na
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SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:39 pm

Singapore Airlines interest in the 747 isn´t dead.
Flight International reports in their current issue that SIA wants to order more aircraft for the top end of their fleet - more A380s -or 747 Advanced. Boeings recent presentations have reportedly raised SQs interest in the next generation Jumbo Jet again.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:50 pm

That's good. Hope they will order the B 747 Advanced. Let's say 25+.

I am sure they will top up their A 380 orders eventually.
 
N79969
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:50 pm

That is positive news. On one hand, the A380 has an edge as they would be additions to an existing fleet. The current 744 are on the way out if I am not mistaken and 747Adv would be a new type with all that entails. On the other hand the A380 is running late which does not help in a sales pitch for more A380. Thanks for posting that.

I really hope that they do select 747 and give the legendary 747 another lease on life.

Which makes me think though...if Boeing manages to create and capture the niche above the existing 747-400 and below the A380, that would seem to short circuit the A380 sales plan. Any thoughts on that?
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:56 pm

The current B 747-400s will stay for a while. When they are due for replacement, the B 747 Advanced can do the job.

The A 380s will be used on ultra high capacity routes.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 2):
On the other hand the A380 is running late which does not help in a sales pitch for more A380.

I think you can't combine this order with the delay of their first plane. Singapore was very aware delays could rise when ordering the plane. Also their representative in Toulouse kept the management in the loop. A order for more A380's will be for delivery some years from now. Airbus won't have any problems anymore with the production and Singapore knows this. Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

They are more likely to order the B 777-200LR and the B 787 I think. They already have the world's largest B 777 fleet.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, GO SQ!!!!!!!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Flight International reports in their current issue that SIA wants to order more aircraft for the top end of their fleet - more A380s -or 747 Advanced. Boeings recent presentations have reportedly raised SQs interest in the next generation Jumbo Jet again.

IMO you can look at this any of two ways:

# 1. SQ has been presented with a product compelling enough to consider breaking from their plan of "mis-using" A380 on 747 routes.

# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market  Wink
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
N79969
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:12 am

LifelinerOne,

While I am sure Singapore and other airlines were aware a delay was possible, by all published accounts they were caught offguard by the 6-month and expressed frustration that Airbus knew about the German production problem during rollout in January and got around to informing customers only within the last few weeks. I do not think that even their rep in Tolouse was informed either by the sounds of it. My point is raising this is that Airbus has to work hard to regain some of the trust that may have been lost recently.

Other than that, I think your optimistic view is fair.

PS I agree with DFWRevolution 100%. Well spoken.

[Edited 2005-06-11 17:13:57]
 
Rj111
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:20 am

The 747adv could be useful as a freighter for SQ, so if they chose that, there's no reason why a few 744adv pax could hurt, I guess.
 
leigh pilgrim
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:23 am

As maybe mentioned above, this could just be politics again, sadly they may only be interested in the B747Adv to get Airbus to 'make some changes', like get there A380 delivered on time?!!, a bit of........... 'OK if you cant do it, maybe they can?'
 
Boogyjay
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market

That is completely true! If Boeing doesn't come up with the B747Adv, Airbus will be alone on the market of 450+ pax aircrafts. Hence, the prices will skyrocket. Having no competition is not good in any business...
A lot of them sure want Boeing to go ahead with the B747Adv.

In the other hand, the B747Adv has a good niche in the market. Some only need a 450 seats a/c, some do only need a 500+ seats, others need both, ...
More choices on the market means more suitable a/c for every company, hence better economics for everyone -us, average pax, included Big grin -.

For the delay disappointment, even if they were very happy about it (growth not as big as predicted, more time needed for crew and staff trainings, ...), they won't come and say: "Hey  bigthumbsup , that's great news, we were actually in a rush too and that helps us a lot!". They will rather use the opportunity to have better bargains...
That being said, it might very well have disappointed them Big grin
But let's wait for what will actually happen. The plane can be even more delayed but it's also not impossible that the delay decreases or even disappears.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

# 1. SQ has been presented with a product compelling enough to consider breaking from their plan of "mis-using" A380 on 747 routes.

Might be a way to negotiate a better deal in the future....

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 10):
In the other hand, the B747Adv has a good niche in the market. Some only need a 450 seats a/c, some do only need a 500+ seats, others need both, ...

I hope they will order it.
 
