lowecur
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FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:47 pm

Just a band-aid to see if this will keep the FAA happy. The airport does have quite a few corp jets, but a very limited number of RJ operations.

They will also build out the taxiways to 9L and add a secondary control tower in that area to help with traffic congestion. Commissioners said they will fight the FAA on using the crosswinds runway, but I believe that is a losing battle. That runway will be necessary when the season starts up again.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...740.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
 
NW747-400
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:53 pm

Adding a second control tower? That seems irregular, isn't it standard practice to just add a second local controller position in the existing tower?
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:02 pm

Faced with the worst travel delays in the nation, Broward County commissioners agreed Tuesday to meet federal aviation administrators halfway in expanding the use of secondary runways at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport."

"Under the compromise, regional and corporate jets would be allowed to use the short runway at the airport's southern end that has been limited to propeller planes."


Corporate jets have been using 9R/27L for months now. The turbojet restriction has already been removed from the A/FD, and the only restrictions now stand at aircraft with wingspan less than 78 feet and approach speed less than 121 knots. I have personally witnesses Lears and Citations using this runway, so I assume the major change to take place is relaxing the wingspan/approach speed restriction.

County aviation officials questioned whether the FAA could greatly reduce delays by using the emergency runway with the other two because it crosses them and cannot be used independently. Residents termed such use dangerous.

"They would be playing chicken with the passengers', pilots' and residents' lives," said Jack Hare, who lives off Riverland Road.


WHAT??? These types of operations are in use at hundreds of airports all the time! It's a perfectly safe operation that runs like clockwork, with both the controllers' and pilots' cooperation. There's no "chicken" involved; spacing is accomplished through the use of vectors to final and approach speed changes. If proper spacing is not accomplished, one can go around while the other lands; there's nothing difficult or dangerous about it. Apparently Jack Hare has never been to MIA, only some 20-30 miles to the south, where there are 4 runways undertaking this! I'm typing up the Letter to the Editor as we speak about this one.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
Just a band-aid to see if this will keep the FAA happy. The airport does have quite a few corp jets, but a very limited number of RJ operations.

Yeah, no kidding...opening up that runway to regional jets (which are very limited in number at FLL anyway) is the effective equivalent of putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
The airport does have quite a few corp jets, but a very limited number of RJ operations.

Keep in mind that the current congestion is with light corporate jets ALREADY using 9R/27L! But then again, runway expansion has always been a long and drawn-out process, so I'm slightly optimistic in that this is progress (albeit not a whole lot for the time being). This at least shows that the comission does have a soft spot when dealing with the FAA, so I'm sure that their firm stance on 13/31 will eventually crack too. Just give it time.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
deltaguy767
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 1):
Adding a second control tower? That seems irregular, isn't it standard practice to just add a second local controller position in the existing tower?

I agree with you, however the tower that is there right now at FLL may not have enough room for a Clearance delivery,Ground, and then 2 Local Controllers. I do not know a whole lot about FLL other than what is on this site as I live near BDL, but it would seem that the best way to fix things would be to extend rwy 9R/27L to the same length as rwy 9L/27R so that that runway would be able to handle RJ's safely as well as beefing up the taxiways to accommodate that Rwy extension. Also they could do what ATL is doing by adding a Rwy 10/28 or 8/26 to alleviate some of this congestion. However this seems like a political and administrative frenzy in which the FAA's and the Airport commission's solution might not be as pilot-friendly

Regards
DeltaGuy767 from BDL
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 5):
I agree with you, however the tower that is there right now at FLL may not have enough room for a Clearance delivery,Ground, and then 2 Local Controllers.

FLL does have two locals, 119.3 and 120.2 . This is not the issue at hand, so I don't know what they're thinking.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 5):
it would seem that the best way to fix things would be to extend rwy 9R/27L to the same length as rwy 9L/27R so that that runway would be able to handle RJ's safely as well as beefing up the taxiways to accommodate that Rwy extension.

