boeingbus
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Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:36 am

Great news... I guess the Concorde is missed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=awPmOISdH328&refer=top_world_news

Japanese and French companies will develop a new commercial aircraft capable of flying faster than the speed of sound to succeed the disused Concorde supersonic jet, according to a press release by Japan's trade ministry.

[Edited 2005-06-15 03:37:19]
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Pl

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:41 am

Eh.. there's a proposal for a super-sonic transport every other year or so. I'll listen-up once airlines begin planning orders.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:44 am

I remember various European environmental ministers complaining about the Sonicruiser. I wonder if they are going to complain about this fuelsucker.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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ER757
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:48 am

I wish them luck, but unless its operating expenses allow the airlines to offer comparable fares to sub-sonic flights, it would likely meet the same fate as Concorde. Hopefully new materials and technologies will allow this dream to become reality. It would be wonderful.
 
JAM747
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:05 am

Who is the French company that will be involved? I think a supersonic business jet might be more practical.
 
centrair
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:39 am

hahahaha. I will believe it when I see it.

I think that we might see this happen but...by that time, I will be collecting my retirement.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:12 pm

Its a joint research, not a development of a new plane. The term is only for three years. It's probably going to be a decade or two before a practical supersonic commercial jet takes to the air.
 
lehpron
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:10 pm

Well somebody has to research the stuff, we cannot make sonic transports Boeing style, can we?  Yeah sure Someone has to take the risk for laying the ground work, even the tiny pieces. The reason subsonic airplanes flourish the way they do today is because there is a GIANT infrastructure for it in terms of investment in materials and design which creates what we now know as 'proven' and 'practical' technologies.

Get it in your head: More than enough people cared for subsonic aircraft, just because few care for supersonics doesn't mean it cannot work any time soon! I am sick of this cynical pathetic stance, really. With enough money anything can happen fast (to get their money, they have to believe in your product, which means you have to have convincing data, etc).

Without risk and investment there is nothing to go on, modern subsonics have a 60 year base but we got the hang of it 30 years ago, nothing has really changed since then. I don't see the point of bashing the concept and pushing it cynically out to next century.  irked 
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
AlanUK
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:32 pm

The biggest problem remains... Making a supersonic aircraft that doesn't produce a supersonic boom. It is a vital requirement for the next Concorde, and so far, no one knows how we can do it, if we can do it!

Alan
 
Carpethead
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:32 pm

Lehpron,
I understand your frustrations.
Because no government, institution, or business is willing to spend billions or trillions into supersonic research. Most people would prefer to spend only two hours on a plane from Tokyo to New York. But at what cost? Unfortunately, aeronatuical engineering has developed at the most rapid pace when there is competition and conflict (e.g. Cold War & WW2).

Barring an unusual basic research breakthroughs in energy combustion or air flow dynamics, supersonic travel will not or cannot happen in the near future.

Current environment dictates a slow pace, so Japan is now shifting gears to conduct research with the French.
 
Joni
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Pl

Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:10 pm

Wasn't Dassault working on a supersonic bizjet with the Russians just a short while ago?

I do assume this is more bizjet-sized rather than a 100-seater project, which would make precious little sense. Probably a good idea for Dasasult to get its piece of those juicy Japanese aerospace subsidies too.
 
David L
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:09 pm

The technical issues aside, why on earth does a new supersonic aircraft have to provide seats as cheaply as subsonic aircraft? Sure, make them cheaper than Concorde's seats to generate more demand but why wouldn't First and Club travellers want to pay similar prices to get there at Mach 2? BA managed to make a profit with a handful of Concordes.
 
lazyshaun
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:26 pm

I wonder if AF and BA will buy this jet? (if it ever happens...)
Its seems AF got rid of their Concorde's quickly, giving them to musiums and breaking them up etc, but BA seem to have kept a few of theirs at some airports. I think if BA broke up one of their Concorde's at LHR or MAN, there would be public uproar...

