed not to win this one.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
dalecary
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 17):
So am I to take it that QR will receive their order before some of the existing 787 customers? I would expect with a large order of 60 frames they would have some degree of elevation in the production line.

Basically, yes. QR have been offered 2008 slots. The Seattle Times had a piece about 2-3 weeks ago saying that QR had accepted a proposal for 10 788s. Whether Boeing can get this proposal acceptance to an MoU is unclear.
I still think this order is very murky and could go any way, including a split order. They want a lot of planes and their expansion plans are enormous. They might be best able to achieve this by using both manufacturers.
I think the order for 60 is deceptive and probably should read for "up to" 60. 30 firm + 30 options has been mentioned many a time for this order.
Things may have changed recently,however.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
Basically, yes. QR have been offered 2008 slots. The Seattle Times had a piece about 2-3 weeks ago saying that QR had accepted a proposal for 10 788s. Whether Boeing can get this proposal acceptance to an MoU is unclear.

Well done on QR's behalf I guess. I wonder which carriers are being "pushed back" if you could say that? Possibly Primaris, the two charter carriers or Ethiopian?

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
I still think this order is very murky and could go any way, including a split order. They want a lot of planes and their expansion plans are enormous. They might be best able to achieve this by using both manufacturers.
I think the order for 60 is deceptive and probably should read for "up to" 60. 30 firm + 30 options has been mentioned many a time for this order.

Its a possibility but its probably not likely. Not too many carriers are going with split orders nowadays however it could be possible considering the engine commonality between the two aircraft (allbeit bleedless v. non-bleedless versions). Maybe by next week we might know for sure?

I agree that it might be a 30+30 deal with Boeing though.  Wink
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
dalecary
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:24 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 19):
Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
Basically, yes. QR have been offered 2008 slots. The Seattle Times had a piece about 2-3 weeks ago saying that QR had accepted a proposal for 10 788s. Whether Boeing can get this proposal acceptance to an MoU is unclear.

Well done on QR's behalf I guess. I wonder which carriers are being "pushed back" if you could say that? Possibly Primaris, the two charter carriers or Ethiopian?

QR have refundable 787 deposits on 2008 delivery slots. Whether they now take them up or not will be announced next week.
Not all 2009 delivery slots have been announced yet.
 
nirvarma
Posts: 106
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:58 pm

Didn't boeing increase the size of the 789 recently? I seem to remember a few threads/articles where it was mentioned that boeing had increased the wing span slightly to accommodate the slight stretch...for QR if I recall...or am I just dreaming?

Cheers
NV
 
zvezda
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:38 pm

Quoting Nirvarma (Reply 21):
Didn't boeing increase the size of the 789 recently? I seem to remember a few threads/articles where it was mentioned that boeing had increased the wing span slightly to accommodate the slight stretch...for QR if I recall...or am I just dreaming?

In late 2004 Boeing increased the B787-8/9 wingspan slightly to leave open the possibility of someday further stretching it to a B787-10. Quite independently, in early 2005, after extensive modeling and wind tunnel testing, Boeing changed the shape of the aft fuselage, so that the last rows could accomodate one more seat each.
 
scotron11
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 19):

I agree that it might be a 30+30 deal with Boeing though. Wink

The Economist newspaper, out today, is saying that both Qatar and Emirates will order between them 100 A350's at the Paris Air Show.

Remains to be seen.
 
zvezda
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 23):
The Economist newspaper, out today, is saying that both Qatar and Emirates will order between them 100 A350's at the Paris Air Show.

The Economist newspaper? Do you mean the Economist weekly news magazine? If the latter, they have a long enough lead time that they could already have gone to print before EK announced that they would not annouce an order at Le Bourget.
 
abba
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Boeing have the advantages of lower operating cost and lower manufacturing cost. Airbus need to offer a lower price to win, but unless Airbus are willing to sell at a loss, Boeing can offer the lower price

Do you care - just for once - to provide any documentation for such a sweeping statement? You might even not know the A350's specs!

Abba
 
scotron11
Posts: 1191
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:47 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):

The Economist newspaper? Do you mean the Economist weekly news magazine?

