c172
Posts: 101
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Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:42 am

To calm all you a-netters down who think the 787 is going to be fitted with regular size windows, I provide this link.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050613h.html

Artist renditions are exactly that... artistic interpretations! Don't get too excited when you see a drawing.

Now, if you will let me editorialize, the 787 will ultimately take the wind out of the A380s sails. Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth.
 
kl911
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting C172 (Thread starter):
Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth.

They already had..... The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...


KL911
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
They already had..... The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...

But will it have the numbers and last as long as the 747 line? Only time will tell. It definetly has the potential.

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
rlwynn
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...

I have not seen it anywhere but here since the day it first flew. Thats quite a statement you make there.
I can drive faster than you
 
c172
Posts: 101
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 2):
But will it have the numbers and last as long as the 747 line? Only time will tell. It definetly has the potential.

That is the point, exactly. Boeing has sold thousands of 747s. We will have to wait and see if the A380 matches that. My gut feeling is no.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 3):
I have not seen it anywhere but here since the day it first flew. Thats quite a statement you make there.

Well, at least if he had said "today" instead of "everyday" he would be right. Because, yes, today, the A380 was on probably most channels worldwide, even if just for a few seconds.

Quoting C172 (Reply 4):
My gut feeling is no

You mean your hope, right?

ciao
Daniel
 
halls120
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:24 am

I remember my first ever airplane flight - on an AA 747 from LAX to JFK. It was magical to an 18 year old. That said, I avoid 747's these days like the plague, and I will likewise do the same when faced with the possibility of flying on a A380.

I fly 75K-100K miles a year, most of it long haul. The LAST thing I want to do is be up in the air with 400-500 other people, all trying to use the facilities at the same time, and even worse, descending on customs en masse upon arrival. Given the choice, I will opt for a B767 over a B777/A330, and a 777/330 over a B747/A340 any time I can. (I also believe B has it right with their point to point strategy. I look for non-stop flights whenever possible.)

I'm not knocking the A380 - I think it is a magnificent achievement, and I hope A sells many of them. (Even though they are, IMHO, one of the ugliest planes in the air). I likewise encourage everyone to opt for the A380 and the 747ADV when they are both in the air. That way, there will be more room for me on the smaller and eminently more civilized "smaller" aircraft.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
That way, there will be more room for me on the smaller and eminently more civilized "smaller" aircraft.....

Me too.  Smile I'll fly the 747Adv and the 380 once, and then try to never fly them again. Unless of course the experience is so amazing that it wins me over. But an economy seat is an economy seat is an economy seat, no?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:32 am

"He credited the innovative and integrated Product Lifecycle Management (PLM) toolset developed by Paris-based Dassault Systemes with providing a real competitive advantage."

The French are saving Boeing's bacon. This must be pissing off Airbus a little.  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
schipholjfk
Posts: 521
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...

Worldwide? You could not have watched TV in every country. It was not on any U.S. channels especially with all the Michael Jackson verdict. And as far as normal people... most of them have no idea what A380 is. And given the route this aircraft will fly (long haul between selected cities), most "normal" people will never get a chance to fly it. They have a greater chance that they will experience Southwest, JetBlue, Ryanair, Easyjet, SilkAir, etc in their lifetime than an A380 experience!
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:28 pm

How did a thread about 787's windows evolve into a A380/747 cold war? Oh yeah, this happy tid bit:

Quoting C172 (Thread starter):
Now, if you will let me editorialize, the 787 will ultimately take the wind out of the A380s sails. Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth.

Dude, A380 is the first to roll out in a digial age, it will get the first spot light. When 787 rolls out is will get even more ratings (relatively) simply because it will become a symbol of Americanism, again, if anyone cares. 15,000 A.net members against 6 billion people make us less than a percent of a percent of the population.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
They already had..... The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...

have you been the southern west coast of the USA lately? Either it is MJ's trial...well, I don't pay much attention I do know that an airplane rarely shows up. Usualy it is someone killed or oh I rememebr, tornados and midwest weather is news here cuz we normally don't have any. No A380 or 787 talk.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 2):
But will it have the numbers and last as long as the 747 line?