Also, which other airlines do you think are interested in supersonic jets?
If they weren't as loud as Concorde, then I wouldn't mind putting a bet on SQ, seeing they once, briefly had a Concorde or two...
I came. I saw. I conquered
 
David L
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:39 pm

Trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific routes would obviously be candidates. Although the boom can't be eliminated yet, its effects can be reduced. I've heard a few sonic booms from high altitude aircraft, including Concorde, and they weren't as loud as the gun that's fired in the centre of Edinburgh at 1 pm every day, or as annoying as my downstairs neighbours.
 
keta
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:45 pm

I always wanted a supersonic plane to be built. Even if this is only research, it's very good news!
Where there's a will, there's a way
 
United Airline
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:59 pm

Would it be faster than the Concorde? Should be a lot more efficient though
 
whitehatter
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm

That report seems short on a couple of important points.

Firstly, why assume it is Airbus? It could just as easily be Dassault. It doesn't include any details either on proposed size for the study and could therefore be the high end bizjet market rather than airliner size.

The article is very vague on several areas. Somehow I also have my doubts about the Japanese being able to manufacture a high-thrust supersonic capable engine as they don't have the experience to the degree of the three biggest engine making nations.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
N79969
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:12 pm

I think this a ploy/method/way for France to ingratiate themselves with Japanese to pave the way for Airbus sales down the road and nothing more. Can I prove this assertion? No I cannot. However it fits the pattern of French's government's willing role as a Airbus de-facto sales agent and of their industrial policy to a tee.

If I were the Japanese government, I would insist on one condition beforehand: that any airplanes that come to existence because of this project be assembled and rolled out in Japan. Let the French firms do the sub-assemblies and fabrication. I would make this demand early in the process.

The French recently muscled Japan out of a huge nuclear fusion project. I think Japan would have some ground to stand on.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...00101&sid=auWmW3IR8c54&refer=japan
 
ORDagent
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 8):
The biggest problem remains... Making a supersonic aircraft that doesn't produce a supersonic boom. It is a vital requirement for the next Concorde, and so far, no one knows how we can do it, if we can do it!

This is absolutely impossible. The sonic boom is created because the air can not get out of the way quickly enough. AFAIK the shape of the wings etc could possibly reduce the effects but never eliminate them.
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:18 am

NASA already managed to reduce the sonic boom by quite a bit already by changing the shape of the nose of the aircraft (it was on the telly, so it's right, ok?  Wink).

Thing is, I think they would have to completely overcome it - so there was no boom. I don't think it's impossible, just that we haven't managed to do it yet.

There is also a BBC article on it.

Gary
 
katekebo
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:32 am

There actually could be a niche market for such aircraft for business travellers who can afford to pay the premium and the time advantage over conventional transport justifies the extra expense. Flying between major financial centers (Tokyo, Paris, London, New Your, Sydney, etc.). The sonic boom is not a big issue if they are routed over oceans or sparcely populated areas, and/or fly high enough. I think it is more important to maintain the take off and landing noise comparable to conventional modern airplanes.
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:38 am

If that is the case why does Concorde no longer fly?
 
cornish
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting Ready4Pushback (Reply 21):
If that is the case why does Concorde no longer fly?

too big a terrorist target amongst other things. If loads of people bought this potential plane and it became the norm rather than exclusive like Concorde then it would be less of a target.

As for the sonic boom - we always used to hear it over Cornwall as it reached the Atlantic and speeded up. Often used to break people's windows and the like...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
katekebo
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:54 am

Ready4Pushback

Several reasons:
1) to noisy (especially during takeoff and landing, also sonic boom can be reduced with modern aerodynamics)
2) inefficient old design (a more efficient and lighter plane can be build using modern aerodynamics, materials and engine technologies)
3) very expensive to maintain due to unique and outdated technologies
4) probably too big for a niche market, at least to some locations
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 22):
too big a terrorist target amongst other things. If loads of people bought this potential plane and it became the norm rather than exclusive like Concorde then it would be less of a target.

