jumbojet
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Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:21 pm

Just curious, why arent there any Delta 777's from JFK. I believe there is one from the CVG hub and the rest from ATL. Aren't there any European routes from JFK that woule warrant the 777? Or why not apply for Asian routes from JFK and use the 777.

Curiously yours,

steve
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:55 pm

JFK does occasionally see the B777-200 operating to Europe. I am not sure on this but each year Delta chooses one of their European destinations being served by the 767-300 and upgrades the route to the B777-200 for the summer season.

To my knowledge this year it is MXP/FCO.

The 777 might be seen this summer flying JFK-MXP or JFK-FCO.

For a while I think the B777 was scheduled on some flights out of JFK.


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From the New York area the Asian market is a competing one with ANA, JAL, AA, CO, and UA, I don't know if it would be wise for DL to try to get into that one and end up possibly the loser.
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tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:45 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
From the New York area the Asian market is a competing one with ANA, JAL, AA, CO, and UA, I don't know if it would be wise for DL to try to get into that one and end up possibly the loser.

It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days. And DL has tried twice, unsuccessfully to be given the authority to serve China from New York. CO was awarded EWR-PEK which just comenced yesterday if Im not mistaken.

[Edited 2005-06-16 11:46:06]

[Edited 2005-06-16 11:46:40]
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:01 pm

JFK hasn't seen a regular DL 777 in years. Last year's visits where only for some flights to ATH in time for the Summer Olympics.
The 777 fleet is based completely at ATL. The only non-ATL flight is CVG-CDG, though that plane is usually routed ATL-CDG-CVG-CDG-ATL. Having all 777s based at the same airport allows to save costs compared to having them based at JFK as well. Also, ATL is the airport that demands the capacity of the 777, because on most routes DL is the sole carrier out of ATL, whereas on the high-capacity routes out of JFK for them (CDG, MXP, FCO; AMS still waiting) they have one of their Skyteam partners to put pax on if their own flight is full. It's all about efficiency. And before you ask, DL cannot route a 777 ATL-CDG-JFK-CDG-ATL as with CVG, because both JFK flights continue on to India, and the deman isn't there to warrant a 777.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:04 pm

They just don't have enough 777's to be able to warrant the operations of all the flights you guys are talking about. It sure would be nice to see more coming once Delta gets back on their feet.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:12 pm

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 4):
It sure would be nice to see more coming once Delta gets back on their feet.
Regards

I don't think we're going to see that honestly. I think the 787 is a much better aircraft for DL. DL really doesn't need an aircaft as heavy and expensive as the 777 for most of its int'l flights to Europe. They do very well with the 763ER's. The economics, efficiencies, capacity and potential pax comfort of the 787 are a much better match for DL's needs. When DL is in position to order them, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see DL dispose of its T7's altogether.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ord
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
And DL has tried twice, unsuccessfully to be given the authority to serve China from New York.

Delta never tried to serve China from New York. Their first request was for nonstop flights from Portland, and the application was later switched to Cincinnati. Their second, and more recent, request was for a nonstop from Atlanta.

Also, Delta did fly JFK-Tokyo nonstop for a short time but pulled the route.
 
panamair
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:54 pm

Quoting ORD (Reply 6):
Delta never tried to serve China from New York

Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.
 
positiverate
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:04 pm

ORD: Delta still flies ATL-NRT. DL 55 daily...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:21 pm

It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days.

It's much easier and better for them to codeshare with NW, as they do.

The last scheduled Delta 777 out of JFK was in the summer of 2002 on JFK-CDG (the other flight was operated by an MD11 I believe). As mentioned, last summer saw some special flights for the Olympics in Athens. As far as I know, there are no scheduled 777s out of JFK this summer.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 8):
ORD: Delta still flies ATL-NRT. DL 55 daily...