Does it matter? As noted by other members, 747 was a massive capacity increase when it rolled out while A380 isn't much over 747. Considering the numbers of 747's sold, I'd say the ratio would be the inverse of the capacity ratios of both planes as the absolute maximum number of delivered units ever. Will it ever get there, no, it's like an inverse curve going to infinity.

That has got to be the most unrelative and random idea that I could come up with that happens to be completely irrational.  Smile

First there are four versions of 747's, there are 2 versions of A380's planned, so we'll cut the number in half, just like that. Big grin Let's do the math: 400/555 = 720/999. 720/999 * 0.5 = 360/999 = 0.360360360...

Total 747's ever delivered from Boeing's website: 1358
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...lModel=747&ViewReportS=View+Report
1358 * 0.360360 = 489.3.......489 A380's will be delivered, including the stretch and any freighters small or large...doesn't look good! Had we not halved it, 979 A380's. I have always believe they would sell about 800 as an absolute maximum.

ANYWAY, back to topic, I think 787's big windows will be a good touch but for people like me who enjoy scenery but are afraid of heights, a big window will give me the feeling of falling out of my seat. Not that I will stay straped the whole time.  Smile
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
c172
Posts: 101
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:00 pm

Now, if you will let me editorialize, the 787 will ultimately take the wind out of the A380s sails. Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth.

Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth. Planes sold? Media attention? No. That's not the point. With the 747, Boeing brought forth a brand new revolutionary product that changed the face of aviation forever. The A380 won't have the same effect. That's all I'm saying. No math or debate needed. The A380 is a massive airliner, the 747 was the first.

The 787 will not compete head-to-head against the A380. The A380 certainly has some routes that it will be competitive on. It just seems that the trend in aviation is to go smaller farther and in better comfort.

The Airbus behemoth is exactly that, an air bus.
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:19 pm

Quoting C172 (Reply 11):
Airbus will not see the great success Boeing saw when rolling out the biggest airliner on earth.

China, India and Egypt had great civilizations before Christianity came along, keep that in mind.  Wink

Quoting C172 (Reply 11):
The A380 is a massive airliner, the 747 was the first.

Again, relevancy? You sound as if you are venting out at a small group of Airbus nutcases that sincerely believe A380 will replace 747 in the history books, as if it is a celebrity. It will not, the majority of us know that, are you just reiterating? I certainly hope you do not plan to down play its significance in retaliation to that idiot minority group -- making more enemies isn't good.  Wink

Quoting C172 (Reply 11):
It just seems that the trend in aviation is to go smaller farther and in better comfort.

Dude, do you know what it means to be biased? When something 'seems like' whatever to you, it is limited to what you have seen, think about that. What you are doing with A380 is judging an SUV on a hybrid's theory by comparing it directly to Boeing's core belief of getting smaller and more frequent. The argument you are putting forth does not fly.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
na
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:37 pm

Ikramerica: "Me too. I'll fly the 747Adv and the 380 once, and then try to never fly them again. Unless of course the experience is so amazing that it wins me over. But an economy seat is an economy seat is an economy seat, no?"

No. I had the advantage to take part in A380 seat-tests where state-of-the-art eco-seats were there for comparison. The proposals for the A380 were all considerably better. And what I tested was not Airbus promotion...
If the A380 can deliver on economics, tickets could and eventually will be cheaper on it compared to, lets say, the 777. Then you get the pax, especially if the seats are better, too.

Lets not forget one thing: During the projected production circle of the A380 as well as the 787 we will see the demise of affordable fuel. In 20 years, with the fuel price easily tripled, 5% difference in fuel economics will be decicive, not like today, where airlines can somehow still compete with aircraft 25% less effective than others.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:46 pm

What I meant was being crammed into economy in a big jet is all about the same, though comfort will vary. And as I said, if it is much better, it might win me over.

But also, seats are provided by third parties, right? If an airline wants the same Recaro advanced economy seat on it's A380 and 787, can't they order them?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
glacote
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 10):
Let's do the math: 400/555

This assumption comes from nowhere. Besides you shall take constant seating density and thus consider floor area. The A388 has 50% more space than the B744, at 555m² vs 375m².

