columba
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:24 pm

German news station n-tv reported that Boeing had announced the launch of the 747 Adv. in Le Bourget.

Any ideas for a launch customer :
BA, CX ?

[Edited 2005-06-14 10:43:16]

[Edited 2005-06-14 10:54:58]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
777ER
Crew
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:41 pm

The legacy of the B747 lives on  Smile Will be interesting to see which airline becomes the launch customer
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trent900
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:43 pm

If this is true (not seen the news yet) this is good for both A and B. At least the airlines can now stop waiting around and order an aircraft best suited to their needs. IMO the 380 has much more potential.

D.
 
AeroWesty
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:45 pm

International Homo of Mystery
 
BestWestern
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:46 pm

Untrue. Boeing will consider launching the 747A at next months board meeting.
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LifelinerOne
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:49 pm

The B747 Advanced is not officially launched. The board will decide on the project at the end of this month.

Maybe we need to change the topic title??

Cheers!  wave 
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na
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Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:58 pm

Signs are good. Better than ever.
Even if "747 Advanced announces launch" is not true unfortunately, unless you take the words of the head of Boeing Italy for real: "Boeing will launch, Boeing has decided".
Unfortunately another Boeing executive contradicts it. But this is the strongest signs yet that the decision might be just a formality.
Thanks for posting the Reuters-link.
 
aeropiggot
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:21 am

This topic is misleading, the 747Adv has not been launch. Boeing board will only launch a new/derivative model, when they have enough orders to justify the expenditure of company resources. Remember guys the taxpayers do not subsidize the launch of Boeing products.
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
schipholjfk
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 2):
IMO the 380 has much more potential.

Can you be more detailed and explain why you think so? Thank you.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
airways
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:08 am

Alen Mulally today said that they are in talks with customers about the purchase of new 747s. Mainly freighters but also pax versions. He didn't tell whether these planes are 744s or 747adv.

Furthermore, he said that they were planning to announce the closure of the 747 production later this year, but do to strong interestest, they are keeping it open. The same goes for the 767 line. This line will stay open too.

The 747adv is being discussed at the moment. Nothing new so far, they intend to use the 787 engines and some other 787 technology. A project group is currently working on that, but nothing has been decided yet.

I saw the N-TV people at the press conference. I think they did an interview afther the presentation.

Regards from Paris,
Michael
 
BestWestern
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting NA (Reply 6):
head of Boeing Italy for real

As if he knows whats going on.

Quoting Airways (Reply 9):
Alen Mulally today said that they are in talks with customers about the purchase of new 747s. Mainly freighters but also pax versions. He didn't tell whether these planes are 744s or 747adv.

He was on Bloomberg yesterday - and basically said the same thing, but discussed the 747A more - seems like more interest coming from Freight. He was very fluffy about it.

Quoting Airways (Reply 9):
Furthermore, he said that they were planning to announce the closure of the 747 production later this year

First ever mention of this. Are you sure he said this?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
trent900
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 8):
Can you be more detailed and explain why you think so? Thank you.

The 747 Adv would be a great aircraft for current 747 operators that do not need much more extra capacity. The 380 on the other hand has been designed to be extended if need be and with a larger floor area airlines have greater freedom on how to make passengers feel more comfortable. Even Singapore Airlines have said they would rather 'miss-use' a 380 on routes it wasn't really designed for.

D.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 11):
The 747 Adv would be a great aircraft for current 747 operators that do not need much more extra capacity

The issue is not so much capacity (the 744 is already an enormously flexible aircraft) as economy.

Current capacity for the 744 is at a useful market point. What would sell the aircraft is a significant change downward in fuel burn and ZFW/space ratio, and with the Trent 1000 and GENx coming on line too then it starts to look like a desirable product again.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 747-800 carrying the torch into the next decade or two (my little crystal ball prediction for the new aircraft, the 748!)
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
KennyK
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:25 am

Are Boeing further along the path of launching a new 747 or are we going over the same ground again when Boeing was going to 'launch' 747 derivatives in the past?
 
avek00
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 11):
a larger floor area airlines have greater freedom on how to make passengers feel more comfortable.

The weight of cabin furnishings is posing a MAJOR problem for the A380, and airlines will be lucky to install EXISTING longhaul premium products into the plane as it is.
Live life to the fullest.
 
scotron11
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 10):

First ever mention of this. Are you sure he said this?

