dutchjet
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CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:14 am

I have recently heard new rumors from several usually reliable sources that CO is looking to add between two and six 777-200ERs to its fleet; while CO has not announced anything, and continues to say publically that it cannot and will not invest in more widebody aircraft until the 787s arrive, the rumors I have heard are that CO is quietly looking at both new and used 772s (with GE90s) and is in discussions with both Boeing and ILFC and others to secure the aircraft. Has anyone else heard anything about this in recent days?

There are also several other "sub-rumors" connected with this story - Boeing offered CO additional 764s at a bargain price and CO said no, Boeing has offered to lease 744s to CO as an interim solution, and Boeing is having difficulty in delivering the 777s to CO within the time frame that they are looking for (seems CO's timing was bad, this renewed interest by CO in adding 772s came up just as Boeing landed a bunch of new 777 orders). I do not know if any of this is true. I did hear that CO wants atleast 2 and possibily 4 additional 772s in service by the Summer 2006 schedule (ie, one year from now)......by that point in time, CO will be operating both the EWR-DEL and EWR-PEK routes, and may have launched EWR-Shanghai (another 777 route) and other longhaul routes (which require atleast the range of the 767).

To continue the story, CO originally planned to pull 777s from most (if not all) transatlantic services out of EWR - downgrading routes flown with the 777 to the 767 and routes flown with the 767 to the 757 and then add additional frequencies to many key cities with the 757. (for example, a city that currently has one 777 flight per day would be switched to two flights per day, one with a 767 and other with a 757)....then the existing 777s could be used to open up the new long haul routes. The problem seems to be that demand on transatlantic (especially out of EWR) is very good at the moment (as are the yeilds) and CO wants to increase capacity on many routes (thus the extra 757 flights should be used for expansion only), CO has determined that the 752 is not the answer to all of its transatlantic problems (escpecially on routes to high-demand cities with competition) and with many new routes being considered that require the range of 767 or 777, failing to expand the longhaul fleet will create many compromises in the coming years.

Any additional information around? Your comments?
 
desertjets
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:29 am

Well given their planned long-haul expansion in the next 2 years they could certainly use the added lift. To some degree the 787s could not come soon enough. But I find it a little odd that they would turn down the 767-400; however I could understand it.
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gigneil
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:51 am

They could have the ones from Varig that ILFC seems to want back.

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UNITED777300
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:59 am

If ILFC wants the ex-UA 777's they'll be no use to CO. They want GE-powered models, the ex-UA ones are PW-powered.
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flyinTLow
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:04 am

Do those 777s have to be 200ERs necessarily? Wouldn't it be enough to put "regular" 200s or 300s even on those key-Atlantic routes, and use the free ERs on those new routes? Or am I totally misinformed and CO only has "regular" 777s?
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hawk44
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Thread starter):
Boeing has offered to lease 744s to CO as an interim solution

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N60659
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 4):
Or am I totally misinformed and CO only has "regular" 777s?

CO has 18 772ER's and no A-market 777's in their fleet.

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ConcordeBoy
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
They could have the ones from Varig that ILFC seems to want back.

That, and AF has continually floated the idea of leasing a small number of GE90-92B aircraft to other airlines (didn't pan out with AM, but perhaps CO could secure some'n).
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lightsaber
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Thread starter):
Boeing offered CO additional 764s at a bargain price and CO said no,

I'm not surprised. One of the recent aviation weeks pointed out how CO is making a good profit on the long haul. Since the 764's cannot do USA to China/Hong Kong/etc., they wouldn't fit in the long term "downturn resistant" structure that CO seems to be aiming for.

Quoting N60659 (Reply 6):
CO has 18 772ER's and no A-market 777's in their fleet.

CO is smart to keep the fleet standardized. Is anyone thinking of getting rid of 772ER's with GE-90's? Obviously CO would have to pick up the aircraft on leases to preserve their cash position.

Quoting Dutchjet (Thread starter):
To continue the story, CO originally planned to pull 777s from most (if not all) transatlantic services out of EWR - downgrading routes flown with the 777 to the 767 and routes flown with the 767 to the 757 and then add additional frequencies to many key cities with the 757.

Smart plan. It keeps aircraft on the existing routes (so one doesn't lose high yield customers) and moves the 777's to the more profitable long hauls.

CO will be one of the survivors (in my opinion). I thought they were getting a few new 772ER's without having to fork out pre-payments or a down payment. Anyone know more?