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 10):
I think 787's big windows will be a good touch but for people like me who enjoy scenery but are afraid of heights, a big window will give me the feeling of falling out of my seat

Big windows are:
1) heavy (because of the glass itself and the required structural reinforcement around)
2) of little use IMO (you spend 12 out of 15 hours with curtain down) and possibly deprecated by a wider screen showing oustide videos (I prefer see the beneith the aircraft or in front of it rather than perpendicular to it).
3) not so big after all : quite standard after all (but this is a very rough estimate)
 
Toulouse
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...

Very true, as I live in Toulouse, when I've travelled abroad recently and mentioned I live in Toulouse to just about anybody, I've been amazed that just about everyone has said... Wow, that's where Airbus is, I saw their new plane (some say 380, others just the jiant Airbus). Also while descending from an EI Airbus 320 on a remote stand at MAD a few weeks ago, onc on the bus I was amazed to see a mother say to her child, "look, we've been on an Airbus plane, the makers of the biggest airliner ever... do you remember seeing it on TV?"... To which the child responds "Yeah, wow, I can't wait to fly on one!". So I think Airbus has gained incredible public knowledge recently withthe launch of the 380.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
ckfred
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:36 pm

KL911:

I heard on CNBC a very good reason not to fly the A380. Six hundred people all trying to pull their wheeled bags out of the overheads upon arrival.
 
deltaguy767
Posts: 639
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:50 am

A coiple points I would like to make.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
They already had..... The A380 is on every channel worldwide everyday...
I'm sure even 'normal' passengers are waiting to fly it...

Yes but couldn't you make the argument that the 787 would be paraded as much as the A-380 at least in the US?

Quoting C172 (Thread starter):
Now, if you will let me editorialize, the 787 will ultimately take the wind out of the A380s sails.

Oh no another A vs. B battle

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
KL911:
I heard on CNBC a very good reason not to fly the A380. Six hundred people all trying to pull their wheeled bags out of the overheads upon arrival.

I couldn't agree with you more

Greetings from little BDL and BAF
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 16):
So I think Airbus has gained incredible public knowledge recently withthe launch of the 380.

In Europe...

But in the USA, Boeing has the same response, more or less...

Touche


fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
viscount630
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:37 am

OMG - WHY are the B vs A brigade comparing the A380 to the 787....?????? They're two totally DIFFERENT aircraft designed for totally DIFFERENT markets!  banghead  Even 787 vs A350 is a tenuous comparison.

For crying out loud - put your Uncle Sam suits away and enjoy the fascinating differences that the varied airline/aerospace industry that we all CLAIM to have an interest in, provides, and stop taking cheap shots at each other in the name of some pointless "competition". Anyone would think that Boeing and Airbus take a blind bit of notice as to what anyone on here has to say anyway.......!  duck 

Sheesh!
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:51 am

I don't look for cheaper "basic fares" on either the 380 or 747 (any version). Any savings will be used for fuel, wages & salaries and more capital investments. Lower fares will continue to come from the need to fill empty seats, regardless of the plane, and seasonal fares - like the US to the UK in the winter.

Where the 380 can be attractive to pax is those situations where the airline provides more room and a comfortable seat for the cattle car section - especially for the very long hauls. That can generate pax loyalty, just as sitting in the upper deck of a 747 can generate a desire to continue sitting in the upper deck.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Glacote (Reply 15):
not so big after all

1/4 of a door is pretty big. 21".

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):

agreed. and once again, just like the 747, people will "know" what they are flying, much more than on a 767,777,A330,A340, etc.

but as for saving money on fares, that is never the goal of an airline. the goal is to make as much profit as possible. if this jet gives them better economics, inspires people to fly with them, and they can charge the same for a seat (or more...) then it is a win for them.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Thunderbird1
Posts: 223
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:47 am

I hope the 787 retains the big windows, but I'm more concerned about Boeing scrapping the cool streamlined (TGV-looking) nose.
 
c172
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 12):
Again, relevancy? You sound as if you are venting out at a small group of Airbus nutcases that sincerely believe A380 will replace 747 in the history books, as if it is a celebrity. It will not, the majority of us know that, are you just reiterating? I certainly hope you do not plan to down play its significance in retaliation to that idiot minority group -- making more enemies isn't good.



Quoting Lehpron (Reply 12):
Dude, do you know what it means to be biased? When something 'seems like' whatever to you, it is limited to what you have seen, think about that. What you are doing with A380 is judging an SUV on a hybrid's theory by comparing it directly to Boeing's core belief of getting smaller and more frequent. The argument you are putting forth does not fly.