Understood, but I think I was trying to say is why didn't Concorde become the norm if the restriction of it flying over the oceans was acceptable (which Katekebo was saying in his original message).

Point taken though - a much more efficient version might do better, but I think they would have to do something about the sonic boom. And what about the design of the wings - it would have to be more efficient at landing speeds as well as up there travelling at mach 5 so they can reduce the noise near airports. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Gary

[Edited 2005-06-15 18:09:44]
 
na
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:09 am

Good luck.
I don´t think it´ll work, though. No way a brandnew supersonic commercial jet won´t still eat considerably more fuel and doesn´t need considerably more maintenance than a modern jet like 777 or A380. Or will this new thing be small like a big business jet and cater only the very rich (which would result in a market not much bigger than Concorde)? To cut travel time in half I wouldn´t even pay 30% more. And I bet the people behind it want at least a 100% premium.
Better invest the money to develop an airplane concept which can fly with alternative fuel. Thats what´s needed past 2020.
 
David L
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 22):
Often used to break people's windows and the like...

There were some Concorde test flights done over the length of the UK in the early 70s and there were reports of broken windows but there were a similar number of reports when a published flight was cancelled at the last minute. Having said that, if you have first-hand knowledge of such incidents I'm not in a position to argue.

Quoting Ready4Pushback (Reply 21):
If that is the case why does Concorde no longer fly?

BAs Concordes were making money. It was rising maintenance costs, especially since Air France wanted to retire theirs, and small fleet sizes that were major contributing factors.
 
GDB
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:57 am

The amount of money being put aside for this paper (or CAD screen) exercise is tiny, compare to how much is required to develop a new conventional aircraft, this is just very basic research.
Japan has long wanted to be involved in a multinational SST, if it is possible to build one that airlines will buy, as a major contractor.
In 1999, we had a bunch of Japanese aerospace people look over one of our Concordes.

EADS have very vague aspirations of one day building a new SST, but tiny numbers of people and money are involved.

The next SST will almost certainly be a SSBJ, mach 1.6, (so not really a true Concorde replacement), either the initial Aerion approach of Mach 0.98 overland, supersonic over water, not too much in the way of show stoppers technology wise, IF they can get a major partner involved.
Maybe then a boom suppressive SSBJ, problem is, they can suppress the boom all they like, does not mean the authorities would instantly allow supercruise overland, not in the US or Europe.

Since what Aerion is proposing could become a 30-40 seat airliner, an opening there for airlines perhaps, 10 or so years from now.

Concorde retirement had nothing to do with 'terrorism', at least not directly threatening the aircraft, but Sept 11 certainly wrecked BA's post relaunch plans, and helped to put intolerable pressure on AF.
Where do these myths come from? The mass media?
 
B2707SST
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting David L (Reply 11):
The technical issues aside, why on earth does a new supersonic aircraft have to provide seats as cheaply as subsonic aircraft? Sure, make them cheaper than Concorde's seats to generate more demand but why wouldn't First and Club travellers want to pay similar prices to get there at Mach 2? BA managed to make a profit with a handful of Concordes.



Quoting Katekebo (Reply 20):
There actually could be a niche market for such aircraft for business travellers who can afford to pay the premium and the time advantage over conventional transport justifies the extra expense.

There is certainly a market for supersonic travel even at exorbitant fares, as Concorde showed. However, when the SSTs were being designed, no one envisioned the kind of scenario that eventually emerged with BA and AF. They enjoyed a monopoly on their supersonic routes and had very low capacity due to the small size of their fleets. Competition between SST operators would certainly drive fares and yields down; most projections assume 15-25% fare surcharges over equivalent subsonic flights.