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ikramerica
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:30 am

I would imagine those two Varig 772ER with GE engines are as good as in COs fleet, as long as someone else doesn't agree to better lease terms.

2x777 should suffice for now.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:39 am

If Boeing offered CO 744s, I assume they'd be ER versions, but would Boeing really be able to offer delivery quicker than 777s? And what routes would CO use them on? EWR to TLV, HKG, NRT? Not saying CO would add 744s, as that would be another fleet type.
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rwsea
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
Smart plan. It keeps aircraft on the existing routes (so one doesn't lose high yield customers) and moves the 777's to the more profitable long hauls.

If I was a premium customer flying to FRA, AMS, or LGW, I'd be pretty angry if I was stuck on one of CO's sardine-can 757s over the Atlantic. I'd rather opt for an airline with a 767 or 777 instead. True that most people don't know the difference, although a higher portion of premium and frequent flyers sure will.
 
777gk
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:50 am

EWR-TLV is probably the best candidate in the system for 747 service. Any other routes (EWR-NRT,EWR-HKG,IAH-LGW) are currently well-served with the 777 and a 747 would probably only serve to dilute yields.

I will say that I have heard the rumors re: the former RG 772s, yet only internet speculation on the acquisition of 747s - which would be amazing - but clearly not a component of our long-term strategy.

FlyCaledonian, my guess would be that Boeing would offer up some secondhand 747-400s, maybe 2-3 airplanes, with GE power and very attractive lease rates. Business is business, and if the price was right I'm sure we would do it, but we are talking a MAJOR departure from our established precedents on fleet planning. Basically, it would have to be an offer CO couldn't refuse, with no Corleone-style strongarming on the part of Boeing.

Bottom line, I really can't see this 747 deal happening.

[Edited 2005-06-10 23:50:50]
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:50 am

Have you flown the sardine can in BF? I haven't yet, but will. I'll tell you if it is second class to a 777. Something about a mini cabin of 16 seats is appealing however. Would feel like a private jet. But we'll see.
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goCOgo
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

CO will no get a 747, especially as a stop gap measure.

The 2 TAP GE 777s (or any other GE powered ERs that might be repossessed) or subleases 777s from another airline are the only real possibilities. They won't waste their time on A-market or non GE used ones. Would be great to see them order 2+ 772LRs, but they won't as they don't have the cash. Plus I doubt CO could get new 777s delivered by next year.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 11):
If I was a premium customer flying to FRA, AMS, or LGW, I'd be pretty angry if I was stuck on one of CO's sardine-can 757s over the Atlantic.

1. I somehow doubt that those destinations will be reduced entirely to 757s. There may be a few (many of them summer additions such as the current EWR-LGW that is in addition to the 2x daily 772s), but those 3 above will definitely remain at least primarily 767.

2. BizFirst 757s are quite comfy.

3. If they go through with the PTV AVOD addition to the 752s, they would certainly be better than a non PTV widebody, that most airlines will send you on.
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drdivo
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 11):
True that most people don't know the difference, although a higher portion of premium and frequent flyers sure will

I utterly and respectfully disagree. The 757 is a terrific airplane, and having only 16 J class seats ensures a very high level of service. I am already looking forward to sampling CO's award winning "J" class service on flights to their new destinations - which can ONLY be made profitable flying aircraft with the lower CASM.

Are those of you who constantly bash CO's operating 757 equipment across the Atlantic aware that the 757 has the identical gauge to the 707? Would you have turned your nose up to PA Flt 01/02, which is being discussed in another thread presently because the cabin was a "sardine can?"
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flyinTLow
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting 777gk (Reply 12):
FlyCaledonian, my guess would be that Boeing would offer up some secondhand 747-400s, maybe 2-3 airplanes, with GE power and very attractive lease rates. Business is business, and if the price was right I'm sure we would do it, but we are talking a MAJOR departure from our established precedents on fleet planning. Basically, it would have to be an offer CO couldn't refuse, with no Corleone-style strongarming on the part of Boeing.

Yeah, totally agree. It would have to be an offer where the planes basically come in for free. Kinda like the car dealer giving you a rental before your actual car is delivered for free. It wouldn't make sense to have to train pilots, mechanics, etc. otherwise!