He never said anything about ATL-NRT. Read again:

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 6):
Also, Delta did fly JFK-Tokyo nonstop for a short time but pulled the route.
 
bucky707
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:38 pm

"The economics, efficiencies, capacity and potential pax comfort of the 787 are a much better match for DL's needs. When DL is in position to order them, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see DL dispose of its T7's altogether."



actually, you are right on the money. From what I have been told, Delta will move toward a fleet with two types.......the 737 and 787.
 
srbmod
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:40 pm

Back when DL operated JFK-NRT, they used the MD-11, as at the time, the MD-11 were assigned to all US-Japan flights, with some European flights, a few domestic legs out of ATL, and was the MD-11 used on the short-lived flights from JFK to the Middle East?

Up until the latter part of 2000, DL used to do a ATL-MCO-JFK-MCO-ATL run using the 777 until they replaced the mainline JFK-MCO flight with Delta Express. One day just for the heck of it, I flew ATL-MCO-JFK-ATL, with the first two segments being on the 777. They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:53 pm

They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges.

At JFK?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ord
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.

You are correct, my mistake. Delta proposed flying from both JFK and CVG nonstop to China but lost out in the awards in early 2001.
 
panamair
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 12):
and was the MD-11 used on the short-lived flights from JFK to the Middle East?

Yes, DL started JFK-TLV and JFK-CAI-DXB flights in the Summer of 2001 using MD11s - unfortunately these were suspended right after 9/11.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 12):
They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges

Must have been an isolated case. I flew the 777 JFK-CDG quite a bit and always departed from a gate (usually gates 5,6,or 14 at Terminal 3). However, on arrival -it was always a tow-in situation even at the biggest gates (i.e., 5,6,14).
 
gigneil
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.

Well, not exactly.

I think it was ATL-JFK-PEK and ATL-CVG-PVG or vice versa with some changing of the destination based on the day.

N
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days.

It's much easier and better for them to codeshare with NW, as they do.

It might be easier at the moment...but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia. With the growth of businesses and population in China specifically...DL absolutely needs to make a go of it with its own metal.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
tsnamm
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 17):
but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia.

DL used to have a fair amount of Asian destinations when it had a hub in PDX...I think they ran to NGO/KIX/NRT/HKG/TPE/SEL from PDX....the HKG route was moved to LAX...I'm not sure what happened to the rest...
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 17):
It might be easier at the moment...but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia. With the growth of businesses and population in China specifically...DL absolutely needs to make a go of it with its own metal.

DL's problem with Asia is still the lack of a decent hub for Asian service. ATL is way too far and out of the way for the vast majority of pax, and CVG and SLC could never support the flights based on their weak O&D traffic. If DL were to expand in Asia, JFK might be the best choice, or possibly a new build-up at LAX. The other option would be to add NRT from its hubs and focus cities, and let NW carry the pax from NRT to other Asian destinations.
 
ord
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 18):
...I think they ran to NGO/KIX/NRT/HKG/TPE/SEL from PDX....the HKG route was moved to LAX.

I don't believe HKG was ever served from PDX. The initial HKG flight went LAX-ANC-HKG. Later it was served nonstop from LAX.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DL's problem with Asia is still the lack of a decent hub for Asian service. ATL is way too far and out of the way for the vast majority of pax, and CVG and SLC could never support the flights based on their weak O&D traffic. If DL were to expand in Asia, JFK might be the best choice, or possibly a new build-up at LAX. The other option would be to add NRT from its hubs and focus cities, and let NW carry the pax from NRT to other Asian destinations.

I couldn't agree with you more. In keeping with the idea of DL flying their own metal, I think JFK would be the best option. There is really no limit to the number of cities that DL can serve from NYC, both domestic and Int'l. AA and DL both slept on JFK and let LGA and EWR dominate domestic traffic in NYC. Then, in comes B6 which stimulated a ton of traffic at JFK. DL is growing JFK, but they need to grow it more and dominate (easier said than done, I know). I think they need to make JFK another hub.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 21):
I couldn't agree with you more. In keeping with the idea of DL flying their own metal, I think JFK would be the best option. There is really no limit to the number of cities that DL can serve from NYC, both domestic and Int'l. AA and DL both slept on JFK and let LGA and EWR dominate domestic traffic in NYC. Then, in comes B6 which stimulated a ton of traffic at JFK. DL is growing JFK, but they need to grow it more and dominate (easier said than done, I know). I think they need to make JFK another hub.