He said it last week, in so many words. If they don't get some serious orders for the current 744/767, then they will decide next month to shut the lines down.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 8):
Quoting Trent900 (Reply 2):
IMO the 380 has much more potential.

Can you be more detailed and explain why you think so? Thank you.

His username is Trent900. He doesn't need another reason  Wink

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised to see the 747-800 carrying the torch into the next decade or two (my little crystal ball prediction for the new aircraft, the 748!)

That's my prediction as well. It continues this obsession with putting 8s into model numbers, but it also indicates that the aircraft has a range of ~8000nm.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting KennyK (Reply 13):
Are Boeing further along the path of launching a new 747 or are we going over the same ground again when Boeing was going to 'launch' 747 derivatives in the past?

Much much further along than other stillborn concepts of the 1995-2001 timespan. The -400XQLR would run second place, but even that was never really close to launch. A good deal of -400XQLR design work will go into the Adv, especially noise reducing features (cheverons, flap tweaks) and aerodynamic improvements (wingtip).

Quoting Airways (Reply 9):
Alen Mulally today said that they are in talks with customers about the purchase of new 747s. Mainly freighters but also pax versions. He didn't tell whether these planes are 744s or 747adv.

Furthermore, he said that they were planning to announce the closure of the 747 production later this year, but do to strong interestest, they are keeping it open. The same goes for the 767 line. This line will stay open too.

Alan Mulally was also quoted to say the Adv has a "very, very good chance of proceeding." If the Adv will enter service at the end of 2008, Boeing will have to switch to Adv production by atleast mid-2007. That's only another 18-24 months of 744 backlog, and at the rate they are being produced (slowly), that's only one or two 744 orders from being secure.

It isn't an impossible task for Boeing to bridge production of these two aircraft nor a necessity to give them away at cost.
 
CXYYZ
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 7):
Boeing board will only launch a new/derivative model, when they have enough orders to justify the expenditure of company resources

That statement has an inherent chicken/egg problem to it.

Boeing's board will only give final approval once there are enough orders, but they will give approval to sell (or however they word it) before that.
 
yul332LX
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:50 am

747 Advanced launch slips

Boeing has pushed back its planned launch of the Boeing 747 Advanced from its previous mid-year target by several months, but remains confident that it will secure airline backing for the stretched aircraft.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...042/747+Advanced+launch+slips.html
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Aither
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:14 am

Who want to bet the launch customers will be the Japanese ?
Never trust the obvious
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Who want to bet the launch customers will be the Japanese ?

Not me.

Stong indications are CX will be the first launch customer, with response in the Japanese markets rated to be lukewarm at best. NH have largely picked the 773ER/787 as the backbone of their future fleet, and JL isn't in a hurry to "trade-up" anytime soon.

They could come around in time, but not by the July-August launch that some sources indicate.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
NH have largely picked the 773ER/787 as the backbone of their future fleet,

And they have been making noises about adding a lot of 773ERs to replace their larger widebodies.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
jumbojet
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 2):
IMO the 380 has much more potential.

how so? The 380 has limited potential due to its size and airport capabilities. Boeing, with no doubt tons of research, believes they can fill a lucrative market for the 747A which fits the needs of more airlines then the A380 ever will. Of course, I dont have a crystal ball, and only time will tell.
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:40 am

Even if not totally true yet. . .it will be. . .good news for airliner lovers around the world.

Airbus better start seriously considering coming out with the shortened version of the A380, or else Boeing will have that segment all to themselves.
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boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 24):
Airbus better start seriously considering coming out with the shortened version of the A380, or else Boeing will have that segment all to themselves.

I dont see why Airbus has too... look, this is small piece of the pie when it comes to aircraft as a whole. Airbus created a new segment with the intro of the A380 and i think they will be content serving that segment.

A380 and 747 serve two different segments.. one is large and the other is Xtra-large.. You may actually see a 747Adv and a A380 in the same colors. They complement each other...I think...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 25):
I dont see why Airbus has too... look, this is small piece of the pie when it comes to aircraft as a whole. Airbus created a new segment with the intro of the A380 and i think they will be content serving that segment.

A380 and 747 serve two different segments.. one is large and the other is Xtra-large.. You may actually see a 747Adv and a A380 in the same colors. They complement each other...I think...