AF-A319
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market Wink

You're totally right. For all current and future A380 customers, having an alternative on the market means a lower price tag for the airbus whale. I don't think that airlines buying VLAs are ready to experience what they endured with the 744 monopoly.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:38 am

I think right now any more future 747 orders for SQ will really depend on if Airbus can successfully demonstrate 8,000 still-air nautical mile range on the A380-800 at the common MTOW of the plane. If Airbus does reach that goal expect SQ to buy convert all their options for the A388 to full orders and (in my humble opinion!  Smile ) possibly buy another 10 more planes.

As for SQ getting the 747 Advanced, they are very definitely interested in the freighter version of that plane. That could make it possible to fly from SIN almost to all of Europe non-stop with a reasonable cargo load.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 13):
I think right now any more future 747 orders for SQ will really depend on if Airbus can successfully demonstrate 8,000 still-air nautical mile range on the A380-800 at the common MTOW of the plane. If Airbus does reach that goal expect SQ to buy convert all their options for the A388 to full orders and (in my humble opinion! ) possibly buy another 10 more planes.

As for SQ getting the 747 Advanced, they are very definitely interested in the freighter version of that plane. That could make it possible to fly from SIN almost to all of Europe non-stop with a reasonable cargo load.

They might want more than 25 A 380s I think. They might even place additional orders for it.

The B 747 Advanced can fill in the gap between the B 777-300ER and the A 380. It has a chance I think....
 
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B742
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:53 am

I would love to see a mixed order!

The A380 could be used just on routes like LHR-SIN, SIN-SYD, SIN-FRA......
Whereas the 747ADV could be used to replace the 744's on smaller routes!

Common Boeing annouce the 747ADV!

Rob!
 
zvezda
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:00 am

SIN-FRA? I think SQ would prefer to operate 3x daily SIN-FRA than upgauge to the WhaleJet. We'll see.
 
Rj111
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:12 am

Who said they have to operate the same plane on every flight to FRA?
 
zvezda
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
Who said they have to operate the same plane on every flight to FRA?

Huh? Did you infer that from what I wrote? I didn't imply that.

SQ will probably not want to upgauge SQ025/SQ026 because the WhaleJet would be too large for the tag to JFK. SQ325/SQ326 are rarely full and fly wingtip with a LH B747-400 (I fly the route 4 to 6 times per year) so upgauging to a WhaleJet doesn't make sense here either.

Another option for SQ would be to change the schedule for SQ026 as follows (eliminating the all-day JFK non-utilization):
SIN-FRA 0800 1430
FRA-JFK 1630 1845
JFK-FRA 2135 1115+1 (current schedule SQ025)
FRA-SIN 1235 0630+1 (current schedule SQ025)

... and add a B777-200ER that operates SIN-FRA on a schedule about an hour earlier than SQ026 does now:
SIN-FRA 2250 0530+1
FRA-SIN 0730 0130+1

The result would be:
SIN-FRA
0800 1430 B747-400
1405 2045 B747-400
2250 0530+1 B777-200
FRA-SIN
0730 0130+1 B777-200
1235 0630+1 B747-400
2225 1625+1 B747-400
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:42 am

I was hoping Boeing would have dropped the 747ADV like a bad habit until I saw a full feature article of it in a special edition of Airliners magazine. Apparently not too many A.netters have seen the magazine because I've heard no mention of it. Believe you me, I must admit that 747Adv is impressive to say the least. It's really not a warmed-over -400. It may look mostly the same on the outside but what Boeing is planning on doing on the inside is really what would sell the 747A to me if I were CEO of an airline.

Boeing is planning on using the entire length of the top deck behind the distinctive hump as "Sky Suites" for business class passengers. I was impressed by this because I thought they were only going to utilize a small portion of that space. And they eliminated the straight staircase to the upper deck, found on the 747-400, with a curved staircase thats positioned more towards the right side of the plane (I believe its the right side). The staircase is awesome. Passengers will be able to see all the way through to the top deck from the bottom of the staircase. Its going to be a huge open area from top to bottom. And Boeing is changing the entryway between doors 3 & 4 (I believe) to look more like a lobby-area. Airlines can place a large bar there. As currently configured, the doors 3 & 4 entryway leads into an unwelcoming galley area. And of course the interior design looks better than the 777.