However, one real airline concern is that an SST fleet would simply divert high-yield passengers away from the subsonics. Since the front cabins generate a highly disproportionate share of revenues and profits for the network carriers, this could endanger the viability of their subsonic operations. We might end up with a more strongly tiered service structure -- premium passengers booked on SSTs with high levels of service, while bargain fliers are herded onto the low-cost, low-service subsonic flights.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:19 am

Sorry to say this, but with all due respect, it is useless to Open a Thread on A topic about something that will take Decades to happen. Remember The time,and Money spent on Launching the Concorde. Now, it is of no commercial use to launch a Concorde succesor, as no airline will target it.
But if the Research is on, I definetly wish GOOD LUCK and  bigthumbsup 
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
airlineaddict
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:00 am

Here's an article with more details. 300 passenger jet that can travel from Tokyo to New York in six hours... Sign me up!



Japan, France to Jointly Develop New Jet By NATALIE OBIKO PEARSON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 32 minutes ago



Japan and France are jointly researching a new supersonic passenger plane to succeed the retired Concorde, but with up to three times as many seats and the potential to fly the Tokyo-to-New York route in six hours, officials and reports said Wednesday.

Defense contractors and engineering companies such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. are expected to split an annual research budget of about 200 million yen ($1.84 million) over the next three years to develop the faster-than-sound plane, Japan's Trade Ministry said in a statement. The agreement was signed at the Paris Air Show Tuesday.

The cooperation opens up the possibility of reducing by half the flight time between New York and Tokyo to six hours on an aircraft with 300 seats — three times the capacity of the Concorde, according to media reports and officials Wednesday.

Amid intensifying global competition for dominance in next-generation planes, "Japan has won itself a major role in the push toward aerospace development," the Mainichi newspaper said in an analysis. But it added that doubts remain whether Japan has the technology to make a supersonic jet commercially viable.

"Japan has taken on both an opportunity and a major risk," it said.

The trade ministry said the two sides will try to resolve the difficulties that plagued the Concorde, including jet-engine noise and high fuel consumption.

Japanese companies slated to participate include Japan Aircraft Development Corp., a non-profit consortium; government's space agency Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd., Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. and Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co. French companies will be European Aeronautic Defence and Space and Safran Group (formerly Snecma-Sagem).

Japan has successfully tested an engine that can theoretically reach speeds of up to mach 5.5, or more than five times the speed of sound, the ministry said.

The French side brings experience from the Concorde, the world's first and only supersonic commercial jet operated by Air France and British Airways, which flew at twice the speed of sound.

"This is truly significant industrial cooperation," Japanese Trade Minister Shoichi Nakagawa said in the statement. "Bringing their respective advantages together ... should lead to the ability to offer highly advanced aircraft and services in the future."

The Concorde first flew in 1969 and became a symbol of French and European industrial acumen. But the planes were retired from commercial service in October 2003, never having recouped the billions of tax dollars invested in them.

The Concorde exploded in flames after takeoff from Charles de Gaulle airport near Paris on July 25, 2000, and slammed into a hotel. The accident, which killed the 109 people on board, presaged an end to the career of the sleek but costly supersonic aircraft.

Japan has been working since 2002 to develop a 250-seater supersonic jet capable of flying at mach 1.6, but the partnership with France would help raise those ambitions, a Japan Aircraft Development Corporation official said.

Officials hope to have the new jet in operation by 2015, flying up to 2.4 times the speed of sound, the Mainichi said.

This week's agreement could also signal closer cooperation with the European airline industry in a country that has long favored working with the Americans.

"To research closely in this area with the Europeans does represent something new," said Yoshio Watanabe, an official with The Society of Japanese Aerospace Companies, which is heading the new initiative on the Japanese side.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:03 am

Maybe a passenger airliner with the entire fuselage decked out with big honking speakers pumping out anti-noise could pass the speed of sound without a sonic boom.  Big grin
 
GDB
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:21 am

Sorry AirlineAddict, but there have been press reports like the one you quoted, for as long as I can remember, change the nations/contractors involved, they nearly all say the same, even ones going back 5, 10, 15 or 20 years.

I know this, in BA Concorde, in 1999, when the Japanese guys were looking around, expecting then to have Concorde in operation to 2006/7, maybe with 'Relife 2' out to 2011-13, even then we expected a gap between Concorde retirement and a true Mach 2 airliner replacement, of 10-20 years, if it happened at all.