I agree completely. But I do think Boeing will sell more 747advs than Airbus will sell A380s, unless they shrink the Airbus giant. And, no, they don't have to, but business is business. If they think they can make money by doing it, they will. Boeing simply didn't think it was a wise investmnet to build a competitor to the A380, but that doesn't mean that Airbus will shy away from building a competitor to the 747adv.

Same colors for both a/c? Yeah, I agree.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 24):
Airbus better start seriously considering coming out with the shortened version of the A380, or else Boeing will have that segment all to themselves.

I doubt that is possible:

#1. Weight- the A388 is built with growth variants in mind. One of the reasons the A388 is a bit heavy is that it's built with a wing big enough to lift a A389 stretch as well. In this way, the economics of an A388 shrink would be simmilar to the A318/736 shrinks.

#2. Flexibility- an A388 shrink would likely have the same wing if it were ever to be built on a reasonable budget. The advantage of a smaller airplane is the ability to serve a more flexible array of destinations, not possible if the smaller airplane requires the same specialized taxiway modifications.

#3. Cargo- underhold, the A388 is only as long and wide as other widebodies on the market. A 773ER has more LD3 capacity, and the A388 edges the 747-Adv out by two containers. Shrink the A388 by 2-3 meters and the 787 practically has more underfloor volume.

Among other reasons, it isn't feasable to shrink the A388 without major rework. While there was an A3XX-50 shrink pre-industrial launch, I havn't even seen the moniker A380-700 on anything offical since product launch.
 
freedom4all
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:33 pm

Please change the topic title. I thought they launched it!!! Still that article seems like good news, I would say that it is pretty much certain that it will be launched. the sooner the better I say, I can't wait to see that baby in the air...LONG LIVE THE 747!!!!!  Big grin  airplane 
long live the 747!
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:46 pm

I still believe that Boeing will go with the 747A and Airbus will not shrink the 380 for a long time. Shrinking the 380 looked like a good idea when it looked like the 744 would close out the line soon - the economies of a smaller 380 would not be as critical.

Now Airbus is in a position of finishing up the 380 program that is over budget, developing the 350 that was not anticipated and continues to get more complicated as well as doing initial work on a 32X as insurance in case Boeing comes out with a 73E before it is anticipated. At the same time their customers may start calling for the entire 330 line to be shifted to 350 technologies before Airbus wants that to happen. Then throw in the M400 to keep the engineers busy.

It's in Airbus' interests to let Boeing play with the 747 without playing in that game. They have enough on their plate.
 
cloudy
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:59 pm

That statement has an inherent chicken/egg problem to it.

Boeing's board will only give final approval once there are enough orders, but they will give approval to sell (or however they word it) before that.
-----
That is what launch customers are for.

Launch customers agree to buy the plane if it is actually built. If the plane doesn't get built, their deposits are returned and the manufacturer pays contractual penalties. If the plane is built as specified and the airline cannot take the plane, the airline incurs contractual penalties. If the plane is built but falls short of specifications or is delivered late, the manufacturers pay contractual penalties. A launch customer stakes a great deal of his business plan on the availablity of a new plane. Usually, they get large discounts for taking this risk and they also get a major voice in the plane's design.

The company can solicit formal commitments from launch customers when they get authority to offer from the board. Authority to offer is not to be confused with program launch. Program launch happens when the company has enough orders from launch customers to formally launch the program. Some work on the plane is done before launch, but usually it is nothing really big. The really expensive design and production work can start only after program launch.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 24):
Airbus better start seriously considering coming out with the shortened version of the A380, or else Boeing will have that segment all to themselves.

Why? Even Boeing says that this segment is not that big - forecasting a market for 400 planes I believe. When you think about it, it would make it very tough on Airbus to shrink their A380 and sell enough of them to manage to break even on the costs of doing so. Hell its hard enough for them to break even when they have the market to themselves.

Quoting DIA (Reply 26):
But I do think Boeing will sell more 747advs than Airbus will sell A380s

Well again - Boeing has forecasted a pretty shallow market but on the other hand they also say the VLA market in which the A380 is destined for is shallow also (and most of the conjecture is that Airbus believe it is bigger than Boeing do).