Definitely. I'd like to see DL continue to expand JFK domestically, and also to Latin America and Europe. As far as Asia is concened, JFK is probably the best bet. However, DL has never been strong in Asia.

I wonder if it might make sense for DL to focus on the Atlantic, which has always been its strong-suit. Rather than trying to compete in Asia with everyone else, how about adding back some of the old PanAm destinations, and even starting Africa? DL would be in a great position to leverage it's ATL and JFK operations. They could add ARN, VIE, DUS, HAM, GVA, LYN, LEN, CPH, PRG, etc. It would also be great to see them bring back TLV, CAI, and DXB. They could also lead the way and add JNB, CPT, or LOS with some 787's a few years down the road.

While I agree that it would really cool to see DL expand in Asia, the location of their hubs would be ideal to expand Europe and be a leader in Africa ...
 
panamair
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:31 am

The problem with DL expanding to those secondary European destinations is the lack of suitable a/c. The 763ER which is their primary transatlantic a/c is too large on a year-round basis for some of these destinations (the only way CO can make OSL,HAM, etc. work is with the 752 and the 762). Also the transatlantic is brutally competitive and is more or less a mature market. DL is now seriously looking at South America once again (e.g., applying to start JFK-EZE) but that market is notoriously volatile (comes and goes depending on the economic situation) and still subjected to restrictive air service agreements which limit the number of carriers/flights (e.g., Argentina and Brazil)
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:20 am

DL to this point, has an extensive flight schedule from JFK. The European routes closely rival that of ATL Why not add from JFK? after all, how many millions of people live in the metro area?

As I understand it, DL can apply for Asian routes again in 2007. I am sure there gonna do there homework to decide what is there best course of action to come out the winner, even if it means Asian routes from JFK
 
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STT757
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 24):
Why not add from JFK? after all, how many millions of people live in the metro area?

Their JFK facilities are quite antiquated by today's standards and would not be able to handle more traffic, they would need to invest atleast $1 Billion in a new facility to better organize and provide services for their customers.

That's money they don't have, also ATL is going to be in need of some renovations and expansion in the coming years. DL would be wise to consolidate their efforts in ATL with regards to improving and expanding their physical plant than to try to catch up with CO, AA and B6 in NYC.

The airline landscape is changing (for better or for worse) and DL is probably going to be involved some way some how in near future, better to concentrate their efforts at bringing up the quality of the experience travelers who transit DL's ATL facitlites (probably 90% of their business flows through ATL) experience and wait for something else to happen with regards to a Northeast hub.

In the mean time their LGA terminal is in desperate need of replacement, they can probably get something built there that their business clients would really appreciate for a fraction of the price a new International JFK hub would cost.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
also ATL is going to be in need of some renovations and expansion in the coming years.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
better to concentrate their efforts at bringing up the quality of the experience travelers who transit DL's ATL facitlites (probably 90% of their business flows through ATL) experience

The good thing is that most of the construction done at ATL is being paid for by the airport, not DL  Wink . And there are already alot of upgrades going on. For example on International Concourse E, moving sidewalks are finally being added on the arrivals level (something that should have been there when the concourse opened, IMHO), as well as having added 3 security lines after immigration an re-check-in, to allow for more pax to be controlled in less time. North Concourse C is also receiving a big-time makeover, with new flooring and other stuff. The TSA baggage screening construction is also almost over, and HJIA-authority will constantly upgrade parts of the terminal area throughout 2012.
And once the new International Terminal, as well as new Concourse F, opens, lines will be even shorter, and finally there will be new gates available during the Euro-rush hour (ca. 4pm-6pm), allowing DL to add more flights.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
Their JFK facilities are quite antiquated by today's standards and would not be able to handle more traffic, they would need to invest atleast $1 Billion in a new facility to better organize and provide services for their customers.