The last major effort was the NASA/Boeing HSCT project, axed in late 1998, this serious effort ending basically meant no new SST before 2025, and the whole airline environment has got much, much tougher since then.
Look how successful Boeing were with the Sonic Cruiser, designed to avoid all the pitfalls and challenges of high speed flight, where is that now?
(And Sept 11th did not kill it, too many questioned the whole idea in the period from it's unveiling in March 2001, to 6 months later).
 
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glideslope
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
Japanese and French companies will develop a new commercial aircraft capable of flying faster than the speed of sound to succeed the disused Concorde supersonic jet, according to a press release by Japan's trade ministry.

Ok, Mr. Leahy should be out next week with his PR release. Let's hope he gets it right for once.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:35 am

Will the airplane run into the same obstacles from U.S. environmentalists as Concorde did? Bear in mind what happened to the Boeing SST many years ago. The obstacles became so great that Boeing wasn't even allowed to build two prototypes for pure research work. I fear Japan and France will run into serious obstacles ... unless the U. S. government intervenes to keep relations with Japan from deteriorating.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
David L
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 28):
Competition between SST operators would certainly drive fares and yields down; most projections assume 15-25% fare surcharges over equivalent subsonic flights.

Which is a lot less than the surcharge on Concorde's flights, given that there was no Economy class.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 28):
an SST fleet would simply divert high-yield passengers away from the subsonics

There's such a huge difference in price between Economy and Club that there must be a heck of a lot of people who travel Economy because Club is just a little out of reach.

I still don't see why the seat price would have to match subsonic Economy if the fleet size was somewhere between that of Concorde and that of mainstream aircraft.

I know this is all just dreaming but it's topic I enjoy discussing.  Smile
 
DCrawley
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
The next SST will almost certainly be a SSBJ, mach 1.6, (so not really a true Concorde replacement), either the initial Aerion approach of Mach 0.98 overland, supersonic over water, not too much in the way of show stoppers technology wise, IF they can get a major partner involved.

You have predicted the future my friend!  Wink

The plans for having supersonic business jets were revealed last year by two companies. I remembered reading this in one of my business aviation magazines, so I went and checked it out.

Quote:

Investor group unveils plans for supersonic business jet
Margaret Allen
Staff Writer

An investor group led by Fort Worth billionaire Robert Bass announced Monday it is funding a start-up company to develop what will be the world's first supersonic business jet.

The company, Aerion Corp. based in Reno, Nev., expects by 2011 to be in production of prototypes, along with testing and certification with the Federal Aviation Administration.

Aerion unveiled its plans Monday morning in advance of the general aviation industry's premier trade show, the National Business Aviation Association, which opens its 57th annual meeting Tuesday in Las Vegas..

Key to the SBJ is a special wing technology developed the past two decades. The so-called "natural laminar flow" wing reduces total airframe drag by as much as 20 percent versus a "delta wing" configuration like that used by the supersonic Concorde..

Aircraft engine maker Pratt & Whitney has teamed with Aerion to adapt the latest generation of the proven JT8D engine for the SBJ.

You can read on both of the planes that were annouced here:
The Weekly of Business Aviation STORY

NBAA 2004: Aerion antes up in SSBJ betting

They're estimating price at $100 million.. quite a hefty price tag! I guess when you get to the point where time is money though, every second counts!

Enjoy my links, hope they can be of knowledge!

My thoughts,

-D.K. Crawley
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
Joni
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 17):
The French recently muscled Japan out of a huge nuclear fusion project. I think Japan would have some ground to stand on.

The Cadarache site is supported by the whole EU, as well as Russia and the other ITER partners, except Japan, the US and South Korea.

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 30):
The cooperation opens up the possibility of reducing by half the flight time between New York and Tokyo to six hours on an aircraft with 300 seats

Unless this plane is designed from the start to run on hydrogen, I personally would oppose allowing it to fly at all.
 
airlineaddict
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 32):
Sorry AirlineAddict, but there have been press reports like the one you quoted, for as long as I can remember, change the nations/contractors involved, they nearly all say the same, even ones going back 5, 10, 15 or 20 years.