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 11):

If I was a premium customer flying to FRA, AMS, or LGW, I'd be pretty angry if I was stuck on one of CO's sardine-can 757s over the Atlantic

Now I really don't understand the whole deal with the 757s across the Atlantic. As I understand it, the seat pitch and leg-room were "trans-atlanticly" adjusted, so in your seat, you have the exact same room as you would have in a 777 or 767. Normally, you should remain in your seat most of the flight anyway, 90% of the time at least. Ok, the plane is a single isle (i doubt that single isle is more often filled with carts than on a 767), and it has less lavatories per passenger. But how often are you on those anyway? Maybe you have to wait longer. But if you judge the quality of your flight by the time you stand in line to wait to get on the toilet ...
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rwsea
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 16):
Now I really don't understand the whole deal with the 757s across the Atlantic. As I understand it, the seat pitch and leg-room were "trans-atlanticly" adjusted, so in your seat, you have the exact same room as you would have in a 777 or 767. Normally, you should remain in your seat most of the flight anyway, 90% of the time at least. Ok, the plane is a single isle (i doubt that single isle is more often filled with carts than on a 767), and it has less lavatories per passenger. But how often are you on those anyway? Maybe you have to wait longer. But if you judge the quality of your flight by the time you stand in line to wait to get on the toilet ...

There are the points you mention and a few others:

1) On a 757, only 1/3 of passengers are on the Aisle, as opposed to 4/7 on a 767 or 4/9 with the 777.

2) There are more middle seats than a 767 (2/6 vs 1/7)

3) Loading and Unloading is slower.

4) Less overhead room for baggage.

5) Lavatory and Carts-blocking-aisle argument that you mention.

6) Plane feels less spacious and a little more clausterphobic.


Additionally, CO's 757's are extremely uncomfortable in coach domestically (more so than UA, AA, or DL IMO - hence the sardine can comment), and I couldn't imagine the same experience as a coach passenger for a 7-9hour flight across the Atlantic, especially considering the factors above. BizElite might be different, but coach would be miserable if it's anything like the 757s I've taken to IAH.

Considering everyone who doesn't live in the NY area will have to connect to cities like HAM, TXL, or OSL anyways, why not fly somewhere like LHR, CGD, AMS, or FRA on a widebody with more amenities, and then take a quick 1-2 hour flight to the final destination? Admittedly, this works better for those in cities with international service than those without. These new services are really only an improvement for people in the NY area, or smaller cities without direct access to one of the European hubs (although are these really the cities driving these new flights? doubtful.)
 
flyinTLow
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
There are the points you mention and a few others:

1) On a 757, only 1/3 of passengers are on the Aisle, as opposed to 4/7 on a 767 or 4/9 with the 777.

2) There are more middle seats than a 767 (2/6 vs 1/7)

3) Loading and Unloading is slower.

4) Less overhead room for baggage.

5) Lavatory and Carts-blocking-aisle argument that you mention.

6) Plane feels less spacious and a little more clausterphobic.

Ok, should have taken my thought a little further, you are absolutly right about that. Although I definitly think having the middle middle seat on a 777 just is the worst spot to be on an airplane (after the wheel well that is).

And yes, I have to agree, every domestic 757 flight i have been on was horrible, I even got upgraded to first once on US, and it wasn't very much better than regular economy on an international flight. But I doubt CO left their international B757s in domestic configuration. Or they would have a product that is not anywhere competative to anything!
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blsbls99
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:55 am

Well, it sounds like there might be some options out there for CO for some additional widebody capacity within the next year. The Varig 777's that ILFC might be repo'ing, if that comes to fruition, would be the ideal candidates.
If not, there's 767's. And if additional 767-200s or 767-400s don't sound ideal to CO, maybe they should swing a few 767-300s (as those should have a better resale value).
The 747-400 option just sounds to big...unless it was an interim measure until they received some new order 777s (which seems ideal, but the "bank account" doesn't allow that).
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ikramerica
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
Considering everyone who doesn't live in the NY area will have to connect to cities like HAM, TXL, or OSL anyways, why not fly somewhere like LHR, CGD, AMS, or FRA on a widebody with more amenities, and then take a quick 1-2 hour flight to the final destination? Admittedly, this works better for those in cities with international service than those without. These new services are really only an improvement for people in the NY area, or smaller cities without direct access to one of the European hubs (although are these really the cities driving these new flights? doubtful.)

I agree the 757 as configured isn't great in economy (unless you are in the second exit row like I am most of the time), which is why I used my miles for BF. And the widebody has better amenities, but the 757 has plenty of lavs spaced well enough that carts should not be blocking them for very long.