Quoting DIA (Reply 26):
unless they shrink the Airbus giant

On a cost basis its completely non-viable. It would simply cost too much money per seat to shrink it (i.e. the same wasy the 747SP was done). The money for Airbus if anything will be in extending the A380 to the -900 model which would be looking at another 100 or so seats. This would reduce the seat mile costs and create a lot of interest within the airlines along with the 747 Advanced.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:33 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 31):
Why? Even Boeing says that this segment is not that big - forecasting a market for 400 planes I believe. When you think about it, it would make it very tough on Airbus to shrink their A380 and sell enough of them to manage to break even on the costs of doing so. Hell its hard enough for them to break even when they have the market to themselves.

I wonder whether Airbus will build a family that spans the 350-500 pax range if the A346 continues to lose against the 773ER, or whether they will try to stretch the A350 into the 350 seat market.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 32):
I wonder whether Airbus will build a family that spans the 350-500 pax range if the A346 continues to lose against the 773ER, or whether they will try to stretch the A350 into the 350 seat market.

Yeah I'm not too sure either - but the truth is that the A346 and 77W are just no comparison at all. The 77W economics and operations just kill the A346 and the only reason we see so many flying around is due to price and availability. Airbus might try a stretch of the A350 as might Boeing of the 787 but I think an A350-10 would not be terribly competitive with the 77W.

I think the market holds more aircraft in the 300-400 seat range, but pretty sure as well that Boeing will tap the 400-500 seat market and possibly be the only ones to do it.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 33):
Airbus might try a stretch of the A350 as might Boeing of the 787 but I think an A350-10 would not be terribly competitive with the 77W.

A further stretch of the A350 is likely going to need much more thrust than the current GEnx and Trent1000 engines will provide.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 34):
A further stretch of the A350 is likely going to need much more thrust than the current GEnx and Trent1000 engines will provide.

Yeah, I mean if you take the 77W it has a massive 115k lbs turbofan on it. For the A350 to be competitive it would need a thrust rating similar (maybe 100k lbs) which would almost require the wing to be completely re-designed from the already existing design in progress.

More likely for Airbus to design another new plane - which will not happen.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
jush
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 7):
Remember guys the taxpayers do not subsidize the launch of Boeing products.

LOL yeah
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:25 pm

If/when Boeing's 747Adv is launched, what will it be called? 745X and 746X were taken, I suppose the 747Stretch could have bee the 747-700 and the 747X from recently could have been the 747-800. Would this last 747Adv be called 747-900, signifying the absolute end of the series?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:30 pm

Lehpron,

I am guessing 747-800...

Both Airbus and Boeing are obsessed with 8's because they are a lucky Chinese number (i.e. orders from China).

Who knows what complex mathematical formula they use to come up with model numbers nowadays... go back to the old system IMO!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
trent900
Posts: 499
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:21 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 16):
His username is Trent900. He doesn't need another reason

You guys are quick today  wink  I do like to be optimistic for both side though.

D.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:50 pm

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 7):
Remember guys the taxpayers do not subsidize the launch of Boeing products.

Always the old comment. And here is mine: Better subsidiying civil planes than wars.
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
AlanUK
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:28 pm

BBC News seems to believe Boeing will launch its 747A:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/default.stm

Click on the "Fighting back: Boeing take on Airbus at the Paris Air Show" video link on the right hand side...

Alan.
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 31):
Well again - Boeing has forecasted a pretty shallow market but on the other hand they also say the VLA market in which the A380 is destined for is shallow also (and most of the conjecture is that Airbus believe it is bigger than Boeing do).

Of course they did! They don't want to give out figures that would attract too much attention from Airbus! I'd say there is no market for the darn thing, then build it and watch the orders flood in. . . . . .all those airlines with the need of a 744 with a bit extra capacity and updated everything, including seat per mile costs! That is a winner. . .of course Boeing is going to downplay it's own potential. They know Airbus could throw in a challenger anytime they want.

Smart on Boeing's part. Period.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
They know Airbus could throw in a challenger anytime they want.