But enough rambling, I think that SQ colors would look beautiful on a 747Adv but of course, that isn't basis for SQ buying them. I'm not sure what SQ's need are of present, but I know one thing ... I definitely do want Boeing to launch the 747Adv now.
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
Ken777
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:05 am

The 747ADV makes sense for SQ - especially if they get approval for the SYD - LAX route, but with size restrictions that would keep the 380 off the route. The 747 ADV will sit nicely between the 777 and 380 and will therefore be practical when he economies (or restrictions) of a route rule out the 777/380 options.

I believe that the 747 ADV gives SQ@ more precision in assigning the right plane for each route, with shifts during the year to accommodate high and low seasons. I also think that SQ wants to be able to continue to put pressure on Airbus with regards to 380 pricing and performance. The 747 ADV does that very well.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:12 am

They better order it then.

GO BOEING AND GO SQ!!!!!!!!!
 
Rj111
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
Another option for SQ would be to change the schedule for SQ026 as follows (eliminating the all-day JFK non-utilization):
SIN-FRA 0800 1430
FRA-JFK 1630 1845
JFK-FRA 2135 1115+1 (current schedule SQ025)
FRA-SIN 1235 0630+1 (current schedule SQ025)

... and add a B777-200ER that operates SIN-FRA on a schedule about an hour earlier than SQ026 does now:
SIN-FRA 2250 0530+1
FRA-SIN 0730 0130+1

The result would be:
SIN-FRA
0800 1430 B747-400
1405 2045 B747-400
2250 0530+1 B777-200
FRA-SIN
0730 0130+1 B777-200
1235 0630+1 B747-400
2225 1625+1 B747-400

Or they could just operate an A380 and a 773ER. Using the 777 for the SIN-FRA-NYC-FRA-SIN flights and the A380 for SIN-FRA-SIN. Would save em a lot of fuel, a couple of slots, free up a plane, be more viable on the 'rarely full' JFK flight, and result in roughly the same capacity SIN-FRA-SIN as there is now. To me, this sounds so much more logical, i've got a feeling i must have calculated something wrong.

And i'd be shocked if FRA didn't get upgraded (upgauged) to an A380 (whalejet).
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:34 am

How is SIN-FRA-JFK doing recently? Heard that flights are full from time to time. If that's the case they can easily put a B 747 Advanced or even an A 380 in this route.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
I think you can't combine this order with the delay of their first plane. Singapore was very aware delays could rise when ordering the plane. Also their representative in Toulouse kept the management in the loop. A order for more A380's will be for delivery some years from now. Airbus won't have any problems anymore with the production and Singapore knows this. Airbus might throw in some discount because of the delay, but I think this discount will be given in the A350 offer.

This is hard to believe given the statements that both Singapore and Qantas made about the delays.
Keepin' it real.
 
dutchjet
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:41 am

When SQ goes airplane shopping and is in a buying mood, its very hard to predict the result. SQ has sent mixed signals concerning the 747A, at one point they seemed very interested in the product, then there was a period where SQ implied that they would pass on the 747A and focus on the 773ER, and now there seems to be reason to believe that SQ is again taking a look at what the 747A is all about.

SQ, and other major carriers, are desperately trying to figure out exactly how many routes will be able to support the A380 and not harm yeilds. In SQ's case, there are many, many routes where filling the 550 seats on the A380 would be no problem, but there are many more issues than simply filling up the seats......in many markets, SQ wants to maintain multiple frequencies, and simply filling up the extra seats on the A350 with lowfare traffic is bad business and will hurt yeilds throughout the system. Also, remember that the A380 is an expensive toy.

So far, SQ's commitment to the A380 is very conservative, 10 airframes, which are needed to operate a handful of key routes like LHR-SIN, SIN-XXX-LAX, SIN-SYD and possibly a couple of others. The question that SQ is struggling with is how to handle all of the other routes now flown by the 744....can some of those routes handle the A380, or is it better business to "downgrade" some of those routes to the 773ER, or is the best alternative the 747A which will bridge the gap capacity wise between the 773ER and the A380? And, does it make sense to have yet another type in the fleet or is better to mis-use the A380 on certain routes that really cannot support it? (SQ has used this strategy before, the results were not great).

Many other airlines, say CX, BA, AF, LH and QF are in the same position.....trying to determine which approach makes the most sense. I personally think that there is a need for the 747A.....the A380 is an amazing aircraft and it will work on certain routes, but not every route now flown with a 744 can handle the A380 without negative financial implications, and while the 773ER (or A346) are also alternatives, many of the mentioned airlines do not want to downsize their capacity in a hopefully growing market. But I have said that time is really becoming of the essence - Boeing really must make a decision concerning the 747A very soon or they will miss out on orders from key airlines like SQ.
 
dl021
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:07 am

I read that Airliners review on the 747A and it does look pretty spectacular. I was particularly amused when they showed a bar and a shower. It looked like they were stealing a bit of advertising thunder. It would be truly funny if they announced the 747A at the show next week.