As for connecting:

1. if you are connecting from outside a major city in the US, you would then need to connect at a hub, then at another hub, to get to smaller cities in europe. flying direct cuts out one connect, the connect at the end of the trip when you are tired and are worried about clearing customs and then making a local flight on time (or waiting around that airport for 2 hours), often departing from a different terminal, where you don't know the customs, possibly the language, etc. There are major benefits to making all connections in your home country. You could be at your hotel already flying direct while the pax who did the old fashioned way is still waiting at the hub airport for their connection.

2. it allows you to check in more easily coming home, since you would be going to the desk of your domestic airline and not having to connect with a euro carrier and figure out what to do. This can be very confusing, especially if you can't check your bags through (happened in Japan to me, due to 4+ hour connection). Not to mention, with the way so many flights leave for the US at or before noon, connecting to those flights can be very hard from some european cities without waking up far too early, already hard for Americans 6-9 hours off on time.

Taking both of those into account, the fewer amenities can be overcome by the convenience and lack of hassle.

I guess your question is: "Why would you choose to fly direct with a US carrier (or one stop with a local US hub) when you could connect to a euro carrier at a major US city, fly with a european carrier across the pond, and then connect at their hub city, or take the US carrier to the foreign hub, then change airlines and likely terminals?"

I hope you can see the answer to your own question there, for some people. Not all, but some. Including me.
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FlyingTexan
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Thread starter):
Any additional information around?

Larry Kellner was asked if plans exist to acquire additional 777s at the FlyerTalk event in April. His answer – a no comment.

That is answering the question - but no specifics and 2 month old info.
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dutchjet
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:26 am

Concerning the 757s accross the Atlantic:

While many at a.net get upset with the concept of a narrowbody plane accross the Atlantic, pax do not object. In most pax eyes, a nonstop narrowbody flight is better than a connection with a widebody airliner.....and most passengers really object to flying over 2 hubs to get to their destination....a nonstop 757 out of EWR to Europe or an easy connection at EWR is better than additional connections for most. And, how is BF on a 757 so different from sitting in the upper deck of a 747 (which everyone thinks is marvelous)?

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 21):

Larry Kellner was asked if plans exist to acquire additional 777s at the FlyerTalk event in April. His answer – a no comment.

That is answering the question - but no specifics and 2 month old info.

No comment is a very different answer from no......in my experience, a no comment answer usually means something is up but we dont want to talk about it just yet. Time will tell.
 
goCOgo
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
Considering everyone who doesn't live in the NY area will have to connect to cities like HAM, TXL, or OSL anyways, why not fly somewhere like LHR, CGD, AMS, or FRA on a widebody with more amenities, and then take a quick 1-2 hour flight to the final destination?

Many people prefer to connect at at a US airport. Less concerns about missing a connection due to customs/immigration issues, language barrier, etc. Some of the difficulties may be imagined, but they are real enough in the minds on enough travelers, including me.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
These new services are really only an improvement for people in the NY area, or smaller cities without direct access to one of the European hubs (although are these really the cities driving these new flights? doubtful.)

Believe me, CO sees a good amount of connecting traffic on these flights. Plus, a 752 serves LGW out of CLE. More might serve AMS or CDG for us. Is that helping NC, or us?

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
1) On a 757, only 1/3 of passengers are on the Aisle, as opposed to 4/7 on a 767 or 4/9 with the 777.

Yes, a 767 is great for aisle seats, but for 757 v 777, 1/3=0.333, 4/9=0.444. A difference, but a relatively small one.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
2) There are more middle seats than a 767 (2/6 vs 1/7)

But it is the same on a 777. 2/6=1/3=0.333, 3/9=1/3=0.333. I don't see you complaining about 777s

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
3) Loading and Unloading is slower.

Will 5-10 min kill you?

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
4) Less overhead room for baggage.

It's not like they reduce the amount you are allowed. People take too much carry-on baggage anyway. Maybe not being able to fit it will teach some of these people a lesson.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
5) Lavatory and Carts-blocking-aisle argument that you mention.

True. Also keep in mind that the ratio is one lav to 43 passengers. On a flight 7.5 hrs. long, an average length for many of these flights, each passenger has about 10 min in the lav. If you can't pee twice in that length of time, you may have a medical condition.  Wink

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
6) Plane feels less spacious and a little more clausterphobic.