$1.6 billion was the sum mentioned back in the summer of 2001 when DL announced their plans for a brand-new 46-gate facility at JFK, with T2 being rebuilt to a mainly Delta Connection terminal (26 gates), and T3 being torn down and replaced by another concourse off Terminal 4 (20 widebody gates).
Was to have been awesome, probably even putting AA terminal 8 to shame, but 9/11 killed that project. Unfortunately, I have never even seen any drawing of what the terminal would have looked like  Sad .
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
Their JFK facilities are quite antiquated by today's standards and would not be able to handle more traffic, they would need to invest atleast $1 Billion in a new facility to better organize and provide services for their customers.

That's money they don't have, also ATL is going to be in need of some renovations and expansion in the coming years. DL would be wise to consolidate their efforts in ATL with regards to improving and expanding their physical plant than to try to catch up with CO, AA and B6 in NYC.

The airline landscape is changing (for better or for worse) and DL is probably going to be involved some way some how in near future, better to concentrate their efforts at bringing up the quality of the experience travelers who transit DL's ATL facitlites (probably 90% of their business flows through ATL) experience and wait for something else to happen with regards to a Northeast hub.

I agree that JFK is very much in need of being upgraded. But I disagree that DL needs to put all its eggs in the big basket that is ATL (again). DL owns ATL and its not going anywhere anytime soon. They need to spread their operation more. NYC is the most important aviation market...period. DL is a big player in this market, but they need to dominate it more.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
N62NA
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
In the mean time their LGA terminal is in desperate need of replacement, they can probably get something built there that their business clients would really appreciate for a fraction of the price a new International JFK hub would cost.

They share their LGA terminal with NW, yes? I thought that was one of those "new" terminals built on the east end of the airport. How old is the DL terminal at LGA?
 
klwright69
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 27):
but they need to dominate it more.

This is a nice thought, but it's easier said than done. JFK has been so problematic for DL. And I honestly can't understand why. Maybe someone can explain. DL's JFK-DEN service has been on and off for god only knows how long. While JetBlue came storming in to that market. And DEN's an important market from NYC. CO cleans up on EWR-TLV. DL's TLV never worked out.

I went through DL's JFK terminal in 1997. Is it still that dowdy Pan Am Worldport terminal?? I know it's still using the same structure but has it been updated at all??
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 29):
This is a nice thought, but it's easier said than done. JFK has been so problematic for DL. And I honestly can't understand why. Maybe someone can explain. DL's JFK-DEN service has been on and off for god only knows how long. While JetBlue came storming in to that market. And DEN's an important market from NYC. CO cleans up on EWR-TLV. DL's TLV never worked out.

I went through DL's JFK terminal in 1997. Is it still that dowdy Pan Am Worldport terminal?? I know it's still using the same structure but has it been updated at all??

I agree with you...I haven't the slightest idea why they can't seem to make things work at JFK. DL is a household name in NYC and has been for a long time. I just don't get it,
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:45 am

I haven't the slightest idea why they can't seem to make things work at JFK.

What makes you think things aren't working? Delta has a huge amount of transatlantic flights from JFK...Not as much as CO at EWR, but still more than most US carriers.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Delta4eva
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 29):
I went through DL's JFK terminal in 1997. Is it still that dowdy Pan Am Worldport terminal?? I know it's still using the same structure but has it been updated at all??

IIRC, didn't Delta announce updates for JFK a couple of years back after the new terminal was put on hold? Other than that, I don't think any upgrades have been put in place yet.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):
What makes you think things aren't working? Delta has a huge amount of transatlantic flights from JFK...Not as much as CO at EWR, but still more than most US carriers.

I agree w/ you. Many people underestimate the number of flights DL has out of JFK. Delta still has the most flights from JFK to Europe than any other airline. I think that if DL is awarded JFK-EZE, then they will continue to expand from JFK to South America.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
klwright69
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):
What makes you think things aren't working? Delta has a huge amount of transatlantic flights from JFK.