GDB, Oddly enough, my father actually worked on the project with McDonnell Douglas around 20 years ago. It never hurts to dream.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting David L (Reply 35):
I still don't see why the seat price would have to match subsonic Economy if the fleet size was somewhere between that of Concorde and that of mainstream aircraft.

There WILL be a premium no matter what, as supersonic aircraft will always be more expensive to buy and operate. The 15-25% surcharge figure comes from studies of passenger willingness to pay for greater speed. Much higher surcharges cause demand for faster flights to drop off sharply; much lower and airlines can't recover their costs. A Mach 1.6 SST would be at the bottom end of this range, a Mach 2.4 or 2.7 aircraft at the upper end. The virtue of Mach 2.4 or faster is that this speed allows two daily round-trip transpacific flights.

Concorde showed that with a small fleet, you can charge much higher fares, but no manufacturer or government in their right mind would build an SST with the expectation of selling 14 or even 100 frames. In this respect, Concorde and the TU-144 were some of the most colossal market failures in aviation history. I have little doubt that the Boeing SST would have been a similar flop.

Most estimates for a next-generation SST costing $20+ billion put break-even at 400 aircraft at a bare minimum, more like 500-600. In order to sell this many SSTs, fares cannot be in the five-figure range.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:17 am

I would say that supersonic travel costing more shouldn't be a problem to anyone. After all, you are getting more than if you are taking the 747 across the puddle. You get there so much faster, that's gotta be worth something.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 39):
There WILL be a premium no matter what

My apologies - I thought you were arguing with me!
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
My apologies - I thought you were arguing with me!

Not a problem, always great to see these sorts of threads.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
David L
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 39):
The 15-25% surcharge figure comes from studies of passenger willingness to pay for greater speed

OK, but what's the highest that, say, 10% of passengers would be willing to pay? I'm not disputing those figures, just curious (and not expecting an answer immediately!).
 
FlyMeToTheMoon
Posts: 189
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RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:20 am

Storm in a teacup. With a $1.84 m budget every year for three years they will at most accomplish some meetings and computer drawn artist concepts. The money put forward by the French and Japanese is absolutely puny and will take them really nowhere. But I wish them luck and I hope we will see a new plane gracing the skies soon.

Fly safe.
Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Ready4Pushback (Reply 24):
And what about the design of the wings - it would have to be more efficient at landing speeds as well as up there travelling at mach 5 so they can reduce the noise near airports. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

The two are, unforunately, mutually exclusive. The wing of Concorde was the best compromise that they could do at the time, and from what I've read, is still pretty much the best compromise that can be achieved. Perhaps lighter and stronger materials could be used to allow different wing designs.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 44):
Storm in a teacup

Yes, it's just a 3 year research project. It's not spectacular to we widened the discussion to something more interesting.  Smile
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17051
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 15):
Would it be faster than the Concorde? Should be a lot more efficient though

The most logical thing to do is make it slower than Concorde, with a cruise speed between Mach 1.2 and 1.5. Staying under M1.5 spares the design a lot of materials, engine and aerodynamics issues.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
vivek0072
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:43 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:29 am

Japan has successfully tested an engine that can theoretically reach speeds of up to mach 5.5, or more than five times the speed of sound, the ministry said.

---- I do not get it, how do they test a theortical engine ?

The French side brings experience from the Concorde, the world's first and only supersonic commercial jet operated by Air France and British Airways, which flew at twice the speed of sound.

-- what about the Concordski , and the buisness jet built buy Gulfstream and Sukhoi together ?
That life's most failures were people who did not realise how close they were to success when they gave up. - Edison.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Japan, France To Jointly Develop Supersonic Plane

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 48):
I do not get it, how do they test a theortical engine

I assume the engine is real and has been tested to some degree but could theoretically be used at Mach 5.5.

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