9L is 9,000 X 150. Extending 9R to this would more than accomodate ALL of FLL's traffic, not just the RJs (which I wholeheartedly agree with).

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 5):
However this seems like a political and administrative frenzy in which the FAA's and the Airport commission's solution might not be as pilot-friendly

You nailed that one right on the head!

[Edited 2005-06-15 17:03:42]
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lowecur
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:04 am

Keep in mind that 9R extension approval will shut that runway down while under construction for 3 years starting in 2008. The diagonal will have to be used during that time period, so the residents might just as well get used to it. That's why I believe the FAA will start the process before the 2006 season.
 
lax44
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:10 am

I'm pretty sure DFW has 3 control towers. Two are used actively, while number 3 serves as backup/training.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:32 am

After doing some research, it appears that this entire remedy is a lost cause! Let me explain:

- 9R/27L's max weight is 30,000 lbs:

- A CRJ 200's empty weight is just over 30,000 lbs, so it's definitely out of the question.
- An ERJ 135's empty weight is close to 24,000 lbs, but load it with pax and fuel, and it's out of the question too!

The only way that I could find this to be realistic is if the 30,000 lb weight limit is just a buffered number from the real weight limit (for longevity of the runway). IIRC runway weight limits can sometimes be exceeded with the airport manager's approval. This may be one of those cases.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
lowecur
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 9):
After doing some research, it appears that this entire remedy is a lost cause! Let me explain:

- 9R/27L's max weight is 30,000 lbs:

Those are the limits set by the FAA according to some recent articles. The weight limit supposedly would be raised.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:29 am

Thats probably why the FAA is going to order the opening of the crosswind runway 13/31 in a few days/weeks. I forsee ATC using one runway as a departure runway and the other for arrivals. They'd be able to squeze more in since a go-around and a departure would not conflict.

Honestly, the people to blame here are the politicians and the local community. They moaned and complained for so long about extending the southern runway that they got their worst nightmare instead, the opening of the crosswind runway. They should've seen it coming.

I bet we will see some quick action on that southern runway extension here in a bit.

GreatChecko

PS: Anybody looking for a crashpad near FLL?  devil 
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hawk44
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
WHAT??? These types of operations are in use at hundreds of airports all the time! It's a perfectly safe operation that runs like clockwork, with both the controllers' and pilots' cooperation. There's no "chicken" involved; spacing is accomplished through the use of vectors to final and approach speed changes. If proper spacing is not accomplished, one can go around while the other lands;

They did this during the air and sea show to help with traffic and I must say it was fun to watch. I don't know what kind of strain it put on ATC but I did not notice any aircraft waiting around to take off like you usually see at FLL.

Hawk44
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PanAm747
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:34 am

You mean planes are actually going to USE the runway?

This is NOT what Henny Penny and her compatriots agreed to!! Planes might actually land - or even worse, TAKE-OFF on a runway? My God, can you imagine? Planes flying over people's houses? Oh, the humanity!! We might actually see or hear them!!

The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!! Won't somebody think of the children?

NIMBY's out there, did I miss any of your hysterical arguments?  duck 
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lowecur
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:10 am

The use of RJ's on 9R will be interesting. Most of them require a longer runway for takeoff than the 170/190 when fully loaded. It shouldn't be a problem landing them there, but takeoffs on a 5300' runway will be difficult for longer leg flts to the NE.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:03 am

PanAm747,

My favorite quote from the article is (regarding using 13/31, the crosswind runway):

"They would be playing chicken with the passengers', pilots' and residents' lives," said Jack Hare, who lives off Riverland Road.

LaGuardia anyone?

If I knew there were so many aviation experts just south of FLL I would have gone there instead of college!

GreatChecko

PS: Just got a call from the Sun Sentinel, they are considering my letter to the editor for publication. Much yayness!  bouncy 
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727LOVER
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
This is NOT what Henny Penny and her compatriots agreed to!! Planes might actually land - or even worse, TAKE-OFF on a runway? My God, can you imagine? Planes flying over people's houses? Oh, the humanity!! We might actually see or hear them!!