That is based only on your personal experience, and some, including myself, don't find it to be the case.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
777ER
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:36 am

Will be nice to see B744s in CO colour scheme. Have Boeing and CO agreed on a delivery time for the 10x B787-8s?
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goCOgo
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 24):
Will be nice to see B744s in CO colour scheme.

Who said they were getting 744s? Rather, most have said that WON'T happen.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 24):
Have Boeing and CO agreed on a delivery time for the 10x B787-8s?

I heard 2009. Don't know if that has changed or if the specifics have been nailed down.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
aeroman62
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:33 am

The 757 business first is o.k., not as nice as the 777 or 767, but much better than the crummy coach seats. CO's coach seats on the 757, and frankly throughout the narrowbody fleet, are flimsy, thinly upholstered, seat itself is low, and the pitch is tight. I would not fly CO in economy across the atlantic, I've done it coast to coast, and frankly Jet Blue has a better coach product.
 
tpaewr
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:30 am

But ya can't take B6 to TXL or YAP,in fact you can't even fly them to LAX!
 
toxtethogrady
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:32 am

Everyone seems to be speculating about 'near-misses'. Seems to me what CAL needs are any spare 757 or 767 aircraft - and perhaps even the 767-300.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find the 8 additional 757-300's they leased; they don't appear to have shown up in the schedule anywhere. When I didn't see any additional 757-300 flights at IAH over the summer, I started searching the other hubs and didn't find them. When are these supposed to come on line - September?
 
toxtethogrady
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:34 am

"Larry Kellner was asked if plans exist to acquire additional 777s at the FlyerTalk event in April. His answer – a no comment."

Awfully coy. The 777's are putting in 15-hour days; there's not much margin for error...
 
cba
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:43 am

CO's coach is no more cramped than that of another legacy US carrier, unless you're flying in Economy Plus. The 777's I believe have a seat pitch of 32", the 767's have 33. That's about the standard. I flew a CO 777 IAH-CDG, a good 9 hour haul and the room was just about what I get on any other coach long haul.
 
drdivo
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 28):
Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find the 8 additional 757-300's they leased; they don't appear to have shown up in the schedule anywhere

I was told yesterday that they start coming online later this month.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 29):
Awfully coy. The 777's are putting in 15-hour days; there's not much margin for error...

Ye shall concur with the first part!

Alas, doesn’t the great globe spanning air carrier based in my hometown of Houston have a 777 sitting in Hong Kong for 15-16 hours?
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
tpaewr
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:24 pm

Yeah, but other than a tag (SGN perhaps? but UA is already there) there isn't much that could be done with it, beyong perhaps a 1230a-430a return from HKG, but I bet that would hurt yields too much.
 
cloud4000
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:23 pm

Doesn't BA have some 777s A-Series aircraft lying around?
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RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
There are major benefits to making all connections in your home country.



Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 23):
Many people prefer to connect at at a US airport. Less concerns about missing a connection due to customs/immigration issues,

I don't understand these at all. If I'm flying TXL-SFO, connecting at EWR/JFK I would need to clear customs there, and would definitely be worried about my connection, plus have the hassle/anxiety (if I need to check bags) of waiting for bags to come out before I clear and move on to my connection. If instead I connect in Europe to a flight to SFO, my connection is almost like a domestic US connection (maybe a little extra security, big deal, but no waiting for bags, long lines, etc.) and then I do the immigration/bags/customs thing when I'm already physically at SFO. I've done this connecting at FRA, MUC, AMS, and LHR with no problems at all, and really can't imagine connecting in the US instead on the way home. The outbound, I'm fine with either way, but the return, I see a huge advantage to connecting there rather than here.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:20 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 30):
CO's coach is no more cramped than that of another legacy US carrier, unless you're flying in Economy Plus. The 777's I believe have a seat pitch of 32", the 767's have 33. That's about the standard. I flew a CO 777 IAH-CDG, a good 9 hour haul and the room was just about what I get on any other coach long haul.

try 31" on both in coach.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
The777Man
Posts: 5936
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:15 pm

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 33):
Yeah, but other than a tag (SGN perhaps? but UA is already there) there isn't much that could be done with it, beyong perhaps a 1230a-430a return from HKG, but I bet that would hurt yields too much.