Here's hoping.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
hnl-jack
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:30 am

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned operational versatility. The 747A will be able to operate from current facilities all over the world. On the other hand, only a handful of airports will be capable of handling the A-380 in the next five to ten years.
 
Luke
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 27):
The 747A will be able to operate from current facilities all over the world. On the other hand, only a handful of airports will be capable of handling the A-380 in the next five to ten years.

I was thinking the same, although no one else had mentioned it so I then thought that it might not be the case..

It's certainly another real advantage.
 
zvezda
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 22):
Or they could just operate an A380 and a 773ER. Using the 777 for the SIN-FRA-NYC-FRA-SIN flights and the A380 for SIN-FRA-SIN.

There is no way that SQ is going to downgauge SQ025/SQ026 to the B777-300ER because between SIN and FRA it is often full with good yields. It also makes no sense to upgauge SQ325/SQ326 to the WhaleJet because they are more difficult to fill. They could do it they other way around, but then they would need to either drop the JFK tag, upgauge it to a WhaleJet, or leave a B777-300ER (and the connecting passengers) sitting around FRA.
 
Planesmart
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
# 2. SQ knows that if no 747-Adv is launched, then this is their last opportunity to get Airbus to offer a competitive offer for A380. They won't come cheap when it's the only large aircraft on the market

That is part of the thinking at SQ, and precisely the fears B are trying to exploit as the sands of time run out for a conventional 747ADV launch (ie not fully utilising 787 technology).

However, SQ are less keen in 2005 to be a launch customer, and they do not want to be the catalyst for the 747ADV alone.

The reality is B have / are finding it hard to find customer interest in the 747ADV. No-one wants to be the launch customer, everyone wants firm performance guarantees that it will better the A38 before signing up (which is way too early for conservative B to accept), first deliveries before 2010, a purchase price nearly identical to the 744 in 2004 dollar terms........

A38 delays / problems, and how these are / are not handled from a customers perspective by A will be a factor.

Misusing an A38 versus operating two aircraft types, the second of which is delivered a few years after the A38, which everyone agrees will be a short-life model extension, is really only capturing the hearts and minds of freight operators, and most of them are picked to convert 744's to ADV standard.

Last gasp effort by B which could go either way, will be determined not so much by the capabilities of the ADV, but by how sweet the deal is when packaged with the rest of the B product range.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 27):
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned operational versatility.

No one mentioned it because most of the places where SQ will use their A380 are ready -or will be at the time of the EIS-.
So it may be an advantage for the B747Adv to have a lot of airports capable of handling it, but a capacity of 450+ pax won't be needed for smaller airports anyway (CPH, YVR, ...).

So almost every place where there is a need for the A380 or the B747Adv, they can operate both of them.
 
777ER
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:22 am

the A380 has an edge as they would be additions to an existing fleet. The current 744 are on the way out if I am not mistaken and 747Adv would be a new type with all that entails The A380 hasn't even been delivered yet, so its not a current fleet member. B744 is a current fleet member
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N79969
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:30 am

777ER,

Notice the verb tense indicates future/potential form. Do you not have something more substantive to comment on?
 
intothinair
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
There is no way that SQ is going to downgauge SQ025/SQ026 to the B777-300ER because between SIN and FRA it is often full with good yields. It also makes no sense to upgauge SQ325/SQ326 to the WhaleJet because they are more difficult to fill. They could do it they other way around, but then they would need to either drop the JFK tag, upgauge it to a WhaleJet, or leave a B777-300ER (and the connecting passengers) sitting around FRA

Interesting point.
Though, up to 2009, my guess would be that SQ would use the A388 on the SIN-FRA-JFK as you mentioned, and the 747-400 on the SQ325 route. That would add about 120 seats per day up to 2009.
Then as the last 747-400 gets replaced, if SQ orders the 747ADV, I'd expect SQ to use it to replace the 747-400 rout as SQ325/6 to FRA.
Though a 777-300ER might do the job as well since one 747ADV and one A388 would add roughly 180 more seats, which could be quite a lot, though the 747ADV and A380 mix seems more realistic.
Last thought that came to mind was from 2009 to use 2 daily 747ADV though in one of the "treffpunkt Airport" magazines, I've read that most likely from 2007, SQ will use the A388 to FRA, most probably once daily.
So, for me the most likely is, from 2009, A388 once, and 747ADV once, and from 2007-2009 A388 once, and 747-400 once.