I'm not venting or arguing. Just discussing. Just my opinions. My opinion is that you're taking this a little too serious.
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
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RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:06 am

What really cracks me up is that in these A v B debates, all sorts get thrown around- nationalism, technology and marketing strategy. Some of the stuff is good, some bad and some... well.. I won't go there. Quite simply there will be a market for both planes. Parts of the world, with dominant cities that have huge proportions of a nation's population- like Tokyo, Bangkok and even Sydney- will favour the A380 for growth. One can't forget that some airports are very slot constricted, so the only way to grow is to make the planes bigger. Likewise, many key international routes, like LA to Sydney have limited times that economically viable and appealing departures can take place due to time differences between origin and destination. Again the best way to grow is to increase plane sie.

The US market, with a large affluent population spread more evenly through out the country, will favour point to point style operations. The 787 sized aircraft from both A & B will will also play a role in serving hub to point services- one just has to look at Emirates strategy of serving smaller destinations to the DXB hub.

Good luck to both of them!


So, getting back on topic, the main concern I have about the 787 windows is the ability of the crew to darken them. I fly hundreds of thousands of miles in a year and exposure to sunlight helps the body redjust to the time zone changes. I'd hate to lose this individual control of the window. Will indviduals be able to control their own windows?
 
N867BX
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:19 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 9):
And as far as normal people... most of them have no idea what A380 is

All you a.netters are not normal!!
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:11 am

The A380 may have twice the passengers and twice the roll-on baggage of the 787, but it also has twice as many aisles and twice as many exits. Is it really any worse to disembark from an A380, than to disembark from one of two 787's arriving simultaneously at adjacent gates? I suspect not.
 
c172
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:15 am

787 windows will be "50% bigger than the competition". That will make for a large window. As far as window darkening goes, individual control will be maintained.
 
Boogyjay
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:01 am

We're finally back to topic  tongue 

Quoting C172 (Reply 28):
As far as window darkening goes, individual control will be maintained.

I thought they were going for an electronic glass -a la Mayback roof  Wink- which can be darkened remotely by the crew. Is this feature gone?
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting C172 (Reply 4):
Boeing has sold thousands of 747s.

Actually, they haven't. 1358 is not thousands.

Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
flyAUA
Posts: 4287
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:57 am

Cool... Larger windows are great Big grin

I think most airliners are headed this way now. The 787, 350, etc... Just not sure if it's economical. It contradicts the idea of making lighter aircraft. As some have already mentioned, larger windows=heavier aircraft. Plus, many airlines will force you to close your window during the flight (something I actually feel is a shame) so again, all a waste of money on both airbus' and boeing's side.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
I heard on CNBC a very good reason not to fly the A380. Six hundred people all trying to pull their wheeled bags out of the overheads upon arrival.

Better to pull your wheeled bags with 600 (which is not a correct figure by the way 500-550 is more accurate) other passengers in an aircraft with wider aisles than with 450 others through narrower aisles and less doors to disembark from.

Quoting C172 (Reply 11):
The A380 is a massive airliner, the 747 was the first.

Erm... the 747 was the first massive airliner. The 380 is the first full 2-deck airliner. Period!

Quoting C172 (Reply 11):
The 787 will not compete head-to-head against the A380

I sure hope it won't. The A380 was not designed to compete with the B787, nor the B747, nor the B777. You need to get your facts straight! The A380 has NO competition and will have a monopoly for a market which is not so massive yet but will grow and gain momentum soon.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 18):
Yes but couldn't you make the argument that the 787 would be paraded as much as the A-380 at least in the US?

The B787 gets paraded here too Big grin

I think it would be foolish to assume that the A380, A350 or B787 don't deserve to be paraded on either side of the lake. They are all amazing technological advances and it's about time that these kinds of stories are covered better by the media. And since I try not to be biased, I will add that I honestly can't wait to see all 3 of them flying  Smile
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
c172
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Boeing Comment On 787 Windows

Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 31):
I sure hope it won't. The A380 was not designed to compete with the B787, nor the B747, nor the B777. You need to get your facts straight!

And here's what I said: The 787 will not compete head-to-head against the A380.

The facts are straight.