I think they could extend the HKG flight to SIN or BKK also.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:17 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 35):
I don't understand these at all. If I'm flying TXL-SFO, connecting at EWR/JFK I would need to clear customs there, and would definitely be worried about my connection, plus have the hassle/anxiety (if I need to check bags) of waiting for bags to come out before I clear and move on to my connection. If instead I connect in Europe to a flight to SFO, my connection is almost like a domestic US connection (maybe a little extra security, big deal, but no waiting for bags, long lines, etc.) and then I do the immigration/bags/customs thing when I'm already physically at SFO. I've done this connecting at FRA, MUC, AMS, and LHR with no problems at all, and really can't imagine connecting in the US instead on the way home. The outbound, I'm fine with either way, but the return, I see a huge advantage to connecting there rather than here.

Definitly have to agree with that! Always flew US or UA to the US, and connecting in PHL never worked out for me (4 tries = 4 trips that started out with no luggage the first day!) It is beyond annoying to have to wait for your bags. Now after a transatlantic flight, you are always tired, no matter what direction. So it just makes sense to get the whole connecting thing over with before crossing the pond.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
codc10
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:21 pm

31" on the 757 and 777, 32" on the 767.

The 767 is marginally more comfortable, due to pitch and the 2-3-2 arrangement.

As I understand, CO is not interested in international tag-on routes, and will be focused on nonstop long hauls out of the IAH/EWR hubs, the next one to come on line being IAH-EZE pending a likely government approval. That said, I think further tweaking of the HKG schedule is necessary to squeeze a few more drops of use out of the airplanes, but 777 heavy maintenance is done in HKG and this might have something to do with the long layover.

I think a need for more 777s is evident, and also I believe we have seen the last days of CO 747 service. As much as I liked them, I think they are too big to be a profitable member of the CO fleet. If CO can do it with higher load factors, better yields, and greater margins with the 777s, there is no need to step up to the 74'.

Hopefully the next 2-4 months will yield some concrete information of futher widebody growth, otherwise I'll be very interested to see a broad picture of CO's scheduling for widebodies next year- it will certainly be a case study in fleet efficiency.
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:32 pm

Just an idea - not that CO would ever go for that though:

Before CO would go for 747s, would they maybe consider some A330s or something if they came in cheap?

I know CO is all Boeing, so please don't kill me for throwing this in. It wont happen, I know that! But it's probably just as likely as CO bringing in 747s! And from the size/endurance of aircraft CO is looking for, wouldn't a 330 or 340 be an option?
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:07 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 30):
CO's coach is no more cramped than that of another legacy US carrier, unless you're flying in Economy Plus.

CO offers 31"-32" on its international fleet. Compare to US's A330s at 34", with AVOD at every seat.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 40):
Before CO would go for 747s, would they maybe consider some A330s or something if they came in cheap?

It would be horrendously expensive, as would operating the 744.

The problems start with issues like crewing and servicing. Both types are not part of CO's current fleet, and neither has any commonality with existing aircraft. CO would need to recruit and train a number of crews to operate the aircraft, and 744 crews in particular would potentially be hard to come by.

The costs would soon outweigh any benefit especially if they had to go looking at agencies for crewing and operating a relatively inflexible schedule with a limited number of aircraft on longhaul routes.

There might be some ex-United people available but again it's the expense of relocation and management of a 744 crew operation that would be the killer. They won't expect to fly for bargain rates either. And that's before getting into servicing and spares!
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 4):
Wouldn't it be enough to put "regular" 200s or 300s even on those key-Atlantic routes

No, because of the way CO utilizes its fleet, particularly the 777s. They don't make simple round trips, they constantly move all over the system to squeeze every drop of utilization out of them. Look at some of the Peter Max threads to see this in action

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 10):
If Boeing offered CO 744s, I assume they'd be ER versions,

That would depend on CO's needs and what Boeing wanted to build.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 10):
but would Boeing really be able to offer delivery quicker than 777s?

Much quicker

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 14):
The 2 TAP GE 777s

TAP does not have 777s

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
1) On a 757, only 1/3 of passengers are on the Aisle, as opposed to 4/7 on a 767 or 4/9 with the 777.

Many people prefer the window.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
4) Less overhead room for baggage.

There is nearly as much room per passenger on the 757s

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 34):
Doesn't BA have some 777s A-Series aircraft lying around?

They are flying them, and CO would not want 772As
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1501
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:13 pm

I find it rather remarkable that this rumors consists of two types of planes that Boeing needs to keep it's productionline open for. The B767 for the B767 Tanker program and the B747 for the B747 Advanced. The planes can be offered in a very sweet deal.