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
jacobin777
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:05 am

Boeing never said the 747ADV will sell a 1000 units...but only a few hundred...that being said, I think they will definitely launch it........I think there are more than enough customers wanting it, and I think if it does well...we can even possibly see BA purchase it for their 747 fleet renewal. I do believe that if Boeing does not go with the 747ADV, then BA will eventually go with the A380......

I see few cargo carriers, as well as CX going for the 747ADV...SQ...thats a tough one for now..
"Up the Irons!"
 
lehpron
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Flight International reports in their current issue that SIA wants to order more aircraft for the top end of their fleet - more A380s -or 747 Advanced

Unless they add the order to their current with Airbus, wouldn't newer orders take longer to deliver? It may end up that purchasing a new 747Adv will be able to start service earlier.

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Boeings recent presentations have reportedly raised SQs interest in the next generation Jumbo Jet again.

Again, huh? More like, "if you build it (after they have been tempted), they will come (if they still need it)"

Quoting N79969 (Reply 2):
if Boeing manages to create and capture the niche above the existing 747-400 and below the A380, that would seem to short circuit the A380 sales plan. Any thoughts on that?

This is my thought: For those airlines that operate big airplanes and see the future in commercial aviation as Boeing has insisted before regarding super giants like A380, then to them 747Adv would be a good bet, a better one in fact. How far ahead do you think those carriers are planning?

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
The A 380s will be used on ultra high capacity routes.

When that market develops yes, but for now, its market is literally in direct competition with 747Adv for the time being. If Boeing produces another 747 derivative now, each order/option will be a black eye for Airbus. However, once the market for those planes expands, for each of those airlines that purchased another 747 derivative, each order/option will be a black eye for them. It is a test of economics; forecasting demand and; among other things, faith in the market.

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 10):
In the other hand, the B747Adv has a good niche in the market.

A market that exists now as obvious as long as carriers view A380's future in doubt, why purchase a plane you may not need? My beef with this plane, among other things, is its inability to expand beyond 450-pax. If they are simply replacing a current fleet, then that beef has gone bad. Let's say that an airline initially purchases 10 and over time realizes the market the plane was put in keeps expanding beyond those ten aircraft, do they buy more? My issue is that I am not for crowding up an airport at the expense of what carriers/manufactures insist people want. There is always more than one solution to a problem.

[Edited 2005-06-12 05:11:13]
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
B787
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:55 am

The 747A simply makes sense for airlines like SQ. I'm not experienced in flight operations but it seems to me that the A380, although absolutely brilliant in concept and application, is pioneering a niche in the market e.g. ultra high capacity sectors. There is definitely a market for this and it will grow, it will just take time.

In the mean time the 747A will provide a much needed option in the 400+ seats area (plus as a freighter). I expect existing 747 operators like SQ, QF, BA, JL, NH, AF, CX and LH to be very interested in the 747A. I also suspect that some other non-747 operators like CO, EK, 9W and QR might be candidates, now or in the next 5-10 years.

I hope Boeing launches the 747A and the airlines embrace it. Competition is needed here. It keeps Boeing, Airbus and the smaller manufacturers on their toes. The airlines also need to appreciate that it is in their best interest that they support competition.

It will be interesting to see what SQ do. Boeing will be fighting hard to win and Airbus just as hard to stop them. Both will offer 'deals' with 787s or A350s, but I suspect SQ may just be milking them both for the future.

As for existing fleet influencing their decision either way, I wouldn't bet any money on this. SQ dispose of their aircraft early and regulary and they've demonstrated in the past they are prepared to switch from one type to another if the numbers are right.

I bet the hands of Airbus and Boeing execs are sweating...  Wink
 
Rj111
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
There is no way that SQ is going to downgauge SQ025/SQ026 to the B777-300ER because between SIN and FRA it is often full with good yields. It also makes no sense to upgauge SQ325/SQ326 to the WhaleJet because they are more difficult to fill.

That suprises me as SQ025/SQ026 leaves FRA at 10 to midnight and arrives at SIN at 6:30am. Depends if you're good at sleeping on flights i guess. I'm not, and I'd go for the one that leaves at 2pm and arrives at 8:45pm myself.