The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!! Won't somebody think of the children?

NIMBY's out there, did I miss any of your hysterical arguments?

Gee, didn't a DC-3 just crash in a RESIDENTIAL area??????  Yeah sure Different airport, but same city...all over the local news.
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jetpixx
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:17 am

I think that this will improve things slightly - but there is still a long way to go. FLL does see a decent amount of RJ traffic, such as Chautauqua's numerous ERJ flights in the intra-Florida network, as well as flights to CMH, DAY, ORF, BNA, SDF, etc. There are not a lot - but I'd say it is likely 15-20 per day which helps. US also has a lot of CRJ flights, as well as Comair, etc. - so even if you move 30-40 flights over - as well as the AE ERJs and ATRs, that seems helpful to me, albeit the 'gunshot wound covered by a band-aid'. Something is better than nothing....
 
September11
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:29 am

interesting thread ....

Photos of FLL airport overview


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jay Selman
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan Kaskel



I see only three runways? It's really too bad that Ft. Lauderdale area grew too fast ... FLL could have been a bigger International airport, too late... kinda  brokenheart 
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DAL767400ER
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:26 am

Regardless of the weight limits, which can be considered a big problem that should be solved, it is not like there is alot of RJ flights. Delta alone currently offers a total of 34 daily RJ flights, which with the addition of TPA, JAX and RIC should go up to 44, plus whathever new routes DL might add from now on (EYW, GSP, AVL or other RJ cities served from MCO but not yet from FLL). Then you of course also have all the RJ flights added by US, the handful of AA AT7s, and all the commuter props which already use the runway anyway and occassionally the north runway as well. Banning all those small planes to the south sunway could actually help FLL on-time stats, though likely in no time that space on the north runway would be used for new mainline flights.

[Edited 2005-06-15 23:28:34]
 
A330323X
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 17):
US also has a lot of CRJ flights



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 19):
Then you of course also have all the RJ flights added by US

US has a grand total of 4 daily RJ flights at FLL.  Yeah sure
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 20):
US has a grand total of 4 daily RJ flights at FLL.

Didn't US plane to add some 10 daily flights, or am I confusing press releases? And no need to roll eyes.
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
"They would be playing chicken with the passengers', pilots' and residents' lives," said Jack Hare, who lives off Riverland Road.

WHAT??? These types of operations are in use at hundreds of airports all the time! It's a perfectly safe operation that runs like clockwork, with both the controllers' and pilots' cooperation.

Here Here! These NIMBYS are such aviation experts! Big grin...they should join A.net and enlighten us. I mean, at least do some (blank)in research...and go visit LGA whilt your at it. I know NIMBYs can be a pain for airports, but the NIMBYs here at FLL are INSANE and never actually do research! (And the people in City Hall/County Hall don't help much either)

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 3):
Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
Just a band-aid to see if this will keep the FAA happy. The airport does have quite a few corp jets, but a very limited number of RJ operations.

Yeah, no kidding...opening up that runway to regional jets (which are very limited in number at FLL anyway) is the effective equivalent of putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

Yep...any progress is improvement...but still, the FAA will be happier.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 5):
but it would seem that the best way to fix things would be to extend rwy 9R/27L to the same length as rwy 9L/27R so that that runway would be able to handle RJ's safely

If only it could be done...if only!

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 11):
Honestly, the people to blame here are the politicians and the local community. They moaned and complained for so long about extending the southern runway that they got their worst nightmare instead, the opening of the crosswind runway. They should've seen it coming.

BINGO...WELCOME TO MY RESPECTED USERS LIST! I'll keep my eyes peeled to the letters to the editor.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 16):
Gee, didn't a DC-3 just crash in a RESIDENTIAL area?????? Different airport, but same city...all over the local news.