Maybe CO will take the bite!

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:34 pm

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 34):
Doesn't BA have some 777s A-Series aircraft lying around?

BA did have two excess 777As, I think that they are now with Varig and BA has kept three 777As in their fleet.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 32):


Alas, doesn’t the great globe spanning air carrier based in my hometown of Houston have a 777 sitting in Hong Kong for 15-16 hours?

CO frequently takes care of mantainance items on the 777 fleet while they are idle at HKG. Airliners do need some down time for checks and simple repairs, and CO contracts work to a maintainance operator at HKG.

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 40):
Just an idea - not that CO would ever go for that though:


Before CO would go for 747s, would they maybe consider some A330s or something if they came in cheap?

I know CO is all Boeing, so please don't kill me for throwing this in. It wont happen, I know that! But it's probably just as likely as CO bringing in 747s! And from the size/endurance of aircraft CO is looking for, wouldn't a 330 or 340 be an option?

CO is not looking at Airbus aircraft to solve its longhaul needs.......CO may want to add more 777s to the fleet. The 744 was propably suggested by BOeing as an interim solution, ie, why not take 4 used 744s (which Boeing I think has in inventory sitting idle and owned by BOeing Aircraft Leasing) at a very low lease rate and fly them for a couple years until we can deliver your new 772s (which would probably also be financed through a leasing deal).
 
goCOgo
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:04 pm

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 28):
I'm still trying to find the 8 additional 757-300's they leased; they don't appear to have shown up in the schedule anywhere.

For one, they are putting a 753 on a CLE-SEA run for the summer. Probably for all the Alaska cruse traffic. I'm sure there are more.

Quoting 3201 (Reply 35):
I don't understand these at all. If I'm flying TXL-SFO, connecting at EWR/JFK I would need to clear customs there, and would definitely be worried about my connection, plus have the hassle/anxiety (if I need to check bags) of waiting for bags to come out before I clear and move on to my connection. If instead I connect in Europe to a flight to SFO, my connection is almost like a domestic US connection (maybe a little extra security, big deal, but no waiting for bags, long lines, etc.) and then I do the immigration/bags/customs thing when I'm already physically at SFO. I've done this connecting at FRA, MUC, AMS, and LHR with no problems at all, and really can't imagine connecting in the US instead on the way home. The outbound, I'm fine with either way, but the return, I see a huge advantage to connecting there rather than here.

Turn that around. Lets say you are starting in SFO. Fly to EWR, and you have only a domestic connection and can go on to TXL. If you went to LHR, AMS, CDG, or FRA, you would have to clear customs, and them making the connecting flight. Plus, of larger concern is language issues. Yeah, most speak great English, and I don't honestly think I would have a problem, but connecting in an American hub would ensure I wouldn't have a problem. Even in LHR, I might worry about using some idioms that the Brits might not follow, and I'd rather not spend loads of time explaining myself, or playing The Ugly American. The return? Yeah, there might be some advantages to connecting overseas, but there would still be language issues. Real or imagined, these fears do drive the choices of many.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
TAP does not have 777s

Sorry, got mixed up with my names between two threads I was looking at. I meant to say "Varig," TAP was meant for the Portugal-Sky team thread. I hope I didn't say "Varig" over their.  Smile
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 46):
Real or imagined, these fears do drive the choices of many.

yeah, have to agree to that with a lot of people that I know.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
CB777
Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 8:13 am

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:36 pm

I read somewhere that Varig might be returning the A market 777's instead of the ER's
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: CO Looking For 777s - New Rumors

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 46):
Turn that around. Lets say you are starting in SFO. Fly to EWR, and you have only a domestic connection and can go on to TXL. If you went to LHR, AMS, CDG, or FRA, you would have to clear customs, and them making the connecting flight.

I've never had to clear customs connecting in LHR, FRA, or MUC. In Germany, there's a very short formality with passport control, but you don't need to get your bags, they're checked through. In LHR, you go through "Flight Connections," which is just a short security screening, no immigration or customs, again bags are checked through -- at least the last time I did it, I'll admit it's been a while. As for the language problem, there's no problem in Germany or the Netherlands, and only a small one at LHR.  Wink

I'll agree that true optimal would be connect US outbound and Europe return (so for the TXL example, Skyteam outbound via NY, return via CDG or AMS), but if you have to pick one it's not even close, apples and oranges.
7 hours aint long-haul

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