Either way, makes a lot more sense than operating 3 lights. Big grin
 
zvezda
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:05 pm

RJ111, SQ325 operates wingtip-to-wingtip with LH776. That, more than the timing, is the reason why SQ enjoys higher loads and better yields on SQ025.

I more often fly SQ325 than SQ025 for the reason you gave, plus the connections from VNO are better and I like that the cabin is not so full.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:19 pm

I also heard that SQ is very interested in the B 747 Advanced.

Can anyone post the link regarding this article? Thanks
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:15 pm

I am not sure if SQ wants to use the 747 Advanced on routes to the USA such as SIN-HKG-SFO and SIN-TPE-LAX. These routes generate traffic far larger than what the 747 Advanced can carry and are likely candidates for conversion to the A380-800 from the current 747-400 once SQ gets enough planes.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:38 pm

SIN-TPE-LAX is a B 777-200ER I think. SIN-NRT-LAX is a B 747-400 though.

Which route is busier? SIN-LHR or SIN-HKG-SFO?
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 2):
Which makes me think though...if Boeing manages to create and capture the niche above the existing 747-400 and below the A380, that would seem to short circuit the A380 sales plan. Any thoughts on that?

Wasn't he idea here that the 787 was going to take the market from the A380. What happened to that idea? I guess it never did after-all. Now that the 747A is around no one claims that the 787 is infringing on large plane markets. Isn't that strange?
 
abbs380
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:46 pm

I know I shouldn't ask this, but there is a little devil sitting on my shoulder telling me to do it, so here goes. What if the 747A is NOT launched and the A380 turns out to be the ABMD11. Where does that leave the industry?
 
ikramerica
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:09 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 43):
Wasn't he idea here that the 787 was going to take the market from the A380. What happened to that idea? I guess it never did after-all. Now that the 747A is around no one claims that the 787 is infringing on large plane markets. Isn't that strange?

What a silly statement.

The 747Adv is intended to sell in the 200+ range, to fill a niche market demand for the next 10-15 years, while an all new design is not economically advisable in that same timeframe.

The 787 is in a class that could sell 2000+ over it's lifespan even with direct competition.

It does not preclude the A380 selling 400-500 A/C. But Airbus claims 1000+ A/C in 500+ pax size. And Boeing says "no way." If Boeing did see a market for that many, they would have offered one up. Room for one option, not two, and Airbus was going forward no matter what.

How you get that the 747Adv somehow negates the 787 is an example of wishful thinking, not any reality I'm aware of.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:42 pm

Go to: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050608g.html

Boeing plans to sell 900 airplanes 747-size or larger (approx. 450 airplanes in the 400-500 seats range and approx. 450 airplanes of 500 seats and above)
 
N79969
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:32 pm

Come and Go,

I do not think Boeing ever cast the argument that the 787 would compete against the 380. Actually I am certain. They are two very different aircraft.

However Boeing and Airbus had different views of the future market trends and placed bets accordingly. Boeing bet on more fragmentation while Airbus argued that growth between hubs required a plane larger than a 747.

I do not think Boeing has ever denied that there was demand for an A380 size airplane. Rather they have argued that the demand was not sufficient in the near term to justify the costs of developing 1 VLA let alone 2 competing types.

The question I raised and that you and Lehpron responded to is about the niche between the 747-400 (the existing airplane) and the A380. My recollection is that Airbus assumed that the 747-400 would not be redesigned in any meaningful way thus giving Airbus a monopoly in the market for airplanes larger than today's 747-400. However if Boeing does enter with a new, measurably larger and more capable 747, then Airbus's assumption will not hold and thus short-circuiting their business plan.

However I am not certain how about recollection. What did Airbus assume Boeing would do with the B747?
 
United Airline
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:50 pm

Boeing can dominate the B 747 Advanced size market while Airbus can have the A 380 size market.
 
Rj111
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RE: SIA Wants More A380s - Or 747 Advanced

Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 46):
Boeing plans to sell 900 airplanes 747-size or larger (approx. 450 airplanes in the 400-500 seats range and approx. 450 airplanes of 500 seats and above)

Boeing say there is a market for 900 planes, not that they're going to get every one, they've already missed 150. They actaully suggest they could get 450.

"approx. 450 airplanes in the 400-500 seats range and approx. 450 airplanes of 500 seats and above"

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