You are right. But as I said, I don't understand why some routes don't some to work out that clearly OUGHT to be a good fit. I gave two examples. Obviously I am not the only one that has the impression, TinPusher does as well. Maybe DL gives the impression the don't have the same momentum B6 and CO have. B6 is riding high at JFK. And as you well said, CO seems to be leaving DL behind in transatlantic department. And to an extent AA. AA is building that new terminal.

I give DL credit for utilizing PA's old assets at JFK. Keeping and maintaining service to places like Athens, Moscow, Istanbul, Nice, along with the transatlantic regulars. I flew to IST long ago on JFK, and on PA before that. Under the old PA, the IST flight was number 72 (on PA it was via FRA of course though). I believe it is still #72 on DL to this day. Pretty cool.

This is unlike UA. They took over PA's strength to Latin America, and totally squandered it. Shame!
 
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STT757
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 26):
$1.6 billion was the sum mentioned back in the summer of 2001 when DL announced their plans for a brand-new 46-gate facility at JFK, with T2 being rebuilt to a mainly Delta Connection terminal (26 gates), and T3 being torn down and replaced by another concourse off Terminal 4 (20 widebody gates).

The DL plan had called for no new structures at all, no new buildings.

They were going to renovate T-2 (why Lord only knows) and add some RJ gates, they were then going to tear down T-3 and put a aircraft hardstand there. Basically a place to park planes when they are not doing anything, for cleaning/catering etc..

They would then transfer their International flights to T-4's Western Concourse, the one closest to T-3. They would take over the entire West Concourse of T-4 and expand it by about 6 gates, for a total of about 16 gates in the West Concourse of T-4.

The airlines who are currently operating out of T-4's Western concourse would move to an expanded Eastern concourse, T-4 currently only has 16 gates. The DL project would expand that to about 30, with half of T-4's gates for DL.

So the plan was to renovate T-2 and move in to an expanded T-4 with DL in the West Concourse and the International carriers in the East concourse, the concession folks would have loved it because DL's operation would have brought some more desperately needed foot traffic to T-4 which has a fancy retail concourse which is half vacant and loosing money.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 26):
$1.6 billion was the sum mentioned back in the summer of 2001 when DL announced their plans for a brand-new 46-gate facility at JFK, with T2 being rebuilt to a mainly Delta Connection terminal (26 gates), and T3 being torn down and replaced by another concourse off Terminal 4 (20 widebody gates).
Was to have been awesome, probably even putting AA terminal 8 to shame, but 9/11 killed that project. Unfortunately, I have never even seen any drawing of what the terminal would have looked like

Again it was different than AA's JFK project because they were not building any new structures, rather renovating T-2 and moving into an expanded T-4.
The NY Times at the time had a rendering in the Metro section, but there was nothing spectacular because the plan was not to build anything rather renovate T-2 and expand the Western portion of T-4.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 27):
But I disagree that DL needs to put all its eggs in the big basket that is ATL (again). DL owns ATL and its not going anywhere anytime soon. They need to spread their operation more.

DL's ATL operation is almost a true "Global" hub, Emirates would kill to have something like ATL. They should invest every penny into making ATL a premier facility and expand more Internationaly and Domestically, they would be able to easily link one International Destination to another, a Domestic-International or Domestic-Domestic route pairs.
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STT757
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 32):
IIRC, didn't Delta announce updates for JFK a couple of years back after the new terminal was put on hold? Other than that, I don't think any upgrades have been put in place yet.

They are going to spend $300 Million to upgrade the HVAC, and baggage systems.
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tsnamm
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 29):
DL's TLV never worked out.