Oh, and it came out that the NIMBYs complained about FXE's DC-3s! They were "too low" and "too loud"...they even had the FAA change the flight path....YOU LIVE 5 MINUTES FROM AN AIRPORT, do you expect it to be the most peaceful place on Earth? I'm sorry, but when you signed that contract you knew what you were getting into. I can't even give you a courtesy tear for this one!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
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jetpixx
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 20):
US has a grand total of 4 daily RJ flights at FLL.

Sorry - my mistake - I was thinking the flights to FPO and NAS were CRJ - they are DH8 instead. Gee, if we could only be as smart as A330323X and have the entire US timetable memorized.

I think I'll quit my job tomorrow and start working on memorizing all of the timetables, starting with AB Airlines and Abaco Air, since it appears they are first alphabetically.

I don't mind being corrected when I am wrong, but don't be an a-hole about it.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 21):
Didn't US plane to add some 10 daily flights, or am I confusing press releases? And no need to roll eyes.

You were right - US did add a lot of flights - some with CRJs. I believe the intra-Florida service to TPA was CRJ service, but that has since been cancelled. Geez, DAL767400ER - what's the matter with you? You might get a rude - do a search or get eyes rolled at you for asking such an unintelligent question! (Dripping with sarcasm....)
 
MAH4546
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 23):

Sorry - my mistake - I was thinking the flights to FPO and NAS were CRJ - they are DH8 instead.

US Airways does not fly between Fort Lauderdale and the Bahamas, they codeshare with Bahamasair.
a.
 
Vortex
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:49 am

The problem with these NIMBYs is that they bought a house near an already existing airport. HELLO! McFly
 
hawk44
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:01 am

Just for everybody's info today at around 2:30 FLL was using the cross runway but went back to the normal routine shortly after.


Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
deltaguy767
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 11):
Thats probably why the FAA is going to order the opening of the crosswind runway 13/31 in a few days/weeks. I forsee ATC using one runway as a departure runway and the other for arrivals. They'd be able to squeze more in since a go-around and a departure would not conflict.

However arrivals on 13/31 would have to perform LAHSO for clearance for departures on 9L/27R and likewise for 9L/27R for arrivals on 13/31, that's why the best solution would be to build a new parallel runway (i.e.10/28 or 8/26 like ATL is doing) and then extend 9R/27Lto 9500 ft to have three parallel rwys. 1 for deps. 1 for arrivals and 1 to be interchangeable to accommodate traffic flow at Local's descression. I believe that the situation at FLL is quite a mess and perhaps a study should be done by an agency with no connections to the airlines or the FAA or the city of FLL and take whatever they say into consideration.

Regards from BDL where traffic is always light
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
cschleic
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:14 pm

But maybe most importantly for some a.netters out there....what would use of the crosswind mean for viewing from the viewing lot?  Big grin
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 27):
that's why the best solution would be to build a new parallel runway (i.e.10/28 or 8/26 like ATL is doing) and then extend 9R/27Lto 9500 ft to have three parallel rwys. 1 for deps. 1 for arrivals and 1 to be interchangeable to accommodate traffic flow at Local's descression.

DeltaGuy767: Understand that at FLL the "best solution" can't be done. This is why FLL has to use what is available to its maximum potential here. The NIMBYS MAY allow 13/31 use, but they will NEVER accept a new runway...they're having a hard enough time with 9R/27L expansion here!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: FLL Opens South Runway To RJs

Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 27):
However arrivals on 13/31 would have to perform LAHSO for clearance for departures on 9L/27R and likewise for 9L/27R for arrivals on 13/31

The more likely possiblility is that the timing of takeoffs and landings would be done in such a way to minimize the use of LAHSO. It would be nearly impossible to use for airliners on 9R/27L; it bisects the runway.

In any case LAHSO of 9L/27R really isn't that big of a deal anyways because 13/31 ends just after 9L/27R.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"