The Economist is a newspaper, not a magazine. The article is from their print edition but I read it on their website. I didn't say it was true, I said it remains to be seen.

Let's wait and see what happens next week.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 25):

Do you care - just for once - to provide any documentation for such a sweeping statement?

I know enough about the manufacturing processes involved to make such a sweeping statement.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 25):
Do you care - just for once - to provide any documentation for such a sweeping statement? You might even not know the A350's specs!

First: stop saying that because you don't want to here it, there is pleanty to know about the A350 and comparisons can be made.

Second, the 787 will have lower manufacturing cost and lower list prices. The 787 variants start at approx. $130 million USD, the A350 starts at about $150 million USD.

The composite manufacturing and open architecture systems employed on the 787 snap together in mere days. It takes 15-30 days for most widebodies to complete final assembly once all the parts have reached the floor. The 787 will be assembled in three days, and therefore, require 12-27 less days of wages for labor cost per airplane. That is a tremendous savings to Boeing.

With regular bleed air ducts to route, regular wiring to run, and aluminum lithium components to join, it will be very difficult for the A350 to match the 787 for manufacturing efficency.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 10):
Shocker for A if it turns out to be in B favor.

Just like AC and NW you mean?

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 17):
So am I to take it that QR will receive their order before some of the existing 787 customers? I would expect with a large order of 60 frames they would have some degree of elevation in the production line.

Since they are so late to order, I think 2009-2010 deliveries are likely-unless they have 2008 slots reserved.

It would be cool if Boeing was able to announce this order at the Airshow next week.
One Nation Under God
 
N60659
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 25):
Do you care - just for once - to provide any documentation for such a sweeping statement? You might even not know the A350's specs!

In addition to Dfw's response, you may benefit significantly if you use the search function and look for previous discussions which contain several links to associated discussions.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
TGV
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:18 pm

Apparently the 787 option is not any more considered by QR:

QR announced on Monday to be planning to order "up to 60" A350 (delivery dates mid 2010 - 2015) and 20 B777 (delivery dates 2007-2010).

http://www.aerospacemedia.com/AFP/pr....asp?xml=050613101951.aj94csyj.xml

I guess there are hard talks in the background !
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans
 
widebody
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RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:09 pm

Armchair specialists again thrown to the lions. On one side we keep hearing on this board that the A350 'still hasn't left the drawing boards...', and on the other side we here '787 WILL have lower manufacturing costs and list prices...'....??!!

When the A350 design is frozen, production cost will a) be able to match the 787 if an all new aircraft is proposed, b) take advantage of existing jigs, assembly lines, trained staff etc if a hybrid aircraft is proposed or c) a combination of the above. There is not enough info in the public domain to even start to discuss some of the conversations that have already begun above.

[Edited 2005-06-13 14:10:47]
 
glacote
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Qatar Has Yet To Decide On 787/A350 Order

Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
I know enough about the manufacturing processes involved to make such a sweeping statement.

That's a little short as a backing fact.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):

First: stop saying that because you don't want to here it, there is pleanty to know about the A350 and comparisons can be made.

I would appreciate if you could point me back to them (I new to the forum).

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):

Second, the 787 will have lower manufacturing cost and lower list prices. The 787 variants start at approx. $130 million USD, the A350 starts at about $150 million USD.

Source?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
The composite manufacturing and open architecture systems employed on the 787 snap together in mere days. It takes 15-30 days for most widebodies to complete final assembly once all the parts have reached the floor. The 787 will be assembled in three days, and therefore, require 12-27 less days of wages for labor cost per airplane. That is a tremendous savings to Boeing.

I fail to understand this. I thought the all-new carbon weaving process just eliminates some riveting - but not all of them nor any wiring/customization.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
With regular bleed air ducts to route, regular wiring to run, and aluminum lithium components to join, it will be very difficult for the A350 to match the 787 for manufacturing efficency.

What do you mean by "non-regular bleer air ducts" and "non-regular wiring"?

Quoting N60659 (Reply 30):
In addition to Dfw's response, you may benefit significantly if you use the search function and look for previous discussions which contain several links to associated discussions.

I am new to the forum but believed that search was only available to first class members, isn't it ?

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