DL code shares with El Al...so they can use their own assets elsewhere...
 
jhooper
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:05 pm

I believe DL still only has 8 B777 jets (7001-7008). With 3 of them needed for the ATL-NRT service, that only leaves 5 for the rest of the runs to Europe, which naturally limits their options. The 763 is still their International backbone.
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jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:34 pm

Delta can next apply for Asian routes in 2007 I believe. If they are awarded them in 2007, and if they apply for these routes from JFK, which by the way, some of you think they should do (including myself), then its obvious that the 777 would come back to JFK.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
DL's ATL operation is almost a true "Global" hub, Emirates would kill to have something like ATL. They should invest every penny into making ATL a premier facility and expand more Internationaly and Domestically, they would be able to easily link one International Destination to another, a Domestic-International or Domestic-Domestic route pairs.

This is very true and I agree with you. But DL's dominant position on ATL is secure for the moment and though facilities could use a face-lift, they are not nearly as horrid as JFK. Neither of DL's other hubs at CVG and SLC have a lot of local traffic, certainly no where near NYC. ATL is the backbone of just about everything for DL and they need a larger hub operation in another large city (other than ATL) with a large metropolitan population.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):
What makes you think things aren't working? Delta has a huge amount of transatlantic flights from JFK...Not as much as CO at EWR, but still more than most US carriers.



Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 32):
I agree w/ you. Many people underestimate the number of flights DL has out of JFK. Delta still has the most flights from JFK to Europe than any other airline.

I am mainly speaking of domestic flghts. For example JFK-DEN, JFK-SAN, JFK-PHX. DL does well on int'l flights out of JFK and has many, I am well aware. It is the domestic flights that they seem to try and fail on so often.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:40 pm

STT757, thanks for the exact info. I haven't read anything on the plans in 4 years, so my memory was a bit sketchy on the details  Silly .
 
klwright69
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 29):
JFK has been so problematic for DL.

If DL is serious in serving Asia from JFK in the near future, they would have kept NRT. That seems like a no-brainer. When CO decided to start Asia service from EWR, they viewed NRT as a starting point, not an afterthought.
 
panamair
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:24 am

While the NYC area is a large market for Asia (and hence the belief that DL should start JFK-Asia flights), it is also a lot more competitive with many other airlines offering direct flights. DL figured that with ATL, they would at least have a niche (and in the case with the PRC route case, offer a new gateway as well as access to the SE U.S.).

If ATL-Asia is truly such a silly idea (as many said when DL applied for ATL-PEK), then how does DL's ATL-NRT manage to maintain over 80% load factors on a year-round basis? Also, why would KE upgrade ATL-ICN to a 744 from a 772? The conventional wisdom is that the Chinese are nowhere near the SE USA and there is no demand for SE USA - China service but there are sizeable populations of Chinese in the most unlikely places (Ecuador, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Cost Rica, Tonga, etc.)...As China continues to grow, it will only be a matter of time before they grow in numbers in the SE and ATL-PEK/PVG becomes a viable option...As much as I would like to see DL fly everywhere from JFK, I think DL can make it work better from ATL first...
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 42):
If DL is serious in serving Asia from JFK in the near future, they would have kept NRT. That seems like a no-brainer

Is Delta kicking themselves today for giving up all these past Asian routes they had? and also, it seems that this quote has some validity to it:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 43):
If ATL-Asia is truly such a silly idea (as many said when DL applied for ATL-PEK), then how does DL's ATL-NRT manage to maintain over 80% load factors on a year-round basis? Also, why would KE upgrade ATL-ICN to a 744 from a 772?

Maybe the next time around (in 2007) DL will come out ahead for more Asia routes.

steve
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 43):
Also, why would KE upgrade ATL-ICN to a 744 from a 772?

I support your argument but as far as KE is concerned that might have something to do with being a Skyteam member and codeshare partner on the route...especially since DL does not serve this route on its own.
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airzim
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:30 am

People are this forum are way too naive about alliances and code shares. Do you think for one minute that if DL was going to make money on a JFK-TLV route they wouldn't fly it themselves?

Alliances are an illusion of partnership.
 
avek00
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RE: Why No Delta 777's From JFK

Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:55 am

ATL-NRT works because 1) the greatest demand for Southeast USA/Latin America - Asia travel is to Japan, and 2) a MIA-NRT nonstop does not yet exist.
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