That's not true. It doesn't appear that there is a good path for Airbus to build a direct 744 and 747Adv challenger by creating a derivative of an existing model. A A387 would be rather heavy, and the A346 is stretched pretty far as it is. They would probably have to come up with a new wing for an existing model or with a new aircraft. With their attention focussed on the A380 and A350, that would be difficult.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
Of course they did! They don't want to give out figures that would attract too much attention from Airbus! I'd say there is no market for the darn thing, then build it and watch the orders flood in

I take issue with that for one reason - Airbus completes the same studies as do many independant bodies so they would very quickly see through Boeing's analysis once they began comparing. After all why did Airbus go ahead with the A380 when Boeing said there wasn't a market for it?

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
of course Boeing is going to downplay it's own potential

Not when they have shareholders which rely on the accurate information shared by the company.

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
They know Airbus could throw in a challenger anytime they want.

I agree with Atmx2000, Airbus probably couldn't because they would need to enter into another research intensive program which they don't have the resources for.

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
Smart on Boeing's part. Period.

What is period?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 41):
BBC News seems to believe Boeing will launch its 747A:

Who do you think told the BBC?

For a $2-3b project, there are 3 pre-requisites before you make a public launch - risk sharing partner/s, funding, 2-3 launch customers. 1 out 3 does not = launch.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 35):
Yeah, I mean if you take the 77W it has a massive 115k lbs turbofan on it. For the A350 to be competitive it would need a thrust rating similar (maybe 100k lbs) which would almost require the wing to be completely re-designed from the already existing design in progress.

More likely for Airbus to design another new plane - which will not happen.

Airbus were having a tough time selling the A340-600 against the B777-300ER even before Airbus drove an A350 through the heart of their "4 engines 4 long haul" mantra. I have little doubt that Airbus will eventually have to stretch the A350 to replace the A340-600, however, that will require a new wing and it may be a while before we see GEnx or Trent1000 engines producing sufficient thrust. Forget the GE90 -- the SFC is too high.

Airbus really has three options:
1) Rewing and stretch the A350 to 75 to 80 meters,
2) Abandon not just the 400-500 seat market to Boeing but the 350-500 seat market, or
3) Develop an all-new airliner with a single deck and 10 abreast seating.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 43):
It doesn't appear that there is a good path for Airbus to build a direct 744 and 747Adv challenger by creating a derivative of an existing model. A A387 would be rather heavy, and the A346 is stretched pretty far as it is. They would probably have to come up with a new wing for an existing model or with a new aircraft. With their attention focussed on the A380 and A350, that would be difficult.

Even with a new, smaller wing, a WhaleJet foreshortened to 400 seats would still be too heavy.
 
PyxisNautica
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 44):
After all why did Airbus go ahead with the A380 when Boeing said there wasn't a market for it?

An excellent question.

I think Airbus has had the A380 in the works for far longer than most seem to realize. The whole project has always struck me as less of a press for market advantage than an act of national(ist) redemption with its roots firmly planted in the European psyche after it became apparent that American “efficiency” had won out over Anglo-French “speed” (viz the whole Concorde vs Jumbo argument) in the late-mid 1970s. And so what could be better than a jumbo “Jumbo”? Who needs “study” to tell you that, eh?
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:09 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 44):
Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
Of course they did! They don't want to give out figures that would attract too much attention from Airbus! I'd say there is no market for the darn thing, then build it and watch the orders flood in

I take issue with that for one reason - Airbus completes the same studies as do many independant bodies so they would very quickly see through Boeing's analysis once they began comparing. After all why did Airbus go ahead with the A380 when Boeing said there wasn't a market for it?

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
of course Boeing is going to downplay it's own potential

Not when they have shareholders which rely on the accurate information shared by the company.

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
They know Airbus could throw in a challenger anytime they want.

I agree with Atmx2000, Airbus probably couldn't because they would need to enter into another research intensive program which they don't have the resources for.

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
Smart on Boeing's part. Period.

What is period?

wow. . .it is much too late at night for me to get into all this. . .


Let's just say this:

1. Boeing is smart.

2. airbus probably won't offer a shortened A380.

3. My word, or opinion, is definately not gospel and can easily be torn apart much like any a.netter's can as well. Just some freethought. . .brainstorming. . .that's all. Period.  duck   wave 
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing Announced Launch Of The 747 Adv. In Le Bourget

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting DIA (Reply 48):
2. airbus probably won't offer a shortened A380.

More to the point, the A380 is designed to be extended in the future not shortened. This is part of the reason why the economics of the 747A are looking so good compared in terms of weight.

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